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Dynasty Maker [3483]
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I have mostly stayed out of the baseball discussion...
Apr 29, 2012, 2:10 PM
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I have mostly stayed out of the baseball discussion that I occasionally read on here for much the same reason I don't read or post on Tigernet as much as I used to... because most of the posts are short-sighted (retrospectively and/or prospectively) and full of whining. It's not a fun world to live it when you live and die by the outcome of a one-run 13 inning game. I love Clemson and Clemson baseball in particular. I'm disappointed in this season to some extent, but not as much as 2008 and I'm not ready to commit program suicide by firing/forcing out another legend like we did in Men's Soccer, Men's Tennis, and Men's Track.
I'm posting now mainly because I'm tired of seeing the comments that this program has been in decline since Jack took over. That is simply untrue and has ZERO basis in facts. Also that idea that our peak was when Wilheim left the program is untrue - unless your sole measurement for what determines a peak is ACC championships and you don't want to consider the change in competitiveness of the league over that time. Unlike some people that want to throw out random statements based on what happened in the last two baseball games of a 60+ game season, I'm prepared with some facts to back up the falsehood of the "constant decline" statement.
Here are Clemson's top 5 and bottom five years under Jack based on final ranking and tourney progression:
Top 5 (in rough order): 2002, 1996, 2010, 2006, 2000
Bottom 5: 2008, 2003, 1997, 2004. 2012 will likely be similar to 2003 or 1997.
How do you see decline in that? The best and worse years are all over the place. The best years are definitely not concentrated in the early years (in fact only one of his best 5 seasons are "Wilheim's players" and that one was his THIRD year after Wilheim, so more of his own players). The worst 5 are not concentrated in the latter years - in fact all of them were 1-2 years after one of the top 5 seasons (consistent with a turnover in experience).
Average rank in Leggett's first 6 seasons (one excluded for NR) is 11th. Average rank in Leggett's middle 6 seasons (one excluded for NR) is 12th. Average rank in Leggett's most recent 6 seasons (one excluded for NR) is 11th. That's Collegiate Baseball. If you prefer Baseball America, it's 11th, 14th, and 13th. Seems consistent to me, not a constant decline.
Average progress in playoffs in first 6 seasons is equivalent of Super Regional. Average progress in playoffs in most recent 6 seasons is Super Regional. Again, fairly consistent and not a constant decline.
I hate the fact that in our 7 great (top 10) seasons out of 18 under Leggett we haven't managed to win a championship, but we have THREE final four-equivalents (1996, 2002, and 2010 - another stat not showing decline). I hate the fact that Tanner and Company has been able to have the perfect storm two years in a row to win it. However, I also don't like when people's whining includes things that aren't true like that our program is in decline. It gives a false impression to recruits and fans in general.
This team is YOUNG and a cycle off of our great 2010 team. If the pattern that has held true for the past 18 years CONSISTENTLY holds true again, then 2013 will be a good year and 2014 will be an outstanding year. I expect that. If we're unranked in one or both of those then come back and tell me that we are in decline - but at this point all the evidence says we are the model of consistency.
GO TIGERS. BEAT TECH!
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110%er [6938]
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Re: The program has not been in decline since Jack has
Apr 29, 2012, 2:13 PM
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been here but it has for the last few years.
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Orange Blooded [4098]
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Re: The program has not been in decline since Jack has
Apr 29, 2012, 2:14 PM
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certainly the last 10 years!! did U forget 2002!!
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Dynasty Maker [3483]
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Again, facts please
Apr 29, 2012, 2:23 PM
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I can't find a way to even manipulate the statistics to say there is any more than a 3 year decline at any one time - and that is cyclical after most of our outstanding years. Including all 3 of our CWS Semifinals. All that is evidence of is that we struggle a bit with young teams when an outstanding group of experienced players leave.
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Orange Elite [5132]
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Facts screw up arguments though***
Apr 29, 2012, 2:29 PM
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Dynasty Maker [3483]
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Please give me some facts to support that statement
Apr 29, 2012, 2:18 PM
[ in reply to Re: The program has not been in decline since Jack has ] |
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Because I can't find them. If you are looking at a 3 year period then yes, we have declined in a 3 year period. But we also did in the three year period from 1996-1998, 2002-2004, and 2006-2008. Pretty much the two years after each of our best years there is a decline.
If you would like to research and tell me that even 25% of Final Four teams in baseball, basketball, or any other very competitive sport DON'T have a decline after that accomplishment, I'd be happy to honor your argument. However, the facts don't support any sort of prolonged decline for Clemson. It is purely cyclical.
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110%er [6938]
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Re: We may have not fared that well during those yrs. but
Apr 29, 2012, 2:21 PM
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the last few classes of recruits have stunk.
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Dynasty Maker [3483]
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So now your argument is recruits not performance
Apr 29, 2012, 2:24 PM
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So therefore Leggett must be a great coach because he has maintained consistent performance despite a "decline" in recruiting (which I'm sure is no more based in facts than the supposed "decline" in performance)
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110%er [6938]
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Re: Yes, I think he does a better job of coaching than he
Apr 29, 2012, 2:32 PM
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does of getting consistent good recruiting classes. You can't make silk purses out of sows ears.
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Orange Elite [5132]
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Where do you get your data showing our decline on recruiting
Apr 29, 2012, 2:39 PM
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Please list what recruiting rankings you use that show our decline in talent and rankings over the years.
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110%er [6938]
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Re: on the field performance. Where else?***
Apr 29, 2012, 2:40 PM
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Orange Elite [5132]
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So basically you're using no facts just going on opinion?***
Apr 29, 2012, 2:41 PM
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Orange Blooded [4098]
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110%er [6938]
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Re:As blind as a bat.***
Apr 29, 2012, 2:52 PM
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Orange Elite [5132]
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Young and inexperienced is a lot different than talentless
Apr 29, 2012, 2:56 PM
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We started almost a new team this year. We've been making progress, albeit not as quickly as I would like. We'll be very good next year with the core of this team coming back.
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110%er [6938]
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Re: These kids have been playing for years (except for
Apr 29, 2012, 3:06 PM
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Wilkinson who quit baseball for awhile) and most don't have it. Ww got lucky with Brittle because of a coaching change at his former school but there's a lot to be desired in some of the others. That's all I am going to say other than JL needs to get him some asst. coaches and hell no, I don't want it . I just want to see this program get back on its feet and we have a long way to go
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Orange Elite [5132]
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Being on the team and playing are 2 different things
Apr 29, 2012, 3:22 PM
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The only player that had seen significant PT for more than 1 year coming into this season was Shaffer. Stolz, Kiemboom, and Pohl all were coming off their 1st year as starters last year. Brittle was a bench guy at CoC. Most of the lineup is seeing their first extensive playing time. Pitching wise same thing. Leone was the only guy that had a full year of being a starter. The other guys that had experience only had a handful of innings. If you don't get that you'll probably be shocked to see where people will pick this team to be next year!
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110%er [6938]
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Re: If we don't get some help, We know where we will be.***
Apr 29, 2012, 3:24 PM
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Orange Elite [5132]
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We'll be fine, you'll see***
Apr 29, 2012, 3:25 PM
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Die-Hard [8977]
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Typically...
Apr 29, 2012, 3:25 PM
[ in reply to Re: Yes, I think he does a better job of coaching than he ] |
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Clemson doesn't sign lots of kids in its signing classes and that affects where they're ranked. Then when some of them don't show up, the ranking suffers, as does the performance on the field. Do you remember that Jackson Whitley, a first baseman from North Augusta, didn't show up but signed with the Angels as a 13th round draft pick last summer? Maybe if he'd showed up then Clemson wouldn't have to play that horrible Yankee (in your world) Jon McGibbon. What good did it do Clemson to sign Madison Younginer, who's from Mauldin? Who has contributed more to Clemson, Younginer or McGibbon? I really don't care where somebody goes to HS as long as he shows up. And there are kids in other states that grow up Clemson fans. On that list would be Herman Demmink, Daniel Moskos, Wilson Boyd, and Kyle Bailey this year. Should he not sign "Clemson guys" that live out-of-state?
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110%er [6938]
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Re: I would like to see more concentration on SC players as
Apr 29, 2012, 3:30 PM
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it can only help but get in guys who can play from wherever. Again, if you can't get them in a Clemson uniform you have just spun your wheels and lost out to someone else , whether another school or the pros. Every school has to contend with this.
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Orange Elite [5132]
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What's funny is to me one of the perks of being considered
Apr 29, 2012, 3:33 PM
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a great program is the fact that you can go out and recruit nationally. As our football team has been improving our recruiting trails are getting bigger, but I want to get to the point where we can get whoever we want.
We actually have that already within our baseball program and people complain about it. Absolutely blows my mind!
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Die-Hard [8977]
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Who cares where somebody goes to HS?...
Apr 29, 2012, 3:36 PM
[ in reply to Re: I would like to see more concentration on SC players as ] |
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Like I said, there are kids in other states that grow up in "Clemson households". Just because they aren't from SC doesn't mean they don't have a connection to the University. I like the fact that kids from all over the country WANT to play at Clemson. Do you know how Jonathan Meyer got to Clemson? Here's how: He and his family attended the 2006 College World Series (he had just finished his freshman year of HS) and he decided that he wanted to go to Clemson because he wanted to go to Omaha. Should Clemson not have signed him?
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110%er [6938]
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Yes, family told me the same but it is humiliating to get
Apr 29, 2012, 3:39 PM
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beat by kids from your own state many of who would have come to Clemson
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Die-Hard [8977]
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It may be humiliating to you...
Apr 29, 2012, 3:50 PM
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but it makes no difference to me. Maybe some of those "SC kids" couldn't GET IN Clemson. Did you ever think about that? In case you didn't know, baseball recruits at Clemson have to meet the same admission requirements as regular students, coach Leggett can't get in guys that meet NCAA minimum requirements. Ray Tanner has (I think) 4 admission exceptions that he can use to get in marginal students. What makes you think that Michael Roth would have gone to Clemson anyway? By the way, he was a mediocre first baseman and Clemson had a commitment from Richie Shaffer. Richie committed as a junior in HS. And Ray Tanner signs plenty of out-of-state players. Jackie Bradley Jr, Christian Walker, Evan Marzili and a bunch of others are from out-of-state. I want to sign the best players available (that will show up) regardless of their hometowns.
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110%er [6938]
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Re: is State, Carolina, FSU and UVA getting those exceptions
Apr 29, 2012, 4:24 PM
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too? If so, I will agree with you.
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Orange Elite [5132]
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It does suck to get beat by your rival and yes there are
Apr 29, 2012, 3:50 PM
[ in reply to Yes, family told me the same but it is humiliating to get ] |
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some guys over there that potentially could've played for us, but the last thing you want to do is have a knee jerk reaction and change what you do on a whim just b/c your rival wins a title. You still stand a better chance of accumulating talent going nationally than instate. We do have good talent in SC, but more times than not there's a lot better talent spread elsewhere.
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110%er [6938]
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Re: Knee jerk my eye! When half of this board wanted to
Apr 29, 2012, 4:21 PM
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run Dabo off, I stayed behind him. I am not advocating running Jack off but he darn sure needs to make some changes.
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Orange Elite [5132]
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Completely changing your recruiting philosphy based on
Apr 29, 2012, 4:29 PM
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something someone else does in a small period of time would most certainly be a knee jerk reaction.
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Letterman [281]
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Re: Yes, family told me the same but it is humiliating to get
Apr 30, 2012, 2:26 PM
[ in reply to Yes, family told me the same but it is humiliating to get ] |
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Why is that? What is so magical about a state line? Certainly glad we had Kieboom (from GA) last weekend rather than some scrub catcher from Columbia or Charleston, even if he wanted to go to Clemson.
You (or at least some people) can make rational arguments about talent level among teams. Which team is doing the best job of recruiting is a legitimate topic of discussion. But arguing about where kids come from is silly. I guess it's a remnant of that old hillbilly "forgit hell" "state pride" logic. College baseball requires national recruiting. Ain't that much talent in SC.
>... but it is humiliating to get
> beat by kids from your own state many of who would
> have come to Clemson
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Letterman [281]
TigerPulse: 83%
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Re: Yes, family told me the same but it is humiliating to get
Apr 30, 2012, 2:30 PM
[ in reply to Yes, family told me the same but it is humiliating to get ] |
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Peanut, grow some balls and identify yourself to the families so they know what kind of tool they're dealing with.
>Yes, family told me the same but it is humiliating to get
> beat by kids from your own state many of who would
> have come to Clemson
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Game Changer [1640]
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Re: Typically...
Apr 30, 2012, 11:16 AM
[ in reply to Typically... ] |
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Trouble is, people here see some guy play good HS ball in state and think he is the solution. Doubt we have EVER had an all-SC Roster...........
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Game Day Hero [4477]
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Fan [78]
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You make some logical points,
Apr 29, 2012, 2:19 PM
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but SCar won a national title so that naturally means our program is in a downward spiral. Logic and reason get you nowhere on this board.
But in all seriousness, great post!
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Rival Killer [2833]
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Re: I have mostly stayed out of the baseball discussion...
Apr 29, 2012, 2:38 PM
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How dare you confuse the situation with facts! Btw....Great post!
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Varsity [104]
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I think that's the best summary I've seen.
Apr 29, 2012, 2:48 PM
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You are spot on. The cycles have been there, though those previous cycles cycles don't ensure a positive peak is imminent. I hope so, but........
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Game Day Hero [4477]
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You've read the prospectus . . .
Apr 29, 2012, 4:40 PM
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"Past Performance is No Guarantee of Future Success!"
Go, Tigers!
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Dynasty Maker [3483]
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Thanks for the feedback
Apr 30, 2012, 12:58 PM
[ in reply to I think that's the best summary I've seen. ] |
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I agree that there's no guarantee of another positive peak in 2 years - my point was just that history shows that the program has been cyclical and not in serious decline. If the pattern holds true, then we will get better over the next two years and not worse as the "steady decline" crew would like everyone to believe.
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Game Changer [1640]
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Re: I have mostly stayed out of the baseball discussion...
Apr 30, 2012, 11:14 AM
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I was at Clemson while Whielham was coach. He was a super coach and individual. But, how many World Series did he win?
Also, for most of his career, he could count on about 1/3 or more of his roster being on football scholarship (and Basketball somewhat). Therefore, he had more scholarship money to spread around. Also the Majors weren't handing out such large signing bonuses so more good players went the college route.
All this needs to be considered, plus how easy is it to get into Clemson vs. other schools. If you were offered a 1/3 schollarship to go to Clemson vs a huge contract to play pro, no doubt what you would take.
Not saying Jack is perfect, but there is a lot to consider. It's not as easy as most people on here would think.
If USCjr hadn't won two national Championships, I think that the conversation here would be a lot different.
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Game Changer [1648]
TigerPulse: 82%
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You make a great argument.
Apr 30, 2012, 10:20 PM
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My counter would be the fact we were seeded pretty often in early 2000's and not so much lately. Also we haven't had a steady decline since JL took over, just the last 5-6 years.
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