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How do you know the existence of
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Hall of Famer [24273]
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How do you know the existence of
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Oct 8, 2023, 3:25 AM
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Pluto. Please show your work. It can't be the work that was written by someone else. No links, please.
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Orange Blooded [3227]
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Re: How do you know the existence of
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Oct 8, 2023, 4:11 AM
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How would anyone do that?
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Hall of Famer [24273]
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Re: How do you know the existence of
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Oct 8, 2023, 4:46 AM
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So, you have faith that Pluto exists?
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Orange Blooded [3227]
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Re: How do you know the existence of
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Oct 8, 2023, 4:57 AM
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Yes, because it's been proven scientifically. We have proven photos of it. It's not comparable with faith and God.
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Hall of Famer [24273]
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Re: How do you know the existence of
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Oct 8, 2023, 8:32 AM
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Well, how do you know it's Pluto and not just another rock on the outer solar system that looks like Pluto?
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Orange Blooded [2053]
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Re: How do you know the existence of
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Oct 8, 2023, 9:12 AM
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Let's get to the real point that you are wanting out of this.
Look, we don't know for 100% that it isn't some conspiracy by scientists. you can't prove anything to 100%.
However, what do I have to lose by believing that Pluto exists? Pretty much nothing. I might look foolish, but that's about it.
You are saying that if I don't believe YOUR claims which you admit we have to rely on faith for is deserving of eternal punishment.
So yeah, excuse me if I'd like a little evidence beyond some 2000-year-old claims by religious people.
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Hall of Famer [24273]
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Re: How do you know the existence of
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Oct 8, 2023, 9:23 AM
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I have not said such a thing to you.
So, you have faith that Pluto exists? Is that what you're saying?
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Orange Blooded [2053]
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Re: How do you know the existence of
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Oct 8, 2023, 9:40 AM
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> I have not said such a thing to you.
Don't be obtuse, that is exactly what you are implying. Otherwise, feel free to clarify.
> So, you have faith that Pluto exists? Is that what you're saying?
You can continue to be dishonest about this if you wish, but no, I do not have faith Pluto exists. I think it's reasonable to think that Pluto exists based on the evidence I've been shown. That is precisely the opposite of what you seem to want me to do with your religion.
Maybe you aren't understanding, so I'll make it clearer to you.
No, I haven't seen the one particular celestial body Pluto through my own personal experience.
I have however seen other celestial bodies through my own personal experience.
Therefore, I already know other celestial bodies exist, so it's reasonable to think there might be one more.
I have never seen anything supernatural (to my knowledge). If I witnessed people turning water into wine or walking across water or raising people from the dead, I would now understand that is something that happens.
Obviously, I have not seen those things. I have read in an ancient book that some people CLAIMED it happened. And then I hear people like you repeat those CLAIMS. You have never seen these things happen either, but you insist that I am being unreasonable for being skeptical.
Make no mistake, you are the only one in this convo that relies on pure faith. Thinking that Pluto exists is not the same as thinking someone walked on water at all.
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Hall of Famer [24273]
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Re: How do you know the existence of
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Oct 8, 2023, 9:52 AM
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I have not been dishonest to you at any point. And, I am not implying anything. These are things that you have made up about me. So, I will say you are being dishonest. Another false claim you make there is that I claim you are unreasonable for being skeptical. I have made no such claim.
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Orange Blooded [2053]
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Re: How do you know the existence of
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Oct 8, 2023, 9:57 AM
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> I have not been dishonest to you at any point. And, I am not implying anything. These are things that you have made up about me.
You ARE implying when you state your beliefs about Christianity. Do you or do you not think I'm going to hell when I say I don't believe Christianity is true?
> Another false claim you make there is that I claim you are unreasonable for being skeptical. I have made no such claim.
Are you being pedantic? I'm not claiming you literally said those words. I'm basing them off your arguments so far.
In this thread alone, you are comparing believing in supernatural claims to believing in Pluto existence. Therefore, you must think I'm being unreasonable for believing in Pluto but not in the supernatural claims.
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Hall of Famer [24273]
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Re: How do you know the existence of
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Oct 8, 2023, 10:07 AM
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I believe you are already in hell. Which I believe is separation from God.
I have NEVER made any argument that your skepticism is unreasonable. I believe your skepticism is very reasonable. I completely understand.
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Orange Blooded [2053]
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Re: How do you know the existence of
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Oct 8, 2023, 10:10 AM
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So I wasn’t lying about your assumptions then.
Also, how do you square the idea that my skepticism is reasonable with the idea that sending me to hell is just?
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Hall of Famer [24273]
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Re: How do you know the existence of
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Oct 8, 2023, 10:14 AM
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I don't think you understand. I believe you are in darkness now. Just as I believe the Kingdom of Heaven is at hand. This is all right now.
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Orange Blooded [2053]
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Re: How do you know the existence of
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Oct 8, 2023, 10:19 AM
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I'll give you one thing, you are good at avoiding questions.
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Orange Blooded [3227]
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Oculus Spirit [94248]
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I haven't seen Uranus either.
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Oct 8, 2023, 5:12 AM
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But post like this let me know it's real.
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Hall of Famer [24273]
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Re: I haven't seen Uranus either.
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Oct 8, 2023, 8:33 AM
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How do you know, if you haven't seen it?
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Oculus Spirit [94248]
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Trolling is showing your butt.
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Oct 8, 2023, 9:08 AM
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Am I so self absorbed that only I get my jokes?
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Hall of Famer [24273]
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Re: Trolling is showing your butt.
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Oct 8, 2023, 9:17 AM
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Are you asking me? Or, are you asking yourself?
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Orange Blooded [2053]
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Re: Trolling is showing your butt.
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Oct 8, 2023, 10:11 AM
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lol, you honestly seem very confused a lot.
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Oculus Spirit [94248]
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He's confused because his mind isn't in the gutter like ours
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Oct 10, 2023, 4:19 AM
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He just doesn't jump to understanding of every vulgar innuendo as do we. He has a precious mind, something both of us would do well to appreciate.
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Hall of Famer [24273]
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Re: He's confused because his mind isn't in the gutter like ours
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Oct 11, 2023, 7:45 AM
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I'll assure you, unfortunately, my mind can sufficiently enter the gutter.
If I had to guess, Uranus is on the moon 
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Oculus Spirit [97861]
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This is where we need NJDEV to provide us with the
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Oct 8, 2023, 8:12 AM
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Pluto conspiracy.
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Hall of Famer [24273]
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Re: This is where we need NJDEV to provide us with the
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Oct 8, 2023, 8:35 AM
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How do know that NJDEV really exists? Have you seen him. It could be another person that is typing under NJDEV's name. Prove me wrong.
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Orange Blooded [2053]
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Re: This is where we need NJDEV to provide us with the
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Oct 8, 2023, 9:07 AM
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Well, for one, I have asked whoever is behind the NJDEV handle a question, and he has responded. That's infinitely more than I got when I used to pray. I never received a single response.
Sure, it could just be a bot or a figment of my imagination, but at least it gives SOME solid evidence of its existence.
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Orange Blooded [2053]
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Re: How do you know the existence of
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Oct 8, 2023, 8:43 AM
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So clearly this is one of those "atheists have faith too" posts. Which is telling because it implies that you only believe on faith. Which is what I've suspected all along.
To answer your question, though, you're right, I haven't personally seen Pluto or done the math to verify it's there. However, I have seen other celestial bodies (I wanted to say planet so bad) both with the naked and through a telescope. So, as far as I can tell, planets and dwarf planets exist. So when astronomers tell me Pluto is there (and show me pictures which you say I can't use) it's not exactly a giant leap to accept that claim.
If they told me something that was completely outside my experience, like Pluto exists and dragons live there, I would not just accept that claim. I would require evidence for that.
The Bible says a man named Jesus walked the earth and made some claims, I have no problem accepting something to that effect happened. When it says he walked on water or rose from the dead, yeah, I'm not sure why anyone would just accept that claim. You are free to do so; it's not unreasonable for me to think that is legendary, considering the only evidence for that are claims written by people who were part of the small religious sect.
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Hall of Famer [24273]
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Re: How do you know the existence of
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Oct 8, 2023, 9:01 AM
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99 average in both Flowers' Astronomy classes, by the way.
How do you know we are not in a simulation?
Message was edited by: p6fuller®
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Orange Blooded [2053]
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Re: How do you know the existence of
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Oct 8, 2023, 9:06 AM
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> How do you know we are not in a simulation?
We don't. But I have a better question: Of all the infinite unfalsifiable claims out there, how do you know which one is true?
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Hall of Famer [24273]
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Re: How do you know the existence of
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Oct 8, 2023, 9:07 AM
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You tell me
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Orange Blooded [2053]
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Re: How do you know the existence of
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Oct 8, 2023, 9:13 AM
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Avoiding the hard questions huh? I see how it is.
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Hall of Famer [24273]
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Re: How do you know the existence of
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Oct 8, 2023, 9:17 AM
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You too
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Orange Blooded [2053]
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Re: How do you know the existence of
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Oct 8, 2023, 9:22 AM
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Literally haven't. I've answered all of yours.
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Hall of Famer [24273]
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Re: How do you know the existence of
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Oct 8, 2023, 9:31 AM
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Of all the infinite unfalsifiable claims out there, how do you know which one is true?
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Orange Blooded [2053]
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Re: How do you know the existence of
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Oct 8, 2023, 9:42 AM
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I will answer that, but in general, usually the person who asks should get an answer first.
The answer is simple: you can't.
I can not prove that God doesn't exist. However, I can't prove Santa doesn't exist. Is that therefore a good reason to believe Santa does? Exactly how much time should I spend looking into this Santa phenomena before concluding it probably doesn't have merit?
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Orange Blooded [2161]
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Re: How do you know the existence of
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Oct 8, 2023, 4:02 PM
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If we’re being honest I would have an easier time believing in Santa clause than the god of the Bible.
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Orange Blooded [3227]
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Oculus Spirit [94248]
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Small?
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Oct 8, 2023, 9:12 AM
[ in reply to Re: How do you know the existence of ] |
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Christianity spread like wildfire. I mean, God does it all and all you have to do is believe. He even works within you to fix your life which brings you greater joy.
Even if I was an atheist I would have to admit that such a message is much more attractive than anything others have to offer.
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Orange Blooded [2053]
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Re: Small?
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Oct 8, 2023, 9:26 AM
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Yes, it started small. There is no question about that.
> Christianity spread like wildfire.
Mormonism and Islam are spreading like wildfire too, should I chalk that up to those being true too?
> I mean, God does it all and all you have to do is believe.
Show me that it works. It's extremely easy to claim that it does.
> Even if I was an atheist I would have to admit that such a message is much more attractive than anything others have to offer.
There are many things that I would like to be true, you can't just "believe" something into existence. Show me the evidence.
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Orange Blooded [2053]
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Re: Small?
Oct 8, 2023, 7:20 PM
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Lol CUintulsa®
I saw that deleted ad hominem.
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Orange Blooded [2161]
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Re: How do you know the existence of
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Oct 8, 2023, 9:01 AM
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All-In [40957]
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I've seen it through a telescope***
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Oct 8, 2023, 7:38 PM
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Orange Blooded [2053]
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lol I love it***
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Oct 8, 2023, 8:01 PM
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Hall of Famer [24500]
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Very good answer.
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Oct 9, 2023, 5:43 AM
[ in reply to I've seen it through a telescope*** ] |
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If you have seen it, that does not mean your saying so fits anything fuller is asking for, but it proves it to you. Your testament is not evidence for him, but is proof to you. Is only that, but is that. If this is what you intend for him to know, mission accomplished.
I think (just imo) he might be proposing that when limited to characters typed on a message board, no one can claim to have a more objectively valid conclusion than someone else who has valid reasons for his own conclusion. If you want to beyond your experience to convincing him of your conclusion, you might offer corroboration, and he can, depending on his bias, counter with never ending whatabouts, and off you go on a 100-post thread.
He might be proposing that demands for proof on a message board are used mostly by people who have already decided that their supply of whatabouts will be inexhaustible. What you know to be true, or any truth, cannot overcome that. But it doesnt change what you know.
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Orange Blooded [2053]
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Re: Very good answer.
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Oct 9, 2023, 7:58 AM
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You are trying to equate seeing the moon through a telescope with a personal religious experience. You are leaving out the obvious difference in that, right now, Neal in NC® could invite any one of us over and show us Pluto through a telescope.
> Your testament is not evidence for him, but is proof to you.
The flaw in your logic here is that the evidence for Pluto CAN be used to empirically show others.
There is no equivalent in religion. If I look through the telescope, I'm not going to see remnants of Muhammad's moon split.
Again, if we go to Neal's house we'll be met with hard evidence, if we go to yours we'll be met with some form of "it's up to you to believe". We can't "look through a telescope" and see someone walking on water.
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Hall of Famer [24500]
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Re: Very good answer.
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Oct 9, 2023, 12:14 PM
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I am sorry this is difficult for you, and anger inducing.
1. My post was to someone's answer to an interesting question. You think I posted about something you want to argue about. Narcissism is seeing everything and everyone as being about oneself.
2. Fuller asked for proof of a thing, and neal gave a great answer, one that can be proof only to him, not to anyone else. That is all that can be said about that, which was my post. But you want to argue about something else.
- neal can show corroboration/evidence. I said as much.
- neal can invite fuller over to see what is said to be Pluto.
I won't repeat what I said about corroboration. As to being invited over to see what neal sees, there are whatabouts for that, and you already know fuller might refuse to even look, saying another internet poster said neal's telescope wasn't accurate.
My post wasnt about even that. It was a guess at the point fuller might be making with the OP. I said what that was. You did not get that the first time, probably don't now.
As to how that applies to the defense of the NT as accurate, that has been discussed. I have experiential and objective reasons for believing they are accurate. I have not asked you to change your mind. I know what I know and why, and you are free to whatever you choose. Is why neal's answer is a good one.
Message was edited by: CUintulsa®
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Orange Blooded [2053]
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Re: Very good answer.
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Oct 9, 2023, 12:35 PM
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>I am sorry this is difficult for you, and anger inducing.
lol! There is the insecurity again.
> 1. My post was to someone's answer to an interesting question. You think I posted about something you want to argue about. Narcissism is seeing everything and everyone as being about oneself.
Or, hear me out, this is an open message forum.
> 2. Fuller asked for proof of a thing, and neal gave a great answer, one that can be proof only to him, not to anyone else. That is all that can be said about that, which was my post. But you want to argue about something else.
Except that literally not true.
> I won't repeat what I said about corroboration. As to being invited over to see what neal sees, there are whatabouts for that, and you already know fuller might refuse to even look, saying another internet poster said neal's telescope wasn't accurate.
Right... someone will refuse to look through the telescope... that is not the argument at all. I'm saying that there isn't the equivalent ability to even look through the telescope. There is nothing that the religious person could show that is the same as showing someone to look through a telescope. It is all based on believing something you can't substantiate.
> You did not get that the first time, probably don't now.
I mean, I can differentiate legend from history, maybe you should work on that?
> I have experiential and objective reasons for believing they are accurate.
Experiential? Sure. Objective? I doubt it.
> Is why neal's answer is a good one.
It is indeed a good one, just not for the reasons you think.
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Hall of Famer [24500]
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Re: Very good answer.
Oct 9, 2023, 9:42 PM
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Geez, no it literally is true. It is well known that one's personal experience is not proof to anyone else.
But yes, you are right. I should not have jumped to the conclusion I did. There are a few other reasons you might see everything Christians say as being about you. One of those is worth serious consideration.
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Orange Blooded [2161]
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Re: Very good answer.
Oct 9, 2023, 10:16 PM
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I’m glad I found out that you’re just a simulation. That will make it much easier going forward.
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Orange Blooded [2053]
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Re: Very good answer.
Oct 10, 2023, 7:47 AM
[ in reply to Re: Very good answer. ] |
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> Geez, no it literally is true. It is well known that one's personal experience is not proof to anyone else.
> Fuller asked for proof of a thing, and neal gave a great answer, one that can be proof only to him, n
ot to anyone else.
I'm specifically referencing Neal's answer that he's seen it through a telescope. That is not something the can only be proof to him. He could literally show others what he saw through the telescope.
I honestly don't even know how to give you the benefit of the doubt on this one.
> There are a few other reasons you might see everything Christians say as being about you.
Not sure what you are referring to there.
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Hall of Famer [24273]
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Re: Very good answer.
Oct 11, 2023, 7:39 AM
[ in reply to Very good answer. ] |
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Yes, I've seen pictures of Pluto and I trust that it can be mathematically proven. I could have used something like Sagittarius A, but that could be confusing. So, I picked our farthest uh err planet. One reason I said no links is because that would have just been faith in the testimony of another. I'm guessing most people could not find Pluto even if they had a high powered scope. And most people could not mathematically prove its existence. So for most, at least to some degree, the existence of Pluto is a matter of faith.
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Orange Blooded [2053]
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Re: Very good answer.
Oct 11, 2023, 8:02 AM
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> And most people could not mathematically prove its existence. So for most, at least to some degree, the existence of Pluto is a matter of faith.
You are still trying to equate this to religious faith, which is simply not true. There is no analogous telescope to look through for religion.
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Hall of Famer [24273]
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Orange Blooded [2161]
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Re: How do you know the existence of
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Oct 9, 2023, 3:04 PM
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Why no links?
They have pics of Pluto you can see for yourself.
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