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Offensive Star [335]
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Saving SS/Medicare
Mar 22, 2025, 6:53 AM
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If either of the current dimwitted political parties actually wanted to work to save these 2 items it would not be difficult.
Lift the CAP to $450k . Though benefit max payments must also increase or that is called theft.
There has not been an adjustment to payroll taxes since the 80’s. Increase both by 2%- 2.5%.
Medicare especially needs more funding as health care costs have risen dramatically.
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Offensive Star [335]
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Re: Saving SS/Medicare
Mar 22, 2025, 7:10 AM
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Just so there is no “ it will fix itself once boomers die argument. Boomers, GenX , Millennials and Gen Z currently all have within 1% of each other the same percentage of population. Roughly 20% each.
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Orange Elite [5434]
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Re: Saving SS/Medicare
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Mar 22, 2025, 7:46 AM
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Just get rid of the cap completely. Why should any tax policy explicitly exist to only benefit the richest segment of the population?
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Offensive Star [335]
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Re: Saving SS/Medicare
Mar 22, 2025, 7:56 AM
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Well, the reason is the max benefit payment monthly would be huge.
Everyone that expects to collect SS or use Medicare needs to be part of the fix. Not just the highest earners.
Speaking from personal experience I will collect 100’s of thousands more than I ever paid in to SS. It only takes 1 major operation to easily outpace any amount paid to Medicare.
Do not be one that wants but wants others to pay for them, it is always a bad look.
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Athletic Dir [1121]
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Re: Saving SS/Medicare
Mar 23, 2025, 11:24 AM
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Have you done the math on the SS benefits? You need to include your employer’s contributions also, if you weren’t self employed.
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Offensive Star [335]
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Re: Saving SS/Medicare
Mar 23, 2025, 11:30 AM
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Yup, did the total contributions in my name, so both mine and employer.
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Athletic Dir [1121]
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Re: Saving SS/Medicare
Mar 23, 2025, 11:55 AM
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My bad. My calculation included interest at the historical federal funds rate (didn't look up which rate they use for the trust fund, but that should be close). If I wait till 67 and live to 80, I'll get a cumulative of 40k more than was contributed. With the nominal interest included, I'll get 323k less. All my calcs say take it as soon as you can limit your earned income to (currently) 23,400 if below full retirement age.
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Ring of Honor [22256]
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Elon Musk has enough money that he doesnt need SS or Medicare
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Mar 22, 2025, 9:11 AM
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So #### the people who do. Let those poor b@$+ards die!
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Offensive Star [335]
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Re: Elon Musk has enough money that he doesnt need SS or Medicare
Mar 22, 2025, 10:54 AM
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What exactly are you ranting over and to who are you replying?
I know you think the wealthy should pay for everything but the math says it will not work out. Right now if the Government took the entirety of the top 1% worth it would run the government for 6.5 years.
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TigerNet Champion [121256]
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Re: Elon Musk has enough money that he doesnt need SS or Medicare
Mar 22, 2025, 11:16 AM
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I say go for it. Most inherit money from mommy and daddy and spend their lives convincing themselves they are the smartest and the best in some half ass attempt to avoid guilt, they are truly miserable people with no purpose in life, no responsibility and completely isolated from main stream society out of Fox news baited paranoia. They would sooner set a homeless person on firthan pay 4.5% into a system that ultimately supports their best interest. If we did ever have a major crash,they would be the first to go, with no marketable skills, weak backs, and a sense of entitlement that is hard-wired since childhood. We would be doing them a favor by making them work at least 20 hours per week to get their tax cuts, much like people have to work 20 hours a week to get food assistance for their kids.
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Offensive Star [335]
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Re: Elon Musk has enough money that he doesnt need SS or Medicare
Mar 22, 2025, 11:26 AM
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We spoke and TMailed years ago, you seem to have gotten a bit more bitter and cynical since then.
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Ring of Honor [22256]
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Offensive Star [335]
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Re: Just serving a little sarcasm for breakfast.
Mar 22, 2025, 1:16 PM
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It is just math, simple math to boot.
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Ring of Honor [22256]
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Offensive Star [335]
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Re: Here is a little basis for the Musk sarcasm
Mar 22, 2025, 3:36 PM
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Did I ever say anything about Musk regarding SS? Do not think so, they took it every paycheck and they owe it back.
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Ultimate Tiger [37847]
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CU Medallion [18255]
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Ring of Honor [22256]
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My bad. Elon is the poster child for empathy and compassion .
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Mar 22, 2025, 1:54 PM
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Just ask him or Trump. They will tell you so!
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National Champion [7724]
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Re: Saving SS/Medicare
Mar 22, 2025, 10:32 AM
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Any discussion about returning these plans to solvency that doesn't include raising the retirement age isn't a serious one. There's no way we can continue paying people to retire at 62 when people are now living well into their 80s. Bump it up a couple years at a time every ten years or so and end up with an initial eligibility age of maybe 70 and then you're looking at having a real impact. We can't continue to pay people to not work for over a third of their adult life.
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Ring of Honor [23794]
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Offensive Star [335]
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Re: I hate this stupid lie. People are NOT living well into their 80s.
Mar 22, 2025, 10:59 AM
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To be fair Covid shewed the data a bit, then factor in most Americans are not what one would call optimal weight. Most eat unhealthy , now factor in drugs(including cigarettes/ alcohol). Most get little to no physical activity.Perfect storm for trying to die early.
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Ring of Honor [23794]
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Lack of good medical care as well.
Mar 22, 2025, 11:02 AM
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Covid was a blimp on the radar. Life expectancy is failing in America, and most people are NOT "living well into their 80s." That's a lie being spread by this admin and musk.
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Offensive Star [335]
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Re: Medical issues as well.
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Mar 22, 2025, 11:05 AM
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Caused by poor diets no exercise and substance abuse. American medicine does a really good job of keeping people alive that are desperately trying to kill themselves.
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CU Medallion [18255]
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Re: Lack of good medical care as well.
Mar 22, 2025, 12:50 PM
[ in reply to Lack of good medical care as well. ] |
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Covid was a blimp on the radar. Life expectancy is failing in America, and most people are NOT "living well into their 80s." That's a lie being spread by this admin and musk.
When did Musk say that or is this just another lie?
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National Champion [7724]
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Re: I hate this stupid lie. People are NOT living well into their 80s.
Mar 22, 2025, 11:05 AM
[ in reply to I hate this stupid lie. People are NOT living well into their 80s. ] |
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In the US, individuals who live to age 62 can expect to live to an average of 82.28 years. So if you make it to retirement age (62) you're gonna live slightly more than 20 years on average, which isn't actuarially sustainable based on our current taxation/benefit model.
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Ring of Honor [23794]
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Thanks for bringing math into this retirement bs.
Mar 22, 2025, 11:19 AM
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Now we are speaking my language.
Nice try focusing only on people who reach age 62. This skews the math. Many workers pay into Social Security but never live to retirement age, subsidizing the system for others. This is also true for illegal aliens who were paying into the system who would never see a dime.
The math looks much different if you count everyone, not just those who retire. Raising the retirement age based on a selective statistic is misleading and unfair.
But hey, A for effort.
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Top TigerNet [31567]
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To be fair
Mar 22, 2025, 11:28 AM
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I may disagree with his conclusion on actions drawn from his statistic, but if it is accurate it does seem like a valid statistic to consider.
I'd think a comparison of whether folks are drawing social security longer (ie how long they live after beginning to draw benefits) is a valid metric as part of the conversation.
Of course that number isn't sufficient in an of itself, it would also need to be put along side the number of folks paying in and never drawing (or drawing for a short period).
I have no idea if his stat is accurate, but if so it does seem worth considering.
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Offensive Star [335]
TigerPulse: 96%
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Re: Saving SS/Medicare
Mar 22, 2025, 10:50 AM
[ in reply to Re: Saving SS/Medicare ] |
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People that work the trades are broken down and busted up before the current 66 10 month full benefit. Lot of other jobs too
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Ring of Honor [23794]
TigerPulse: 100%
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Offensive Star [335]
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Re: 12 years of retirement after working 66 years is too much?
Mar 22, 2025, 11:04 AM
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It would not be working for 66 years but I do get your point and agree it.
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Paw Warrior [5016]
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Re: Saving SS/Medicare
Mar 22, 2025, 11:09 AM
[ in reply to Re: Saving SS/Medicare ] |
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Exactly right. I bet most people wanting to keep pushing the retirement age out several years sit on their butts in an air conditioned office drinking coffee.
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Offensive Star [335]
TigerPulse: 96%
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Re: Saving SS/Medicare
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Mar 22, 2025, 11:22 AM
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Yup! How many of them could be out laying brick, roofing, construction? Heck even assembly lines? You want a 70 nurse? Cop? Firefighter? Desk jockeys get circular filed because they become far too expensive.
SS max benefits should coincide with Medicare eligibility. As I said the percentages need adjust but it would be solvent.
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Ring of Honor [23794]
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The US is the richest county in the world.
Mar 22, 2025, 11:23 AM
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The money is there, just all in the top 0.1%. Yet the solution is to make people work until they die without a retirement or healthcare retirement?
How the GOP is getting people to go along with this is mind-blowing.
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Offensive Star [335]
TigerPulse: 96%
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Re: The US is the richest county in the world.
Mar 22, 2025, 11:31 AM
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It really is not. Confiscate top 1% entire net worth and you can run the country for 6.5 years at current sending levels
We are not rich, that lie also needs to stop. We are $36T + in debt and interest alone costs us almost $1T a year. It is like the 3rd or 4th largest outlay in the budget.
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Ring of Honor [23794]
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Re: The US is the richest county in the world.
Mar 22, 2025, 11:48 AM
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It's not a lie. You're conflating our national debt with how much wealth actually exists in the U.S.
Even though the government owes a lot, America is still incredibly wealthy, especially the top 0.1%. The issue isn't that we're broke; it's that almost all of our wealth is concentrated in the hands of a tiny percentage of people.
If we adjusted things to reduce that huge gap, there’d be plenty of money to support programs like Medicare and Social Security.
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Paw Master [17260]
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You are in the. 01% Worldwide.
Mar 22, 2025, 12:02 PM
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Why aren't you doing more to help them?
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Offensive Star [335]
TigerPulse: 96%
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Re: The US is the richest county in the world.
Mar 22, 2025, 12:12 PM
[ in reply to Re: The US is the richest county in the world. ] |
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You keep avoiding the fact that we could confiscate entire net worth of the top 1% and only run the country for 6.5 years. Then what? Move down to confiscation of the next 5% net worth? And so on?
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Ring of Honor [23794]
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Re: The US is the richest county in the world.
Mar 23, 2025, 8:46 AM
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It's not what I am saying at all.
The core issue is income and wealth inequality.
Many Republicans resist this idea, perhaps believing that they too might someday be Jeff Bezos. However, the reality remains clear: the ultra-rich often find ways to significantly reduce or avoid taxes, while lower-income individuals can't escape tax burdens. This leaves the middle and working class disproportionately shouldering the tax load.
Moreover, the middle class and small businesses drive economic growth through new job creation and consumer spending. As the middle class shrinks, economic stability weakens. Historically, there was a time in the U.S. when a single-earner household could comfortably own a home, a car, and support a family. This era featured a robust middle class supported by higher taxes on the ultra-wealthy, which naturally drew opposition from those at the very top.
The shift away from economic fairness began notably with President Nixon's reforms favoring private, profit-driven healthcare systems, and accelerated significantly under President Reagan with the introduction of supply-side economics ("trickle-down economics"). These policies have contributed significantly to the erosion of the American middle class ever since.
Additionally, historically, Republican administrations have frequently increased the national debt through significant tax cuts benefiting the wealthy, arguing that these cuts would stimulate economic growth. However, evidence suggests these tax cuts typically lead to increased deficits without providing the promised broad economic benefits.
Sources:
Pew Research Center: https://www.pewresearch.org/social-trends/2020/01/09/trends-in-income-and-wealth-inequality/
Congressional Budget Office: https://www.cbo.gov/publication/57061
Economic Policy Institute: https://www.epi.org/productivity-pay-gap/
NPR (Reaganomics and National Debt): https://www.npr.org/2021/12/08/1062603843/how-reaganomics-affects-our-economy-today
History.com (Nixon's Healthcare Policies): https://www.history.com/news/richard-nixon-healthcare-plan-why-it-failed
Center on Budget and Policy Priorities (Impact of Republican Tax Cuts): https://www.cbpp.org/research/federal-tax/the-legacy-of-the-2017-tax-law
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Offensive Star [335]
TigerPulse: 96%
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Re: The US is the richest county in the world.
Mar 23, 2025, 9:32 AM
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Top 10% pays for right at 70% of all income tax collected. Stop with the lies of the middle class being unfairly burdened.
Right now a married couple with a combined income of $123K(middle class right?) pays an effective tax rate of 8.7%, hardly onerous.That is the Trump Tax cuts in effect for the middle class. You guys look at $$$ amount saved by the wealthy to pretend tax cuts were for the wealthy. They get bigger dang $$$ amounts because what they pay is enourmous. Mark Cuban paid what #234M last year, you think the 2% cut was not serious $$$. Good grief get educated and get fair..
Those that pine for the days of a 90% tax rate on income over $250K like in the 50'S just read the headlines. NOBODY paid 90%,NOBODY!!!
Tax loopholes allowed effective tax rates similar to today.
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Ring of Honor [23794]
TigerPulse: 100%
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Re: The US is the richest county in the world.
Mar 23, 2025, 9:50 AM
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You’re focusing on the total amount of taxes paid by the wealthy, but that overlooks the bigger picture: proportional tax burden. While the top earners do pay a high share in total dollars, that's primarily because they've captured a disproportionately large share of income and wealth. Over the past few decades, income growth has overwhelmingly favored the top 1% their income has grown dramatically faster compared to the middle class, widening inequality. During COVID this shift of wealth to the top 0.1% was on crack.
Getting to your example of a married couple earning around $123K paying an effective tax rate of 8.7%: this is narrowly focused on federal income taxes and ignores other important regressive taxes that middle-class families pay disproportionately, like payroll taxes (Social Security, Medicare), state and local taxes, property taxes, and sales taxes. When you factor these in, the middle and working classes often face a significantly higher effective tax burden than your example suggests.
Also, about historical tax rates: Yes, nobody realistically paid the full 90% tax rate due to deductions and loopholes. But that's precisely the point, closing loopholes and simplifying the tax code could ensure the wealthy pay a fairer effective rate today. The issue isn't that the wealthy pay no taxes; it’s that their effective tax rate (what they actually pay) is often lower than middle-class taxpayers due to tax avoidance strategies, such as capital gains tax benefits, carried interest, and other preferential treatments.
Large tax cuts like the Trump tax cuts overwhelmingly favored corporations and top earners. Even conservative sources acknowledge this (Tax Foundation). Middle-class savings were relatively modest and temporary, while the wealthy received larger and permanent benefits.
I am not going to list the sources here because I am tired. You can trust I am not making this stuff up and you can look it up if you want to.
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Offensive Star [335]
TigerPulse: 96%
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Re: The US is the richest county in the world.
Mar 23, 2025, 11:00 AM
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Then advocate for a flat rate tax, if fair is what you are all in on. Better yet a lower flat rate with a VAT . It does capture the nearly $2T cash economy yearly then. No deductions, all income no matter the source is classified the same as wages. Anything other than that is by definition not "fair".
Payroll taxes are for their own retirement and health insurance. State tax? Come now , you can choose where to live and avoid a lot of those.I did! Capital gains (long term ) is 15% so try again as it is higher than 8.7 no?
The only thing progressives have done by instituting way higher minimum wages in places is to raise the cost of goods/Services, nobody is actually better off and they just "feel" better about their wage.
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Ring of Honor [23794]
TigerPulse: 100%
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Re: The US is the richest county in the world.
Mar 23, 2025, 7:49 PM
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I understand why a flat tax or VAT might sound fair, but in practice, they're often regressive—meaning they disproportionately affect middle and lower-income people. A flat tax of, say, 15% impacts someone earning $30,000 far more severely than someone earning $3 million, since necessities like housing, food, and healthcare take up a much larger share of the lower earner's income.
Regarding payroll taxes: they aren't purely personal savings accounts. They fund current retirees' Social Security and Medicare. Lower and middle-income workers pay a much higher percentage of their total income towards these payroll taxes than wealthy individuals, whose income above the payroll tax cap isn't taxed at all. This makes the payroll tax inherently regressive.
As for state and local taxes: yes, you can move to lower-tax states, but that's often impractical for working families who rely on local jobs, family ties, schools, and community support.
Your capital gains comparison overlooks the fact that many ultra-wealthy individuals rely primarily on investment income taxed at preferential rates, resulting in a lower overall effective tax rate than someone who earns their income through wages and salaries. Warren Buffett famously pointed this out, noting he pays a lower effective tax rate than his secretary.
Finally, the claim that minimum wage hikes only raise prices without improving people's lives isn't supported by evidence. Multiple studies show raising the minimum wage can significantly reduce poverty, stimulate local economies through increased consumer spending, and improve workers' overall quality of life.
Sources:
Tax Policy Center (Flat Tax and VAT implications):
https://www.taxpolicycenter.org/briefing-book/what-flat-tax
Economic Policy Institute (Payroll taxes regressive):
https://www.epi.org/publication/payroll-taxes-are-regressive/
Brookings Institution (Capital gains tax fairness):
https://www.brookings.edu/blog/up-front/2020/09/28/the-capital-gains-tax-should-be-reformed-not-eliminated/
Center on Budget and Policy Priorities (Benefits of Raising Minimum Wage):
https://www.cbpp.org/research/economy/raising-the-minimum-wage-would-benefit-millions-
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Athletic Dir [1121]
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Re: The US is the richest county in the world.
Mar 23, 2025, 7:54 PM
[ in reply to Re: The US is the richest county in the world. ] |
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The flat tax is an idiot's dream. It only works for idiots who have no understanding of basic maths.
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Offensive Star [335]
TigerPulse: 96%
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Re: The US is the richest county in the world.
Mar 22, 2025, 1:04 PM
[ in reply to Re: The US is the richest county in the world. ] |
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Look, we had a sign up at a place that I worked that is apt here.
“ I can explain it to you but I am unable to understand it for you”
Top 1% in the USA entire combined net worth is $43T. Our yearly government expenditure is a bit under$7T , you do the math.
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Paw Warrior [5016]
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Re: Saving SS/Medicare
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Mar 22, 2025, 12:23 PM
[ in reply to Re: Saving SS/Medicare ] |
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Yep, I have a friend who is 68 and still working an assembly line job. He needs to wait as long as possible because he needs every dime of SS he can get. He’s not in good health either. I’m 60 and plan to take my SS at 62.
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Offensive Star [335]
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Re: Saving SS/Medicare
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Mar 22, 2025, 1:14 PM
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I hear you, I look around today and wonder how folks are making it.
Rents are stunningly silly, so are house prices.
Food is high, insurance, utilities, education ,cars/trucks etc.
Yes SS is supposed to be a part of retirement but it’s tough to save with the way it is now.
I have been fortunate in some choices I made in my 65 orbits around the sun. The biggest one was to work for the best Company in the entire world as far as pay/benefits. Sadly it has changed since I retired, current employees are not getting anything close to what was once offered.
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Paw Warrior [5016]
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Re: Saving SS/Medicare
Mar 22, 2025, 2:16 PM
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Great that you had those benefits. I’ve been self employed for the past 30 years so I envy those benefits. But I knew early on I would have to save my brains out, and live below my means and debt free in order to retire well. So, I did just that. I’m semiretired now and not sure how long I will work. I guess until my wife says I have to quit which she is already bugging me to do.
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Ring of Honor [23794]
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Re: Saving SS/Medicare
Mar 23, 2025, 9:12 AM
[ in reply to Re: Saving SS/Medicare ] |
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Smart, if it is here then.
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Athletic Dir [1121]
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Re: Saving SS/Medicare
Mar 23, 2025, 11:19 AM
[ in reply to Re: Saving SS/Medicare ] |
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If you mean he’s waiting to take SS, please tell him NO. He should be collecting full SS while working, unless he plans to live extra long. But do the math anyway. I use an annuity calculation to do an apples to apples comparison for both SS and pension.
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Athletic Dir [1121]
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Re: Saving SS/Medicare
Mar 23, 2025, 3:02 PM
[ in reply to Re: Saving SS/Medicare ] |
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All it takes is a minor increase in the tax rate, a raise in the wage cap, a reduction in benefits, or some combination of the three. It's sustainable with a 21% reduction in benefits alone. It's not really that complicated.
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Ultimate Tiger [35044]
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I've never understood how raising the cap helps anything,...
Mar 23, 2025, 5:38 PM
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at least permanently, assuming the benefit amount increases accordingly.
I think a more creative way is needed. Something like allowing people making more than $###,###/year to privatize a certain amount and reduce their payout by an even larger amount.
For instance, raise the cap a little bit...and allow something like 5% to be put in private accounts and reduce payouts by 10%-15%, for example. The wealthier folks can better tolerate the risk and also understand that they can likely invest privately and outperform S/S returns.
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Offensive Star [335]
TigerPulse: 96%
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Re: I've never understood how raising the cap helps anything,...
Mar 23, 2025, 6:05 PM
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The government taxes it so it gets back money. Higher income brackets will pay on 85%, I do despite using tax free bond/funds.
Also the progressive left will fight to not increase benefits, I call that stealing. I have read at times both sides advocate means testing, once again theft.
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Ultimate Tiger [35044]
TigerPulse: 100%
56
Posts: 39161
Joined: 2003
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Sorry, but I don't follow how anything you listed leads to....
Mar 23, 2025, 6:51 PM
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Improvement in long-term solvency of SS.
Income tax revenue does not go to SS. Only the SS part of FICA does.
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Athletic Dir [1121]
TigerPulse: 79%
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