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Lot o points [155944]
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Need some lunge opinion on incident from my weekend....
Oct 1, 2018, 9:00 AM
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Just asking because I know I'll get any and all sides of the opinion expressed....
So we go to a small church, and after the rash of church shootings that occurred in the last couple years, (including one in the Nashville suburbs), we put together a security team who does a number of things, including keeping an eye on things during the services. I'm on said team.
So on Sunday, my wife and I were sitting together at the back of the church, and my daughter was sitting with some friends on the other side of the sanctuary. About 1/4 of the way into the service, I hear the outside sanctuary doors open, and as normal, I give a peek to see who it is.
So it's a pretty disheveled looking older white guy, long beard, dirty clothes, etc. That's honestly not what bothered me though---we have some homeless people who come to our services occasionally and it's normal. This guy though had a couple indicators that are things you look for in potential threats....he was acting really nervous and furtive, looking around a lot, short quick motions, and he had a small black shoulder bag that really seemed sort of out of place. He then came in and sat a row or two behind my daughter and friends.
So I immediately got up and used the excuse of handing him a program to make my way over, and then I scooted in and sat down beside him. He was still really nervous acting, and after sitting there about 2 minutes, pulled out his black bag and started to reach inside. I'm not sure I can describe how all my neurons were firing at that moment, but he reached in and pulled out........a Bible. The guy proceeded to go through the worship service normally, and at the end I introduced myself and welcomed him and got his story as a recovering addict.
Anyway, sorry for the short novel, but my problem is now I'm having a really tough time reconciling my actions. On one hand, I think I did what I should have done and what I would do again. On the other hand, I seriously hate that I have to think this way in church of all places, and that I had such doubts about someone who ultimately was just showing up to worship God. It's weighing heavy on me---probably more than it should but still.....
Any thoughts/opinions/insults?
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Heisman Winner [105622]
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You probably handled that situation 100% correctly. The
Oct 1, 2018, 9:04 AM
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guilt for thinking the worst comes with the territory, I guess. Imagine the opposite though...you ignore him and he ends up being a bad guy. You were correct.
Side note, do yall have armed people at church? My former church had this discussion and it was ONE reason we ended up leaving. Not one of the major reasons, but it was a reason.
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Lot o points [155944]
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We don't hire any armed security if that's what you mean---
Oct 1, 2018, 9:08 AM
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The megachurch in town I've heard has like 8 undercover armed in service every Sunday---that's nuts.
With that said, we don't ban guns, and that was a conscious decision.....people with concealed carry permits can and do carry during service. We don't encourage it, but we don't ban it either. Just felt like doing so would make us a softer target, although I get both sides of the argument. We probably lost a few members due to the stance (well, lack of stance I guess), but we would have lost others if they were prohibited.
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Heisman Winner [105622]
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No, not hiring security. Just having CWP holders strapped
Oct 1, 2018, 9:12 AM
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and ready at all times when the doors are open. Our old church was Western York County Red and they seemed more pumped about carrying their guns in church than they were about actually worshiping. Guns were not explicitly banned, but encouraging them was something I wasn't comfortable with at a church.
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All-In [46825]
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Parents of church has the security team as well
Oct 1, 2018, 9:04 AM
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which is really my father in the sound booth watching the security cameras while carrying his .40.
If we had more shotgun weddings we would have less church shootings.
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Heisman Winner [137976]
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Don't see anything wrong with how you handled it.
Oct 1, 2018, 9:04 AM
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Better to be cautious until the situation is assessed and you no longer require it. And it's great that your church welcomes homeless, downtrodden, addicts, etc. If there's anything about organized religion that annoys me, it's the "religious" people and congregations that look down their noses at those folks.
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Lot o points [155944]
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That probably didn't help.........
Oct 1, 2018, 9:06 AM
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The sermon that day was about how you can't be a true Christian and not help the poor/needy, and as I'm hearing that I'm sitting next to a poor guy who I was concerned would shoot the place up.
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Oculus Spirit [78892]
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better safe than sorry
Oct 1, 2018, 9:06 AM
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If he would have pulled out an AK, you would have pounced on him and saved the day and there would be an Obed day to celebrate your life since you would have been the only one shot and killed
Congarts
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All-In [34598]
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NEVER apologize for your gut instincts. Just be thankful
Oct 1, 2018, 9:07 AM
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this was a peaceful/innocent situation.
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CU Guru [1596]
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I think you did what was warrented.
Oct 1, 2018, 9:10 AM
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Circumstances have dictated that you needed to do what you did. You were respectful and you feel guilty that you have to do what you did, self-awareness. I don't think there's anything for you to beat yourself up over but if you still struggle.
If the gentleman keeps coming to your church you should befriend him and help him in whatever way you can to get him back on his feet. Take him on as a project. One day hopefully he's in a much better place and you can joke with him about your first time meeting.
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Heisman Winner [135616]
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I hate to say it, but you screwed up big time.
Oct 1, 2018, 9:11 AM
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As soon as his hand moved for the bag, you should have screamed "GUN!!!", throat punched him and then started kicking him until he was unconscious. When it turned out that he was just reaching for a Bible, then you offer a sincere apology when he regains consciousness and then take the family to the after-church Golden Corral buffet like any normal Sunday.
There's really nothing a sincere apology can't solve.
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Lot o points [155944]
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As usual, fantastic reply and even more fantastic if
Oct 1, 2018, 9:12 AM
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you know how close to reality that almost was. LOL
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All-In [46825]
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Keep in mind Dylan Roof attended bible study
Oct 1, 2018, 9:15 AM
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a couple of times before shooting up the place.
Have fun sleeping.
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Oculus Spirit [81078]
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No he didn't.
Oct 1, 2018, 9:27 AM
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He went there once walked in, sat down and started shooting.
He went by other churches, but originally intended to shoot up the school next door, but it was locked.
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All-In [46825]
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must have been fake news then
Oct 1, 2018, 9:32 AM
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Or it might have been the dude in Texas.
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Oculus Spirit [81078]
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All-In [26968]
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You did the exact right thing.
Oct 1, 2018, 9:28 AM
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You did not in anyway reject him. You used the eyes and ears God gave you to assess a situation and put yourself in a position to respond to whatever may have happened.
Well done, Obed.
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All-In [26968]
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And I suspect you would have had a very similar response...
Oct 1, 2018, 9:35 AM
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If everything had been the same (carrying a bag, acting weird) and he was wearing nice clothes. So I wouldn't feel guilty about assessing his outward appearance.
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Lot o points [155944]
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You're correct.........there are just a few warning signs
Oct 1, 2018, 9:36 AM
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that you look for, and this dude had two of them.
Ironically, the fact that he was a stranger was a factor in his favor, since most shootings happen from a member or member's family.
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All-In [49054]
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Well handled***
Oct 1, 2018, 9:31 AM
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All-In [35541]
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Better to ask for forgiveness than premission
Oct 1, 2018, 9:31 AM
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You did all the right things. Stop second guessing yourself.
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All-In [35541]
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Also another cliche for this situation
Oct 1, 2018, 9:32 AM
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Its hard to know what the right thing to do is, but once you know its impossible to not do it.
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CU Medallion [66085]
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You did the right thing
Oct 1, 2018, 9:32 AM
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I hate that's where society is, but you have to as cautious as possible. Added that he sat near your daughter, nothing wrong at all in what you did.
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Lot o points [155944]
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Thanks for the replies folks......I wasn't fishing
Oct 1, 2018, 9:34 AM
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for affirmation----actually expected some responses that I was an overreacting jerk acting like Paul Blart the church cop, but if the lunge is at peace with it, so am I.
thanks
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All-In [31907]
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using the lunge as your moral compass has...
Oct 1, 2018, 9:40 AM
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success written all over it!
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Lot o points [155944]
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the Lunge rarely achieves unanimity......
Oct 1, 2018, 9:43 AM
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So either what I did was very much correct or completely, horribly wrong. My ego dictates I go with the former.
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All-In [31907]
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Not sure how it could have been handled any better...
Oct 1, 2018, 9:39 AM
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being suspicious based on someone's looks is only a problem if you over-react, which you didn't.
Very smart move to take him a program and have a seat beside him.
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Oculus Spirit [83129]
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CU Medallion [50635]
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All-TigerNet [11252]
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Re: Glad it was false alarm
Oct 1, 2018, 9:59 AM
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But, uou might want to think about an unmarked drop gun just in case you have a bad day. I mean we all make mistakes occasionally.
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Heisman Winner [135616]
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Drop piece is ALWAYS a good idea.
Oct 1, 2018, 10:02 AM
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I know some motorcycle enthusiasts in Gastonia that can help procure one, if anyone is interested.
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Oculus Spirit [79429]
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Quite frankly, the fact that you did that instead of
Oct 1, 2018, 10:01 AM
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taking your shirt off and screaming "fugg with me" repeatedly at him says a lot about you, and society really. We've become soft, and we're vulnerable because of it. Pretty sad.
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CU Medallion [55787]
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it's the times we live in. Feelest thou not bad.***
Oct 1, 2018, 10:13 AM
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All-TigerNet [12851]
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I think you handled it perfectly.
Oct 1, 2018, 10:14 AM
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even if he had a gun under the bible, your proactive response would have thrown his plan off.
Thank God he was there to find Jesus.
But if he hadnt been, he would have been looking for an unsuspecting group that he could get the jump on.
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All-TigerNet [11640]
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What's there to feel bad about...
Oct 1, 2018, 10:29 AM
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You saw something out of place. You reacted to it. And when it was nothing you welcomed him.
I would have done the same.
We honeymooned in rural Mexico. After our stay our 'taxi' took us down a bunch of one way side roads at 5am on our way back to the airport. This is dirt poor Mexico and not the roads we took to the resort. Scary AF. I ended up taking the shoelace out of my shoe since I was sitting behind the driver. My thoughts at the time were to strangle him if he stops.
No regrets about that one. And you should have no regrets either.
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All-TigerNet [12763]
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Kill 'em all... let God sort 'em out!
Oct 1, 2018, 10:32 AM
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That's my loungey answer
I don't think you should feel guilty at all. You did what you were there to do and that is to look for signs of a threat to the congregation. Sounds to me like you handled it well and with guarded courage. I'm glad it turned out the way it did though. I mean, if KB2 would've stayed or came back or whatever, Brice would have never had the chance to be THE MAN Saturday. I'm proud of our team coming together in this week of diversity and pulling out the win. I've heard of some small churches here that actually lock the doors a few minutes after the service starts. So if a 'sketch' or a KB2 or a late parishioner or just a visitor wants to join the service, they'll miss out if they're late or will make a lot of noise getting in if they have bad intentions.
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CU Guru [1097]
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Re: Need some lunge opinion on incident from my weekend....
Oct 1, 2018, 10:50 AM
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I had a similar incident. During our revival last year, we had a guy come under our outdoor tent and have a seat right in front of me. Our Church is in a bad part of town. I'm on the security team also. Anyhoo, black dude came in and was wearing a black hoodie with the hood on and he had something black in the front pocket of the hoodie. I got very close since I thought a dude with a hoodie on in 90 degree weather would be up to no good. Others around me saw the same thing and got nervous. Dude took his hood off his head and reached for the black thing in his pouch. I reached for my gun in my pocket and got within 5 feet of the guy. He pulled out his black Carolina Panthers hat and put it on his head. I swore it was a gun at 1st. Everyone relaxed and I had an awesome chat with the dude. Sad we have to worry about things like this nowadays.
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Hall of Famer [23693]
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We had an almost identical thing happen a while ago.
Oct 1, 2018, 11:03 AM
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Ironically it was the Sunday after several of us had attended a County Sheriffs presentation on planning for an active shooter in your church.
Ours was a young man, who acted severely stressed, and had a backpack that never left his lap. One of our guys tried to talk with him in a chatty way but the conversation was really awkward. One of our guys sat behind him for the duration of the service while a couple other guys just kept an eye out for him.
Yeah, it turns out he was a new convert, a foreign student, and very ill at ease being where he was. We felt bad about how it went down. But, no one seems to think we could have done it differently.
I hate trying to type on a tablet.
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Orange Blooded [2013]
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Wrong Bored. P&R ==================================>
Oct 1, 2018, 12:40 PM
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seriously, you did a good job. we're glad you are still a life.
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All-TigerNet [12270]
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i usher at 10:30 mass at my church every sunday. our priest
Oct 1, 2018, 12:58 PM
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ask me and a couple other ushers who have ccps if we could do the same, form a security team. our church is on the corner of two very busy streets in savannah next to a heavily used community park so we have a lot of "unfamiliar" people wander in from time to time.
one guy in particular, who is somewhat mentally challenged, although he is not homeless he practically lives in the park, comes in quite often. we do exactly as you did with him, we have him sit in the back with us so that if he does have an "episode" we can get him out quick.
in the current state of out=r society i see nothing wrong with what we have to do to stay safe.
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All-TigerNet [10157]
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Re: Need some lunge opinion on incident from my weekend....
Oct 1, 2018, 1:58 PM
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Obed, you handled it well. This day and age you can't assume anything. I'm sure you have some guilt, but I believe you handled it well.
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All-TigerNet [10157]
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Re: Need some lunge opinion on incident from my weekend....
Oct 1, 2018, 1:58 PM
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Obed, you handled it well. This day and age you can't assume anything. I'm sure you have some guilt, but I believe you handled it well.
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Oculus Spirit [93673]
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I'll get back to you when I've slept on it.***
Oct 2, 2018, 12:29 AM
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110%er [6272]
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if
Oct 2, 2018, 7:17 AM
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After much introspection and sincere reflection you feel you would do the same thing again, let it go. Just ask yourself, was it because he was near YOUR daughter, or would you do it no matter. I feel sure the latter. Let it go.
The voice of God does not condemn.
You did the right thing.
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Hall of Famer [20573]
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You were just doing your job bro.
Oct 2, 2018, 10:53 AM
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Now if you would have drawn your weapon, and stuck it in his face, as he's pulling out is bible, well that's another story.
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Heisman Winner [134616]
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I think you handled it perfectly. The way things are these
Oct 2, 2018, 11:41 AM
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days, it's a shame you can't feel comfortable or safe in God's House of Worship.
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