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Expert [1214]
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Clearly many on the board today have completely lost their
Apr 17, 2014, 12:45 PM
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minds! What happen to someone of you? Are you so insecure in your own religious beliefs that when someone or a group highlights a "potential" problem (and rightly so) you guys just freak out? Do you not trust your higher power enough to believe that everything is in their control? Just because one group doesn't agree with you then you must refer to them as NAZI? Guess what? You are the one exhibiting "NAZI" behavior.
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110%er [3895]
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^^^Got the memo about Sirius Thursday***
Apr 17, 2014, 12:46 PM
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Expert [1214]
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I assume this is an inside joke so it is lost on me***
Apr 17, 2014, 12:49 PM
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Clemson Icon [26454]
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^^^Found one***
Apr 17, 2014, 2:02 PM
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All-TigerNet [14488]
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Orange Elite [5411]
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It's amazing how many of us believe in small government
Apr 17, 2014, 12:48 PM
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But want our public employees spreading the gospel?
Maybe I'm more unbiased because I grew up an atheist and converted to Christianity in my mid 20s. But I don't know how anyone can believe the government should be spreading the gospel.
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All-TigerNet [11161]
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Clemson does not spread the gospel. People AT Clemson do.***
Apr 17, 2014, 12:50 PM
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Expert [1214]
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I'll bite, does Dabo=Clemson or does Dabo=at Clemson?***
Apr 17, 2014, 12:54 PM
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All-TigerNet [11161]
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There are non-salary Chaplains, FCA, etc.
Apr 17, 2014, 12:55 PM
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Dabo has made his statement on this.
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All-In [10883]
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Expert [1214]
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I was trying to understand the previous comment
Apr 17, 2014, 1:11 PM
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What is "Clemson". As in any argument, we must agree on the terms.
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Orange Blooded [4506]
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You seem to be the one with all the answers. Why ask us??***
Apr 20, 2014, 11:30 PM
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1st Rounder [623]
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Top TigerNet [31537]
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I believe the central disagreement with your view
Apr 17, 2014, 12:51 PM
[ in reply to It's amazing how many of us believe in small government ] |
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Is that I do not equate what Dabo does with his team as the government spreading the Gospel.
But I can see your point, and agree wholeheartedly that it is a line that must be drawn (and walked) carefully.
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Ultimate Tiger [33608]
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you don't. the average person who dIdn't
Apr 17, 2014, 1:13 PM
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Know anything about Clemson and saw a random picture of nukes Baptism may not know that.
I have no problem with an investigation by the fffaa or whoever.
What I would like is an equally public announcement if no violations are found. However, I know that is as unlikely as proving good does or doesn't exist.
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110%er [8681]
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Expert [1214]
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A huge difference-I doubt the professor encourages you NOT
Apr 17, 2014, 12:56 PM
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to go to church. A professor just explains the- oh never mind you will not agree anyway.
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110%er [8681]
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Re: A huge difference-I doubt the professor encourages you NOT
Apr 17, 2014, 12:58 PM
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It's a religious belief, and yes I have had professor's try to convince me that a god doesn't exist and it has happened to some of my friends at other public schools as well.
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Expert [1214]
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Ever thought they were just trying to educate you
Apr 17, 2014, 1:04 PM
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on the alternatives? You get no bonus points for "converting" to atheism like one may think for converting one to Christianity. So to me that makes no sense other than they were just trying to help you see the world from a different perspective. I doubt they gave you a tract and asked you to come to their atheist "church".
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Orange Elite [5411]
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Orange Elite [5493]
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Re: A huge difference-I doubt the professor encourages you NOT
Apr 17, 2014, 1:55 PM
[ in reply to A huge difference-I doubt the professor encourages you NOT ] |
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> to go to church. A professor just explains the- oh
> never mind you will not agree anyway.
Bull crap telling a kid they are stupid if they believe is the same as telling them not to go
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Orange Blooded [2203]
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Re: A huge difference-I doubt the professor encourages you NOT
Apr 17, 2014, 2:34 PM
[ in reply to A huge difference-I doubt the professor encourages you NOT ] |
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> to go to church. A professor just explains the- oh
> never mind you will not agree anyway.
Do you think FFRF discourages people from going to church? Or as you said would they encourage people not to go to church?
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All-TigerNet [11161]
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Expert [1214]
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Ring of Honor [22331]
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Re: It's amazing how many of us believe in small government
Apr 17, 2014, 2:34 PM
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That's your opinion...
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110%er [6781]
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Re: It's amazing how many of us believe in small government
Apr 17, 2014, 12:57 PM
[ in reply to It's amazing how many of us believe in small government ] |
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There is a big difference in the government establishing a religion and a person who works for the government exercising their religion. That is why it is worded in the constitution in that manner.
Lets also be clear that spreading the gospel does not infringe on anyone else's liberty. Even though you may infringe on someone's liberty while spreading it.
(Ex.There are those in the past who "forced" conversion of native Americans etc. but of course that is neither an endorsed biblical practice or a real conversion. )
The gospel is a story and sharing it is like reporting the news. Really old great news.
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All-TigerNet [11161]
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There are very small governments with large religious effect
Apr 17, 2014, 12:59 PM
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See Vatican City.
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110%er [6781]
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Re: There are very small governments with large religious effect
Apr 17, 2014, 1:05 PM
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I was specifically talking about the American Government Which supposedly has very limited powers so that individuals can govern themselves. With the only crime being to infringe on the liberty of another.
Also in America, The authority is the law not the lawmaker.
The lawmaker can be a preacher himself, but the law can't make you go to his church or stop you... Why?... Because its against the law for that to be a law.
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Expert [1214]
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All-In [26968]
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Doesn't sound like discretion to me:
Apr 17, 2014, 1:02 PM
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And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature.
Mark 16:15
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Expert [1214]
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But it does say how to do it in that verse, keep reading or
Apr 17, 2014, 1:07 PM
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googling.
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All-In [26968]
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What do you think it says about how to do it?
Apr 17, 2014, 1:10 PM
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You said you were "relatively sure" that it "eluded" (I think you meant "alluded") to using discretion.
There are many, many verses that talk about how to spread the gospel, but I don't know of any that hint at using "discretion".
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Orange Elite [5411]
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Yes. I'm not saying Dabo can't exercise his right to practice his faith
Apr 17, 2014, 1:02 PM
[ in reply to Re: It's amazing how many of us believe in small government ] |
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However, it is a very fine line with the profession he works.
At what point is his Dabo and at what point is he Coach Swinney?
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110%er [6781]
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Re: Yes. I'm not saying Dabo can't exercise his right to practice his faith
Apr 17, 2014, 1:10 PM
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Neither as an agent of the government or just a simply American citizen can he force anyone to believe or do anything religiously. But just because he gets a government paycheck doesn't mean he has to check his liberty at the door. He can use any means of persuasion he can think of so long as he doesn't infringe the liberty of others.
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Oculus Spirit [83641]
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reasonable reading comprehension...
Apr 17, 2014, 1:53 PM
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and understanding of history (unrevised) cannot produce the idea that the individual cannot integrate their beliefs into their government. Any interpretation contrary to that is subjective. If we want to restrict free speech and religious freedom of our citizens we need to add another amendment, because the version of the First Amendment that secularists subscribe to is not in our Constitution.
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Commissioner [1274]
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110%er [9174]
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Orange Blooded [3706]
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Clemson Sports Icon [55381]
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All-TigerNet [11161]
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I do agree that these people are FAR from being Nazis.***
Apr 17, 2014, 1:01 PM
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Expert [1214]
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That was the punchline so thank you.***
Apr 17, 2014, 1:05 PM
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All-In [10883]
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My issue is I haven't heard a SINGLE player speak out
Apr 17, 2014, 1:01 PM
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against Dabo and Christianity yet this organization feels they are 'protecting' students from them. They should mind their business. Organizations like that is what gives atheists just as bad of a rep as pew Christians. They seem to be hell bent on ridding the possibility of people finding God instead of being accepting and letting people make their own choices...
I know atheists who think this group and what they are doing is a joke...One even said, that's part of the reason they don't let people know they are atheists because groups like this make them look terrible...
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Orange Elite [5411]
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Just because a player hasn't complained
Apr 17, 2014, 1:05 PM
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Doesn't mean what he isn't potentially doing something unconstitutional.
I'm not sure why some people are trying to argue something isn't wrong if no one complains.
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Expert [1214]
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Excellent point***
Apr 17, 2014, 1:08 PM
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All-TigerNet [11161]
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Orange Elite [5411]
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You are right.
Apr 17, 2014, 1:14 PM
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I'm just not sure how this analogy is relevant to my argument?
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All-TigerNet [11161]
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Here's what I mean:
Apr 17, 2014, 1:18 PM
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You said that just because players aren't speaking against him doesn't mean something isn't going on (or something could be going on). Since we are dealing with unknowns, then the opposite argument has at least equal weight; that argument being that the reason the players aren't speaking against him is because nothing is going on.
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Orange Elite [5411]
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Yes, it could mean that.
Apr 17, 2014, 1:21 PM
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However, the poster I responded to stated that because no one complained it meant nothing wrong had happened.
I was merely pointing out that his comment wasn't logical. It appears you agree with me.
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All-In [26968]
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Talking about Jesus and the gospel is never wrong.
Apr 17, 2014, 1:26 PM
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There might be times present or future when it will be illegal, but it will never be wrong. The leaders of the day told the early disciples they were not allowed to preach in the name of Jesus, and they politely refused, saying "We ought to obey God rather than men." (Acts 5:29) Most of them paid the ultimate price for that when they were martyred.
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Oculus Spirit [83641]
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and we see how those great societies turned out...
Apr 17, 2014, 1:59 PM
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we are following in their footsteps
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All-In [10883]
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"The reason players aren't speaking against him is because
Apr 17, 2014, 1:30 PM
[ in reply to Yes, it could mean that. ] |
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nothing is going on"
"I haven't heard a single player speak out against Dabo and Christianity."
Care to explain the difference in those quotes with your logic?
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All-In [26968]
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I bet James Madison would so LOL
Apr 17, 2014, 1:08 PM
[ in reply to Just because a player hasn't complained ] |
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If he heard that "Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion" has, for some, extended all the way to "football coaches at public universities may not talk about Jesus to his players". The slope has gotten mighty slippery in the last 40-50 years.
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All-In [10883]
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Well that is generally how most humans operate, if something
Apr 17, 2014, 1:09 PM
[ in reply to Just because a player hasn't complained ] |
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is wrong, someone will complain eventually. All I see here is a group of atheists that are offended. Strange that group that believes in nothing would care so much...
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Expert [1214]
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Re: Well that is generally how most humans operate, if something
Apr 17, 2014, 1:52 PM
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That's just dumb, the obviously believe in the need for food and water etc.
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All-In [10883]
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And I think you're playing dumb to be cute...
Apr 17, 2014, 2:04 PM
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Clearly I was referring to believing in a divine being, which correct me if I'm wrong...they don't.
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Top TigerNet [31537]
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I don't think that is the point
Apr 17, 2014, 1:41 PM
[ in reply to Just because a player hasn't complained ] |
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(though I can't speak for everyone).
I don't think the point is: "some people are trying to argue something isn't wrong if no one complains"
I think the point being made is that in a discussion about potential religious pressures being placed on individuals it certainly is relevant to note that the ONLY individuals who have been in the place to have to religious pressures applied to them have not said they were.
It may be a subtle difference, but it is a worthwhile one when discussing an arena that folks outside the team are not privy to.
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Tiger Titan [48526]
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Would you?
Apr 17, 2014, 1:09 PM
[ in reply to My issue is I haven't heard a SINGLE player speak out ] |
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If you were a player on the team who had a problem with this, would you speak out against the coaches and other players publicly? Or would you contact the organization privately?
Considering the rabid response from fans on this board, I could see why a player would be hesitant to go public about it.
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All-In [10883]
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If I had a serious issue with it and I was of a different
Apr 17, 2014, 1:11 PM
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religion and I felt Christianity was being FORCED on me, then yes. That isn't hard to believe. Especially with how vocal players are on twitter and media these days.
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Tiger Titan [48526]
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You've got Clemson fans right here...
Apr 17, 2014, 1:14 PM
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Claiming to be Christian and spouting out hate that goes against the religion simply because a group of people are criticizing our coaching staff.
A player who would speak out would be in the minority, and he probably knows it. He knows the #### storm that would come from the coaches, teammates, and fans. If I were in his shoes, I probably wouldn't go public either.
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Orange Elite [5411]
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Yep. The victim would be on trial
Apr 17, 2014, 1:18 PM
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No different than the girl who reported Jameis Winston.
It's unfortunate.
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All-In [10883]
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That's why I said in my original post "pew Christians" or
Apr 17, 2014, 1:35 PM
[ in reply to You've got Clemson fans right here... ] |
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Christians that don't practice what they preach.
Your also assuming that every Christian is "spouting out hate," which is wrong. Again, I wouldn't call those Christians. I may like their God, but I don't like their Christians.
That's part of the problem with atheists is to assuming one bad representation of Christianity is fitting for them all.
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Tiger Titan [48526]
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Nowhere did I say that all Christians are spewing out hate.
Apr 17, 2014, 1:38 PM
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I said you have Clemson fans right here doing it. Didn't say everyone out there was.
You've also made the assumption that I'm an atheist, which I have not given any indication that I am. You've also just said that all atheists assume one representation of Christianity is fitting of all, and I disagree that all atheists do that.
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All-In [10883]
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Then why is it a surprise to you that there are "Christians"
Apr 17, 2014, 1:51 PM
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on here spewing hate? Are you surprised by that? I'm defending the notion that not all Christians are good Christians. Otherwise I don't see the significance of pointing that out unless I'm missing what you're trying to say.
Also, I have no idea where you are getting that I'm assuming you're an atheist...this whole debate is about an atheistic group...
And you are right, not all atheists view Christians the same...I would have been better served by putting 'some atheists.'
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Tiger Titan [48526]
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I think maybe we're arguing over some pointless semantics
Apr 17, 2014, 1:54 PM
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So I will close it with a picture of some pug puppies:
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Ring of Honor [21022]
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Hate is what this group is about. Freedom from religion is a
Apr 17, 2014, 2:04 PM
[ in reply to You've got Clemson fans right here... ] |
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hateful stand. It means they want to put limits on things that have NEVER been limited in this country in regards to religion. That is how I see it.
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Trainer [41]
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Re: You've got Clemson fans right here...
Apr 18, 2014, 7:13 PM
[ in reply to You've got Clemson fans right here... ] |
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And that is what they want. For Christians to be silenced. I applaud Dabo and Tommy Bowden for not being ashamed of living their faith.
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All-Time Great [88593]
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I would. I think most of the "rabid"-ness is because nobody
Apr 17, 2014, 2:08 PM
[ in reply to Would you? ] |
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has come out and it appears to be some outfit in Wisconsin trying to make money.
I would personally make a statement if I felt outcasted; however, I would first talk to Dabo before I ever felt the need to oust the program.
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Varsity [104]
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Re: I would. I think most of the "rabid"-ness is because nobody
Apr 17, 2014, 2:11 PM
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Would you though?
I mean, I'm an anonymous poster on a message board and I've been reserved about my opinion on this thing just after seeing all hell break loose from posters who I assumed were reasonable.
The echo chamber and spiral of silence would be hard to speak out against, IMO.
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Clemson Icon [24205]
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Do you realize how unlikely it would be for someone in the
Apr 17, 2014, 3:10 PM
[ in reply to My issue is I haven't heard a SINGLE player speak out ] |
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program do say anything that may negatively affect the program, even if they personally disagree with the program's religious character?
Be realistic about it.
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All-In [10883]
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Perhaps, but that's partly up to the individual...
Apr 18, 2014, 2:26 PM
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Don't these athletes hurt the program when they get caught doing drugs, breaking laws, hitting women, etc? They must realize their is the potential for them and their actions to become public and paint Clemson in some negative light.
Realistically, yes, it may be difficult for some. But at the same time, you have to agree Clemson has had some pretty outspoken players...all it takes is one.
I think the reason no one has spoken out and never will is that it isn't being forced on them from the beginning...a testament to Clemson NOT breaking any rules/laws. So why would anyone ever complain?
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Clemson Icon [24205]
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When players break the rules,
Apr 18, 2014, 5:22 PM
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they try to keep it secret. The entire point of speaking out against a coach's policy is to make it public. The two situations do not come close to equating.
Plus, the Christian overtones of our program probably attract people who like it and deter people who don't. Reducing the odds even further that any real negative side-effects ever come out into the public.
I respect Dabo's religion and support his right to be outspoken about it to his players. But I think it would be better if we separated Christian dogma from the way our program is run. Just talk about Judeo-Christian values and don't get specific about Jesus all the time. That way the same message can be delivered without making anyone feel pressured or alienated.
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All-In [10883]
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When it comes to religion...someone will speak out.
Apr 20, 2014, 11:13 PM
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You'd be hard pressed to find an issue that matches the importance of religion and the freedom to practice it than a devout theist. I believe most devout theist would GIVE UP football if they were forbidden to express it.
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Clemson Icon [24205]
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There is no more powerful influence on human beings than
Apr 21, 2014, 2:41 PM
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Social pressure. Read Christopher Brownings 'ordinary men'
People sacrifice themselves and others over it. So speaking out about something that is only mildly uncomfortable (religious indoctrination)at the risk of being extremely isolated his incredibly unrealistic.
without social pressure religion would not exist.
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TigerNet Champion [117416]
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i like to think of human beings as the predators they are
Apr 17, 2014, 1:07 PM
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with eyes in front, incisors & canines for tearing of flesh.
like the great philosoph, dundee, said to sue when she fretted the croc was going to eat her alive... "well, don't hold that against him, same thought crossed my mind once or twice"
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Tiger Titan [48526]
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People need to consider...
Apr 17, 2014, 1:07 PM
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...that if other lesser state employees did what Dabo and the coaching staff are doing, they would be fired. I would lose my job in an instant if I led Bible studies at my job or bused students to church (I'm assuming the busing of Clemson players is to the tithe-factory that is New-Spring).
Even Dabo's hiring of the chaplain violates Clemson policy.
Look, I'm firmly planted in the Dabo camp (or the Pumper Camp, I guess, according to some on this board). But why must religion be injected by the coaching staff into the team? There are lots of successful programs across the country that don't do this.
People have been countering with the argument that he's teaching the players good morals and that it combats discipline problems. Why must religion be used for this purpose? You can attain high morals and discipline without bringing any religion into it. Countless programs do it already. Christianity does not corner the market on morality.
Or, if it's that important that we maintain Christian-based Bible studies and bus trips to church, then how about the coaching staff provide alternative options for all denominations and religions, not just Baptism?
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Expert [1214]
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You are still around here, haven't seen your name in a while***
Apr 17, 2014, 1:09 PM
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Tiger Titan [48526]
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I float in occasionally...
Apr 17, 2014, 1:10 PM
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Sometimes still with the foolish notion that I can have a reasonable debate over matters like this!
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Expert [1214]
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I know, I saw this and lacked my normal restraint.***
Apr 17, 2014, 1:12 PM
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TigerNet Champion [117416]
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reasonable debate to me suggests it would have a reasonable
Apr 17, 2014, 1:15 PM
[ in reply to I float in occasionally... ] |
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chance to change an opinion.
are you changing yours or are you here to pontificate? from what i've read from you, it's the latter.
and don't get me wrong, that's ok.
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Tiger Titan [48526]
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I'm always open to other ideas...
Apr 17, 2014, 1:17 PM
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Sorry you misinterpreted what I've said.
But you're going to have a hard time convincing me that what's going on isn't against the law since I'm required to follow that same law.
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TigerNet Champion [117416]
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let's be clear, my interpretation is my own, not yours.
Apr 17, 2014, 1:19 PM
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if you mispoke, i'm kewl with that.
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Tiger Titan [48526]
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Then I kindly invite you to present some facts...
Apr 17, 2014, 1:21 PM
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To change my opinion.
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TigerNet Champion [117416]
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and i kindly invite you back to my original response where i
Apr 17, 2014, 1:25 PM
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pointed out there's nothing wrong with you pontificating.
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Tiger Titan [48526]
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Mama said I would go blind if I did that too much.***
Apr 17, 2014, 1:26 PM
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TigerNet Champion [117416]
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she might of been right...
Apr 17, 2014, 1:29 PM
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i've seen your views on the "law".
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Orange Elite [5411]
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Tiger Titan [48526]
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They strongly pitch...
Apr 17, 2014, 1:16 PM
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Tithing and recruitment. More people = more tithes. Tithe factory.
They follow the Wal-Mart formula of business.
Of course, I should probably be careful about posting it online lest Perry Noble release his goon squad to try to ruin my life like they did that Anderson University professor.
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Expert [1214]
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Be careful***
Apr 17, 2014, 1:27 PM
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110%er [6781]
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Re: People need to consider...
Apr 17, 2014, 1:17 PM
[ in reply to People need to consider... ] |
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So you're claiming you have a superior view of religion to those who believe differently about how it should be practiced?
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TigerNet Champion [117416]
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have you two met?***
Apr 17, 2014, 1:17 PM
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Tiger Titan [48526]
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Re: People need to consider...
Apr 17, 2014, 1:19 PM
[ in reply to Re: People need to consider... ] |
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I'm not sure how you interpreted that I have a superior view on religion from my post but okay. I do feel I have a pretty good feel on the law in this matter, though.
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110%er [6781]
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Re: People need to consider...
Apr 17, 2014, 1:35 PM
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The way you questioned the basis on which someone taught morality made me think that you thought your view of the grounds for moral teaching were superior.
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Tiger Titan [48526]
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I do not.
Apr 17, 2014, 1:41 PM
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I don't agree with the idea that one must follow the Christian doctrine to be moral. There are many paths to morality. However, the argument that has been presented here is that our players will learn a better basis of morality if they follow Christianity.
I think we can all agree on some pretty basic moral grounds that transcend Christianity and other religions.
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110%er [6781]
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Re: I do not.
Apr 17, 2014, 1:56 PM
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Well I'm not going to argue the case that you have to follow the Christian doctrine to be moral, Because the Christian doctrine is actually that you can't be moral.
But
it still seems that you are saying your view of morality is superior to those who disagree with you. You think you can get real morality from a lot of places and you are right while they think you only get real morality from one place and they are wrong.
Therefore your view of morality is superior to theirs.
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Tiger Titan [48526]
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Well, if that's what it equals
Apr 17, 2014, 2:04 PM
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Okay, sure. I believe you can learn morality through many avenues, not just Christianity, and I disagree with anyone who has the notion you can only get it through a Christian path.
So if that means I think my view is superior, so be it.
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110%er [6781]
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Re: Well, if that's what it equals
Apr 17, 2014, 2:14 PM
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and I believe my view is superior also. I just wanted to point out those who say that all religions are equal are not being tolerant while I'm being intolerant. We are both claiming to have a superior view point.
Where the rubber meets the road is how you treat the people who disagree with you. I appreciate the humble and civil dialogue.
Which I also think is the primary reason for the backlash at the FFRF. IMO Totally different than the religion issue, or deeper at least. The perception is that someone who thinks THEY are better than US has come into OUR turf and are telling US that WE are inferior to THEM.
and it doesn't help that they are located in the north if everyone was being honest.
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Associate AD [806]
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Truthfully, Christianity is morally superior.
Apr 17, 2014, 1:59 PM
[ in reply to I do not. ] |
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All other religions agree pretty much on one tenet. Do no harm to others. Christianity alone teaches that we are to not only do no harm, we are to actively seek to do good to others around you. Only Christianity has the golden rule. Do unto others as you would have them do unto you. This one principle puts Christianity far ahead of any other world religion. The Hindu will allow a child to die from starvation in the gutter because he is not doing him any harm by ignoring him. And besides, he is just working out his Karma. Only the Christian has an obligation to do what he can to help. As Christianity declines in a culture that culture becomes increasingly coarse and violent. We see it all around us in America. Also, there is the issue of democracy. All religions lead to a corresponding form of government. Islam naturally functions within a theocracy and sharia law. Atheism always leads to totalitarianism enforced by mass murder. Only evangelical Christianity provides a theological and intellectual foundation for democracy. This is why the founding fathers said that the form of government they established was only sufficient to govern a moral and religious people. They meant Christianity was the only real foundation for democracy. See George Will's speech at St. Louis University a couple of years ago for more about this subject. He makes a compelling case.
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Tiger Titan [48526]
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Not so fast my friend
Apr 17, 2014, 2:14 PM
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The Golden Rule, or variations of it, has existed in many religions and non-Christian societies, and some even before the creation of Christianity. Some that have it:
1. Buddhism
2. Hinduism (despite your earlier claims)
3. Ancient Greece
4. Ancient Egypt
5. Confucianism
6. Ancient Rome
Next, we are not a democracy. We are a republic. And we are not the first republic in the history of the world. The concepts of democracy and a republic existed before Christianity.
Finally, does Christianity not ultimately employ the concept of a monarchy (God and Christ as King)?
I can provide links to support my arguments above if you are interested.
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110%er [6781]
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Re: Not so fast my friend
Apr 17, 2014, 2:26 PM
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You are 100% correct. I would only add that 2 things.
Christianity is the only one of those that contains the active imperative to DO. Active DO for others what you would have do to you. This is important because it the rule that God follows when he gives his life for us and asks for our lives in return. Also its important because our response to this rule shouldn't be to only work harder at following it, but in context, if going to heaven depends on our ability to follow this rule then we are in deep doo doo.
Secondly, the reason Christianity lends itself to representative democracy with maximum liberty is precisely because we serve another King. The more kings you have, the more likely there is to be conflict with the rules. And the early Americans came from a place where choosing to obey the higher law got you good and dead. So a society where each follow his God (or no God) according to his conscience is preferable.
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Tiger Titan [48526]
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But the greatest movement in the forming of our government
Apr 17, 2014, 2:36 PM
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Came from the ideas of the Enlightenment, not from a religious push. The colonists did not want a break from England due to religious persecution.
What you did have was a shift in belief on who granted authority and power. In the past, the belief was the the monarch's power came from God, therefore he/she was granted a mandate to treat the people accordingly. The shift during the Enlightenment was that God gave all people their rights (as Jefferson highlights in the Declaration), therefore ensuring equality (or, back then, equality for white men).
So in a sense, yes, the shift in Christian ideology mixed with social equality helped lead to our revolution, but previous doctrine of Christianity had set up decades of monarch rule.
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110%er [6781]
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Re: But the greatest movement in the forming of our government
Apr 17, 2014, 3:07 PM
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Definitely agree with that, except that many people came to America fleeing persecution, not all, probably not even half and it was one among many reasons for the revolution. also it was pretty easy to see why the establishment clause was so important in the first place. Americans and there forefathers had seen first hand the abuse from countries like Spain, Italy, and England when even doctrine was dictated by the government.
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Associate AD [806]
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Catholicism does tend to encourage monarchy.
Apr 17, 2014, 3:26 PM
[ in reply to But the greatest movement in the forming of our government ] |
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But as an evangelical, I would argue that Catholicism is a syncretistic religion rather than Biblical Christianity. Now, the enlightenment was the motivating force behind the French revolution. That is why it was fraught with such wanton violence. The American revolution found other intellectual roots. Lex Rex was written by a presbyterian and provided the foundation for republican, rather than monarchial government. In the book Rutherford aruges for an evangelical view of government based on a constitution, rather than the divine right of kings. Also, the American revolution was greatly facilitated by the First Great Awakening which led to a revival of evangelicalism in both England and New England. Again, the doctrines of soul competency and the priesthood of all believers led directly to the political doctrine that all men are created equal.
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Associate AD [806]
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Associate AD [806]
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I disagree.
Apr 17, 2014, 3:13 PM
[ in reply to Not so fast my friend ] |
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Other religions do not require active good beyond certain obligatory acts (Islam requires giving 2.5% to the poor but does not require the adherent to do all the good he can, Christianity does). The rule in other religions is inevitably, do no harm, which is not the golden rule. Second, the fact that we are a republic does not diminish my point that this republic is founded on "democratic" ideals, i.e. all men are created equal. Also, in the "republics" you cite, all liberty was seen as gifts from the government rather than being true rights. For this reason these republics inevitably saw the decline of liberty. Look at Rome under Nero. even in Greece there were limits placed on speech. We need look no further than the fate of Socrates to prove this. Also, most of these republics limited liberty to only certain classes, not all men. Only protestant Christianity, specifically evangelicalism, secures our rights based on the fact that we are "endowed by our creator with certain inallienable rights." The doctrines of soul competency and the priesthood of all believers mandates that government never infringe our right of conscience. This is why the first amendment is so closely associated with Baptists. It was largely due to our influence that these liberties were secured in the Bill of Rights. Indeed, the wall of separation between church and state is a principle found not in the constitution, but in a letter from Thomas Jefferson to the Danbury Baptists who were concerned about persecution from the state. Finally, of course the universe is a monarchy. God is sovereign and we do not get a vote in his decisions. But that, in fact, is the very guarantee of our liberty. As I said before, our liberties are granted by the sovereign of the universe, not some council in Washington or the UN.
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Tiger Titan [48526]
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Check out these quotes
Apr 17, 2014, 3:44 PM
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"Do to others what you would want them to do to you." -Luke 6:31
"Never impose on others what you would not choose for yourself." -Confucious
"Now this is the command: Do to the doer to cause that he do thus to you." -Ancient Egypt
"Do not do to your neighbor what you would take ill from him." -Pittacus, Ancient Greece
"Expect from others what you did to them." -Seneca, Ancient Rome
"Listening to wise scriptures, austerity, sacrifice, respectful faith, social welfare, forgiveness, purity of intent, compassion, truth and self-control - are the ten wealth of character. O king aim for these, may you be steadfast in these qualities. These are the basis of prosperity and rightful living. These are highest attainable things. All worlds are balanced on dharma, dharma encompasses ways to prosperity as well. O King, dharma is the best quality to have, wealth the medium and desire the lowest. Hence, by self-control and by making dharma your main focus, treat others as you treat yourself." -Mah?bh?rata, Ancient India
And there are others. Christianity isn't the first to adhere to the Golden Rule; in fact, given the propensity for some Biblical tales to be borrowed from other previous cultures, Christianity likely copied this rule. Not that it's a bad thing; they're good words to live by.
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Clemson Icon [24205]
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Christianity borrowed the Golden Rule from Judaism...
Apr 17, 2014, 3:51 PM
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which borrowed it from Mesopotamian polytheism.
Just like Adam and Eve, Moses floating down a river in a basket, and world flood... and a lot of the other "Old Testament" stuff.
Wish Christianity held on to Enkidu... that would have made Sunday School a lot more fun growing up.
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Associate AD [806]
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Your view of the development if religions is flawed.
Apr 18, 2014, 5:54 PM
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Obviously tainted by an a priori commitment to an illigitimate dating of Old Tetament writings, fueld by radical secularism. Christianity is organically connected to Judaism. No one is arguing that connection. But your connection between Mesopotamian idolatry and Judaism suffers from an inversion of influences. For instance, the story of Noah predates the Babylonian Epic of Gilgamesh by a wide margin.
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Clemson Icon [24205]
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Your whackjob dating is only accepted by the desperate.
Apr 18, 2014, 7:04 PM
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Many elements of Judaism/Hebrew culture were quite obviously influenced by older Mesopotamian religions. Any rational, open-minded historian is forced to deduce that. Even when I was still a Christian, I accepted that. It doesn't eliminate the possibility of Judaism/Christianity being legitimate... but to deny the obvious influence is counter-rational.
The Sumerian flood myth goes back to like the 17th or 18th Century BC. All evidence (largely put together by Christians) clearly points to Sumerian/Babylonian flood myths predating Hebrew myths. And that is just one of the many examples of Judaism borrowing from other pre-existing myths. And I'm not picking on Judaism... all cultures/religions do the same thing.
Think this guy is a radical secularist?
http://web.knoxnews.com/pdf/randallobrienresume.pdf
Hell, even the answers in Genesis people admit it.
http://www.answersingenesis.org/articles/csgeg/introduction
Don't be afraid of questioning things rationally.
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Orange Blooded [3706]
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Re: Your whackjob dating is only accepted by the desperate.
Apr 18, 2014, 7:31 PM
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You said "Even when I was still a Christian..."
That is an impossibility.
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Clemson Icon [24205]
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I don't follow. What's an impossibility?
Apr 20, 2014, 10:37 PM
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I was a churchgoing, bible studying, heathen arguing, Christian. I sought to rationally defend and perhaps even prove that my beliefs were true. My efforts led me in a different direction than what I expected.
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Paw Warrior [4867]
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Re: I don't follow. What's an impossibility?
Apr 20, 2014, 10:46 PM
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No true Scotsmen put sugar in their porridge.
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Clemson Icon [24205]
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Oh. Well that clears it up.***
Apr 21, 2014, 2:00 PM
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Orange Blooded [2609]
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Re: Your whackjob dating is only accepted by the desperate.
Apr 20, 2014, 11:21 PM
[ in reply to Your whackjob dating is only accepted by the desperate. ] |
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You are no different than who you accuse. You merely believe what youve been told. Are you dumb enough to believe that Christianity and the Bible isnt backed by historical evidence? Study it for yourself and stop believing something just because its convenient and easier
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Clemson Icon [24205]
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Re: Your whackjob dating is only accepted by the desperate.
Apr 21, 2014, 2:34 PM
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I base my beliefs on my own subjective analysis of the data that I've been able to research. I have no more proof for my beliefs than anyone else has about theirs. However, I believe that the evidence overwhelmingly points to Christianity not being the true reality of the universe. The reason that I am confident about this belief is not because it is easier or more convenient.
Growing up with my family which is nearly entirely Christian and growing up in communities that were nearly entirely Christian it was much more difficult to challenge myself to honestly and thoroughly question some of the things I was raised to believe. This difficulty is why the vast majority of human beings will maintain their beliefs (about whatever) that came from their family regardless of outside influence. they will automatically resist anything that challenges their viewpoint unless it is so overwhelmingly obvious that they cannot refuse.
Once a person commits to a certain beliefs about purpose of their life and purpose of the universe, then it is extremely difficult and unlikely for that person to supplant that belief. People desire the comfort that is associated with salvation based religions bc they want an easy answer to exactly how the world works.
It is a much less comfortable and much more complicated approach to attempt to piece together the purpose of the universe and the purpose of life using all available data instead of arbitrarily choosing one that you came across simply because of where and when you were born.
I agree with the religious that most atheists are every bit as faith-based as Christians, but there exist other, more difficult, approaches than either Christianity or atheism to try and understand the way the world works.
The chief difference between my worldview and that of Christians is that I do not claim to know for sure the nature of the universe. I also do not include dogma is any part of my beliefs. It is too easy for me to accept that I just-so-happened to be born in the right family in the right part of the world and my access to the eternal salvation is based more on luck than anything else. There is no escaping the fact the Christians believe that God has constructed a system in which most of his creation are destined to be tortured for eternity. You can try to get around that all you want and say that God is merciful, but that Mercy is merely from himself. Because I do not believe in a god that is less moral then I, my intuition prevents me from accepting the Christian worldview. This does not mean that I challenge gods authority, it simply means that I challenge human beings silly view of what they perceive to be God. Science and history, to me, provide evidence that there's purpose in this universe, but I believe that the specific explanation Christians have come up with is incompatible with the nature of reality.
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Associate AD [806]
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I stand by my assertion.
Apr 18, 2014, 6:00 PM
[ in reply to Check out these quotes ] |
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Most of these quotes fall into the category of "do no ill" to others. That is not the golden rule.
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Clemson Icon [24205]
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The only reason you think this is likely because....
Apr 17, 2014, 3:47 PM
[ in reply to I disagree. ] |
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A: You know very little about world historical religions.
B: What little you do know comes from a pro-Christian slant, which is geared towards justifying already existing Christian beliefs.
C: You are emotionally committed to retaining your beliefs because your life purpose, as you currently define it, is tied to being right that Christianity is the only true religion.
Been there, done that.
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Associate AD [806]
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Actually, you are wrong.
Apr 17, 2014, 1:49 PM
[ in reply to People need to consider... ] |
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As a state or federal employee you have a perfect right to lead a Bible study during non-work hours such as lunch time. Also, the busing of players to church is not in violation of the law as long as it is not provided by the university. A church or other group may do so with impunity. Many churches run church buses to campuses every Sunday across the nation. Also, legally a state employee has every right to discuss his faith with any student who asks. Chaplains have been upheld legally in state offices and in schools as long as they are not paid by the state, and do not actively proselytize. I served as a public school chaplain for several years. If a student asks a question, the chaplain may answer it. The student may also voluntarily choose see the chaplain rather than other counseling resources available on campus. Also, Dabo has the legal right to gather with anyone, student or staff, for prayer and Bible study as long as it is not a condition of employment or playing. Many professors lead groups such as the FCA or Baptist campus ministries on campus. Such groups are considered no different than any other student organization. Dabo's actions would be no different than any other extra curricular organization meeting on campus. We do not give up our right to free speech, religion, or assembly just because we step onto a campus. The supreme court has ruled that schools are not a religion free zone. To do that would be to establish a state religion of atheism.
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Tiger Titan [48526]
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Re: Actually, you are wrong.
Apr 17, 2014, 2:02 PM
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But you're talking about chaplains, who are afforded some different rights. I agree the law doesn't say we have to forfeit our religion (and certainly not the students; they are actually more protected). In the K-12 public school system, teachers can't lead groups like FCA or anything else similar that happens on campus. They can be there to supervise. Yes, students can ask an employee and he/she can tell the student his or her beliefs, but they cannot try to push, sway, or encourage the beliefs with the student.
I think the issue this group is taking is that coaches are engaging in these activities on campus and not providing similar services for other religions.
Religion actually must come into the classroom for educational reasons on many occasions, but the teachers cannot push or encourage one over the other. That appears to be the issue at Clemson.
Yes, I know it's all voluntary, but that's the issue under the law.
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Associate AD [806]
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No, in an after school group such as the FCA
Apr 17, 2014, 2:16 PM
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A teacher can talk about his or her faith and encourage kids who voluntarily participate to become a Christian. The issue is that it can not be coerced in any way. And it cannot occur during work hours. Second, there is no evidence that Dabo has "pushed" his beliefs on players. Also, Dabo can absolutely advocate his beliefs ON CAMPUS. Just as long as it is not part of the curriculum and is extra curricular. There is no difference between him giving his testimony at a private Bible study held in the football offices after or before hours and his doing the same to a Baptist student group meeting in the cafeteria. Finally, if students are not required to attend these meetings, then he has no obligation to provide similar opportunities for other religions. If the local Imam wants to hold a study of the Koran on campus, then it is his job to recruit students and organize such a study. I would go to the mats to defend his right to do so as much as I would for Dabo. But Dabo has no obligation to advocate, on his own time, another religion.
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Tiger Titan [48526]
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I have taught in two public schools
Apr 17, 2014, 2:19 PM
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Teachers were not permitted to lead FCA or preach about it on campus. Students led the group. That's because it occurred on-campus. I've also started a club and was told I could not bring religion into it at all.
However, I would love to see documentation for the state of SC that contradicts this in public schools. Got a link?
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Associate AD [806]
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No link.
Apr 17, 2014, 2:34 PM
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But I have worked with an FCA group where the football coach both led, and advocated his faith. The group met after school and even had prayer walks through the building that the coaches participated in. In fact, the science teacher even attended and gave a lecture on why he was a creationist. If a group meets outside of school hours, there is no reason why teachers cannot actively participate. What if a church met in the cafeteria on Sunday (as the supreme court has ruled is legal)? What if the history teacher was the pastor? Often administrators who have been cowed by anti religious pressure groups over react to religious restrictions. I am guessing that was the case in your situation.
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Tiger Titan [48526]
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That could be the case.
Apr 17, 2014, 2:37 PM
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Or the coach and science teacher were breaking the law in your case. So I guess that's what we'd have to figure out.
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Associate AD [806]
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The problem in your case may have been
Apr 17, 2014, 2:48 PM
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that the group was "school sponsored." In that case the teacher could only attend as an observer. That sounds more like what was going on. In Dabo's case, an after hours Bible study would not be "school sponsored."
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Tiger Titan [48526]
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They were school-sponsored.***
Apr 17, 2014, 3:36 PM
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110%er [5156]
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If it's on state property it is school-sponsored...
May 5, 2014, 12:37 PM
[ in reply to The problem in your case may have been ] |
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and if it utilizes agents of the state (see: "teachers") it's school-sponsored.
You're wrong.
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Associate AD [806]
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110%er [5156]
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Well first, you're convoluting a couple
Apr 18, 2014, 4:03 PM
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of concepts. There is a difference between court precedent, statutory law, and district policy.
The vast, vast majority of case precedent re: State agents in K-12 scenarios err on the side of caution. See Lee v. Weisman, Santa Fe Indep. Sch. Dist. v. Doe, and several others.
You also misrepresent the spirit of the court decisions in the decisions you cite. The Wigg decision only goes as far to say that a state employee's speech is not necessarily tantamount to establishment, especially if this is in relation to a public cause or issue.
Further, the very website you gave us says the following:
"Teachers may, however, take part in religious activities where the overall context
makes clear that they are not participating in their official capacities. Before school
or during lunch, for example, teachers may meet with other teachers for prayer or
Bible study to the same extent that they may engage in other conversation or
nonreligious activities.17
The history of case precedence for K-12 employees is clear; you are an agent of the state, and therefore your religious speech to students is limited to objective instruction. Your participation in a group such as FCA is limited to the role of an objective sponsor or chaperone. Before, after, during school... doesn't matter.
Public school officials may not promote or initiate student prayer or require students to participate in prayer.
More to the point, each district interprets these cases, and state statute, differently. Most districts though, err on the side of caution.
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Associate AD [806]
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Well your just wrong.
Apr 18, 2014, 6:03 PM
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Outside of school sponsored events. Teachers have full freedom of speech. If the FCA meets as a private group the school has no day in anything that happens.
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110%er [5156]
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Very late to the party.
May 5, 2014, 12:29 PM
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You need to read some court decisions. You clearly haven't.
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Campus Hero [13336]
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Tiger Titan [48526]
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I do not remember that.
Apr 17, 2014, 2:24 PM
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But I do remember that he said this:
"Christianity neither is, nor ever was a part of the common law."
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Campus Hero [13336]
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Re: I do not remember that.
Apr 17, 2014, 2:32 PM
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Seems he (and Madison after him) understood that free practice of religion in, around, or among gubmint facilities did not constitute congress making a law respecting religion or prohibiting its free exercise, which is, after all, what the federal gubmint must not do according to the Constitution.
Maybe there is a state law which prevents free exercise of religion in state gubmint buildings, but I am not aware of it.
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All-Time Great [88543]
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Hey man. This issue is brining everyone out of the woodwork.***
Apr 17, 2014, 3:19 PM
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Campus Hero [13336]
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I was checking on my homeboy Kelly Bryant.
Apr 17, 2014, 4:24 PM
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Everything good with you?
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All-Time Great [88543]
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Living the dream.***
Apr 17, 2014, 10:31 PM
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Associate AD [806]
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He also appropriated money from the treasury
Apr 17, 2014, 3:15 PM
[ in reply to Do you remember ] |
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to purchase Bibles for missionaries for the purpose of taking Christianity to the "Indians." He may have been a deist, but he was an inconsistent deist.
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Trainer [41]
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Re: People need to consider...
Apr 18, 2014, 7:18 PM
[ in reply to People need to consider... ] |
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Why should Dabo change who he is..and not be true to himself, to suit others. Players have a choice to attend Clemson. Do they not know the person Dabo is? Do you change who you are to satisfy someone who doesn't agree with you? Just asking.
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Associate AD [806]
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These people are a HATE group. Just like Neo Nazis or Klan
Apr 17, 2014, 1:28 PM
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I believe in calling a spade a spade. Look at their track record of attacking Christians. They should be treated like the hate group they are. They should have no credibility in the media or the courts.
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Ring of Honor [21022]
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Actually, there has been an increasing attack on Christian
Apr 17, 2014, 1:43 PM
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symbols and beliefs in America that is at the heart of this. If you study Nazi Germany as you use as an example in your post you will find the Nazi state did not welcome Christian ideals and began to create and support a religion more adaptable to its agenda. They did that through propaganda and groups that threatened believers. This watering down of religion can also be seen here in America--removing manger scenes that have been set up for decades in small time America, prohibiting people to pray in public meetings as had been done for DECADES, asking that crosses be taken down or prayers not offered at military burials, etc. etc. So, when groups like this attack Christians like Dabo they look more like what the Nazis did in the 1930's in Germany than the response of American Christians you have called Nazi.
Message was edited by: AThomas®
Message was edited by: AThomas®
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Tiger Titan [48526]
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You can find parallels with Nazis in a lot of areas of life.
Apr 17, 2014, 1:46 PM
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But until someone starts engaging in mass genocide and conquering other nations, maybe both sides should hold back on slinging around the comparison.
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Associate AD [806]
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You can find parallels
Apr 17, 2014, 2:06 PM
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between NAZIs and people in everyday life that have no significance at all. Some people dress like them. Some people have the same skin color. But the relevant point is that these people are like them in the most important way. They are a hate group bent on the elimination of those they hate.
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Rookie [18]
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Re: You can find parallels with Nazis in a lot of areas of life.
Apr 17, 2014, 2:22 PM
[ in reply to You can find parallels with Nazis in a lot of areas of life. ] |
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It seems to me if this organization had anything other than an agenda it would have a little more substantiated information from the people whose liberties they "aim to protect" than they have presented. What has happened in this country is Christianity has been labeled uncool. It is in that exact climate that Dabo throws caution to the wind and wears his beliefs on his sleeve and due to his stature he is a target. He can't hide from what he has already put out there. I dare anyone to argue that a recruit doesn't know where Dabo stands about religion before he ever commits to Clemson. The kids that are there knew what it was about when they agreed to come there. They come to watch practice. They sit in meetings as recruits. Yet they still come. You can have your opionion about religion. You can have your opionion about Dabo as a coach. But if Dabo is the Christian man he professes to be, that so many applaud him for being, and that others are attempting to persecute him for being then there is no way he is forcing religion on anyone. That is not how it works. If there are mandated trips to a church then I would like an explanation of why. What I won't do is assume that it is to force religion on individuals. My biggest problem is that people who are no longer within in the program and are no longer under this "pressure" are supporting the coach and refuting what this organization is claiming and yet no one is listening. Clemson is different man. That is what we are always saying. Kids know that when they go there. They weren't kidnapped. They aren't guarded by armed security. They are there because they choose to be, so why would anybody really worry about this. It is just another example of the de-Christianizing attempts of the world. Seperation of church and state my butt. Agenda.
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All-In [28802]
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All modern governments have done this to some extent
Apr 17, 2014, 2:20 PM
[ in reply to Actually, there has been an increasing attack on Christian ] |
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Yes, the Nazis did it, but they were forthrightly totalitarian.
The way our government, and other liberal democracies, do this is much more insidious. They advance a secularist agenda not by defining what kind of worship will be acceptable or what kind of worship will be illegal, but by claiming that you can worship however you want as long as it's a private matter. This, supposedly, enforces religious neutrality, but in effect it ends up pushing all religious expression out of public, except where expressions are in line with secular liberal goals. The state is attempting to resolve the competition between itself and any group that can challenge its authority by claiming that only independent authority any group ought to have is a private one.
You can be sure that this was not the intent of the Establishment Clause, but as liberalism has progressed, the freedom of religion set forth in the First Amendment has been radicalized (just like many of the other First Amendment rights) into a "freedom from religion." While such a drift is not inevitable, most liberal governments have adopted more radical views of liberty in which the state is seen as a guarantor of liberty FROM whatever burdens might be put on an individual by groups like the church (or family, or whatever).
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All-In [27366]
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So why are you acting upset.....now that you're in the
Apr 17, 2014, 2:06 PM
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"mindless majority?"
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Ring of Honor [21022]
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Why would the majority be mindless compared to the minority?
Apr 17, 2014, 2:13 PM
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The minority has a voice but it does not mean their voice should instantly be the "voice of reason."
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Ultimate Tiger [33235]
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From your OP:
Apr 17, 2014, 2:34 PM
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"Are you so insecure in your own religious beliefs that when someone or a group highlights a "potential" problem (and rightly so) you guys just freak out? Do you not trust your higher power enough to believe that everything is in their control?"
1. Couldn't more vehemently disagree with "(and rightly so)". Because a group consisting of 150 people in SC didn't like a picture (Nuk's baptism) or whatever else - all kinds of time, energy, & resources must be spent to satisfy what could be "potentially" a problem ? Do you understand the Pandora's box this opens up to frivolous inquisitions ?
Someone stated earlier that just because no one has said anything doesn't mean there isn't something wrong. And then someone countered who would come forward and risk the wrath of everyone - teammates, their coach, fans, etc.
How has no one come forward that is finished with Clemson then ? Not even disgruntled players that got dismissed or players that graduated or families of players that are no longer in the program ? Not once - and Dabo has been around for WAY long enough for that to come out. And even if one or 2 players said something about it - does that mean the entire culture of a group of 200 (times 6 or 7 seasons - heck - even TB was doing this same kinda stuff - so we could go back 15 years x 200 people - that's a group of THREE THOUSAND) changes to be more inclusive of 1 . . . or 2 . . . or 5 ? It is what is so screwed up with our country any more.
2. My God and what I believe teaches us not to be passive because there is a LOT at stake for each person's soul. And besides that, I believe Burke said "When bad men combine, the good must associate; else they will fall one by one, an unpitied sacrifice in a contemptible struggle" or more succinctly - All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing.
What is heard here is backlash from the MAJORITY over things of a frivolous nature that should not turn into a contemptible struggle.
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Expert [1214]
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Re: From your OP:
Apr 17, 2014, 4:31 PM
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"the rightly so" was meant to imply any group pointing out questionable activities should have the right to do so. Just because a group has contentious ideas and maybe even questionable actions does not mean they are unable to still provide reasonable thoughts on other issues.
Your next point- students +3/+4 years removed probably do not care. Also, you underestimate the peer pressure associated with athletes. I can only imagine what T-Net would do to that person.
I am a Christian, however, my understanding of the new testament regarding witnessing suggest we first lead by example, show non-believers the benefits of living for God and then seizing the opportunity to witness. Forcing or even innocently "manipulating" students may result in a short term spiritual transformation but I am afraid that this borderlines on forcing them to feel obligated (notice I did not say just force) to attended church,pray, etc. If they are not sincerely changing and just doing it because they want to make their coach proud, I think that is doing harm.
Do you not remember the Ken Hatfield situation?
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Dynasty Maker [3438]
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Re: Clearly many on the board today have completely lost their
Apr 17, 2014, 6:51 PM
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"Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances."
This is text of the First Amendment of the US Constituition. What constitutional right did Dabo infringe upon?
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Orange Blooded [2609]
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Re: Clearly many on the board today have completely lost their
Apr 20, 2014, 11:15 PM
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You are clearly stupid
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