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Legend [15492]
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Trump supporters, let me help you with something.
Aug 15, 2018, 6:27 PM
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I see endless references to "Socialism" on this board. Usually suggesting that Democrats favor it.
True Socialism is when the state owns everything, citizens own nothing.
No one is arguing for Socialism.
Democratic Socialism is completely and utterly different from Socialism.
Read a book every once in a while, will ya?
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Heisman Winner [119754]
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And you are utterly naive.....
Aug 15, 2018, 7:09 PM
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Dem Socialism leads to stronger “drugs”....didn’t know that, did you?
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CU Medallion [73569]
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I could write a book on this but yes that is short and to
Aug 15, 2018, 7:22 PM
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The Point. Libs will always invent something new to give away. Libs favorite new socialist already admitted she wanted capitalism eradicated. That sounds like real socialism to me. As we all know, capitalism is a 4 letter word to libs
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All-In [48078]
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Re: I could write a book on this but yes that is short and to
Aug 16, 2018, 1:39 AM
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How may people do you employ and how many businesses do you own? My guess is zero.
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Heisman Winner [111706]
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All-In [42197]
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Socialism is stupid.
Aug 15, 2018, 7:23 PM
[ in reply to And you are utterly naive..... ] |
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So is fascism.
I wish you Trumpies would learn that both ideologies are bad and denounce both.
(Yes, if you support Trumpism, you support fascism).
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Legend [15749]
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Cata, I'm not looking for a fight here, and I’m not a Trump
Aug 15, 2018, 11:13 PM
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fan, but what exactly is Trumpism and does it truly equate to fascism in your mind? I find the equivalency to be tough to process.
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All-In [42197]
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He embraces...
Aug 16, 2018, 8:16 AM
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The ideology mapped out in the 14 Points of Fascism. I can link that if you want but I imagine you'll want to explore on your own.
It's a valid concern if people are going to also keep crying "socialism!" with the left. The extreme right embraces fascism.
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Heisman Winner [111706]
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Legend [15492]
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Re: And you are utterly naive.....
Aug 16, 2018, 1:59 PM
[ in reply to And you are utterly naive..... ] |
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Dem Socialism leads to stronger “drugs”....didn’t know that, did you?
I stand corrected, I didn't know it was a 'gateway' ideology.
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All-In [31907]
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That actually sounds like the same kind of mental...
Aug 15, 2018, 7:15 PM
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contortions that many Trump supporters go through.
Democratic socialism is not completely and utter different than socialism. It is different, but not completely different. In theory, it's a merge of democracy and socialism. But rarely have I heard supporters of such an ideal be able to expound on the economic side past first and second level talking points.
This is especially true when it comes to the rhetoric in regards to corporations. Much of what is said has little to no chance to be workable in reality (and that's being generous...most of it is pure gibberish).
From the Democratic Socialist of America web site (https://www.dsausa.org/what_is_democratic_socialism)
"All over the world, wherever the idea of democracy has taken root, the vision of socialism has taken root as well—everywhere but in the United States." LOL
"Today, corporate executives who answer only to themselves and a few wealthy stockholders make basic economic decisions affecting millions of people. Resources are used to make money for capitalists rather than to meet human needs. We believe that the workers and consumers who are affected by economic institutions should own and control them."
Is this not code for government control of corporations? If not, how else would workers and consumers own and control corporations?
"While the large concentrations of capital in industries such as energy and steel may necessitate some form of state ownership, many consumer-goods industries might be best run as cooperatives."
Wonder if the person who wrote that line has ever worked in industry or thought about innovation. It'd be a lot more funny if it wasn't believed (or said to be believed) by so many in this country now.
To me, the folks who need to read a book are the fools falling for such an idea.
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Heisman Winner [119754]
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Flow, that was quite eloquent!
Aug 15, 2018, 7:20 PM
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And I bet felix’s only response, if he responds, will be a copy/pasta...
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All-In [47877]
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I guess he finally
Aug 15, 2018, 8:39 PM
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got rid of the hangover from my reception on Saturday
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Oculus Spirit [93682]
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Those who voted for 8 of 9 pubs backed by Trump...
Aug 15, 2018, 7:49 PM
[ in reply to That actually sounds like the same kind of mental... ] |
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evidently don't need a book. America isn't going socialist. You might see another Obama trying to redistribute wealth but you'll see another Tea Party throwing water on the fire.
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Oculus Spirit [83131]
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Examples of democratic type socialism:
Aug 16, 2018, 10:38 AM
[ in reply to That actually sounds like the same kind of mental... ] |
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1. Social Security
2. Medicare
3. Public Schools with written laws concerning non-attendance.
4. Mandatory auto insurance
5. Income Tax
6. Public police forces
7. Public infrastructure
8. Protected public parks
9.. The National Industrial Recovery Act of 1933 which provided for collective bargaining
10. The National Labor Relations Act of 1935 that required business to bargain in good faith with unions where a majority of workers supported the union.
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Orange Blooded [4976]
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Oculus Spirit [93682]
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Pokahinasz said she's hot for socialism.
Aug 15, 2018, 7:45 PM
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So did the other flip dizzy in NY and Sanders. Dems who Sander and flip dizzy campaigned for won in the primaries. No, you're wearing this one. Dems will run on a platform which is way too far left for middle America.
8 of 9 for those Trump endorsed. It should be a wild ride.
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Legend [18026]
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Not exactly...
Aug 15, 2018, 7:54 PM
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Oculus Spirit [93682]
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Established democrats are socialist.***
Aug 15, 2018, 8:05 PM
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Legend [18026]
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Whatever you say.***
Aug 15, 2018, 8:09 PM
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Rock Defender [54]
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I heard Pelosi is gonna make the army socialist.***
Aug 15, 2018, 8:15 PM
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Legend [15492]
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Oculus Spirit [93682]
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I was effing with de for missing the point.
Aug 17, 2018, 10:08 PM
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The point is that the dems running in the primaries are supporting of socialism. The established dems aren't going to rain on their campaigns by condemning socialism. That could be detrimental to them.
So, the established remain silent or nearly silent on the issue to allow the dems running to go hard at their districts and states while the republicans accuse them all of being socialist. Like you guys said, America isn't ready for pure socialism.
One of the reasons pubs hate Hillary is over the universal heathcare bill she tried to get pushed through congress when Bill was POTUS. Republicans have been accusing democrats of being socialist for decedes. Now they are facing a midterm where they can't openly deny it.
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CU Guru [1907]
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Re: Trump supporters, let me help you with something.
Aug 15, 2018, 9:20 PM
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Well if your model is Norway then you must also explain that they do have a high taxation rate and you will love a VAT for all goods and services, currently in the EU it ranges from 13%-28% depending on what it is being bought or done for you. Plus talk about fuel prices as they do not refine magic oil to get $6 a gallon gas, that owuld be taxes for that free stuff. Also one must discuss that Norway does have the largest Soveirgn Wealth Fund in the world , right at $1T to help finance that democratic socialism. Also how to do it here in the USA with a population of 340m while Norway has 5m citizens. I am not sure but estimates for free health care come in at 2.6T-3.4T a year, currently far more than the USA takes in total in income taxes on a federal level, we have not even run a cost on free University, Govt. job for all, housing as a human right or many other items in that agenda. What I do know is that in blue States where they wanted free health care the bills were tabled when the suddenly discovered it would cost 1.5 times the current total budget for said State on that one item.
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Hall of Famer [22948]
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Re: Trump supporters, let me help you with something.
Sep 5, 2018, 6:15 PM
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Read one study on healthcare insurance costs that almost made sense.
If the government offered healthcare, then employers would no longer need to provide this service. Instead, the equivalent cost would be 'taxed' to the employer and paid to the govt to support insurance cost increase.
The downfall is that government run healthcare would have a ton of rules applied and quickly become more inefficient (not that healthcare is efficient now).
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1st Rounder [616]
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Re: Trump supporters, let me help you with something.
Aug 15, 2018, 10:44 PM
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I’m a liberal yet I’m not sure I agree with your definition. Socialism is when the workers own the means of production. State owned corporations were always a poor facsimile of owning the means of production, because someone who works in textiles would be a very very small part owner of, say, the state-owned petroleum company. What's the logic in that?
A much more logical and direct arrangement would be employees owning the companies they work for. The state is only necessary for establishing the rules by which we would transition to a more socialist society. This could be as simple as tax policy. Any company that does not make employees part owners is taxed out the wazoo.
The advantage of this for socialism is that it dramatically decentralizes it. And free markets can still be allowed to function, along with profit-based management. And the advantage to society would be a more equal distribution of wealth.
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All-In [31907]
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Shouldn't the person originally taking the risk to start....
Aug 15, 2018, 11:03 PM
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a company be the one to own it and/or decide on the ownership structure?
Aren't you concerned about the impact on innovation if the person taking all of the risk to start something is forced to divest if it is successful.
That's the part I can't get past...how does a company get started in the first place in this kind of model?
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1st Rounder [616]
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Re: Shouldn't the person originally taking the risk to start....
Aug 16, 2018, 1:06 AM
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Not saying I have all the answers. But most IT startups have this arrangement already. The team members get paid in stock options and if the company does well they make lots of money. So I don't see a threat to innovation. I don't know how this model would work in all situations, but some percentage of employee ownership and profit sharing can be built into any business.
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All-In [31907]
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Well, in IT startups, the initial employees commonly...
Aug 16, 2018, 8:29 AM
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are taking a degree of risk as well and often stock options are offered as incentives to attract good employees who presumably already have a good job. But that model doesn't typically give ownership to every employee as the company grows.
Socialist...err democratic socialists have these as a fundamental part of their philosophy and I've never heard anyone be able to explain how it is possible without outright government ownership. Certainly someone claiming to be a democratic socialist would have worked this out in their head ahead of time?!?
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Orange Blooded [4976]
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Re: Shouldn't the person originally taking the risk to start....
Aug 17, 2018, 11:53 PM
[ in reply to Shouldn't the person originally taking the risk to start.... ] |
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You get a thumbs up for your intelligent and civil posit. You weren't arguing , just stating your understanding or lack of it and asking for clarification.I see someone or more had thumbed you down. I don't understand that no matter their position on the issue.
Message was edited by: orangecoloredglasses®
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110%er [6101]
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Yeah keep trusting what a democrat says.
Aug 16, 2018, 8:33 AM
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There is no "socialism lite". The concept of socialism requires full conversion to work properly. It's been tried, and it failed every time like clockwork. The very word socialism should trigger instant reference to slavery in any rational thinking persons mind. The goal of socialism is complete government dependence by those that want to control you. And it's resulted in the deaths of hundreds of millions of people over the centuries. We prefer freedom around here.
https://imgur.com/a/PQBiT9C
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Oculus Spirit [83131]
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Lulz.***
Aug 16, 2018, 10:20 AM
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Hall of Famer [24812]
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More like lost...***
Aug 18, 2018, 12:56 AM
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Oculus Spirit [97748]
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I've read a few
Aug 16, 2018, 10:09 AM
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Marx Das Kapital, Nietzsche, Burke, Hume, Locke, Hobbes, Rousseau, Cicero, Aquinas, Plato, Aristotle, Mein Kampf, Adam Smith, Descartes, Spinoza, Bacon, Kant, St. Augustine, and a couple dozen others....
And not a ###### one of them had any pictures. Man did that suck.
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All-TigerNet [10871]
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Try ‘Green Eggs and Ham’
Aug 17, 2018, 9:45 PM
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One of my favorites.
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All-In [31907]
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Yes, wasn't showing in my post history for.....
Aug 17, 2018, 4:05 PM
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Some reason. Was checking back to see if you had responded. You had not
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110%er [6101]
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