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Topic: It won't stop with Tillman...Calhoun would be next.
Replies: 29   Last Post: Jul 7, 2015 4:37 PM by: JD404®
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It won't stop with Tillman...Calhoun would be next.

[11]
Posted: Jul 6, 2015 10:26 PM
 

Even if out of sheer cowardice Clemson renamed Tillman Hall, that wouldn't be the end.

You'd start hearing calls to remove references to Calhoun.

Calhoun is regarded as the ideological father of secession.

The confederate flag was just an appetizer for this movement.

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leftists are feeling their oats now and want to

[8]
Posted: Jul 6, 2015 10:30 PM
 

rub people's noses in it. they live to bully people.

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Photobucket is holding my sig pic hostage. Screw them.


I think you meant to say re-renamed Tillman Hall.

[3]
Posted: Jul 6, 2015 10:40 PM
 

Sure there will be calls for more monument removal upcoming, but it will ebb, not grow. Nothing will rally the masses, on either side, quite like the flag has. For the most part people are just too lazy to spend time understanding the history and meaning of the people and names out there. It's really easy to hate a symbol - it's now and in your face. It's a lot harder to hate a person, especially one that lived 100 years ago that most know little about.

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I think the flag coming down will pretty


Posted: Jul 6, 2015 11:09 PM
 

much end anymore calls for things being removed. Like you said, the flag has a special rallying ability on both sides of the issue.


The advance of political correctness won't stop until

[7]
Posted: Jul 6, 2015 11:34 PM
 

something like the Reign of Terror from the French Revolution happens.

There are a million Robespierre's and Marat's trolling on the internet. Witch-hunts are coming. If you can't see how freedom of speech is crippled already... politicians are constantly walking on eggshells and literally nothing they say is heartfelt anymore. We have imprisoned ourselves in lies, thanks to the steady march of political correctness.

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Re: The advance of political correctness won't stop until


Posted: Jul 7, 2015 12:00 AM
 

Not sure how you define political correctness. Not sure how you get from political correctness to another French Revolution.


Re: The advance of political correctness won't stop until

[1]
Posted: Jul 7, 2015 12:37 AM
 

Political correctness, in a sense, is a redefinition of ethics and/or decorum based on the ever-increasing tendency to avoid offending anyone who is perceived as socially, legally or politically marginalized... even if everyone knows such behavior to be ridiculous, but they conform anyway, simply because other people conform and each individual fears isolation or negative judgement. It is a cousin of group-think, which is the tendency for most people to "go with the flow" even if it leads to dangerous consequences for themselves or others. It's especially pervasive because most people are barely capable of detecting it when it happens to them. This explains the ever rotating set of morals that every different generation is thoroughly convinced that they have it right.

To quickly draw a connection between social pressure and things like murder or genocide, look no further than Christopher Browning's book on why normal Germans participated in genocide 'Ordinary Men'... or the Millgram experiment.

The French Revolution started as an a push for wider political representation among non-nobles in France. This was considered entirely reasonable to the majority of Parisians. What transpired was a free-fall down the slippery slope of social norms and semantics driven by intense social pressure to conform. At first one could wear revolutionary zeal like a badge of honor... but it eventually became so important to say the right things that you could be "denounced" for saying anything that smacked of "counter-revolutionary" sentiment. Demagogues, genius's in the art of manipulating mass emotions, slowly but surely gained traction and eventually incited mass violence against nobles or the wealthy, based on hearsay and conjecture.

While it would have seemed extremely far-fetched to imagine tens of thousands of people being decapitated for 'saying the wrong thing' before the French Revolution started, it became business as usual for a while, until people finally became so scared for their lives that political correctness (minding very carefully that what you said didn't offend the contemporary political establishment) became, finally, less important. And the backlash was equally bloody, though shorter.

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Re: The advance of political correctness won't stop until


Posted: Jul 7, 2015 7:17 AM
 

Victim mentality in short....


Re: The advance of political correctness won't stop until

[2]
Posted: Jul 7, 2015 3:44 PM
 

> Political correctness, in a sense, is a redefinition
> of ethics and/or decorum based on the ever-increasing
> tendency to avoid offending anyone who is perceived
> as socially, legally or politically marginalized...
> even if everyone knows such behavior to be
> ridiculous, but they conform anyway, simply because
> other people conform and each individual fears
> isolation or negative judgement. It is a cousin of
> group-think, which is the tendency for most people to
> "go with the flow" even if it leads to dangerous
> consequences for themselves or others. It's
> especially pervasive because most people are barely
> capable of detecting it when it happens to them. This
> explains the ever rotating set of morals that every
> different generation is thoroughly convinced that
> they have it right.
>
> To quickly draw a connection between social pressure
> and things like murder or genocide, look no further
> than Christopher Browning's book on why normal
> Germans participated in genocide 'Ordinary Men'... or
> the Millgram experiment.


There is an alternate and equally reasonable argument that contradicts your very lucid and well thought out argument. Essentially, your theory can be stated another way. Firstly, your definition of political correctness is far too limited and frankly characterizes as trivial, speech or thought that runs contrary to the political norm. What you refer to as "politically correct" speech is in my view the very contradiction to group-think, not it's cousin. It is it's antithesis. Frankly,assigning the moniker "political correctness" to contrary speech is merely a mechanism to devalue and diminish it's value or reasonableness. No need to consider the thought itself as having intellectual, cultural, historical or any substantive value...it's merely "political correctness".

Your use of the French Revolution is eloquent but misinterpreted. Politically correct speech was to support the Monarchy. It was the speech that ruffled the least feathers and usually assured one's ability to stay out of the dungeon or lose his head. Robespierre merely replaced the monarchy. To support his own personal ambition and hold on the reins of power, the Great Terror began and heads were lopped off daily if one spoke against Robespierre or the revolution. In a sense Robespierre was the same as the Monarchy in that he used force to squelch "politically incorrect" speech. Politically "Correct" speech supports the norm rather than opposes it.

Browning's book is astonishing as it illuminates basic truths about humans and human behavior in groups. That being that human nature prevails in binding individuals to the norm. No matter how brutal or contrary to basic morality the "norm" is. The same could very easily be said for the Confederacy, slavery and segregation. It was the norm, enforced by power. One can easily use his c conclusions as a means to illustrate "common adherence" to what the entrenched white powers held as the norm in SC for 150 years. Among others, that being the homage paid to men who's primary goal was the subjugation of what they considered an inferior race. This is best illustrated by the Confederate VP Alexander Stevens in his Cornerstone speech: " Our new Government is founded upon exactly the opposite ideas; its foundations are laid, its cornerstone rests, upon the great truth that the negro is not equal to the white man; that slavery, subordination to the superior race, is his natural and normal condition." That is part of our "heritage".

It seems unreasonable to me that on the one hand one would pay "honor" our heritage while at the same time dismiss what our heritage actually was. "Well that was the norm then, but not now. It's just the way it was back then". If so, then why honor it now? It seems a lot like honoring the horse that came in dead last at the Kentucky Derby....'but he ran so nobly"

Now move forward 100 years to Jim Crow and Segregation and the "norm" that prevailed. Blacks were inferior, they sat at the back of the bus and were only allowed menial labor jobs. I was born in SC in 1954 and that was, in fact, the norm. Unfortunately the norm also included ridicule from the lowest to the highest levels of power and population. What was politically correct speech at the time was to maintain "separation of the races"....while at the same time Strom Thurmond's finest propaganda was "The white people of the South are the greatest minority in this nation. They deserve consideration and understanding instead of the persecution of twisted propaganda." This, the segregationist presidential candidate. That was political correctness at it's best because it was aimed at a white segregationist audience. It was the norm among white southerners.

When you misuse the term "political correctness" to diminish points of view that are at variance to the norm...you'll get a lot of TU's on this board. But what your actually proposing, as eloquently as you have, is a historically powerful weapon....the squelching and diminution of Free Speech.

Take aim and go ahead and rip me but I was fed and nursed on the same lie as everyone else...that the Confederacy was some romantic lost cause, a noble victory "ripped from the breast of the blessed south" by northern evil doers. It is a lie. It was ill-conceived rape and murder who's only goal was to perpetuate the white wealthy plantation owners. In other words money. In SC declaration of secession "slaves" or "slavery" is used 26 times. Yes, it was about states rights, a states right to keep slaves. That is our "heritage". Using the same logic shouldn't someone raise a memorial to US Army Col. John Chivington? He massacred upwards of 150 Arapahoe, 2/3 rds of whom were women and children at the Sand Creek Massacre. If not, why not? Isn't that our heritage as well? Can't we just honor the good things that Chivington did while ignoring the central act of his life?

You can't take down confederate memorials fast enough for my comfort. It is an ugly lie that we were taught from 1st grade to college....by a white supremacist ruling class. You can have your own opinion but you can't have your own facts. The Confederacy was premised on money and racism...nothing more.

In My Humble Opinion

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There's a difference b/t a lack of political correctness and


Posted: Jul 7, 2015 10:51 AM
 

out and out racism. Most things associated with political correctness hurt people's feelings. Racism can do very real damage. I'll let others argue about how much people's feelings should matter and how our country may or may not be turning into a bunch of sissies because that's an entirely different issue IMO.

Like or not, believe it or not, the confederate flag has become (perhaps always was) a racist and divisive symbol, and the removal of the flag, at least in my opinion, is not about political correctness, but part of the ongoing battle against racism.

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Re: I think the flag coming down will pretty


Posted: Jul 7, 2015 9:48 AM
 

OMG I really hope you are joking


Re: I think the flag coming down will pretty


Posted: Jul 7, 2015 10:01 AM
 

lol if you actually believe that

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null


What a surprise, My Shadow is here to


Posted: Jul 7, 2015 10:17 AM
 

bellylaugh and disagree. The big fish is that stupid flag. It isn't the monuments. You will see a long lull in anymore action or calls for more crap to come down.


Re: What a surprise, My Shadow is here to


Posted: Jul 7, 2015 11:52 AM
 

No one is your shadow little buddy. I post in response to a lot of people. I mostly respond to idiotic posts. It is not my fault you make a lot of idiotic posts.

Maybe you should work on that.

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Re: It won't stop with Tillman...Calhoun would be next.


Posted: Jul 6, 2015 10:55 PM
 

And then ole' Thomas Green himself. Hillary, anyone ?

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Re: It won't stop with Tillman...Calhoun would be next.

[2]
Posted: Jul 6, 2015 11:31 PM
 

I hope it is possible to have a civil conversation about this. I feel that people from time to time need to discuss the people and ideas they want to honor. Doing that would be a natural and good thing because much of human history is not good. And just because it's our history doesn't mean we have to pay homage to it. Sometimes the museum is the best place for figures that no longer reflect our current values.

I think it would be strange to find in their respective countries monuments to Stalin, Pol Pot, Hitler and other cruel characters in human history. Or buildings named after them.

It seems to me the South has never fully acknowledged the horrors of slavery, lynchings and Jim Crowe. Many of the names on buildings and the monuments we have are honoring people who no longer represent what we value, or at least I hope they don't. What they stood for caused a lot of suffering. It just seems natural to me stop paying homage to them.

So I guess I don't have a problem with changing any name or any discussion about who is worthy of honoring. I think that would be a good healthy discussion.

And I don't see it as a leftist agenda. I think as much as is possible the people and ideas we honor should reflect our shared values.

Do you think it is possible we could name buildings for people or ideas that would be more unifying and a better reflection of our current values?

Last I would add that this issue has also come up at the University of Texas. I like how they have decided to handle it. They are considering all buildings and monuments at one time rather than react to the next protest.


I don't know the history on Tilman but surely he doesn't


Posted: Jul 6, 2015 11:38 PM
 

compare to Hitler, Pol Pot and Stalin?

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Re: I don't know the history on Tilman but surely he doesn't


Posted: Jul 6, 2015 11:48 PM
 

He did brag about killing African Americans to restore white rule. He led lych mobs. Maybe not as bad as the worst, but still bad.


Inappropriate analogy

[2]
Posted: Jul 7, 2015 7:20 AM
 

To compare Tillman with Stalin (who killed 35-49 million people), Hitler (who killed 15-31 million people), and Pol Pot (who killed 1.7 million people) with Tillman (who was involved in a crowd massacre that killed 6-no individual responsibility has been affirmed) is inappropriate.

Keep in mind that Clemson would not exist without Tillman's efforts. One cannot reasonably be thankful that Clemson exists while denying any form of credit to one of its primary founders.

Also, as a principle, one cannot attribute only the virtues of a person and extol him as a hero much the same as one cannot attribute only the bad character traits and call him evil. If one wishes to assign Tillman as "evil," then Martin Luther King, Jr. belongs in the same category because of his confirmed adulterous affairs. We should either consider the person as a whole, in which case the non-virtuous traits must be counted, or we can simply appreciate and be thankful for the beneficial contributions that past individuals have made. In either case, the principles of judgment should be consistent. Heroism should not be applied inconsistently.


Re: Inappropriate analogy


Posted: Jul 7, 2015 8:34 AM
 

> To compare Tillman with Stalin (who killed 35-49
> million people), Hitler (who killed 15-31 million
> people), and Pol Pot (who killed 1.7 million people)
> with Tillman (who was involved in a crowd massacre
> that killed 6-no individual responsibility has been
> affirmed) is inappropriate.
>
> Keep in mind that Clemson would not exist without
> Tillman's efforts. One cannot reasonably be thankful
> that Clemson exists while denying any form of credit
> to one of its primary founders.
>
> Also, as a principle, one cannot attribute only the
> virtues of a person and extol him as a hero much the
> same as one cannot attribute only the bad character
> traits and call him evil. If one wishes to assign
> Tillman as "evil," then Martin Luther King, Jr.
> belongs in the same category because of his confirmed
> adulterous affairs. We should either consider the
> person as a whole, in which case the non-virtuous
> traits must be counted, or we can simply appreciate
> and be thankful for the beneficial contributions that
> past individuals have made. In either case, the
> principles of judgment should be consistent. Heroism
> should not be applied inconsistently.

MLK and his adulterous affairs compared to murder of innocent people? Many men can relate to adultery as wrong as it is. Those making the decisions may even have walked in the shoes of an adulterer. Not nearly as many on this thread or those making the decisions can relate to murdering because of someone's skin color. At no point in time was that ok.


Re: Inappropriate analogy


Posted: Jul 7, 2015 1:39 PM
 

Yet you infer that adultery is OK when perpetrated upon other innocent people. That has never been ok either. Stop the hypocrisy. Moreover, your premise that Tillman murdered innocent people remains a presumption. I have found that he "participated" in the massacre. I am not making any excuses for him or even defending him, just trying to stick to the facts.


Re: It won't stop with Tillman...Calhoun would be next.


Posted: Jul 7, 2015 12:22 AM
 

I say it should start with the state capitol. Right after the flag move across the street to usuck and rename their structures first. Then worry about the four corners of the state if you must. Doesn't make sense to attack Clemson University before cleaning up the "state university" in the state capitol

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that university actually owned slaves itself


Posted: Jul 7, 2015 8:25 AM
 

so I don't what level of apology or reparations will satisfy the cyber-lynch mob for that transgression.

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Is this just like the French Revolution in which a new calendar was

[2]
Posted: Jul 7, 2015 8:39 AM
 

unveiled with Latin names for the old month names to remove all religious and royalist influences from the calendar or like the Nazi or Communist Revolutions where the past and history was either twisted or wiped out to support the various authoritarian regimes?

Erasing the past is for those fearful it will contradict their message and those who will control the future and how you should think about things. Yes people were racist in the past. Yes people had hate in their hearts over many issues. Can we change them now? And there are things that are truly racist and hateful here in our present that require our attention to remove and destroy. Why is the past so important and the present and future so unimportant? Is it because the past is "low hanging fruit?" The past is a different country and making changes to what is history really has no great impact on the present or the future.

Will they rename Alexandria in Egypt because he was a bloody empire builder? Or will they destroy the Mayan pyramids because they conducted blood sacrifice. And the list could go on and on in all areas of the world. It should not be about the past. There is a reason to learn from it and to hopefully be more compassionate, more loving, and a more hopeful person. It is what is going in the future that counts. Just my 2 cents.


Message was edited by: AThomas®


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look, nobody CARES that Tillman was a racist. The reason


Posted: Jul 7, 2015 8:52 AM
 

people want his name off the building is because, like Dylan Roof, he also wandered into a church service and executed a black pastor. I mean, what is so freaking hard about this for some of you? It's been explained multiple times as to what the problem with Tillman is. The man wrote about it, for crying out loud.


Re: It won't stop with Tillman...Calhoun would be next.


Posted: Jul 7, 2015 10:32 AM
 

There is currently a movement at Yale to rename their residential Calhoun College which honors John C Calhoun. So, if Yale renames it, Clemson will not be far behind in being pressured to remove Calhoun's name here. Then on to Thomas Green Clemson as the next target.


What can we rename the Calhoun Mansion?


Posted: Jul 7, 2015 4:24 PM
 

Anyone else of historical significance live there later? You have to call it what it is.

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I do not like this idea.

[2]
Posted: Jul 7, 2015 3:58 PM
 

:(

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Did A. Vespucci own or sell slaves/ We can plan


Posted: Jul 7, 2015 4:30 PM
 

on changing the name of America if so? How far do we go with this? Let's dig back in history to find out who came up with the idea of keeping slaves and determine his/her nationality and transfer all blame to him or her.

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Here in Minneapolis, there's been some talk of renaming Lake Calhoun


Posted: Jul 7, 2015 4:37 PM
 

which, yes, was named for ol' John C. I don't think it'll happen, though.

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