Replies: 143
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All-In [42170]
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He's done. Sorry, Trump folks.
Nov 20, 2019, 12:15 PM
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You no longer have a defense. You can't argue there wasn't quid pro quo. Sondland has never been anti-Trump. This testimony is huge.
At this point, any defense of this will just look foolish. As if it didn't already.
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CU Guru [1405]
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Re: He's done. Sorry, Trump folks.
Nov 20, 2019, 12:19 PM
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Yeah it's bad. I don't know how the GOP comes back from this. I know they'll try hard, though.
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All-In [42170]
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I don't think they expected this to happen.
Nov 20, 2019, 12:22 PM
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It's backed them into a really tough corner now. Expect public support for impeachment to grow, and they're going to have to start weighing their political careers vs. loyalty to Trump.
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All-In [46825]
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Nice try. They'll hook onto "Trump said no QPQ"
Nov 20, 2019, 12:22 PM
[ in reply to Re: He's done. Sorry, Trump folks. ] |
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and won't let go of that. And won't say anything else about any other part of the testimony.
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Hall of Famer [22388]
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Trump lies so frequently(13 per day and rising) that he has
Nov 20, 2019, 12:35 PM
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no credibility. That is the problem that Trump has created for himself and his minions.
Nobody else believes him any more.
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110%er [7555]
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Re: Trump lies so frequently(13 per day and rising) that he has
Nov 20, 2019, 8:56 PM
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Who you calling nobody......Go Tigers!!!!!
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Heisman Winner [137949]
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It still requires at least minimal GOP defection in the
Nov 20, 2019, 12:22 PM
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Senate. I haven't seen any evidence of that happening...yet. They have a lot more to chew on now.
We're going to find out if American politics is truly no longer about right and wrong, and is now fully about winning and losing.
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All-In [42170]
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It will come down to public opinion.
Nov 20, 2019, 12:23 PM
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If voters overwhelming support impeachment--like they did Nixon's--they'll have no choice but to turn on him.
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Standout [347]
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This won’t change the minds of Trump’s base. They worship him.
Nov 20, 2019, 12:31 PM
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One of the few truths he has told was that he could shoot someone in the middle of the street and he wouldn’t lose any supporters. Plus, this will be spun in the echo chambers of Fox and Lyon’ Limbaugh, they won’t hear the substance of today’s testimony.
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Standout [347]
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Lyin’***
Nov 20, 2019, 12:32 PM
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Standout [347]
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Orange Blooded [4976]
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Re: This won’t change the minds of Trump’s base. They worship him.
Nov 20, 2019, 4:17 PM
[ in reply to This won’t change the minds of Trump’s base. They worship him. ] |
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That statement was made in jest with a little overconfidence because he knew his support was real enough to gain him the Presidency. He was right. Nobody took it seriously except dip sharts like you.
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Standout [347]
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Of course it wasn’t made to be taken seriously.
Nov 20, 2019, 7:11 PM
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But it’s scarily close to true. The “truth” I was mentioning was the sentiment, “dipshart.” He can do no wrong in his supporters eyes.
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Orange Blooded [4976]
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Re: Of course it wasn’t made to be taken seriously.
Nov 21, 2019, 10:28 AM
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Trump says and does things that make me feel a little embarrassed but I just have faith that enough see the wisdom in his policies and objectives to keep him in office. I don't worship him or think he does 'no wrong'. And yes, you are a third rate political commentator.
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All-In [48078]
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Re: It will come down to public opinion.
Nov 20, 2019, 12:40 PM
[ in reply to It will come down to public opinion. ] |
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The voters will never overwhelmingly support impeachment and out of office. Not happening. The Repub will overwhelmingly support Trump. It doesnt matter what we Dems think.
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All-In [42170]
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Re: It will come down to public opinion.
Nov 20, 2019, 12:47 PM
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Why not? It happened with Nixon. The public was originally split on it, then they overwhelmingly supported impeachment after the information started coming out. In fact, we are further ahead in support for impeachment than we were with Nixon at this time.
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All-In [48078]
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Re: It will come down to public opinion.
Nov 20, 2019, 1:15 PM
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Its a different world with different media. There will be absolutely no reason for Repubs to turn on him. Its not happening.
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Orange Blooded [4976]
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Re: It will come down to public opinion.
Nov 21, 2019, 10:33 AM
[ in reply to Re: It will come down to public opinion. ] |
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The public supported Nixon's impeachment because of the cover-up, including the 18 (?) minutes of erased Oval Office tapes. Until then he was in the clear. Nothing in this case even sniffs that air and won't. Let it go.
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Orange Blooded [4976]
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Re: It will come down to public opinion.
Nov 20, 2019, 4:19 PM
[ in reply to Re: It will come down to public opinion. ] |
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I don't agree with your politics but at least you have a brain, which is more than I can say for buddies on here.
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Heisman Winner [137949]
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YOU SAY THINGS I AGREE WITH THEREFORE YOU ARE
Nov 20, 2019, 5:25 PM
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SMART AND THOSE OTHER PEOPLE ARE DUMB.
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Orange Blooded [4976]
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Re: YOU SAY THINGS I AGREE WITH THEREFORE YOU ARE
Nov 21, 2019, 10:35 AM
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Not exactly sugar plum.
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Hall of Famer [20541]
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Re: It will come down to public opinion.
Nov 20, 2019, 12:41 PM
[ in reply to It will come down to public opinion. ] |
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I keep saying this - the Democrats actually don't need 20 Senators to defect publicly.
They just need three who are willing to cross the line and vote for a private vote.
I'll give you Mitt Romney, and potentially Susan Collins and Lisa Murkowski...or any of several others who aren't standing again until 2024 - you know, like Ted Cruz, who still owes Trump bigly for basically calling his dad the Second Gunman On The Grassy Knoll.
They do that and the vote is basically 80-20 or even 85-15 to convict if GOP insiders like Jeff Flake are remotely correct.
The thing that keeps sticking in my head is the thought that institutions almost always defend their power. And Senators take the long view anyhow; they think in terms of 6-year cycles.
The ones like Lindsey Graham who are standing in 2020 certainly won't cause a (public) stir, but a private vote is something altogether different.
The Senate has that power. The rules are what the Senate decides they are. And they might just take a look at the public opinion trends and the prospect of losing the Senate in 2020 and decide it's time to remind the President emphatically just how much power the Senate actually does have, if they only decide to exert it....
I dunno. They've been meek up until now...but will they stay that way?
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CU Medallion [56087]
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McConnell will decide they can't have an impeachment hearing
Nov 20, 2019, 12:56 PM
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in an election year.
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All-TigerNet [11199]
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I think Cruz could tip the scales all by himself, the
Nov 20, 2019, 1:11 PM
[ in reply to Re: It will come down to public opinion. ] |
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guy is off the charts brilliant and has the respect of many in the GOP, especially when it comes to constitutional matters. And if his philosophy remains concerning the separation of powers, he would win a lot of arguments with his colleagues that think the contrary.
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CU Guru [1428]
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Re: It will come down to public opinion.
Nov 20, 2019, 11:26 PM
[ in reply to Re: It will come down to public opinion. ] |
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Susan Collins a coward. She'll never do the right thing. She already had that chance and put a rapist on the Supreme Court...
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Hall of Famer [22388]
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We are up to 70% think he should be impeached. 51% think
Nov 20, 2019, 12:31 PM
[ in reply to It still requires at least minimal GOP defection in the ] |
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he should be impeached AND removed from office.
As these public hearings move forward and more corroborating and damning testimony emerges and the number who support impeachment AND removal from office grows to 55% and more, it will become politically untenable for them to continue to support the president and get re-elected.
Things are changing rapidly.
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All-In [48078]
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Re: We are up to 70% think he should be impeached. 51% think
Nov 20, 2019, 12:43 PM
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51% say impeached and out of office. Over 90% of that number are Dems. That 51% is meaningless.
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All-In [28802]
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You need basically a super-majority in favor of removal***
Nov 20, 2019, 12:51 PM
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CU Guru [1405]
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Re: It still requires at least minimal GOP defection in the
Nov 20, 2019, 12:58 PM
[ in reply to It still requires at least minimal GOP defection in the ] |
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It all depends on public opinion. People seem to think Republican politicians would never turn on Trump, but they'd throw him under the bus the second he's not valuable to them anymore.
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All-In [48078]
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Re: It still requires at least minimal GOP defection in the
Nov 20, 2019, 1:27 PM
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Public opinion will just go down party lines. Repubs arent turning on him.
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CU Medallion [60043]
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All-In [38514]
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LOL, post-truth America doesn't care about facts.
Nov 20, 2019, 12:24 PM
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This is just the beginning.
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Orange Blooded [4976]
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Re: LOL, post-truth America doesn't care about facts.
Nov 20, 2019, 4:21 PM
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Just the beginning of what? The Dems have shot their wad.
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Rock Defender [53]
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Four times now
Nov 20, 2019, 4:24 PM
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110%er [8984]
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trump needs to call broken arrow
Nov 21, 2019, 10:38 AM
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with the enemy inside the perimeter
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All-In [38514]
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Legend [17289]
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Rudy Rudy Rudy do you love me. Rudy Rudy Rudy do you care?
Nov 20, 2019, 12:30 PM
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Someone needs to take a bullet for the Boss.
Regardless the Senate won’t convict.
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All-In [48078]
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Re: Rudy Rudy Rudy do you love me. Rudy Rudy Rudy do you care?
Nov 20, 2019, 12:44 PM
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Its almost time for Trump to say he hardly knew Rudy and that he never really liked Rudy.
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All-In [48078]
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Re: He's done. Sorry, Trump folks.
Nov 20, 2019, 12:38 PM
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So why does it matter what Sondland says? We all know what Trump did. It was shady. The Repubs in the Senate still wont get on board.
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Rock Defender [53]
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Re: He's done. Sorry, Trump folks.
Nov 20, 2019, 4:12 PM
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Orange Blooded [4976]
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Re: He's done. Sorry, Trump folks.
Nov 20, 2019, 4:24 PM
[ in reply to Re: He's done. Sorry, Trump folks. ] |
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'What Trump did' wasn't shady at all. Dozens of Obama administration appointees etc., should've been jailed or worse already. Schiff deserves the death penalty without a doubt.
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All-TigerNet [11199]
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While Sondland's testimony was certainly pivotal and
Nov 20, 2019, 12:46 PM
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solidified the evidence in concrete that he violated his oath of office, we still have to get over the hurdle in the Senate. When will GOP senators understand that the party is better off without Trump? The country, as well.
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Orange Blooded [4976]
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Re: While Sondland's testimony was certainly pivotal and
Nov 21, 2019, 10:44 AM
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Just stop with the juvenile repetition of falsehoods. Trump has absolutely not violated his oath of office, obstructed justice or engaged in a cover-up of either.
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All-In [28802]
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The defense is just that this isn't worth impeaching over
Nov 20, 2019, 12:50 PM
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Doesn't rise to the level of "high crimes and misdemeanors," and isn't a big enough deal to have the president removed. And the thing is, as bad as this is, and as good a reason as it is to remove Trump's incompetence, lots of people are so cynical that they can't take this seriously enough as a reason for impeachment. Everything is about partisanship to them, so all allegations of wrongdoing are just cynical parts of the way they think the game of politics is played. To them, it really is a game where you do anything to try to beat the other side, so it's all fine. Whatever.
I'd be fine with Trump being removed at this point, but I just think we're in the midst of a such a cynical, partisan era in politics that it would be impossible to convince enough people to make that happen. If it did happen, it would be seen as illegitimate and partisan.
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Heisman Winner [137949]
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I believe all of this to be accurate.
Nov 20, 2019, 12:56 PM
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Would probably be a different situation/atmosphere if the Mueller investigation never happened. That solidified the idea that Democrats will do anything to remove Trump, and delegitimizes anything that occurs after for a significant segment of voters.
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Hall of Famer [22388]
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Like the guy who gets a 2nd DUI, The Mueller Report shows
Nov 20, 2019, 1:00 PM
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that the Ukraine scheme and obstruction of justice is right in Trump's wheelhouse.
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Rock Defender [53]
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No this is more like the guy that files
Nov 20, 2019, 4:27 PM
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Oculus Spirit [81061]
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I think there is merit in that.
Nov 20, 2019, 1:13 PM
[ in reply to I believe all of this to be accurate. ] |
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There are several clips out there of Dems saying that they MUST impeach Trump...even before he went into office.
Like Tiggity, I think the controlling of who is in office (by either party) by impeachment is a larger threat to the US than Donald Trump ever could be.
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Rock Defender [53]
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All-TigerNet [11199]
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And that is an easy package to sell his constituents.
Nov 20, 2019, 1:03 PM
[ in reply to The defense is just that this isn't worth impeaching over ] |
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Objectively, it IS as bad as it sounds and a right reason to remove him from office. Extorting a weak, emerging country with congressionally approved military aid for personal, political gain is absolutely a violation of the office. Even Nixon didn't go so far as to involve foreign governments in his paranoid psychosis.
I think the only way to get through to voters will be if some Republicans defect and add weight to the already credible evidence.
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Rock Defender [53]
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What credible evidence is that?
Nov 20, 2019, 2:01 PM
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All-TigerNet [11199]
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So every single foreign policy expert/advisor involved,
Nov 20, 2019, 2:08 PM
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even the ones who have first hand knowledge are wrong and Trump is right?
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Rock Defender [53]
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Not one has provided any conclusive evidence
Nov 20, 2019, 2:28 PM
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110%er [7026]
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I've heard nothing but a lot of "I feel/felt"
Nov 20, 2019, 2:35 PM
[ in reply to So every single foreign policy expert/advisor involved, ] |
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I "believe/believed".. Feelings aren't evidence of anything. I'm not an all in "Trumpster" by any stretch of the imagination, but these "hearings" are a joke.
They aren't changing the minds of either side. And the people in the middle just see it as politicians grandstanding and not doing anything for the American people.
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All-TigerNet [11199]
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Quothe the Sondland
Nov 20, 2019, 3:52 PM
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"Giuliani's requests were a quid pro quo" end quote.
Support illegal activity from your President if you like, but it is at the expense of your country.
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Rock Defender [53]
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Re: Quothe the Sondland
Nov 20, 2019, 4:15 PM
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All-TigerNet [11199]
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There were good people on both sides....
Nov 20, 2019, 4:26 PM
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Your powers of listening, reasoning, and understanding are nonexistent. But your ability to be duped is AMAZING!
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Rock Defender [53]
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Re: There were good people on both sides....
Nov 20, 2019, 5:35 PM
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All-TigerNet [11199]
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Re: There were good people on both sides....
Nov 20, 2019, 6:03 PM
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Apologies if you were offended. It was more of an observation.
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Hall of Famer [20541]
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Re: The defense is just that this isn't worth impeaching over
Nov 20, 2019, 1:05 PM
[ in reply to The defense is just that this isn't worth impeaching over ] |
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Doesn't rise to the level of "high crimes and misdemeanors," and isn't a big enough deal to have the president removed. And the thing is, as bad as this is, and as good a reason as it is to remove Trump's incompetence, lots of people are so cynical that they can't take this seriously enough as a reason for impeachment. Everything is about partisanship to them, so all allegations of wrongdoing are just cynical parts of the way they think the game of politics is played. To them, it really is a game where you do anything to try to beat the other side, so it's all fine. Whatever.
I'd be fine with Trump being removed at this point, but I just think we're in the midst of a such a cynical, partisan era in politics that it would be impossible to convince enough people to make that happen. If it did happen, it would be seen as illegitimate and partisan.
Maybe...but the reality is that the Democrats aren't "overturning the results of the last election."
Their reward, should they actually succeed in impeaching Trump: Mike Pence. Who is an actual, dyed-in-the-wool conservative - fiscally, internationally, religiously - and who will seem utterly sane and grounded in comparison to His Orangeness. All he has to do to look like a world-beater in comparison is not tweet dumb stuff and act vaguely presidential, and maybe start doing daily White House briefings again, and he'll look like an All-Star.
To the point, actually, the Democrats might just get Pence re-elected in 2020. Look no further than Dabo to see how well an interim appointment can seize the moment, you know?
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Hall of Famer [22388]
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That's why Trump was so wise to implicate Pence and throw
Nov 20, 2019, 1:07 PM
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him under the bus. Republicans can't vote to remove Trump with Pence in hot water over his involvement in this scheme.
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All-In [28802]
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Well, this is wrong
Nov 20, 2019, 1:15 PM
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1
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Oculus Spirit [81061]
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Oculus Spirit [97727]
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Perjury is only a reason to be disbarred in Arkansas
Nov 20, 2019, 1:07 PM
[ in reply to The defense is just that this isn't worth impeaching over ] |
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Not an impeachable offense. When Biden admitted to a quid pro quo while VP, he could have been impeached, but wasn't. Again, unless something major NEW happens, nothing to see here. I honestly thought there would be some kind of bombshell. Well, not really. You guys waited two years for Mueller's bombshell. Never materialized. I think the American people are smarter than the average politician.
We do quid pro quo's around the world every day. You don't just hand out $50 billion a year to #### near every country on Earth and expect nothing in return. That's the whole reason we give so much, to promote our interests.
The Senate is not going to buy this. The people are not. I wouldn't want Barak Obama impeached over this if it was him. I didn't want Clinton impeached over perjury about a bj. I'm non-partisan here. Stick a fork in us if this succeeds, without something more substantial. Because then it really won't matter who wins the next election. If every time Congress aligns to one party, both houses, and the President is of another party, there WILL BE IMPEACHMENT. Every. Time.
Banana republic stuff there. Which is why this won't work. It's more dangerous than Trump in the long run.
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All-In [28802]
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Not even sure what you're talking about with Biden***
Nov 20, 2019, 1:14 PM
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Oculus Spirit [97727]
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I know. No one ever mentions that Biden admitted that while
Nov 20, 2019, 1:42 PM
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VP he did exactly what Trump is now accused of doing. But in as specific and direct a way as one could imagine. Here, watch this hard-to-find video. Talking about firing the Ukranian prosecutor who was investigating the company where his son was on the board and pocketed millions knowing absolutely nothing about oil and natural gas.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O_xXx0yUvSw
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Heisman Winner [137949]
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All-In [28802]
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If that's what he's talking about...
Nov 20, 2019, 1:25 PM
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then it's just more of the cynical partisan silliness. There was international and Ukrainian pressure to remove the Ukrainian prosecutor at that time because he wasn't being hard enough on corruption. This Trump-centric theory that the prosecutor was removed because he was being too hard on corruption is foolish. Maybe Biden was the wrong person to head that campaign because of the appearance of a conflict, but you have to think everything revolves around Trump to think the removal was just about Hunter Biden and Burisma.
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Oculus Spirit [97727]
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I think nothing revolves around Trump when I see the son of
Nov 20, 2019, 1:54 PM
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the VP on the board of a foreign energy company for literally no other reason than being the VP's son, then the VP demands the person investigating that foreign company is fired or aid is withheld, because he WASN'T doing a good job investigating corruption?
And for a prosecutor so "WEAK", he was at least actually investigating the company, and Biden sure seemed adamant he be fired because he wasn't doing a "weak" job investigating corruption? Please. That is the excuse.
But the whole point is the quid pro quo. That's exactly what Biden did. It happens all the time, in all administrations, party notwithstanding.
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All-In [28802]
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Why didn't it bother you when it happened?***
Nov 20, 2019, 1:58 PM
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All-In [40344]
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not in a tin foil hat conspiracy way
Nov 20, 2019, 2:17 PM
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i have a feeling that this wasn't making national headlines among other things going on.
I've never paid attention to our foreign policy with the Ukraine until now. I know that's a me problem.
I just feel like it probably wasn't being shoved down our throats by the media like other stories are. I could be wrong and be the guy living under a rock.
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Legend [18024]
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Why do you continue to believe the lie?
Nov 20, 2019, 2:36 PM
[ in reply to I think nothing revolves around Trump when I see the son of ] |
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1.) US policy, EU, IMF, and even Republican Senators all pushed to have Shokin(Ukraine Prosecutor) fired.
https://www.vox.com/2019/10/3/20896869/trump-biden-ukraine-2016-letter-portman-johnson
2.) Shokin wasn't investigating Burisma when Biden was spearheading getting rid of Shokin
https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/politics/2019/10/03/what-really-happened-when-biden-forced-out-ukraines-top-prosecutor/3785620002/
"Burisma Holdings was not under scrutiny at the time Joe Biden called for Shokin's ouster, according to the National Anti-Corruption Bureau of Ukraine, an independent agency set up in 2014 that has worked closely with the FBI.
Shokin's office had investigated Burisma, but the probe focused on a period before Hunter Biden joined the company, according to the anti-corruption bureau.
The investigation dealt with the Ministry of Ecology, which allegedly granted special permits to Burisma between 2010 and 2012, the agency said. Hunter Biden did not join the company until 2014."
3.) Quid Pro Quos do happen in foreign policy, but not for personal political reasons like with what Trump is accused of. We can't allow that precedent to be set.
4.) I know you'll still be convinced Biden did what you say he did (despite reality), but I wonder what would it actually take to convince you otherwise? When you are this conditioned to believe something as you and others are with this Biden story, do you work on reflex or do you actually take time to consider why you believe what you believe?
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All-In [28802]
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It's because this is one of those born yesterday issues
Nov 20, 2019, 2:39 PM
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Most people only know about it because it's been used as a defense of what Trump did. They see Biden withholding funds to get Ukraine to do something, and they see a formal similarity. So they don't bother to look into what was actually going on at the time.
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Legend [18024]
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But when facts are pointed out they continue w/the lie
Nov 20, 2019, 2:47 PM
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Maybe that's to be expected--from both political sides--when things are as partisan and cynical as they are (and you described accurately in this thread).
As Trump would say, "Sad!"
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Oculus Spirit [97727]
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Because I didn't believe the last lie with Russian collusion
Nov 20, 2019, 3:37 PM
[ in reply to Why do you continue to believe the lie? ] |
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I waited two years for the evidence. There was none. Now I'm waiting on something more than what happened here. A country as infamous for corruption as Ukraine has the son of a sitting US VP on a board of their largest company who doesn't know jack about oil or natural gas, making millions. I'd want that investigated. So did Trump. And he leveraged US aid. Fine. Biden previously leveraged US aid to the corrupt country known for corruption who's largest business happens to have his son on the board.
This isn't impeachable. Well, it is in the House. Not in the Senate. Same story, 20 years later. Knew it would happen. And it will happen again and again until we reach banana republic status.
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Legend [18024]
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Does the timing or method Trump took not make you wonder?
Nov 20, 2019, 4:36 PM
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Why wait until Biden is running? Why send your personal attorney instead of going through state dept or justice department (btw, Giuliani is now being federally investigated)? Why make it clear you need a public declaration that Biden is going to be investigated before releasing the military aid? Why was Zelensky set to make the announcement on CNN only to back out once the aid was released? Why were so many who listened in on the phone call worried about what they heard? Where else has Trump gone after corruption in regards to giving arms/money?
Investigate Biden all you want, but it doesn't change the circumstances and reasons Trump withheld military aid to Ukraine and if you allow this type of behavior to go unpunished (as the GOP seems they want to do) then we certainly will be heading towards a more authoritarian style of government.
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All-In [40344]
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To point #2
Nov 20, 2019, 4:28 PM
[ in reply to Why do you continue to believe the lie? ] |
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I have a chicken and egg type question (s)
The company that Biden joined had already been investigated. A VP’s son joins the board of said company and its kosher?
I’m on mobile with a phone about to die, (so I’m not looking at which came first) but he joins the company the same time the anti corruption group is formed. Is that interesting timing or just coincidental?
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Standout [347]
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“I think the American people are smarter than the average politician.”
Nov 20, 2019, 1:23 PM
[ in reply to Perjury is only a reason to be disbarred in Arkansas ] |
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The American people elected Trump. That’s shows you how dumb they are. The movie Idiocracy is playing out in front of our eyes.
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Orange Blooded [4976]
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Re: “I think the American people are smarter than the average politician.”
Nov 21, 2019, 10:54 AM
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You're just wrong again. Actually the American people are smarter than politicians give them credit for. Trumps election proves that.
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All-In [40344]
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I was just thinking that of all things to down for
Nov 20, 2019, 1:09 PM
[ in reply to The defense is just that this isn't worth impeaching over ] |
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This one is dumb.
Maybe I don’t understand the political climate in Ukraine at all, but to lose your presidency over something like this seems crazy to me.
It’s like getting divorced from your wife because she doesn’t clean up her socks and meanwhile she’s actually doing some serious stuff.
I’m not on the cynical and fatigued side necessarily, just the fact that this was a dumb thing for Trump to do to finally be the one that sticks. If that makes sense.
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All-In [28802]
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Maybe that's "Trump fatigue"
Nov 20, 2019, 1:13 PM
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He bumbles around so much that it just seems like none of his bumbles are a big deal. I think this is the thing that's most likely to stick because it's just so blatant. I agree that it's stupid, but what's stupid about it is the way Trump went about things. A more competent person could've gone about this in a different way and probably avoided any scandal at all. Or, maybe a less narcissistic person wouldn't have been so insecure about his political rivals. But we've got Trump, so here we are.
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All-TigerNet [11199]
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Simplify it. Trump jeopardized US
Nov 20, 2019, 1:20 PM
[ in reply to I was just thinking that of all things to down for ] |
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and Ukraine(an emerging weaker country we agreed to protect) national security for his own benefit. He put his own personal interests above the country's. And if allowed to stay in office, he will do it again...with probably more disastrous consequences.
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Oculus Spirit [81061]
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jeopardized?
Nov 20, 2019, 1:27 PM
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As typical..this seems a bit far left of reality.
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All-In [28802]
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Depends how important you think supporting Ukraine is***
Nov 20, 2019, 1:29 PM
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Oculus Spirit [81061]
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EIther way one may think, did we not support Ukraine?***
Nov 20, 2019, 1:30 PM
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All-TigerNet [11199]
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We did after Trump knew he got caught.***
Nov 20, 2019, 2:04 PM
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All-TigerNet [11199]
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Should've said, when Mulvaney realized they got caught.
Nov 20, 2019, 2:06 PM
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Trump doesn't even know what day it is, much less realize the difference in wrong and right.
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Rock Defender [53]
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That's when you lose credibility
Nov 20, 2019, 2:14 PM
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All-In [48078]
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Re: That's when you lose credibility
Nov 20, 2019, 2:18 PM
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He wasnt really quick on his feet. He said nutty things that you fell for. He was extreme, but nothing witty or thought provoking. Hillary was just a bad candidate. It was the perfect storm for Trump.
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Rock Defender [53]
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And you lose credibility saying that I fell for
Nov 20, 2019, 2:25 PM
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Heisman Winner [137949]
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Are we still talking about the guy who utters provable,
Nov 20, 2019, 2:30 PM
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demonstrable lies nearly every single time he opens his mouth in public? That's the guy who excellent at remembering facts and figures? THAT guy?
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Rock Defender [53]
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Again, you are equating statements that are usually
Nov 20, 2019, 2:34 PM
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Heisman Winner [137949]
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So intentional lies are more honorable than...confusion?
Nov 20, 2019, 2:51 PM
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Do I have it right?
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Rock Defender [53]
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No you still don’t
Nov 20, 2019, 3:25 PM
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Heisman Winner [137949]
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You want examples because you believe he doesn't lie?
Nov 20, 2019, 4:02 PM
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I'll give you some links, but if you're just simply not acknowledging that Trump intentionally lies almost every time he's in front of a microphone, I won't bother. This is a pretty easy one.
Ah, fuggit. Here's his roughly 14,000 falsehoods since his inauguration.
https://projects.thestar.com/donald-trump-fact-check/
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All-TigerNet [11199]
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That much data might break Tnet's servers. LOL.***
Nov 20, 2019, 4:21 PM
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Legend [18024]
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Rock Defender [53]
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Ahh so now we are policing spelling and grammar
Nov 20, 2019, 4:10 PM
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Legend [18024]
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Your argument was "he (Trump) definitely isn't confused."
Nov 20, 2019, 4:24 PM
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that's your words.
Your criteria for this statement seemed to be misstatements as shown by your pointing out of Biden's misstatement on what state he was in.
I post misstatements and evidence of Trump being treated like a toddler by his own staff and all that you see is me policing spelling and grammar?
Something tells me you aren't being genuine in your arguments.
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Rock Defender [53]
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No I am and I’m sure you believe you are as well
Nov 20, 2019, 4:36 PM
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Legend [18024]
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I also posted clips of trump talking.
Nov 20, 2019, 4:44 PM
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Why didn't you bring those up?
Gee, I wonder where you got the idea that the NYT and WAPO are biased. Also, just curious, what sources are not biased in your opinion?
Oh, I forgot another example to bring up:
Clearly a sane thing to do for someone clearly of his right mind.
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Rock Defender [53]
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I am the first to admit that Trump is flawed
Nov 20, 2019, 4:53 PM
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Legend [18024]
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Glad we can both agree Trump is flawed.***
Nov 20, 2019, 5:02 PM
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All-In [48078]
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Rock Defender [53]
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Part of his following is cult-like
Nov 20, 2019, 3:21 PM
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Standout [347]
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Ya he does a great job of remembering facts, like where his dad
Nov 20, 2019, 7:18 PM
[ in reply to And you lose credibility saying that I fell for ] |
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was born. And then he continued to be great at remembering it the next few times it came up after he was corrected...
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All-In [28802]
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LOL. They're both confused.
Nov 20, 2019, 2:42 PM
[ in reply to That's when you lose credibility ] |
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But Trump is a true ratard when it comes to leading an administration and policy.
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Standout [347]
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He may be quick on his feet with insults and attacks,
Nov 20, 2019, 7:15 PM
[ in reply to That's when you lose credibility ] |
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but he is not quick on his feet with critical thought. Even when he tries to plan, which rarely happens, it falls flat. He thought changing a map with a sharpie would make people believe he was right.
And yes, he won the nomination when the party was very fractured, and then won the election against someone a large portion of the country, even independents, hated.
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Oculus Spirit [81061]
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All-TigerNet [11199]
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Do you really not know? You're a pretty straight shooter
Nov 20, 2019, 4:12 PM
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IE, so I don't think you're being snarky.
1)Lack of military aid when they are fighting a territorial war against the Russians. The "but Obama only gave them blankets" defense doesn't work here because the previous Ukraine administration under Poroshenko was corrupt af, and the Ukranian people did the right thing and voted his a s s out. Obama probably still should've provided military aid though.
2)If we stop providing military aid to Ukraine, Russia (Putin) knows this and can run his tanks as far as he wants to in Ukraine. Their soldiers die.
3)If Ukraine does not get military aid and a show of support from the US (a white house visit would work), citizen support for a new Ukrainian president would wain in a country we are trying to help as an ally against Russia. If his citizens don't support him...chaos...Putin wins, again.
4)The Crowdstrike story, Burisma wrongdoing, and Ukranian meddling in the 2016 are all propaganda put forth by Putin. Proven so by the testimony of Yovanovich and the retraction of testimony by the former Ukraine attorney general. So when Trump pushes this narrative and tries to make it fact, he is destabilizing Ukraine's new government that is dedicated to ending Poroshenko's corruption and actively supporting Putin's propaganda.
I can keep going if you need it.
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Oculus Spirit [81061]
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We never stopped sending aid to them.
Nov 20, 2019, 4:44 PM
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1) I never mentioned Obama. 2) We never stopped sending them money. 3) See #2. All the rest, to a president that I read on here daily is hated world wide..would be meaningless. 4) That's a pretty giant leap of logic that the Crowdstrike nonsense will destabilize any countries government.
What's with Dems and all the hyperbole?? You're saying that mere words by the Liar in Chief ($1 to @cChuckston T-Man is going to destabilize a country?
C'mon man..pump the brakes on all that stuff.
Just like Catahoula, I get it. WE ALL GET IT. You don't like the guy. But making up that nonsense does nothing to make you even seem beleivable. You blame Trump for the same thing, and you say he's an idiot (daily). How are you, or the rest of anyone who is making up this farcicle hyperbole any more credible than him?
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All-TigerNet [11199]
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There is not a bit of hyperbole in any of my statements.
Nov 20, 2019, 5:06 PM
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We can disagree and that is fine, I stated what the ambassadors and other diplomats(they are the experts) stated in their testimony and all of them were emphatic about the effect on Ukrainian national security as a result of Trump's actions. Don't believe me? Believe them.
And of course I don't like him, he's taking a giant shid in the highest office in the country and is proud of himself for it. His kind of behavior should be acceptable to no one. What if the crazy democrat version of Trump gets in office in the future? I know you don't want that...I don't either. I think Trump should be the benchmark for what/why/how/who a President shouldn't be.
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Legend [18024]
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We stopped the aid for 55 days.
Nov 20, 2019, 5:10 PM
[ in reply to We never stopped sending aid to them. ] |
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The White House released the aid after the whistleblower and investigations started.
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Oculus Spirit [81061]
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Did they get the money, or not?
Nov 20, 2019, 5:28 PM
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And I'm not sue why I'm concerned about giving Ukraine money for fighting basically a back door war with Russia.
When did the dems become such warhawks?
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Legend [18024]
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Only after the whistleblower/investigations started.
Nov 20, 2019, 5:42 PM
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The need (Ukraine faces threat from Russia) for the aid was the leverage Trump held to force Ukraine to do him a favor (public announcement of investigating Biden/personal benefit) and he held the aid for 55 days. Zelensky, in turn, was set to make an announcement of his investigation on CNN.
Timeline:
-Congress passes (bipartisan support) aid of Ukraine.
-Trump puts on on aid for 55 days
-Trump asks for favor "in return" for releasing the aid (public announcement of Biden investigation from Ukraine)
-Whistleblower/investigations start into the quid pro quo.
-Money is released (leverage is removed)
-Zelensky cancels CNN announcement. Ukraine receives their aid.
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Orange Blooded [4976]
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Re: Only after the whistleblower/investigations started.
Nov 21, 2019, 11:01 AM
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The problem with aid to Ukraine is much of it has been diverted from day one from it's intended sources. What's wrong with Trump holding it up on his watch until he sees if Zelensky comes through on his election promises to clean up Ukrainian corruption? He's only following through on his own campaign promises.
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Standout [347]
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It does. And if this was the only thing Trump did wrong, then
Nov 20, 2019, 1:28 PM
[ in reply to I was just thinking that of all things to down for ] |
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I would agree. I know you have to try to isolate this one potential infraction as the only thing to decide whether or not to impeach him, but I think while this may be impeachable, it’s being used as an excuse to impeach him for everything else- his stupidity, his lack of any plan, his childish and attacking behavior, his complete lack of preparedness or competence for this role. So while yes, I agree that it’s kind of silly if this is what brings him down, I think people are mostly trying to bring him down because he’s clearly unfit to be president, and this is just the excuse to do it.
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All-In [48078]
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All-In [47796]
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at what point does the worm turn and
Nov 20, 2019, 2:42 PM
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Nikki get into the race?
I don't see the GOP supporting impeachment of Trump and then embracing Mike Pence.
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Oculus Spirit [93668]
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You'll lose more ground with independents anyway.
Nov 20, 2019, 4:13 PM
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No one is paying any attention to this kangaroo court anymore.
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Orange Blooded [4976]
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Re: He's done. Sorry, Trump folks.
Nov 20, 2019, 4:14 PM
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Even with Sondland's statement Trump did nothing wrong. Also, impeachment is political indictment, not criminal. Trump isn't going anywhere. He'll win in 2020 in a landslide.
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Orange Blooded [4976]
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Re: He's done. Sorry, Trump folks.
Nov 20, 2019, 4:34 PM
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Quid Pro Quo is not unethical or criminal no matter what you say. This is much ado about nothing as usual. Get a friggin life and let the Republic stand.
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Lot o points [155929]
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I'm assuming you wrote this during the break before he
Nov 20, 2019, 5:06 PM
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was cross-examined? The one where Schiff ran out and held a press-conference saying what you basically repeated verbatim? That's the only way I can see you writing what you wrote with a straight face.
Where to start:
"Sondland has never been anti-Trump". What???
https://www.wweek.com/news/2016/08/07/two-portland-hotel-executives-disavow-donald-trump-after-being-listed-among-his-event-sponsors/
How can you watch this following clip and now act like it's "game over"? Schiff said over and over he had no evidence of anything coming from Trump, and that it was all "presumed" (his words, not mine) on his part.
https://youtu.be/e_c17vxrPWQ
There's no more evidence than there was yesterday, and anyone who insists there is is the foolish one, because it's clear that impeachment is what you want, and the reasons are really irrelevant.
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All-In [42170]
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Re: I'm assuming you wrote this during the break before he
Nov 20, 2019, 10:00 PM
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Sorry dude, I missed the press conference. I'm going on Sondland's words that everyone was in on it and knew about it, and that the president made the direct orders.
Sondland gave the Trump campaign $1 million. He's not some anti Trumper and y'all aren't going to be able to paint him as someone with a political axe to grind against Trump.
This is bad for Trump. You know it's bad.
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Rock Defender [53]
TigerPulse: 90%
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You really need to go back and watch the entire testimony
Nov 20, 2019, 10:49 PM
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Lot o points [155929]
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The irony is that I'm going off Sondeland's words too.
Nov 20, 2019, 11:17 PM
[ in reply to Re: I'm assuming you wrote this during the break before he ] |
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That's completely false that he said the President gave the direct orders, in fact here's a clip showing exactly the opposite, and also saying that "everyone was in on it" was a presumption on his part. There was zero communication from anyone to him, (according to him, right here) that quid pro quo was the plan.
https://youtu.be/EnEWYilDgcg
How can you watch this and feel good about impeaching a President over this? Someone wouldn't get convicted for hit and run over testimony this weak, much less the President of our country getting impeached.
And come on.....are you seriously throwing that $1mil out as if the elite haven't been buying positions in administrations since long before you and I walked the Earth---you really think that's a sign of total support? If you're going by his words, why do you throw them out so casually on this topic?
Again, if someone thinks this is game, set, match, just admit it....you just want Trump gone, one reason is as good as another, and you're willing to suspend respect for the office and how impeachment should be used because it's convenient.
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Rock Defender [53]
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I was getting ready to post that video haha
Nov 20, 2019, 11:29 PM
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Lot o points [155929]
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It's like they don't understand the legal ramifications
Nov 20, 2019, 11:38 PM
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(or lack thereof) of the man saying out loud that every opinion he holds on quid pro quo is a presumption on his part, with no basis in provided instructions or tangible evidence.
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Legend [18024]
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He said that in regards to the military aid quid pro quo
Nov 21, 2019, 1:19 AM
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He was unequivocal there was a quid pro quo in regards to a white house meeting. He ties in Giuliani (and others) as well. Now, considering Trump directly ties the military aid (confirming what Sondland says Giuliani told him) to doing him a favor in his call to Zelensky, I'm not sure it matters about the "presumption" being much of a defense. We also have all the other testimony and evidence provided in these hearings.
I do think Giuliani is getting closer and closer to being pulled into this thing more directly. Along with others like Perry, Mulvaney, Pompeo, etc.
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Lot o points [155929]
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Again though, there are no direct orders on record anywhere
Nov 21, 2019, 7:35 AM
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For such, nor was he saying that’s how he was instructed. It’s not enough for a traditional conviction by any stretch, and if there’s enough for impeachment in the house, it’s clearly because house Dems are ok with pushing this broken down car across the finish line.
Playing devil’s advocate, if there actually is anything there, and there may or may not be, I have a feeling Rudy will be the patsy.
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Oculus Spirit [93668]
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Lot o points [155929]
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I'm presuming he's violated board rules.
Nov 21, 2019, 9:07 AM
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I mean, everybody knew it and was in the loop. Never saw him do it, but I know he did. He should be banned any day now.
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110%er [7555]
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Re: He's done. Sorry, Trump folks.
Nov 20, 2019, 8:53 PM
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You guys are so hilarious with all your BS.........Go Tigers !!!!!!
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Legend [15492]
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Re: He's done. Sorry, Trump folks.
Nov 20, 2019, 11:42 PM
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Not if Fox News has anything to say about it. Tucker Carlson's show followed the hearing and his big headline was "No Quid Pro Quo".
They will run with what Sondland said Trump told him despite the fact that Sondland also testified that he didn't know if Trump was being truthful and he still believes there absolutely was a quid pro quo.
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Lot o points [155929]
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I'll trust him on who has the best bourbon list in DC, or
Nov 20, 2019, 11:45 PM
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his opinion on what dogs make the best pets, but when it comes to impeaching a President--any President---I'm gonna need a little more than personal opinion. I hope this would be a common sense stance to take.
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Rock Defender [53]
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Oculus Spirit [93668]
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Felix and half a doz other posters here think Carlson...
Nov 21, 2019, 9:09 AM
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and any other Fox personality lie for a living. They believe those folks lay awake at night and figure out which is the best lie to tell tomorrow.
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Lot o points [155929]
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It's just a lazy hot take......
Nov 21, 2019, 9:13 AM
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if someone is taking any non-left position, they must be getting spoon-fed by Fox. I've watched more olympic curling in the last two months than I have Fox news.
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Oculus Spirit [93668]
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I watch Fox but I'm selective which episodes of opinion...
Nov 21, 2019, 11:35 AM
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people I watch. Dershowitz, Solomon and Starr along with a few of the more reasonable and seasoned vets always get my attention. I liked Shepard Smith and Baier and McCallum but as far as every minute of ever episode of the others not so much.
It doesn't bother me that everyone knows I watch Fox. I post almost no links to fox many less than to NYT and Politico.
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Lot o points [155929]
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I'm just more of a reader.
Nov 21, 2019, 12:12 PM
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I prefer my news without any personality injected, and I can skim it or read it twice as required.
Just a personal preference. Of all the Fox guys you mentioned, Shep is probably the most "just the facts" to me, with as little fluff as possible.
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Rock Defender [53]
TigerPulse: 90%
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Well Shep is gone now
Nov 21, 2019, 12:22 PM
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Standout [347]
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I read my news too, I don’t watch news on TV. After reading
Nov 21, 2019, 12:26 PM
[ in reply to I'm just more of a reader. ] |
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all the major news sites, I’ve found Fox has the most opinion injected into them. They don’t even try to hide the bias. CNN may be worse on TV, I don’t know, but Fox is definitely the least objective and factual of all the MSM sources I read.
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Oculus Spirit [93668]
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People believe the earth is flat...
Nov 21, 2019, 9:07 AM
[ in reply to Re: He's done. Sorry, Trump folks. ] |
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that rocks fall because that's where they belong and smoke rises for the same reason. Strong believe is not evidence and it is Sondland's strong belief that fueled all of the dem witnesses in this round of hearings.
I'm still trying to figure out how neither party hasn't recommended perjury charges against Sondland for making contradictory statements.
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Oculus Spirit [93668]
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Who TDed this?
Nov 21, 2019, 11:27 AM
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Man, if you got something to say spit it out. You're TDing a Tiger fan.
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