Replies: 60
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Legend [19693]
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Best job by a Clemson coach I ever saw
Mar 1, 2018, 12:53 AM
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was Barnes first year where he coaxed 16 wins out of a team that was declared prior to the season to be the worst in ACC history. That band of misfits suffered adversity as well as the best player, Devin Gray, flunked out of school after the first semester.
This year with Brad is a close second, maybe a tie, due to what has been accomplished. To lose your best player and still be top four in the best league in the land is impressive at Clemson under the best of circumstances. In a league full of first round picks, we may not have a guy who even gets a cup of coffee in the league, yet here we are.
As you listen to Hamilton after the game, and every other coach we've played, you hear the respect for this team, how they play together, are mentally tough. The sum is much greater than the parts. Unlike the opinion of some wannabe coaches on this board, that's a reflection on Brad and the job he's done this year.
After last season, I thought Brad's ship had sailed here, but he made adjustments, and the results are extremely impressive. The present is very satisfying and exciting, and the future looks bright as recruiting continues to improve.
Just a tremendous job by everyone in the program. Couldn't be prouder of all of them. Now, finish strong and let's have a memorable March!
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Legend [19946]
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Re: Best job by a Clemson coach I ever saw
Mar 1, 2018, 1:06 AM
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It's not like Grantham got hurt early in the season. We already had 16 wins and were ranked in the top 20 at that point.
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Legend [16058]
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Yet we are still ranked in the top 20 and have 22 wins....
Mar 1, 2018, 3:06 AM
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You trying to say he was lost at the end of the season??
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CU Medallion [55419]
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Re: Yet we are still ranked in the top 20 and have 22 wins....
Mar 1, 2018, 6:27 AM
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He has been loss for to long, but we continue to win bc guys are stepping up, and that is the making of a good team!!!
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CU Guru [1077]
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All-Pro [658]
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Re: Best job by a Clemson coach I ever saw
Mar 2, 2018, 7:34 AM
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The glass is half full if you pour it to a half glass. If you drink or pour out a full glass to half its half empty. If you walk up to a glass that's already at half its according to how thirsty you are. LOL
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1st Rounder [627]
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POTD^^^
Mar 2, 2018, 9:19 AM
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Must be a lawyer tho
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Legend [19693]
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Which means we'll play almost 2/3 of the conference
Mar 1, 2018, 8:12 AM
[ in reply to Re: Best job by a Clemson coach I ever saw ] |
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schedule without him. Plus the two conference games without Mitchell. So your point is?
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Orange Blooded [2332]
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Re: Best job by a Clemson coach I ever saw
Mar 1, 2018, 8:27 AM
[ in reply to Re: Best job by a Clemson coach I ever saw ] |
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The poster indicating already having sixteen wins when Donte was lost for the remainder of the season seemingly wants to downplay every accomplishment thereafter! Get a clue! Norte Dame lost their best player until last night and never fully recovered. Coach Brownell has done a major series of adjustments and the only letdowns occurred with losses to Duke and FSU away in OT. The loss of Mitchell certainly did not help matters.
Some posters will never be happy no matter who coaches. Brownell deserves ACC COY honors and if he advances in the NCAA tourney he should be nationally recognized. Most importantly the fan in question needs to pay attention to comments from other coaches. They know a whole lot more than fans.
Go Tigers!
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Orange Blooded [4412]
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Orange Blooded [3730]
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Personally, after Grantham's chronic underachievement...
Mar 2, 2018, 2:32 PM
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...I didn't think it was going to make much difference. I'm glad as to how it has turned out.
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Orange Blooded [2218]
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The development of Thomad & Grantham was the biggest surprise***
Mar 1, 2018, 7:01 AM
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Walk-On [138]
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Re: Best job by a Clemson coach I ever saw
Mar 1, 2018, 8:25 AM
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Some on here forget we lost Shelton there too, so they were playing minus two of their best players. What this team has done is amazing and have truly made basketball truly fun again. I give Brownell credit in that even the games they have lost, it was not because he did not have them ready to play!
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Orange Blooded [3632]
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What is really amazing is how Grantham might not be the best
Mar 1, 2018, 9:07 AM
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anymore when you compare his talent early in the season to that of other players (that have had to step up) now.
Similar to how Devoe catching fire required teams to play him a lot tighter, which hurt his numbers, but allowed Reed to become the three point threat.
Those are the things that excites me most about our chances in the post season - we aren't reliant on one or two players and the absence or foul trouble of certain players has allowed others to find their potential earlier in the season than when we have to rely on them.
Sims has really stood out as the most improved as far as bringing positives during his time in the game and cutting out the negatives we saw earlier in the season. Donnell has really seemed to figured out his role and his 3pt shot selection and confidence is much better. I hope Skara either finds his 3pt shot or abandons it in the post season - his defense is one of the most under-rated parts of our success and I feel like the refs screw him over more than any other player when he has the ball.
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110%er [6272]
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CU Medallion [64590]
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I'm still not a big Brownell fan...
Mar 1, 2018, 9:52 AM
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and frankly I think the team is winning in spite of him.
Devoe, Sims, Thomas, Skara (at least defensively), Donnell, and Mitchell (among others) have really elevated their games and learned to play together as a team.
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All-TigerNet [14470]
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Re: I'm still not a big Brownell fan...
Mar 1, 2018, 9:53 AM
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AND THESE PLAYERS JUST ELEVATED THEIR GAMES ON THEIR OWN HUH. DID YOU READ WHAT YOU JUST TYPED.
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Legend [19693]
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But that doesn't happen on its own
Mar 1, 2018, 9:55 AM
[ in reply to I'm still not a big Brownell fan... ] |
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that mindset and ethic flows down. And Brad has always said the best teams are the ones where the team takes ownership. This one has. Again though, the coach cultivates that
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Orange Blooded [4423]
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utterly ridiculous....
Mar 1, 2018, 10:02 AM
[ in reply to I'm still not a big Brownell fan... ] |
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you must know nothing about what goes into coaching, motivating, and managing a team.
you are simply saying that to downplay the job he's done.
So, if next year, clemson was to lose 20 games, would you be quick to blame it all on the players? I Think not
bigcufan? yea, right!
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CU Medallion [64590]
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I have said it before and I will say it again....
Mar 1, 2018, 11:26 AM
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I thought Brad Brownell was a bad hire
I still think Brad Brownell was a bad hire
I did not think Brad Brownell was a particularly good coach or recruiter I still do not think Brad Brownell is a particularly good coach or recruiter
I thought Brad Brownell should have been fired at least two years ago
I still think Brad Brownell should have been fired at least two years ago.
Am I absolutely thrilled with the unexpected success this team has experienced this year?
Absolutely!
Do I think they are succeeding in spite of Brad Brownell.
Most assuredly!
One year of uncharacteristic success isn't enough to convince me that I'm wrong about him.
Sustained long term success is what I want and what I think Clemson deserves, and that is the only thing that will convince me that I'm wrong about him.
I genuinely hope he proves me wrong but one NCAA Tournament appearance every seven or eight years isn't going to do it.
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110%er [6692]
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How exactly are they winning in spite of the coach though?
Mar 1, 2018, 11:36 AM
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If you're meaning they're talented enough to win in spite of "bad coaching" then that would counter your point that he is not a good recruiter (yes, transfers count). On the other side if he is not a good recruiter then he must have done a great job of developing the players to win in spite of him, but that would make him a good coach.
Clearly we all want our basketball team to win consistently, however, how can you say Clemson "deserves" the sustained long term success when we've never had it?
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CU Medallion [64590]
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We finally some some basketball players...
Mar 1, 2018, 11:41 AM
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rather than just some talented athletes who happen to play basketball.
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110%er [6692]
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Exactly, and someone had to get them to come to Clemson.***
Mar 1, 2018, 11:43 AM
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CU Medallion [64590]
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Again...for me it's about sustained success...
Mar 1, 2018, 11:48 AM
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You may be happy with one Tournament appearance every seven or eight years.
I'm not.
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110%er [6692]
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Again, you're looking for something no coach has ever done
Mar 1, 2018, 11:53 AM
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here, unless you consider 3 years of going to the NCAA Tourney with some NIT's preceding it consistent.
Who said anything about being happy with it? Whether or not anyone is "happy" with it isn't going to change the past 7 years, but looking at what we have this year and moving forward gives much more hope than what has been.
Message was edited by: tiggerz04®
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CU Medallion [64590]
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I disagree...
Mar 1, 2018, 12:16 PM
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Cliff Ellis made three tournament appearance over his nine year tenure.
Rick Barnes made three tournament appearances in four years
Oliver Purnell made three tournament appearances in seven years.
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110%er [6692]
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Re: I completely disagree...
Mar 1, 2018, 12:21 PM
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That's not helping your point, making it 3/4 years (Ellis/Barnes) or 3 in a row (Purnell) and then nothing else isn't consistent. That just means you had a good group of players that got you to a tournament and after they left you couldn't do anything else.
Of course, if Barnes or Purnell had stayed longer then we probably would've continued to go to tourney's and been consistent long term with it. However, they did not and we slipped back to not going to the tournament for an extended period of time.
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CU Medallion [64590]
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As I said, I hope I'm wrong about Brownell...
Mar 1, 2018, 12:31 PM
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but I think this years team is more the exception for him rather than the norm.
Of course, had we fired him a couple of years ago, who do you get to replace him (Will Wade, Gregg Marshall, Chris Mack, Shaka Smart)?
Most if not all of those guys aren't real options for Clemson so what do you do? Maintain the status quo or start all over with some young up and coming largely unproven guy.
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Legend [16136]
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Gregg Marshall? Shaka Smart? There it is...Typical Clemson
Mar 1, 2018, 12:52 PM
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Football fan masquerading as a Basketball fan....Greg Marshall? GTFOOH
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CU Medallion [64590]
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I see reading comprehension isn't your strong suit***
Mar 1, 2018, 2:27 PM
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Legend [16136]
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I see basketball isn't your strong suit***
Mar 2, 2018, 1:52 PM
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110%er [6692]
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Re: As I said, I hope I'm wrong about Brownell...
Mar 1, 2018, 2:25 PM
[ in reply to As I said, I hope I'm wrong about Brownell... ] |
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We want to build consistency but also want to complain when we aren't already consistent. You countered your own argument that he should have been fired a couple of years ago, we wouldn't get a high profile guy or anyone above the "young up and comer" moniker.
Not to mention you're pitching to these guys that they have to either a) deal with the facilities we had prior to the renovations if he was fired before then, or b) pitch to them that they have to play and recruit a year in Greenville.
It was certainly not a good situation to fire anyone, and now we are trending upwards. Next year should return the core group of Mitchell, Reed, and Thomas, as well as an experienced Amir Simms and by all accounts have a solid recruiting class coming in.
I'm just trying to make the point we've never been "consistent" because we've been a stepping stone program. At least now we have a guy who is sticking around and hopefully, if he does turn us to a consistent winner, he'll stick by us since we stuck by him.
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Orange Blooded [2409]
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Re: I completely disagree...
Mar 1, 2018, 12:31 PM
[ in reply to Re: I completely disagree... ] |
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I have missed reviews. I am very happy with Brad in some areas and no so much in others.Certainly the team, seemingly, over achieved. He gets credit for that, as well as the players. I'm not pleased with some of the technical aspects this year. Overall, very happy, but I think we could have been a bit better. I'd like to see a better rebounding strategy ( since the problem is basically team wide, I have to see it as a Brad thing, we did rebound pretty well last night ) and the motion offense just isn't much at times.Overall, how could you not give him credit for the year we had . . that "no one " saw coming?
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110%er [6692]
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Re: I completely disagree...
Mar 1, 2018, 2:20 PM
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Of course there will be areas that aren't great, however we aren't that terrible of a rebounding team. Using a Win-Loss-Tie breakdown for each game we are 7-9-1 in ACC play, and the margin isn't horrible. Of course, it is something that could be improved.
You have to also take into account that we lost Grantham, who was a huge mismatch for other teams 4 spot to guard, or if he moved to play the 3 was an even bigger mismatch. That certainly hurt rebounding, as well as offensive production.
Our offense isn't the prettiest, and is a variation of the motion offense, but rarely ever will two motion offenses work the same as each coach will take the base offense and tweak it. We use a lot of high ball screens with Eli and he rolls or will reset and screen again. We don't have an athletic slasher that can really cut to the basket and make plays around the rim amongst the trees, much like Stitt did in his time here, so we have to adjust.
Of course in each game the offense could work better than others, but overall I've enjoyed what we've done this year including some more up tempo aspects as well as slowing the ball down.
All that being said, no one is wrong to criticize Brownell, he's a coach at a D1 program with a rabid fan base after all. The issue is just plain stupidity and believing that everything that ever goes wrong has to be attributed to one person.
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Hall of Famer [22127]
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Re: I disagree...
Mar 1, 2018, 2:45 PM
[ in reply to I disagree... ] |
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Tournament appearances in itself may not be a good measure of a good coach. I haven't checked the records of those coaches who had multiple tournament appearances nor do I intend to do so. I'll leave that for others. But, one must look at the quality of the teams they played and if it was a down year for some of the ACC teams. In past years, we played a lot of "patsies". The wins padded our record and we heard many of our fans requesting a tougher schedule. We have had 22 basketball coaches over the years and, if one were to judge our success on the basketball court, we would be at the bottom of the well.
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110%er [5436]
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Re: I disagree...
Mar 2, 2018, 1:59 PM
[ in reply to I disagree... ] |
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You wanted Dabo fired also. Remember
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Legend [16136]
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well, there's ALWAYS that***
Mar 2, 2018, 3:45 PM
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Scout Team [171]
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Re: Again...for me it's about sustained success...
Mar 2, 2018, 5:41 PM
[ in reply to Again...for me it's about sustained success... ] |
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Here’s the thing, it will be the 4th post season in 8 years. You might not like the NIT but it does count.
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All-Conference [403]
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Re: How exactly are they winning in spite of the coach though?
Mar 2, 2018, 9:22 AM
[ in reply to How exactly are they winning in spite of the coach though? ] |
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If you're meaning they're talented enough to win in spite of "bad coaching" then that would counter your point that he is not a good recruiter (yes, transfers count). On the other side if he is not a good recruiter then he must have done a great job of developing the players to win in spite of him, but that would make him a good coach.
Clearly we all want our basketball team to win consistently, however, how can you say Clemson "deserves" the sustained long term success when we've never had it? Point ^^^
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Legend [16136]
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CU Medallion [64590]
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The fact that you're content with mediocrity...
Mar 1, 2018, 2:31 PM
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and only making the tournament once every seven or eight years doesn't make it a dumba$S post.
You sound like practiceguy trying desperately to defend Larry Shyatt.
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All-In [44050]
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You might want to look up the definition of mediocrity.
Mar 2, 2018, 12:24 PM
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Brownell has a better ACC winning percentage than any coach in Clemson history. His overall winning percentage is much better than our historical average. He also has us in the midst of one of the best seasons in Clemson basketball history. How on earth is that mediocre?
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Legend [16136]
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He doesn't know #### about basketball***
Mar 2, 2018, 1:51 PM
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110%er [5436]
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Legend [16136]
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Link to where I said I was content with every 7 or 8 years?
Mar 2, 2018, 1:50 PM
[ in reply to The fact that you're content with mediocrity... ] |
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And Secondly, Shyatt never made the Tourney and I NEVER defended him...You sound like the guys who wanted to run Dabo in 2010...See how easy that works?
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All-In [44050]
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What makes you think this year will be an exception?
Mar 2, 2018, 12:22 PM
[ in reply to I have said it before and I will say it again.... ] |
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We don't have the luxury of looking into a crystal ball to see how future seasons will go.
I am amazed at the number of people who are holding onto catch phrases from early in his tenure, such as:
-He inherited an NCAA Tournament team and ran it into the ground -He doesn't recruit well -He's boring
Sometimes it takes longer to have the success you want. Sometimes, the transition is more complex than anticipated. Sometimes, the situation within a program isn't what you thought it was.
It is NOT as simple as saying that Brownell inherited a team that went to the NCAAs three years in a row. There was a lot more going on that the casual basketball fan does not realize or understand - and never will. Recruiting under Purnell toward the end was very poor. We had ONE recruit for 2010-2011, as OP had whiffed on several key recruits. OP knew that the talent level was going to decline after 2010-2011, and I am convinced that this realization played a role in him taking the DePaul job.
Brad did not know until he arrived at Clemson that there were some significant issues within the program and administration. He has alluded to this on a few occasions in the last few years. Unfortunately, most fans will never know the extent of it all, but needless to say, he has weathered the storm and seems to have come out of it in great shape. I find it amazing that despite these issues, and being at a huge talent disadvantage his first 6 years, we were very competitive. Did we win as much as we would've liked? No, but we were competitive in a very tough ACC against teams with a much better basketball history and much better facilities, fans, and administrative support than Clemson has.
This year, we are seeing the result of our patience. We finally have good facilities, which Brad did not get until year 7 and only got because of his own diligence and persistence. Without him, we would still be playing in the old Littlejohn with a pathetic practice "facility." Since these changes, we have seen recruiting improve a lot and we have also seen a better performance on the court. I feel that we will continue seeing competitive teams and NCAA Tournament appearances. Next year, we should be an NCAA Tournament team again and compete for a top 4 ACC finish.
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Legend [16136]
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Well, you can take a horse to water, but you can't make his
Mar 1, 2018, 12:47 PM
[ in reply to I'm still not a big Brownell fan... ] |
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dumba$$ drink it...You've said some stupid stuff on here, this tops it Biggie
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Hall of Famer [22127]
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Re: I'm still not a big Brownell fan...
Mar 1, 2018, 2:16 PM
[ in reply to I'm still not a big Brownell fan... ] |
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That is a back-handed compliment. If Brownell wasn't responsible for their development as an individual and as a team, he certainly should be complemented for finding and signing players who were highly capable of being successful on their own.
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All-Conference [403]
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Re: I'm still not a big Brownell fan...
Mar 2, 2018, 9:19 AM
[ in reply to I'm still not a big Brownell fan... ] |
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and frankly I think the team is winning in spite of him.
Devoe, Sims, Thomas, Skara (at least defensively), Donnell, and Mitchell (among others) have really elevated their games and learned to play together as a team.
Geez I guess coaching had nothing to do with that. Good thing our players can self coach themselves to playing well.
Unbelievable
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All-In [44050]
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So let me get this straight...
Mar 2, 2018, 12:14 PM
[ in reply to I'm still not a big Brownell fan... ] |
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If we lose, it's because Brownell is a bad coach. If we win, it's because Brownell is still a bad coach, but the players are overcoming his poor coaching?
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CU Guru [1019]
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Re: I'm still not a big Brownell fan...
Mar 2, 2018, 2:28 PM
[ in reply to I'm still not a big Brownell fan... ] |
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And just who do you think has coached them to "play as a team" ?
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Orange Blooded [4504]
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So now the player’s improvement has nothing to do with
Mar 2, 2018, 4:25 PM
[ in reply to I'm still not a big Brownell fan... ] |
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coaching but when they take bad shots, bad free throw shooting, bad inbound decisions etc. it’s due to coaching? Gotcha!
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CU Guru [1250]
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The Key To Barnes' First Team Success Was
Mar 1, 2018, 1:15 PM
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that all five of the starters could shoot the ball really well.
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Legend [19693]
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And they played suffocating defense
Mar 1, 2018, 1:41 PM
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well, as .u h as you could with 6'4 Andy Kelly at PF
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All-TigerNet [11934]
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Rayfield Ragland shot unconscious in big win up at Duke!
Mar 2, 2018, 1:47 PM
[ in reply to The Key To Barnes' First Team Success Was ] |
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Bruce Martin could have amazing streaks.
Merle Code was consistent and super from the FT line.
Bill Harder was scrappy and dependable.
Andy Johnson was sort of that team's Skara.
and of course ... Buckner was Buckner.
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CU Guru [1463]
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Pretty remarkable
Mar 1, 2018, 3:19 PM
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I also thought Brownell's ship had sailed after last year. I was really shocked we kept him. Even though we have mostly the same players, this year is like night and day. Last year's team expected to lose. This team expects to win and won't stop fighting. The chemistry is so much better. These guys really seem to like each other too.
During the Charleston classic I spent some time talking with Bruce Pearl. Pearl went on and on about what a great coach Brownell is. He wasn't on TV. He didn't have to say any of it. He meant it.
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Letterman [256]
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Brownell is respected
Mar 2, 2018, 9:51 AM
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I've been to several clinics and folks have praised him in an unsolicited manner, usually about how good his teams are defensively and how hard they are to play against. Brad's biggest problem during his time at Clemson was proper recruiting strategy. Things have turned some when he embraced hunting transfers as a part of his recruiting and obviously this team relies heavily on five guys who transferred into the program. Now the better facilities are helping him sign a better product out of high school. I think Simms is better as a freshman than Blossomgame was, so if he develops at the same rate we will have a great player in a year or two more. Trapp is going to be good in time, I believe, and has more potential than DeVoe at the same stage.
The thing that concerned me the most with Brownell was how many guys were leaving the program. That continued to rob the team of guys who might have been stronger players as upper classmen. I know transfers are much more common across college basketball over the last 10 years.
Barnes did a remarkable job at Clemson, no question, and probably ranks as the best pure coach the school has ever had in hoops. The slab five team was remarkable, and his three straight NCAA runs also happened when the ACC was about as deep as it has ever been with future NBA pros. He had to deal with Vince Carter, Antuan Jamison, Tim Duncan, Steve Francis, etc. However, he got out before the drop off that even he wouldn't have been able to save us from completely. Shyatt really had to take the grenade with Littlejohn being freaking condemned during his tenure (how Clemson's admin allowed things to get to that point is beyond me, but thankfully those days are in the past).
It is clear the administration believes in Brad and is giving him every amount of rope possible to keep him. The time to fire him was last year, for sure, because doing it before the new Littlejohn was ready would have made hiring the next guy more difficult. He certainly has bought more time with this season and should find the heat off of him for a bit. That should help on the recruiting trail as well. The next question folks have is how he can sustain. He has to find a way to get the type of guy Reed and Mitchell and Thomas are in the program when they leave. Shyatt suffered when the guys coming in for Boogie, Buckner, Wideman, Jamison, etc, were not nearly as good. Purnell would have suffered had he stayed because his last class, which on paper was his best ever, came up woefully short with Booker being just above average, Jennings being a head case of the first degree, Johnson being a total bust, etc.
Clemson isn't going to be Duke or UNC in hoops at any point, and I think Clemson fans mostly understand that, but there is no reason the team can't compete at the level Miami has or VT is now or FSU. Miami in particular has made multiple NCAA tournaments, their "down" years are NIT, and have won an ACC tournament over the last 8 years. This is my goal for Clemson basketball as a fan.
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Heisman Winner [134481]
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well deserved POTD!!!***
Mar 2, 2018, 7:23 AM
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110%er [6099]
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slab five***
Mar 2, 2018, 7:44 AM
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All-TigerNet [10639]
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Re: Best job by a Clemson coach I ever saw
Mar 2, 2018, 9:40 AM
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Yep .....nailed it!
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CU Guru [1019]
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Re: Best job by a Clemson coach I ever saw
Mar 2, 2018, 2:26 PM
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Well said ... did not hear Hamilton's remarks but agree. Hamilton is interesting dude. Does not seem to talk much during game even to his own players. I sit right above visiting bench at Littlejohn.
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