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Replies: 57
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All-In [44050]
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Does an NIT berth save Brownell's job?
Feb 9, 2017, 2:38 PM
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Looking at our remaining schedule and our RPI, an NIT berth seems very possible. We currently sit at 13-10 (3-8), with the following games remaining:
@ Duke
Wake Forest
@ Miami
@ Virginia Tech
Florida State
NC State
Boston College
We could easily go 4-3 in these remaining six games, and finish 17-13 (7-11). While not outstanding on paper, this would probably put our RPI in a decent range and make an NIT berth possible. I realize that we could easily lose all or most of the remaining games, but assuming we go 4-3, and make the NIT, do you think it saves Brownell's job?
I'm not asking if it should be enough to save his job - I think we can all agree that it's time for Brownell to move on. I am asking if it will be enough for Radakovich and the administration to give Brownell another year.
If the answer is yes, then I believe it sends a message that we are okay with basketball mediocrity. I don't want to think that DRad will keep Brownell, but part of me is afraid that he will give him another year (and thus, a contract extension, since he would need it for recruiting). iI do not see us being better next year, or even as good as we are this year, given the fact that we lose:
-One of our best players ever (Blossomgame)
-One of our best three point shooters ever (Holmes)
-A solid defender down low (Djitte)
Thoughts?
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Heisman Winner [105574]
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I hope not. CBB painted himself into a corner this year
Feb 9, 2017, 2:42 PM
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talking about how talented this team is. I remember seeing a video of him talking about how good the team will be if Blossomgame comes back. Well he came back and if talent isn't the issue then it has to fall to coaching.
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Legend [17786]
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yep. i remember that video as well***
Feb 9, 2017, 2:53 PM
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All-In [44050]
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Hall of Famer [22393]
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If Coach Brownell wants to stay, then DRad will keep him if
Feb 9, 2017, 2:43 PM
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we make the NIT. There is a slight possibility that Coach Brownell, knowing next year will be a step back and the problems he appears to be having with his players buying in(there may also be a few transfers leaving after the season), may want to negotiate a buyout and move on as a wealthy man.
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Orange Blooded [3820]
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if I were him - and could overcome ego - I'd be looking
Feb 9, 2017, 4:16 PM
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for another Power 5 position.
Rightly or wrongly there's some programs in the ACC that are stuck: Clemson, NC State, Wake Forest, BC, GA Tech...
just can't get out of their own way.
I don't see things changing with BB - even as he has been eminently more successful than the coaches at those other schools listed -
unless he plucks Zion W.
Then it's a whole 'nother story, my friend.
And BTW: next year does not have to be a step back, per se. If Grantham got his head out of his ####, and took to some good coaching over 10 hours a day the summer instead of playing XBox, then he could be every bit the player that B-Game is, though different. Don't see it happening though. And again - that ain't coaching.
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Hall of Famer [22393]
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It doesn't matter if it's coaching or players.
Feb 9, 2017, 4:49 PM
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The guy making $1.7 Million to make coaching and personnel decisions is responsible for the program status.
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All-In [44050]
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Please stop acting like $1.7 million is a lot of money
Feb 9, 2017, 6:16 PM
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for a power 5 college basketball coach. Don't get me wrong, we pay Brownell a very fair salary, but it's not like he is one of the top paid coaches in the country - or even the ACC.
I agree that the buck stops with him though. He's the coach, and the responsibility is ultimately his.
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Hall of Famer [22393]
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I wasn't.***
Feb 10, 2017, 11:05 AM
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All-In [48078]
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Hope not****
Feb 9, 2017, 2:54 PM
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Hall of Famer [21579]
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No***
Feb 9, 2017, 2:55 PM
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Oculus Spirit [96873]
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I think it does. Especially if we play well in the ACC
Feb 9, 2017, 2:59 PM
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Tourney & NIT and generally finish the year on an upswing.
Not saying whether or not I agree...
Message was edited by: northalabamatiger®
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Orange Blooded [2683]
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We rarely play well in the ACC tournament
Feb 9, 2017, 3:10 PM
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It's almost mathematically impossible how bad we've been in that event. But there's always hope!
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Oculus Spirit [96873]
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The ACC tournament has been played every year since 1954.
Feb 9, 2017, 3:19 PM
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Clemson has never won the tournament, and has only made the championship game twice.
Clemson is the only charter member of the ACC to never win an ACC Tournament championship, and that includes Maryland.
If there's a team in any major conference that can match this record of futility I'm not aware of it.
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Hall of Famer [22393]
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All-In [28413]
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Re: Does an NIT berth save Brownell's job?
Feb 9, 2017, 3:03 PM
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i can't imagine drad sacrificing basketball due to a nit bid
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All-In [44050]
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I hope you're right.
Feb 9, 2017, 6:17 PM
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DRad seems to like Brownell, which I understand, because I do too. But something's gotta give, and I don't see how keeping Brownell does anything to move our program forward.
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110%er [6281]
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Re: Does an NIT berth save Brownell's job?
Feb 9, 2017, 3:05 PM
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How do you go 4-3 in 6 games?
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Oculus Spirit [96873]
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Must be that Common Core maff***
Feb 9, 2017, 3:07 PM
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Hall of Famer [22393]
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or a Michigan charter school***
Feb 9, 2017, 3:07 PM
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All-In [44050]
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All-Pro [699]
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God no***
Feb 9, 2017, 3:10 PM
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All-TigerNet [14921]
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Will it? Probably. Should it? No.
Feb 9, 2017, 3:15 PM
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The problem is he has a $5 million buyout and there aren't a ton of great replacement candidates out there.
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Legend [16908]
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His buyout is not $5 million***
Feb 9, 2017, 3:46 PM
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All-In [44050]
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His buyout is now $3 million, and stays at $3 million
Feb 9, 2017, 6:19 PM
[ in reply to Will it? Probably. Should it? No. ] |
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whether we fire him after this season or after any season left on his contract. So that shouldn't be a factor.
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CU Guru [1679]
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Re: Does an NIT berth save Brownell's job?
Feb 9, 2017, 3:17 PM
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Before this season began all I heard from this place and TI was that this was Brownell's best team and best chance to go to the NCAA's. If he didn't then he should be gone. I don't really think that should change. Brownell is a nice guy. But, he has the smell of loser on him, and it ain't going away.
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Hall of Famer [22393]
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The consensus was that we would easily make the tournament
Feb 9, 2017, 3:35 PM
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this year. The question was, how many games would we win.
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Orange Blooded [3820]
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the consensus of a bunch of know-little fans...
Feb 9, 2017, 3:42 PM
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means even less.
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Hall of Famer [22393]
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Orange Blooded [3820]
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no one said "knew", and I do think Brownell set himself up
Feb 9, 2017, 3:59 PM
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no doubt.
But this so-called "talent" simply hasn't materialized.
None of JB, Avry or Grantham have significantly improved since last year - they're basically the same players.
Djite is simply not in the same class as Nnoko, even as Nnoko had a hard time getting minutes.
In fact, this position has regressed enough to counter all the other improvements for the team
even as Thomas has provided some nice offensive presence at times.
Mitchell has had his moments, and so has Reed - I like both of them -
but they're hardly worldbeaters relative to Roper. Even Roper went on binges at times.
And the team defense has been so bad, what's the point?
What this team needs is an attitude - but they're basketball IQ seems so low across the board
that they can't consistently make the plays it takes to impose that attitude and win.
Case in point: nice defensive series forces a missed shot with 1:20 to go, and we rebound aith a 2-point lead at HOME.
What do we do - force the ball out for some reason and right into the hands of a defender who promptly hits a 3.
That's the play that lost the game, and you simply can't make a worse play - basically killed a pretty decent team outing.
Then the same guy fails to cover to the corner at all....
This team jutst doesn't have what people thought they would have, player wise - and that's primarily on the players.
But yes, reasonable people did not predict a NCAA berth based on paper if for no other reason
than 3 prime contributors to be counted on had never set foot on the floor for Clemson,
and Djite had never started before. That should have been enough to suggest caution....
for some of us, it was.
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Hall of Famer [22393]
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You do make a strong case for shitcanning Coach Brownell.
Feb 9, 2017, 4:02 PM
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Actually, you make a good case for shitcanning him last year.
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Orange Blooded [3820]
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I think you missed the point....
Feb 9, 2017, 4:09 PM
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the failure to improve year-to-year is primarily on the players, and themselves alone.
There is a whole lot of "athletic" talent on this team.
But there isn't a lot of Basketball talent that has come to the fore.
So any unfulfilled expectations people had are basically their own fault - not generally BB's.
But hey, you guys want to shitcan a Coach every 3 years or so, go for it.
Everybody wants to rule the world....
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All-In [28413]
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Re: I think you missed the point....
Feb 9, 2017, 4:15 PM
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improvement from 19 yr olds is based on coaching and programs. not because they just decide to improve. most of us, if not all of us, needed guidance during formative years. to even suggest that its on the kids, when the coach makes 1.7 mil to improve them, is not the way it works. this is not the nba.
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All-In [28413]
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Re: I think you missed the point....
Feb 9, 2017, 4:21 PM
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some kids do decide they want to improve - on their own. and they work hard after hours to put them in that spot. but for the most part, its on the coaches to bring them to "believe"
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Orange Blooded [3820]
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Oh, I agree... improvement does come from coaching...
Feb 9, 2017, 4:22 PM
[ in reply to Re: I think you missed the point.... ] |
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but it comes -as an individual - primarily by working on and applying
coached-up points
during the summers.
I really can't hardly tell if Avry, Grantham, or B-Game even picked up a ball this summer.
I assume they did, but for whatever reason - but not "in season coaching" -
it hasn't come to fruition.
To the point: the reason it has failed is because they were working on the wrong things,
or they bought into the hype and didn't work enough,
or the competition they worked against was insufficient,
or their talent has peaked at the skill level they are currently at,
and pretty much were last year too.
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Hall of Famer [22393]
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I happen to agree with you. I felt we wouldn't be as good
Feb 9, 2017, 4:47 PM
[ in reply to I think you missed the point.... ] |
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as many thought we would be. I didn't think the transfers were a panacea, like so many have been saying for the last couple of years. I too see a general lack of player development throughout the Brownell tenure. I thought that was obvious as well. You and I differ on the reasons for it, but regardless, it is year seven and the man we pay $1.7 million dollars to each year to run our program and make all of the personnel and coaching decisions is the man I hold responsible.
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Orange Blooded [3820]
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I think the more interesting issue is why B-Game
Feb 9, 2017, 5:09 PM
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improved so much between years 1 and 3
and apparently so little between years 3 and 4?
same player; same Coach; mostly same environment; mostly the same agenda and goals;
but entirely different result...
with KJ developing the way he did, Nnoko and B-Game's improvement
since they came into the program,
this might be a hard sell to blame development on BB.
personally, I think people are genuflecting so hard to blame things on BB
they often grab the wrong stick.
But BB has his faults and blame that's for sure...
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CU Medallion [64591]
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It shouldn't...
Feb 9, 2017, 3:37 PM
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but probably will.
The fact is, at least in my opinion, firing Brownell would effectively be an acknowledgment by DRad that he totally screwed-the-pooch when he unnecessarily and foolishly gave Brownell such a HUGE buyout.
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Legend [19694]
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Well, Terry Don admitted that with Bowden
Feb 9, 2017, 4:08 PM
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and that turned out decent.
To me it's clear new direction is needed, but I don't count. If I'm DRad though, I'm "encouraging" Brad to take a job somewhere else
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CU Medallion [64591]
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Yea but who would hire him...
Feb 9, 2017, 4:55 PM
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which makes his large buyout that much more stupid.
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Legend [19694]
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Every Clemson coach since Bobby Roberts
Feb 9, 2017, 5:18 PM
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has gone on to other head coaching jobs. Brad could and will be hired by someone quickly once he leaves Clemson
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Legend [16259]
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My hope is that DRad and the admin are heading into a
Feb 9, 2017, 3:40 PM
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pro-active stage in addressing the head coach position. Some interest should be gauged now, however they do that mid-season, as to candidates and program fits for the coming year, and if the timing looks good enough this cycle for a strong short list - go ahead and move on it at season's end regardless. If the cupboard for coaching looks more bare this year, then I could see another year of BB. However...
CBB's buyout is approximately 2 season's worth of salary at this point. Even after next season. So we'd be sinking $3 Million PLUS next year's salary of $1.75 million if we keep him on for another year ($4.75 Million). If we ride out the two years - we're still $3.5 million in on salary alone - and who knows where in terms of program strength.
If it's based too much around coaching costs right now, we could easily be looking at two more years of CBB if they don't part ways at the end of this season. With a national brand and identify as large as ever thanks to football, I'd hate to see us squander that extra mojo that we have going for us right now.
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Orange Blooded [3820]
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a couple of issues....
Feb 9, 2017, 3:42 PM
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1) JB is not one of our "best players ever" unless you're talking top 20 or so. While I think B-Game is a nice player, he simply does not have enough basketball moxie or leadership attitude to drive a winner. JB came back to impress the scouts: he should be averaging 23-25 ppg and another 3-4 assists. But quite frankly I think his game is little different than it was last year. Still can't drive into the paint and finish with points or pass when there's pressure on the ball. What the heck does he think they're going to do in the NBA - just let him waltz into the paint? And most importantly, still doesn't have the presence - with or without the ball - to consistently guide the right play and the following result on a needed possession. That's what makes a winning team - winning big possessions. Second team All-ACC this year; maybe a showcase event or two. Late first to early 2nd round draft - maybe. I can think of lots of players from Clemson's past that I would rather have leading a team than JB. Simple as that.
2) Holmes is too dang streaky to say he's one of our best ever. Dude simply cannot be counted on. Yes, when he's hitting 40% from 3 he looks good and so does the team. But when he's off, it seems like he can go on a bad streak for 4 or 5 whole games. Again, Avry is a nice player, but we've had lots better from 3.
3) If Djite was a "solid" defensive player, he could have, and would have, gotten back out to the corner to put some pressure on Tuesday's game winner. Turns out, Nnoko was better at both offense and defense than Sidy. In the end, his position has been given over to Thomas even as Thomas struggles at D and can't stop fouling. By the time he graduates, Thomas will be a better player than either of them if continues to work on his deficiencies.
This year's team is a disappointment, yes, but a disappointment based on presumptions of talent and improvement that have jus not shown up - especially on the D side. And unfortunately it's come in a year that the ACC is just dang tough and eminently deep.
So, yes, we're probably 17-13 and NIT bound, plus likely a win in the ACC tourney if they keep their heads' up.
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All-In [44050]
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We've only had 14 All-ACC First Team players ever.
Feb 9, 2017, 6:35 PM
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Blossomgame is one of them. I do feel that he is one of our best players ever. He averaged 18.7 points per game last year and shot 45% on threes. How many Clemson players have ever done that? Answer: very few. I don't think he is to the level of Horace Grant or Tree Rollins in terms of our all-time greats, but he is arguably the best player we've had in the last couple of decades.
Holmes is shooting over 50% on threes in conference play this year. That is hard to ignore. I agree, he is streaky, but I can't think of too many shooters we've had who shot the ball like he is this season.
Sidy's defensive strengths are his blocking ability and his athleticism to draw charges. His rebounding leaves a lot to be desired, but he is not a bad player by any means. My overall point in mentioning him is that we will miss him down low next year. I prefer Thomas's overall game, but having Thomas and Robertin as our only big men next year, while also losing Blossomgame, spells trouble down low for us - especially with the propensity for both Thomas and Robertin to foul a lot.
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Legend [19694]
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In my lifetime, he'd rank behind
Feb 9, 2017, 7:06 PM
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Wise, Tree, Nance, Horace, Elden, Davis, Wright, Buckner and Trevor. So top ten in my lifetime. Can't speak on those I never saw
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Orange Blooded [2481]
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One more win, probably does.
Feb 9, 2017, 3:44 PM
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I realize the Ath dir. doesn't wanna give up on the season. Or put that out there that
they have. But in the end, a move should be made.
Someone young
Can delvelop and motivate players.
Mentor and recruit
Up beat, fast pace style
Relentless...and oh yeah...
CAN COACH!!!!!!!!!!
#21
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CU Guru [1261]
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Re: One more win, probably does.
Feb 9, 2017, 4:10 PM
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I am with Prime T. Tiger. Go get #21 and go to war.
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Legend [16908]
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Re: Does an NIT berth save Brownell's job?
Feb 9, 2017, 3:49 PM
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It's a contract year. They either let him go or give yet another extension. Also - why do you even try and kid yourself that a team that has only won 3 of their first 11 conference games is suddenly gonna close with an over .500 stretch.
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All-In [44050]
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We are certainly capable of 4-3 the rest of the way.
Feb 9, 2017, 6:36 PM
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I'm not saying that we will. In fact, if you read my post you would have seen that I said we are also capable of losing all of them. I don't know which direction this team will go in. The point of my post was to discuss the hypothetical situation where we make the NIT. I know you can't possibly envision our basketball team succeeding, so you should probably have just scrolled ahead without commenting.
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Legend [16908]
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sorry snowflake - didn't mean to upset you***
Feb 9, 2017, 8:22 PM
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All-In [44050]
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Your opinion doesn't matter enough to upset me.
Feb 9, 2017, 8:29 PM
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Thanks though.
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110%er [5915]
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I am not privy to what the post-season discussion
Feb 9, 2017, 3:51 PM
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between DRAD and Coach Brownell was.
I would hate to speculate on a Clemson man's job prospects.
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Orange Blooded [2332]
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Re: I am not privy to what the post-season discussion
Feb 9, 2017, 5:46 PM
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Every poster is overlooking two key groups who likely will have input regarding the immediate future of Men's and Women's BB. First IPTAY's BOD should at least be consulted and the Board of Trustees will likely have to enter into financial decisions. Drad would be wise purely from common sense to get a feel from a select number of each group as to their inclination about CBB.
Fans need to text, phone, email or plain write with their added input. The ultimate question comes down to where Clemson admin. feels programs are presently versus expectations while also considering financial questions. Personally I believe Brownell simply needs to be told to start a job search while Drad and his agent put together a separation package.
An NIT bid is not going to solve the internal problems apparent in the program in 2017.
The Women's program has marginally progressed so I would give it one additional year, but no more. The next month will be interesting to say the least.
Go Tigers!
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Legend [19694]
TigerPulse: 100%
Posts: 17289
Joined: 8/18/05
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BOT especially, just like with Bowden***
Feb 9, 2017, 7:09 PM
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All-In [44050]
TigerPulse: 81%
Posts: 32965
Joined: 2/22/03
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110%er [8009]
TigerPulse: 100%
Posts: 7959
Joined: 6/30/00
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Nope. If DRad keeps him it won't be because of an NIT invite***
Feb 9, 2017, 3:55 PM
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110%er [9028]
TigerPulse: 100%
Posts: 7378
Joined: 4/9/11
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we'll gt 3 wins, max. probably 2.***
Feb 9, 2017, 6:17 PM
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All-In [44050]
TigerPulse: 81%
Posts: 32965
Joined: 2/22/03
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I think this is probably more likely as well.
Feb 9, 2017, 6:38 PM
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The close losses have to take their toll, and an uninspired finish seems likelier than an inspired run.
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