|
Replies: 28
| visibility 1
|
Tiger Cub [10]
TigerPulse: 100%
Posts: 9
Joined: 10/16/18
|
Anyone arguing the ACC is "On Par" with the SEC should check
Jul 24, 2019, 11:52 AM
|
|
The current 247 rankings. And I know rankings don't always define the player, scheme, or coaching. But when VT only has 6 3* players committed and is ranked 91st - below UTSA, Nevada, and Massachusetts .... UGH.
We have BC, Virginia, Duke, Syracuse, and VT all below their lowly Vanderbilt who sneaks in at no. 50
At that pace, it should be a nice, long run for the good guys. Go Tigers!!
|
|
|
|
 |
Legend [16865]
TigerPulse: 100%
Posts: 9374
Joined: 11/1/14
|
Perhaps the rankings speak less to talent, when
Jul 24, 2019, 11:57 AM
|
|
Reality speaks more to 'coaching up' players? Perhaps?
If the rankings' gurus want to 'divine' themselves, then rank the classes after four years and let the standard deviation do the talking. Guaranteed, some gurus will be proven to be...lacking.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Tiger Cub [10]
TigerPulse: 100%
Posts: 9
Joined: 10/16/18
|
Re: Perhaps the rankings speak less to talent, when
Jul 24, 2019, 12:02 PM
|
|
True. Case in point, the thorough domination of Viginia over UofSC last year. However, only having 6 players committed this late in the game doesn't do much to refill the pantry. That will require some extraordinary "coaching-up"
|
|
|
|
|
|
CU Guru [1188]
TigerPulse: 88%
Posts: 1700
Joined: 1/14/12
|
Re: Perhaps the rankings speak less to talent, when
Jul 24, 2019, 12:50 PM
|
|
Perhaps the gap between leagues you reference depends, at least in part, to what season you are talking about. Last year, and maybe in 2019, there is no question. VT, FSU, Miami and others are all down at the same time. But other years, like 2015 & 2016, were much more on a par,top-to-bottom, with the SEC. Not totally equal, but close enough.
|
|
|
|
|
|
All-TigerNet [11077]
TigerPulse: 100%
Posts: 1562
Joined: 6/29/19
|
Re: Perhaps the rankings speak less to talent, when
Jul 24, 2019, 2:48 PM
|
|
All these rankings mean nothing, a bunch of finebums and there opinions. Good coaching and heart will show on the feild.
|
|
|
|
|
|
110%er [5045]
TigerPulse: 100%
Posts: 4138
Joined: 6/28/17
|
Re: Perhaps the rankings speak less to talent, when
Jul 24, 2019, 5:07 PM
[ in reply to Re: Perhaps the rankings speak less to talent, when ] |
|
"Late in the game" is not late.... We're not even half way through the 2020 recruiting cycle and they're that low because of number of commits. add 16 commits to their numbers and they're all up in the rankings like crazy. Look at Virginia basketball, they had little to no top 50 classes but won a title this year and have been dominant for 2-3 years..
|
|
|
|
|
|
CU Medallion [73569]
TigerPulse: 100%
Posts: 78044
Joined: 11/30/98
|
i've never seen anyone say the ACC is on par with the SEC
Jul 24, 2019, 12:00 PM
|
|
I DO think the SEC is overhyped too much. Overall they are definitely better, but the ACC has held its own against them. 2-3 years I would've said we were neck and neck.
Now, the ACC is pretty bad with no Louisville and FSU being good.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Hall of Famer [22127]
TigerPulse: 100%
Posts: 5026
Joined: 2/25/13
|
Re: Anyone arguing the ACC is "On Par" with the SEC should check
Jul 24, 2019, 12:04 PM
|
|
Has signing day come and gone and I missed it? I thought it was the early signing day in December and the usual first Wednesday in February signing day.
|
|
|
|
|
|
110%er [7497]
TigerPulse: 100%
Posts: 15420
Joined: 2/2/01
|
I wonder who's paying them to come up with those rankings
Jul 24, 2019, 12:12 PM
|
|
... think about it
|
|
|
|
|
|
110%er [5072]
TigerPulse: 100%
Posts: 5618
Joined: 8/17/03
|
Re: I wonder who's paying them to come up with those rankings
Jul 24, 2019, 12:41 PM
|
|
Are you saying the SEC teams are only ranked high in recruiting due to them paying the recruiting services to do so? Don't we recruit many, if not most of these highly ranked guys ourselves? Are our coaches recruiting these players because they're really good, or because they're the ones the SEC teams paid scouts to say they're good?
|
|
|
|
|
|
110%er [7497]
TigerPulse: 100%
Posts: 15420
Joined: 2/2/01
|
subscriptons..... they are giving them what they want
Jul 24, 2019, 12:54 PM
|
|
Clemson fans buy-up what those guys are feeding as well. Once you get past the obvious players in the Top 50-100 or so, a lot of is geographical and making sure their subscriber schools don't take a back to seat to some school who's fanbase doesn't give a crap about following recruiting and doesn't pay up. There are certain teams - particularly NE teams on this coast that are typically undervalued year after year from a recruiting standpoint- it shows up via their on-field performance and players they send to the NFL. BC is a highly underrated team year after year when it comes to talent.
|
|
|
|
|
|
110%er [7179]
TigerPulse: 100%
Posts: 6883
Joined: 1/25/17
|
Re: subscriptons..... they are giving them what they want
Jul 24, 2019, 1:09 PM
|
|
I would put Syracuse on that list as well. People would be surprised to see how many players Cuse has put in the NFL recently.
Again, "only the SEC has more players drafted to the NFL than the ACC"!
So, it's not a ludicrous argument based on wins/losses. If you go by recruits - the ACC won't stand a chance. But, as stated earlier. He with the largest fan base has a lot to do with where johnny 4 or 5 star gets positioned in the final rankings. Been a known thing around here for years as guys sign with Clemson; they use to lose a star or two.
Same player - sign with non-sec - drops stars. Then the novice football fan picks up a publication and interprets it as - they don't have good players!
44-16 with a outside the top 10 class! BAM!
|
|
|
|
|
|
110%er [5072]
TigerPulse: 100%
Posts: 5618
Joined: 8/17/03
|
Re: subscriptons..... they are giving them what they want
Jul 24, 2019, 4:47 PM
|
|
Syracuse has had 16 players drafted in the past 10 years, which comes out to an average of less than 2 per year, and they've had only 2 guys drafted over the past 3 years. That's surprising?
I can't find exact numbers by school beyond this past year, but I'd wager that a large portion of the ACC players drafted come from Clemson, FSU, and Miami who are all typically in the top 10-15 of recruiting rankings each year.
The recruiting rankings may not mean everything, because obviously the teams don't exactly finish in the same order as the rankings. However, let's not pretend like Clemson hasn't gotten several 4 and 5 star guys over the past several years even if the rankings have been more in the #10 range in recruiting. A lot of that has had to do with Clemson having a lot of smaller classes during this run and Dabo not being one to over sign players. It's not as if we've been pulling in classes filled with nothing but 2 and 3 star guys, or that our teams haven't been mostly led by guys like Watson, Lawrence, Williams, ETN, Higgins, Ross, Wilkins, D. Lawrence, etc... who have been highly ranked.
|
|
|
|
|
|
110%er [7179]
TigerPulse: 100%
Posts: 6883
Joined: 1/25/17
|
|
|
|
|
|
110%er [5072]
TigerPulse: 100%
Posts: 5618
Joined: 8/17/03
|
Re: subscriptons..... they are giving them what they want
Jul 24, 2019, 4:57 PM
[ in reply to Re: subscriptons..... they are giving them what they want ] |
|
CBS btw did an average of the past 5 years recruiting rankings based on the 247 composite. Alabama was #1 of course. I would link it, but I'm not sure if that's allowed or not. You can easily find it with a google though. Clemson was 8th based on this, which yes based on the results Clemson has outperformed their recruiting ranking, but it's not as if we did it with an average class outside of the top 25 or anything. We still have more talent than most, if not all of the teams we play in the regular season, and we have enough talent to not be outclassed by anyone in the 7 spots above us.
Georgia was #2, which they haven't quite lived up to, but it's not as if they've been completely out of the picture either.
Of course they're some teams in the top 10 such as USC, FSU, and Texas(interestingly non-SEC teams) who have well underachieved based on their recruiting, but for the most part the teams high up in recruiting most years tend to be the ones competing for championships.
For all the arguing that the ACC teams are so low in recruiting due to bias, when was the last time an ACC team not named Clemson or FSU even came close to being in the NC conversation late in the season? When was the last time an ACC team not named Clemson put together more than 1 or 2 seasons in a row with at least 9 wins?
|
|
|
|
|
|
110%er [5977]
TigerPulse: 100%
Posts: 6620
Joined: 11/30/98
|
Well if you use Rivals ranking U5Cjr would be 7th in the ACC
Jul 24, 2019, 12:20 PM
|
|
And is close to being 8th.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Orange Blooded [4947]
TigerPulse: 100%
Posts: 6981
Joined: 10/12/06
|
Re: Anyone arguing the ACC is "On Par" with the SEC should check
Jul 24, 2019, 12:21 PM
|
|
This is exactly the logic the ESPN FPI uses to rank 10 SEC teams in the top 20. I would argue that the geographic location of SEC teams lends itself to higher rankings. Southern players get offers from southern teams and it boost their overall ranking. If a player from NY has offers from Virginia, Cuse, and Louisville it is not looked at as highly. This trend has only compounded over the last 5 years. If the recruiting rankings were a true indicator of overall talent then SEC teams should never lose OOC.
|
|
|
|
|
|
110%er [5072]
TigerPulse: 100%
Posts: 5618
Joined: 8/17/03
|
Re: Anyone arguing the ACC is "On Par" with the SEC should check
Jul 24, 2019, 12:47 PM
|
|
It's not everything obviously, but the SEC does also get the most players drafted as well. You obviously have to coach up the players from there, have them fit a system, etc... but talent is a reason IMO that you'll see a team like BC or Syracuse put together a good season here and there, but struggle to put together multiple good seasons in a row.
Of course you also get teams like FSU and Miami who usually have highly ranked classes, but it doesn't always translate on the field. It does sometimes for FSU, but hasn't in awhile for Miami.
|
|
|
|
|
|
110%er [7179]
TigerPulse: 100%
Posts: 6883
Joined: 1/25/17
|
Re: Anyone arguing the ACC is "On Par" with the SEC should check
Jul 24, 2019, 1:04 PM
[ in reply to Re: Anyone arguing the ACC is "On Par" with the SEC should check ] |
|
whatweeatin I agree with you!
OP; what if the only measure you are going by is recruiting ranking then give Georgia the title last year!
I haven't heard many go so far as to say: "the ACC is on par with the SEC" to OP! What I contend and many others contend is: "The SEC is over-hyped and overly credited for being far and away superior"! As whatweeatin suggested - if that were a true indicator why or how do they lose any out of conference games?
So me their good record OOC; but show me the S. Miss, Citadel, Jacksonville, Savannah St, etc schools with an asterik. They may have a winning record vs. PAC 12, Big 12, Big 10 and ACC schools too; but much of their credit is for beating sun belt, conference usa, aac teams, etc.
I am old enough to remember Alabama just being awful. During Spurriers time at Florida they were winning like 4-5 games. Florida has been lucky enough to have a couple fellas ahead of the curve in Meyer and Spurrier! But, as it has been demonstrated repeatedly put a regular HC there and they are just a regular program.
There is nothing about the patch they wear that makes them special. The acolades the conference as a whole gets goes back to a handful of HC's who built that reputation.
23-23 last 46 vs. ACC does necessarily point to being on par b/c many of those are Clemson wins. But, by the measure and degree everyone likes to express how good the SEC is, "some credit is due the ACC if in fact the SEC is all people claim it is"!
You can't have it both ways!
9-3 in 2016 including final weekend sweep of SEC schools.
7-5 compared to 6-5 in favor of the ACC last year during bowl season. 7 is more than 6 any day. Would have been 8 but the BC vs. Boise St. game was cancelled.
If stats is what your using to say ACC should not be argued to be on par ( which top to bottom I would say it isn't) with the SEC; then stats to the contrary have to be considered too right?
Stats can be skewed and variables not accounted for: "like player development"! See CU winning the national title with classes outside the top 10 in recruiting(4 year average).
|
|
|
|
|
|
110%er [5072]
TigerPulse: 100%
Posts: 5618
Joined: 8/17/03
|
Re: Anyone arguing the ACC is "On Par" with the SEC should check
Jul 24, 2019, 5:07 PM
|
|
I agree with most of your points. I do think the SEC is the better football conference most years, and their outlook is better going forward due to fan support, history, money, etc... being stronger at most SEC schools with really only Clemson and FSU being able to match the support from the ACC.
However, many like to take that thought process and act as if it somehow takes anything away from what Clemson has done over the past several years. They also like to act as if every game for Clemson is against a vastly outmatched team, when really most years we have at least 2-3 legit top 25 teams to face in conference with last year being an exception.
Those same people like to pretend that every SEC game is a match between 2 legit top 5 teams while ignoring teams such as Arkansas, Ole Miss, South Carolina, TN, Vandy, etc...
I have no problem pointing out how those type of people are full of crap. I do often see some of our fans making arguments of the ACC being just as good as the SEC, and that it's only the ESPN hype machine that makes people think the ACC isn't any good. I've even seen many people argue that last season even though the Coastal champion finished the year at 7-7, and went 1-4 in OOC games which included a 31 point loss to UCF, and a 45 point loss to Penn State.
|
|
|
|
|
|
110%er [7179]
TigerPulse: 100%
Posts: 6883
Joined: 1/25/17
|
|
|
|
|
|
All-In [26514]
TigerPulse: 100%
Posts: 20654
Joined: 9/2/02
|
Are you saying the coots should have destroyed UVA ?***
Jul 24, 2019, 12:51 PM
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
All-TigerNet [13038]
TigerPulse: 100%
Posts: 22361
Joined: 4/24/04
|
It's a bit early to evaluate recruiting classes.
Jul 24, 2019, 12:54 PM
|
|
The late signing period is still 6.5 months away.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Orange Blooded [2217]
TigerPulse: 100%
Posts: 3280
Joined: 3/7/12
|
Early signing day is now THE signing day
Jul 24, 2019, 1:14 PM
|
|
That’s when 90% of classes are locked up. Very few blue chip players are deciding after that point now and most of them are deciding before their season starts.
But yes any class consisting of 6 people shouldn’t be evaluated yet but it is in a precarious position if it still only has 6 people by the start of the season.
|
|
|
|
|
|
110%er [6892]
TigerPulse: 99%
Posts: 9180
Joined: 7/11/03
|
With that type talent advantage, why is SEC record vs...
Jul 24, 2019, 2:24 PM
|
|
ACC not any better?
|
|
|
|
|
|
110%er [6168]
TigerPulse: 100%
Posts: 5089
Joined: 8/30/17
|
Re: Anyone arguing the ACC is "On Par" with the SEC should check
Jul 24, 2019, 7:24 PM
|
|
I was curious because he seemed like just the kind of player the services disrespect - Luke Kuechly was a 3 star with an 0.86 composite rating. FWIW
|
|
|
|
|
|
110%er [7179]
TigerPulse: 100%
Posts: 6883
Joined: 1/25/17
|
Re: Anyone arguing the ACC is "On Par" with the SEC should check
Jul 24, 2019, 7:40 PM
|
|
Clemson2003 - you clearly seem to think the SEC is all that. I just don't and the proof is in the pudding.
How many more times will they have to lose to Michigan St. who maybe gets a 5 star once every 2 years(Georgia) pretty sure GT wasn't in the top 20 in 2016 when they beat Georgia!
BTW - here are the 4 - 5 year ranks by 247. No where near #8. Pull it up and show me a composite of #8.
https://247sports.com/Season/2012-Football/CompositeTeamRankings/
https://247sports.com/Season/2013-Football/CompositeTeamRankings/
https://247sports.com/Season/2014-Football/CompositeTeamRankings/
https://247sports.com/Season/2015-Football/CompositeTeamRankings/
Me thinks: You have seen Finebaum too many times and have bought into the SEC hype! If it wasn't for Saban and Urban Meyer would the image of the conference be the same. NO. Two good coaches a Phreak Athlete for Auburn(CAM) and all of a sudden this is the best thing since sliced bread. NO. Where was the SEC when it was Bobby Bowden and whoever the Miami coach was? Sure Miami wasn't in the ACC at the time; but their school is in the conference now and it's about "the collection of schools"!
If all this stuff means they are basically assured to be good - why play the games? Why not base everything on who has the best team on paper? Why, because you can't measure "immeasurable s"! No one will argue the recruiting rankings! But, when the teams on battle it out on the football field - where the game is actually played - I don't see 3 point wins vs. Purdue as impressive or (indicative) of all the hype and praise. Purdue wouldn't have a class inside the top 25 let alone top 10. But, then a "win is a win argument comes along"! Which would mean you or anyone that argues further don't get what people are saying! Because, to let people who put all their hopes and prayers on what the rankings indicate. Or the ESPN hype about the SEC and what it suggest - one would think they are just blowing people out. Not the case; and sometimes they getting that butt handed to them! LINK.
https://www.sports-reference.com/cfb/conferences/big-ten/bowls.html
https://www.sports-reference.com/cfb/conferences/acc/bowls.html
|
|
|
|
|
|
All-In [27366]
TigerPulse: 100%
Posts: 26233
Joined: 9/19/11
|
So how come w'eve regulary beat them head to head.
Jul 24, 2019, 7:49 PM
|
|
Sumptin' don't add up.
|
|
|
|
|
|
110%er [7179]
TigerPulse: 100%
Posts: 6883
Joined: 1/25/17
|
Re: So how come w'eve regulary beat them head to head.
Jul 24, 2019, 7:54 PM
|
|
The people who watch ESPN and basically "worship it's teachings" can't get out of the SEC-tabernacle long enough to understand - the SEC didn't invent football and aren't the only group of schools playing good football or putting players in the NFL! @ BengalBilly
|
|
|
|
|
|
Replies: 28
| visibility 1
|
|
|
50
