|
Replies: 53
| visibility 2516
|
110%er [3646]
TigerPulse: 80%
35
|
If god puts people in power
2
May 22, 2025, 8:30 AM
|
|
He put Hitler in power.
“Let everyone be subject to the governing authorities, for there is no authority except that which God has established. The authorities that exist have been established by God. 2 Consequently, whoever rebels against the authority is rebelling against what God has instituted, and those who do so will bring judgment on themselves.”
So was it not wrong for us to invade Germany?
What about the American Revolution?
|
|
|
|
 |
Oculus Spirit [42179]
TigerPulse: 100%
57
Posts: 14727
Joined: 2013
|
God doesn't put people in power. Don't be silly.***
2
May 22, 2025, 8:37 AM
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Ultimate Tiger [33531]
TigerPulse: 100%
56
Posts: 19285
Joined: 2000
|
Re: God doesn't put people in power. Don't be silly.***
May 26, 2025, 12:35 AM
|
|
* refer to Matthew 28:18
|
|
|
|
|
|
Ultimate Clemson Legend [102991]
TigerPulse: 100%
64
Posts: 99000
Joined: 2009
|
Re: If god puts people in power
1
May 22, 2025, 8:40 AM
|
|
2 timothy 2:
"20 But in a great house there are not only vessels of gold and of silver, but also of wood and of earth; and some to honour, and some to dishonour.
21 If a man therefore purge himself from these, he shall be a vessel unto honour, sanctified, and meet for the master's use, and prepared unto every good work."
I'd imagine most world leaders are and have always been vessels of dishonor.
|
|
|
|
|
|
110%er [3646]
TigerPulse: 80%
35
|
Re: If god puts people in power
2
May 22, 2025, 8:58 AM
|
|
But the Bible literally says do not oppose those in power. We just read it. I see it with my own eyes.
What does that mean?
|
|
|
|
|
|
Clemson Icon [27455]
TigerPulse: 100%
54
Posts: 18444
Joined: 2024
|
Re: If god puts people in power
1
May 22, 2025, 9:04 AM
|
|
Just nonsense like the rest of the Bible and ways to control people, which can be good at times .
|
|
|
|
|
|
110%er [3646]
TigerPulse: 80%
35
|
Re: If god puts people in power
2
May 22, 2025, 9:14 AM
|
|
Strange verse though from a historical perspective. Christians were being fed to lions and lit on fire in the streets.
Kind of lends credence to the theory that Christianity was a Roman concoction to control the Jewish uprisings in the first century.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Orange Immortal [65756]
TigerPulse: 100%
60
Posts: 49287
Joined: 2000
|
Yeah, but you're not reading it right because you won't submit to God.
1
May 23, 2025, 11:23 AM
[ in reply to Re: If god puts people in power ] |
|
And I speak on behalf of God.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Ultimate Clemson Legend [102991]
TigerPulse: 100%
64
Posts: 99000
Joined: 2009
|
Why would a man want to oppose authority?
May 26, 2025, 7:22 AM
[ in reply to Re: If god puts people in power ] |
|
What happens when a man refuses his boss?
What happens when a man refuses the police?
What happens when a man refuses the judge?
What happens when a man refuses city government?
What happens when a man refuses God?
The compliance with authority is why you have a job. It's the key to your family's survival. That scripture is sound advise even to those who rebel against God.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Clemson Icon [26103]
TigerPulse: 100%
54
Posts: 14895
Joined: 2001
|
Re: If god puts people in power
3
May 22, 2025, 10:33 AM
|
|
Not only did Paul say that, but Peter said the same thing in 1 Peter. I think they would say the same things to us today, us specifically, for the same reasons. Does that mean we can't stop genocide?
First, it seems to me that this was not a political comment. That is not a political letter, so the comment isn't either. Jesus-as-Savior was a radical departure from the Jewish belief of that time, or even now. Life to them was all about politics and national identity, and the Messiah would set that 'right', 'right' being Israel being not only free of occupation but dominant on the world stage. Life/religion/politics were all the same, except for those 600-whatever laws the Sanhedrin held over you. In modern terms, could say it was all about oppressed/oppressor.
Jesus frees one from all that. No one, no govt, no circumstance can affect God's plans for me. I would be surprised if Paul had not said to Jews of that time, "Stop thinking the Romans are the problem. It's not them, so they can't be the solution." When I read that passage, knowing what the letter is about, that is what I hear.
That is why in Acts 4 or 5, Peter, who also said to respect authority, said when arrested, "I can't not follow God's law." He was going to do what he was called to do, but had they arrested him again he would not have called for political rebellion.
We have a modern example in MLK. His letter from jail reads much the same way. He called for change, suffered the consequences, continued to call for change, all while saying rebellion was wrong. Truth won the day. BLM is the opposite of MLK.
Where are we today? An ex-FBI director posts "86-47", and we view that post, either humorous or illegal, along party lines. We are in full almost-armed combat. Paul would say to us today, I think, "You have to stop that. You can't trust Jesus and fight each other about politics at the same time."
That does not mean politics and its necessary disagreements are wrong, nor does it mean a person has a right to kill another by hiding behind his authority. The NT is about Jesus, not law.
|
|
|
|
|
|
110%er [3646]
TigerPulse: 80%
35
|
Re: If god puts people in power
1
May 22, 2025, 1:34 PM
|
|
"Jesus-as-Savior was a radical departure from the Jewish belief of that time"
It was a radical departure from the Old Testament, where god laid waste to Israel's enemies, and promised that the nation would be restored. Then you've got guys saying it's ok to eat what these people eat, not be circumcised, and that you should respect those who are persecuting you...No wonder the majority of Jews didn't go along with it. Those Jews who did, and ironically also walked and talked with Jesus, at least attempted to keep the old system relevant. To me that seems extremely suspicious, that Jesus was Jewish to the core, but it was gentiles making the rules in early christianity.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Clemson Icon [26103]
TigerPulse: 100%
54
Posts: 14895
Joined: 2001
|
Re: If god puts people in power
May 22, 2025, 2:28 PM
|
|
They did indeed attempt to keep the old system relevant. And they were the ones who realized they were wrong about that. It wasn't the gentiles making rules: when some Christians imposed Jewish law on them after they came to faith, the gentiles went along with it.
To say Paul got hot about it hardly describes it, to the degree that he was as mad with the Galatians for falling for it as he was with the people who led them into it. He then traveled many miles to have it out with Peter, no shrinking violet himself, so I picture a 90 decibel conversation. And you know what? Peter heard it all out and admitted that he and others had been wrong. This was a huge realization for them, that the Jewish law had no saving ability.
Jewish law had universal moral law (The 10), and behavioral/ceremonial requirements. Those who, as you say, 'walked and talked with Jesus' were the ones who first understood what Jesus 'fulfilling' the law meant: with universal law embodied in God who sacrificed for us, the ceremonial requirements were unnecessary. The ones who walked and talked with Jesus removed them from themselves and the gentiles. In case anyone missed the point, they began worshiping on, gasp, the day after Sabbath. And you could skip that if you needed to.
So, rather than suspicious, it is truthful and freeing to anyone who is ready to reject worldly law everyone is under.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Orange Immortal [65756]
TigerPulse: 100%
60
Posts: 49287
Joined: 2000
|
You are working really hard to make something plain and
1
May 23, 2025, 11:31 AM
[ in reply to Re: If god puts people in power ] |
|
straightforward and simple say something you want it to say in order to make it fit your narrative.
“Let everyone be subject to the governing authorities, for there is no authority except that which God has established. The authorities that exist have been established by God. 2 Consequently, whoever rebels against the authority is rebelling against what God has instituted, and those who do so will bring judgment on themselves.”
No hidden meanings. No deep dive required. Hitler and the Nazis were the governing authorities. According to scripture, God established Hitler as the authority, and everyone was to obey. That's exactly what it says. It took you 7 long paragraphs trying to explain why it doesn't really mean what it says.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Clemson Icon [26103]
TigerPulse: 100%
54
Posts: 14895
Joined: 2001
|
Re: You are working really hard to make something plain and
May 23, 2025, 12:20 PM
|
|
Lifting a sentence away from its message is purposely simplistic. Or maybe not on purpose, the best one can do. Either way, it is an easy way to reach a predetermined end. Like trotting out the square circle 10 times a week. But continue on.
|
|
|
|
|
|
110%er [3646]
TigerPulse: 80%
35
|
Re: You are working really hard to make something plain and
1
May 23, 2025, 1:08 PM
|
|
You’ve shifted the focus from god putting Hitler in authority to why Paul said what he said. Smiling attempted to point that out and you ignored it again.
God put Hitler in authority. Why would he do such a thing?
|
|
|
|
|
|
Clemson Icon [26103]
TigerPulse: 100%
54
Posts: 14895
Joined: 2001
|
Re: You are working really hard to make something plain and
May 23, 2025, 2:07 PM
|
|
To keep all this short:
God is in control of all things.
I trust him with that.
This means whatever I am unhappy about, or whatever you did, you didnt cause my unhappiness.
I therefore cant fix any problems in life by changing you or what you do.
I therefore have to let you do you.
If you kidnap my child, I will kill you to save him.
If you do not see how the last item is not inconsistent with the previous 5, and how that relates to Romans, I will move to the previous step and let you do you.
Insert the square circle response.
|
|
|
|
|
|
110%er [3646]
TigerPulse: 80%
35
|
Re: You are working really hard to make something plain and
May 23, 2025, 2:23 PM
|
|
That’s fine. But personally, when I hear “god puts people in authority”, and then I see Hitler was in authority, I think the writer of Romans wasn’t speaking a universal truth from god. I don’t know what his intentions were writing that, but they seem suspicious.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Orange Immortal [65756]
TigerPulse: 100%
60
Posts: 49287
Joined: 2000
|
Just going by the idea that the Bible is the infallible word of God,
1
May 23, 2025, 4:17 PM
|
|
God is telling people, through Paul, that he establishes all governing authorities, and to rebel against them is to rebel against God. That is literally what God says. No ifs or buts. No parables, no hidden messages or numeric codes. The context is God, through Paul, talking mainly to the Christians of Rome. The way it is written, it sure seems like universal truth is being invoked.
Do I personally think God said or inspired that? No, I don't. I really can't explain why it was written in the first place, or included in the epistle.
I do think Hitler was part of God's plan, but not exactly in the way most people think, with God, separate from all else directing all of that to affect the humans and their souls he'd created. I think we are literally part of God, just like waves are part of the ocean and rays are part of the sun. God lives through us, and wants to personally experience everything that happens in this dimension; the pain, the suffering, the fear, the peace, the love, the joy, the laughter, the heat and the cold, etc.. It's all part of his grand, incomprehensible design and his unimaginable vastness. We, as fractals of God, choose to come here and experience these things. Our own souls are constantly growing and evolving toward the perfection that is our ultimate destiny.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Orange Immortal [65756]
TigerPulse: 100%
60
Posts: 49287
Joined: 2000
|
Re: You are working really hard to make something plain and
May 23, 2025, 1:10 PM
[ in reply to Re: You are working really hard to make something plain and ] |
|
I think you mean lifting a sentence away from what you want the message to be, as opposed to what it says.
The passage/context is clearly about human government, which was Rome at the time, as in the one to which taxes are paid, as it clearly states. Paul clearly is instructing followers to obey Roman authority in this particular case, but bases it on the belief that all Governments were established by God and are therefore to be obeyed(that's exactly what he says). He doesn't say to obey in order to stay safe and avoid trouble from an unjust authority. Instead, he reminds them that God has established the government of Rome as an authority to be obeyed. That's literally what he says.
You may derive a different meaning, based on a larger, separate belief you hold about scripture and it's message, but that's your interpretation. I'm just going by what it says, taking into account the context, which you obviously interpret differently.
|
|
|
|
|
|
National Champion [7233]
TigerPulse: 100%
42
Posts: 11061
Joined: 2003
|
Re: You are working really hard to make something plain and
May 23, 2025, 1:23 PM
|
|
God raises up and God tears down. Someone has to be the players in His plan to tear down.
|
|
|
|
|
|
110%er [3646]
TigerPulse: 80%
35
|
Re: You are working really hard to make something plain and
1
May 23, 2025, 1:37 PM
|
|
I just don’t understand the concept or evidence of one single being being in the background orchestrating all these events number one.
Number two how can you call whatever is behind all that a perfect loving being?
|
|
|
|
|
|
National Champion [7233]
TigerPulse: 100%
42
Posts: 11061
Joined: 2003
|
Re: You are working really hard to make something plain and
May 23, 2025, 3:17 PM
|
|
I believe those things because The Bible tells me those things. I believe The Bible because The Spirit confirms it in my heart.
As the Bible says, Foolishness to the natural man.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Orange Immortal [65756]
TigerPulse: 100%
60
Posts: 49287
Joined: 2000
|
I believe what I believe because the spirit confirms it in my heart as well.
May 23, 2025, 3:33 PM
|
|
My faith is in God, confirmed as such as a result of prayer and the use of the tools God gave me, not so much in what other people believe or have decided is true and put together in a book.
|
|
|
|
|
|
110%er [3646]
TigerPulse: 80%
35
|
Re: You are working really hard to make something plain and
May 23, 2025, 4:29 PM
[ in reply to Re: You are working really hard to make something plain and ] |
|
Meh, the whole “feel it in my heart” thing is just a way to confirm your own beliefs.
If you were truly searching for truth you would admit that a lot of what evangelical Christianity teaches is illogical.
|
|
|
|
|
|
National Champion [7233]
TigerPulse: 100%
42
Posts: 11061
Joined: 2003
|
Re: If god puts people in power
1
May 22, 2025, 5:46 PM
|
|
Germany started the war. Japan drug is into it.
As to American Revolution, I do indeed see it as breaking Biblical command.
|
|
|
|
|
|
110%er [3646]
TigerPulse: 80%
35
|
Re: If god puts people in power
May 23, 2025, 4:30 PM
|
|
Your god orchestrated the whole thing. Millions of Jews including women and children led to the gas chamber was because of “Him”. Explain that to me…
|
|
|
|
|
|
Orange Immortal [65756]
TigerPulse: 100%
60
Posts: 49287
Joined: 2000
|
Great, reasonable questions.
2
May 23, 2025, 11:22 AM
|
|
Don't expect reasonable answers.
You don't know the answers because you aren't elected. Or because you choose to deny the truth. Or because you aren't meant to understand, only accept. and so on.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Orange Immortal [65756]
TigerPulse: 100%
60
Posts: 49287
Joined: 2000
|
I do love this from Romans 13 . . .
May 23, 2025, 4:37 PM
|
|
8 Let no debt remain outstanding, except the continuing debt to love one another, for whoever loves others has fulfilled the law. 9 The commandments, “You shall not commit adultery,” “You shall not murder,” “You shall not steal,” “You shall not covet,” and whatever other command there may be, are summed up in this one command: “Love your neighbor as yourself.” 10 Love does no harm to a neighbor. Therefore love is the fulfillment of the law.
I don't know how much clearer and simpler it could be. LOVE is the fulfillment of the law.
|
|
|
|
|
|
National Champion [7233]
TigerPulse: 100%
42
Posts: 11061
Joined: 2003
|
Re: I do love this from Romans 13 . . .
May 23, 2025, 6:09 PM
|
|
That is referencing the law regarding other people. It is not the law regarding God.
|
|
|
|
|
|
National Champion [7233]
TigerPulse: 100%
42
Posts: 11061
Joined: 2003
|
Re: I do love this from Romans 13 . . .
May 23, 2025, 6:28 PM
|
|
Mr 22:37-39 gives both the keeping in regard to God and in regard to man.
Loving The Lord God with all your heart, soul, and mind is the great requirement.
As the context readily shows, keeping “the great commandment” is impossible.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Orange Immortal [65756]
TigerPulse: 100%
60
Posts: 49287
Joined: 2000
|
Okay, so it doesn't mean what it says, that whatever other commands may be
May 24, 2025, 3:16 PM
|
|
are summed up in this one. Instead, it means something else, based on your determination. Cool.
|
|
|
|
|
|
National Champion [7233]
TigerPulse: 100%
42
Posts: 11061
Joined: 2003
|
Re: Okay, so it doesn't mean what it says, that whatever other commands may be
May 24, 2025, 3:20 PM
|
|
If you read the passage you cited, it is most obvious it is dealing with relationships between men. Jesus gave us The Great Command.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Orange Immortal [65756]
TigerPulse: 100%
60
Posts: 49287
Joined: 2000
|
Re: Okay, so it doesn't mean what it says, that whatever other commands may be
May 24, 2025, 8:38 PM
|
|
Okie Dokie
|
|
|
|
|
|
National Champion [7233]
TigerPulse: 100%
42
Posts: 11061
Joined: 2003
|
Re: Okay, so it doesn't mean what it says, that whatever other commands may be
May 25, 2025, 1:22 PM
|
|
Yeppers.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Orange Immortal [65756]
TigerPulse: 100%
60
Posts: 49287
Joined: 2000
|
Re: Okay, so it doesn't mean what it says, that whatever other commands may be
May 25, 2025, 3:15 PM
|
|
You'd think it would be presented in a way that made that clear, so that sincere seekers would not be so confused by it. Of course, if some are elected and some are not, it doesn't make much difference.
|
|
|
|
|
|
National Champion [7233]
TigerPulse: 100%
42
Posts: 11061
Joined: 2003
|
Re: Okay, so it doesn't mean what it says, that whatever other commands may be
May 25, 2025, 4:18 PM
|
|
Sound theology is built on a systematic approach.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Clemson Icon [27455]
TigerPulse: 100%
54
Posts: 18444
Joined: 2024
|
Re: Okay, so it doesn't mean what it says, that whatever other commands may be
May 25, 2025, 4:31 PM
|
|
You're one confused man.
|
|
|
|
|
|
National Champion [7233]
TigerPulse: 100%
42
Posts: 11061
Joined: 2003
|
Re: Okay, so it doesn't mean what it says, that whatever other commands may be
May 26, 2025, 12:30 PM
|
|
Systematic theology is the basis of Biblical interpretation.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Ultimate Clemson Legend [102991]
TigerPulse: 100%
64
Posts: 99000
Joined: 2009
|
|
|
|
|
|
Clemson Sports Icon [52919]
TigerPulse: 100%
59
Posts: 32733
Joined: 1999
|
Misspelled "God"***
May 25, 2025, 9:38 PM
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Ultimate Tiger [33367]
TigerPulse: 100%
56
Posts: 16949
Joined: 2014
|
Re: If god puts people in power
May 27, 2025, 1:06 AM
|
|
Who's your authority? Perhaps we serve different authorities.
|
|
|
|
|
|
110%er [3646]
TigerPulse: 80%
35
|
Re: If god puts people in power
May 27, 2025, 11:47 AM
|
|
My authority seems to be nature.
I’m just waiting to die and trying to enjoy life along the way.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Ultimate Tiger [33367]
TigerPulse: 100%
56
Posts: 16949
Joined: 2014
|
Re: If god puts people in power
May 27, 2025, 2:08 AM
|
|
There is no authority except that which God has established
Seems pretty clear
|
|
|
|
|
|
110%er [3646]
TigerPulse: 80%
35
|
Re: If god puts people in power
May 27, 2025, 11:46 AM
|
|
Exactly.
|
|
|
|
|
|
National Champion [7233]
TigerPulse: 100%
42
Posts: 11061
Joined: 2003
|
Re: If god puts people in power
May 27, 2025, 3:27 PM
[ in reply to Re: If god puts people in power ] |
|
Yep, then comes the time for God to tear down that leader. The replacement is doing the work of God by being the agent that tears down the leader God is finished with.
|
|
|
|
|
|
110%er [3646]
TigerPulse: 80%
35
|
Re: If god puts people in power
May 27, 2025, 3:37 PM
|
|
So god put Hitler in power to kill millions of Jews?
|
|
|
|
|
|
National Champion [7233]
TigerPulse: 100%
42
Posts: 11061
Joined: 2003
|
Re: If god puts people in power
May 27, 2025, 3:57 PM
|
|
Don’t know. Maybe. Look at Old Testament. He raised up many leaders to punish them when they sinned against Him.
|
|
|
|
|
|
110%er [3646]
TigerPulse: 80%
35
|
Re: If god puts people in power
May 27, 2025, 4:13 PM
|
|
Ah, right. Millions of Jews were slaughtered so god could show off by taking Hitler down.
|
|
|
|
|
|
National Champion [7233]
TigerPulse: 100%
42
Posts: 11061
Joined: 2003
|
Re: If god puts people in power
May 27, 2025, 4:15 PM
|
|
I don’t know what His purpose was, but He had one.
|
|
|
|
|
|
110%er [3646]
TigerPulse: 80%
35
|
Re: If god puts people in power
May 27, 2025, 4:45 PM
|
|
I bet Hitler told those Germans that opposed him something similar.
|
|
|
|
|
|
National Champion [7233]
TigerPulse: 100%
42
Posts: 11061
Joined: 2003
|
Re: If god puts people in power
May 27, 2025, 5:25 PM
|
|
Might indeed have
|
|
|
|
|
|
110%er [3646]
TigerPulse: 80%
35
|
Re: If god puts people in power
May 28, 2025, 7:02 PM
|
|
It truly is baffling that you can just throw your hands up at the thought of your god orchestrating the slaughter of millions of helpless people.
|
|
|
|
|
|
National Champion [7233]
TigerPulse: 100%
42
Posts: 11061
Joined: 2003
|
Re: If god puts people in power
May 28, 2025, 8:57 PM
|
|
He is sovereign. He is omnipotent. He is omniscient. He is Love. He is mercy. He is just. He is holy. He is judgment. I have no problem reconciling those attributes.
|
|
|
|
|
|
National Champion [7233]
TigerPulse: 100%
42
Posts: 11061
Joined: 2003
|
Re: If god puts people in power
May 27, 2025, 3:28 PM
[ in reply to Re: If god puts people in power ] |
|
Yep, then comes the time for God to tear down that leader. The replacement is doing the work of God by being the agent that tears down the leader God is finished with.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Replies: 53
| visibility 2516
|
|
|
50
