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110%er [3682]
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I was a Cubs fan growing up
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May 18, 2025, 2:58 PM
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Even though I’ve never been to Chicago.
Why? Because we had WGN and they were on most afternoons when I got home from school.
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National Champion [7287]
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Re: I was a Cubs fan growing up
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May 18, 2025, 3:08 PM
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Good for you.
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CU Medallion [20309]
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Aren't you glad you didn't grow up a coot fan?
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May 18, 2025, 5:33 PM
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Talk about being stuck in hell.
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Clemson Icon [26181]
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Re: I was a Cubs fan growing up
May 18, 2025, 6:35 PM
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Nevertheless, lots of childhood fans give up on the Cubs later in life, and lots of people become Cubs fans later in life. If childhood exposure has any positive effect at all, it seems to be due to the unique, intrinsic nature of the Cubs that turns off some Chicago natives and attracts many non-Chicagoans.
Your observation of taught fanhood is valid, but moreso regarding clubs other than the unique Cubs, such as the Padres.
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Orange Immortal [66006]
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If you were born and raised in India
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May 18, 2025, 7:07 PM
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You'd be playing crickett.
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Clemson Icon [27586]
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Re: If you were born and raised in India
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May 18, 2025, 7:08 PM
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That's the point he was getting at in a way as we know. He was exposed to the Cubs or he would have never been a fan. Kind of like the USA and being Christian or Iran and being Muslim.
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Clemson Icon [26181]
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Re: If you were born and raised in India
May 18, 2025, 7:28 PM
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I think this shows the opposite conclusion. Cubs hats can be found worldwide. Not Padres hats or cricket hats. Early exposure has an effect, of course, but almost always locally. To understand what that means one has to acknowledge the outlier, which the Cubs are.
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Orange Immortal [66006]
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Re: If you were born and raised in India
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May 18, 2025, 9:00 PM
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I think the point is that a bazillion people have been born in places and times where they had zero chance of accepting Jesus Christ as their Lord and Savior, and time and place usually has a significant impact on one's religious beliefs. All through no fault of the person, and it would be wrong for them to be punished for that, much less spend eternity in hell.
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Clemson Icon [26181]
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Re: If you were born and raised in India
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May 18, 2025, 10:58 PM
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Your first comment, while often assumed, is not as factual as you think. Dog and I have been through this quite a while ago, but everywhere you go on the planet, no matter the secular or religious culture, one finds within a few percentage points the same number of followers of Jesus. And its a lot less than you think, around 5% in the most 'Christian' culture, about 3% in the least. The way is narrow everywhere, and the Spirit makes Himself known in all places.
I'll grant you this: people dont want to hear it.
But Cubs hats are found everywhere nevertheless. This hasnt been hypothetical: name a continent, and either I've been there or they have been here with me. People have heard the Gospel, and few want it. We love them all, and wish it were different.
When exceptions occur, they are miraculous. I had an opportunity a few years ago to return to Sao Paulo for the first time since first grade. I cant explain how I knew, but I had a mental picture of meeting the current owner of my childhood home, presenting him with a gift, and leading him to Jesus. Before leaving the US I got the address of the house from my dad. On the last day of my visit I had given up: our schedule didn't allow free time. At the last moment a few free hours opened up, and I pulled out the scrap of paper and showed it to my host. Feeling stupid, I asked him if in this city of 20 million people he might be familiar with this three block long street. "Sure", he said. "Its right down the street." That alone defies the odds.
We went, and I walked up and down the street, trying to place my eye with my memory. It had of course changed so much, mostly with trees, etc. I stopped at the one I was sure was mine from 40 years earlier, a Cubist structure, still white. The owner saw us standing in the street, came out and fussed at my host. We did look suspicious. Explanations ensued, the owner brightened, invited us in. When I walked in the door I was transported back 4 decades. Nothing in the house had changed. My deceased mom, now young, in green taffeta dress, was hosting my 1st Grade birthday party. I went through to the small back yard that still contained a 10X10 outbuilding, now housing junk, but once being nice living quarters for Miersa, our live-in maid. I went in to the building, stood where her bed had been, mentally sat on it like I had so many afternoons. She hugged me as always, and I hugged her for a last time.
I went back into the house and had coffee with the owner. I gave him the gift, and told him, through my host, that I bought it three weeks earlier, knowing I would meet him. He said, "I can see this moment is important to you." "Yes", I said, "It is, to this point, the second most important day of my life. Would you like to hear about the first most important?" He did, and I told him that for 30+ years of my life I had lived as everyone else, working to build a life and own a place as nice as this one. I always wanted a place like this, one like I remembered, and I got one. At the end I had nothing worth keeping, and nothing I could keep even if I wanted to. At that point I told him what what happened next was too important to translate, and I let my host communicate the Gospel story in Portuguese. I could see the head nods, and I knew the owner was indicating a desire to surrender to Jesus. I actually thought, "This is too easy. He's going along because I'm a visiting American." I'm arrogant that way.
But when that was over he looked up and said: "This is a happy and sad day. Today is Father's Day, and I now realize I have not been a good father. I now know who Jesus is, and I am happy for that, but my family does not, though we go to church. I have asked God to show me who He is, and now I know but they don't, and I don't know what to do." No worries, we said. Just tell them what we told you, but from your experience just now. We'll even come back and have dinner with you all, to help you explain. "But for me and my house, we will follow the Lord." That happened that day.
That is the way it always happens. I know people in Asia, Eastern Europe, Central US who came to faith like that. A guy in Hong Kong came all the way here, and we had coffee in Coffee Underground. His question: "A few people in Hong Kong say they are Christians, but it is because they do business with people in America. Is Christianity a religion about money?" I said, "That is not far from the truth. But that is not who Jesus was." Two hours later he walked out as a follower of Jesus, and a week after he got home he and his family found a church there and were baptized. Percentage wise, there are not many fewer Christians in HK than in Greenville. Church attendance is far different: objectively measured followers of Jesus, not much different.
Cubs hats are everywhere.
Message was edited by: CUintulsa®
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Clemson Icon [27586]
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Re: If you were born and raised in India
May 18, 2025, 11:17 PM
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They don't really hear about Jesus and it doesn't work that way. That would be like saying that you had a chance to be Hindu in the US, but you didn't bite. You would never be Hindu being born here, buy you likely would have been had you been born in India.
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Clemson Icon [26181]
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Re: If you were born and raised in India
May 18, 2025, 11:47 PM
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They heard as clearly as you did, just not the same way, but with the same response. You are not unique for having rejected Him. You are in the overwhelming majority, in the US and anywhere.
And everywhere you go, the Cubs hats are there. 5%, give or take.
Message was edited by: CUintulsa®
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Clemson Icon [27586]
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Re: If you were born and raised in India
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May 18, 2025, 11:47 PM
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Not even similar . Nice try.
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Clemson Icon [26181]
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Re: If you were born and raised in India
May 19, 2025, 12:14 AM
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No, really, almost exactly the same response. How they hear is widely different. With a few notable historical exceptions that prove the generalization, 'no' has always been the most common answer.
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Clemson Icon [27586]
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Re: If you were born and raised in India
May 19, 2025, 12:15 AM
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Your perspective is laughably ignorant and unrealistic.
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Clemson Icon [26181]
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Re: If you were born and raised in India
May 19, 2025, 12:41 AM
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You dont like actual data. I can show you that the most likely number of followers of Jesus in the US is about 5%. I know that doesnt fit your assumptions, but that's what it is. It's been that way for 20 years, and retested periodically.
Curiously, atheist/agnostic, who routinely talk about declining church attendance, are the ones who most resist believing this data. I have no idea why this is, unless they want to continue the narrative that it's all about where one is born, or maybe they like thinking they are the counter culture ones, and don't like facing the fact that the non believer is simply one of the 95%.
You upvoted a post below that characterized the modern US church as similar to a corrupt temple 2000 years ago. "It was in bed with government (Rome) & had a professional priest class who enriched themselves at the expense of the laity while neglecting the important spiritual matters." If that characterizes the church today, why do you have a problem believing that 5% objectively qualify as followers of Jesus? If the post you agreed with is true, one would expect that a high percentage of church goers "have the form of godliness but deny the power thereof." The 5% is not only empirical, but it makes intuitive sense if the characterization of the church is correct.
Message was edited by: CUintulsa®
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110%er [3682]
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Re: If you were born and raised in India
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May 19, 2025, 8:12 AM
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I see where you’re coming from Christianity is everywhere but so are other religions. There are Muslims in the US.
Where do you get this idea though that you know statistically how many people are truly Christian’s?
Genuinely interested in your response. I actually heard a pastor say one time that it was the people who came back on Sunday night. True story.
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Clemson Icon [27586]
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Re: If you were born and raised in India
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May 19, 2025, 10:19 AM
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Moreover, Christianity being everywhere doesn't mean much. What is the norm means way way more.
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Clemson Icon [26181]
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Re: If you were born and raised in India
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May 19, 2025, 11:06 AM
[ in reply to Re: If you were born and raised in India ] |
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I obviously don't know what the pastor was getting at, but cause/effect get confused. I did miss this Sunday night, and the last couple hundred, so there is that. On one end of the scale there is a place like Poland, where maybe 90% are Catholic. If you're born there, you will say you are Catholic. I have been in a church there on a Sunday morning, seen a handful in there, a dozen people in a place that would hold hundreds. What to make of that? We're more 'Christian'? We've already rejected 'Sunday night' as a measure, so Sunday morning can't tell us much.
All we know is that only Jesus knows who has answered his Rev 3:20 knock. Anyone can claim Christianity, and Jesus himself said, "Many will say, 'Didn't we ...', and I will say, 'I never knew you.'" John 3:16 and Rev 3:20 are states of the heart that cannot be humanly measured.
However, you and I have discussed Barna. Because religion and politics were getting mingled, and media was making claims about "evangelicals", which seems to mean, "people it is okay to hate", Barna decided to get an objective measure on how many there actually are. How to measure the immeasurable? Barna decided to ask a few (I forget how many, 5, 7 or 9) questions to which only an actual follow of Jesus would answer 'yes' to. These are the most bottom shelf questions I can imagine, such as 'Jesus lived a sinless life', 'salvation comes through Jesus's death/resurrection', and 'salvation cannot be earned via good deeds'. When that study was first done 20 years ago, only 8% or 9% of the population answered yes to those. That has been declining, I think now 5%. [Surprisingly, 70% of those do not own a firearm.]. None were asked whether they were 'Christian.'
Does that absolutely mean that only 5% of the population are Rev 3:20 followers of Jesus? No. Some who won't answer yes to all, are, and some who do, aren't. But it's not a large %, not nearly as large as we assume, given high self identification, church attendance, etc.
Sure, all religions are everywhere. I am not claiming popularity of Rev 3:20. Just the opposite. However, they are everywhere, in kinda/sorta equal numbers, as a %.
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110%er [3682]
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Re: If you were born and raised in India
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May 19, 2025, 12:28 PM
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There’s nothing really for me to argue against in your post. I’ll just point out that the lack of clarity regarding who is and who isn’t truly a Christian kinda points to it not being the answer to eternal life.
I mean, don’t you have to be able to define something to call it truth? Too much grey area. For example you said people were asked if Jesus lived a sinless life…where does it say one has to believe that in order to truly be a Christian?
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Clemson Icon [26181]
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Re: If you were born and raised in India
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May 19, 2025, 9:18 PM
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Nothing to argue against? Gosh, I'm losing my touch. 
The difficulty here is that for my perspective to be true, Rev 3:20 has to be an actual thing. I believe it is, while you, Smiling, Lester and Ford do not. How does that affect this conversation?
If it is a thing, I would know Jesus from an experiential view, like I know my wife. Adjectives like sinless, good, loving or just would not describe the Jesus I know. He would transcend human adjectives, because we would exist as a manifestation of those things. My view of him would not be primarily from theology, philosophy or even biblical literature, but from 'knowing', as one knows a spouse.
However, if it is not a thing, you are entirely correct that the study of religion is a subset of sociology, its beliefs and spread a matter of anthropology. This seems to be the point, or a point, of Ford's posts. If Rev 3:20 is not a communication from Jesus, I would look at Jesus as you guys do.
Given those two viewpoints, we both look at "Christianity". You see people going to church. I see Rev 3:20 people. We therefore will have two different descriptions. We will see different people, and will see Christianity existing for two different reasons, and spreading by two different methods.
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Clemson Icon [27586]
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Re: If you were born and raised in India
May 19, 2025, 12:28 PM
[ in reply to Re: If you were born and raised in India ] |
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The point is that the exposure is meaningless. You can say I was exposed to Scientology was well. I don't even what you're really trying to convey.
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Orange Immortal [66006]
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Re: If you were born and raised in India
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May 19, 2025, 12:02 PM
[ in reply to Re: If you were born and raised in India ] |
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the Spirit makes Himself known in all places.
I love you man, but I think that is hogwash, IF you mean that everyone who has ever lived knew that they needed to accept Jesus Christ as their personal Lord and Savior, or in some way received that message, which I am told is the only way to heaven. I think it's a ridiculous, obviously false assertion or belief. But, lets assume that is somehow true; most people in Saudi Arabia or India or China are going to quite naturally and reasonably respond, through no fault of their own, when they hear about Jesus the same way most Americans who are raised in Christian homes will respond when they hear about Buddhism or Hinduism.
And there are still places where people have no idea who or what The Cubs are, and all they know about Jesus is that he represents the enemy or a false religion.
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Clemson Icon [27586]
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Re: If you were born and raised in India
May 19, 2025, 12:58 PM
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Exactly. It's irrational.
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Clemson Icon [26181]
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Re: If you were born and raised in India
May 18, 2025, 7:22 PM
[ in reply to If you were born and raised in India ] |
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This is evidence for the uniqueness of truth. If cricket was actually an intrinsically interesting game, it would have a cross cultural appeal. It does not. One finds more Cubs hats in Hong Kong than Assam hats. The Cubs have an appeal not explained by fandome for either baseball or cricket.
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Clemson Icon [27586]
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Re: If you were born and raised in India
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May 18, 2025, 11:20 PM
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Baseball doesn't transcend the planet. Let's use football though. It's generally an American unique sport. It's by far our biggest sport. It's popular because we were born here and grew up with it. Had you been born in India you would be cricket fan. Had you been born in Spain it would be soccer. Your Christian because you were born here generally speaking.
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Clemson Icon [27586]
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Re: If you were born and raised in India
May 18, 2025, 11:48 PM
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You're
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Clemson Icon [26181]
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Re: If you were born and raised in India
May 19, 2025, 12:07 AM
[ in reply to Re: If you were born and raised in India ] |
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The data says otherwise. The percentage of the population that are followers of Jesus is about the same here as anywhere, including places like Hong Kong. China is on track to soon become the most Christian nation on earth.
Self reported numbers like religious affiliation and church attendance vary widely. More objective data shows a flatter percentage from culture to culture.
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Clemson Icon [27586]
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Re: If you were born and raised in India
May 19, 2025, 12:13 AM
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You're post is ridiculous. China is 5% Christian. Just because the Chinese population as a whole is huge is meaningless. If will always be a small part of China. If you were born there there would have been a somewhat slim chance that you would be Christian. The only likely reasons you are Christian are because of where you were born and your parents possibly. That said, if you were born in Iran, you be praising Allah.
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Clemson Icon [26181]
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Re: If you were born and raised in India
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May 19, 2025, 12:22 AM
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My post is accurate. You don't know the relevant stats, but that's okay, no reason you should. Church attendance in the US is greater than in China, but objective data puts the numbers of followers of Jesus at about 5% in the US. It was 9% 15 or 20 years ago, and was declining.
You may think that a person in the US who says he is a Christian is the same as one in China who says he/she is. I assure you it is night and day. One is a religious affiliation with little correlation to spiritual condition, the other is not that.
This is not hypothetical or theoretical. This is data, and the experience of every missionary I know.
PS: if you look up self reported Christian identification - the 'official' numbers at wiki, etc - you will find double digit %. However, objective polling shows about 5%. Can discuss if you like. But that's what it is.
PPS (or is it PSS?): This difference between self reported church/religious affiliation and actual spiritual condition is very well known among missionaries, and was known before objective measures confirmed it. There are several evangelistic ministries in the US that target church goers specifically, the idea being that the number of pew sitters who are not followers of Jesus is about the same as in the population, and they are at least open to the subject.
The point: Cubs hats are found everywhere, regardless of childhood baseball exposure. Childhood exposure has, statistically, a minor influence on the number of Jesus followers in the population. Church attendance, yes, but that's it. And that is declining.
Message was edited by: CUintulsa®
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Orange Immortal [66006]
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Re: If you were born and raised in India
May 19, 2025, 12:57 PM
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I'm not saying that Christianity is not found in many foreign countries or that Christianity has not spread into many different cultures. I don't think that's the point. The point is, most people are largely products of their culture, including when it comes to religion. From Wikipedia:
Religion in India
Hinduism (79.8%)
Islam (14.2%)
Christianity (2.3%)
Sikhism (1.7%)
Buddhism (0.7%)
Animism/Adivasi (0.5%)
Jainism (0.4%)
No religion (0.2%)
If you are born in India, assuming you have no control over that, the numbers tell us that you have a very small chance of being Christian. It doesn't mean it is impossible, but that it's not very likely. I can't prove it, but I am pretty sure cultural influence is a huge factor, and that's something a person doesn't really control, or feel the need to control.
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National Champion [7287]
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Re: If you were born and raised in India
May 23, 2025, 9:43 PM
[ in reply to Re: If you were born and raised in India ] |
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God will bring His elect to Him. It is no harder for Him to save in Iran than it is to save in S. C.
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TigerNet Elite [72668]
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My son and I go to several games a year
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May 18, 2025, 7:34 PM
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I have more Cubs gear than Tigers if being honest. Last year my son and I went to 9 Cubs games and 3 Tigers games.
Part of it is just the flight or the train ride and the hotels. Me make a fun trip of it.
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Clemson Icon [27586]
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Re: My son and I go to several games a year
May 18, 2025, 11:20 PM
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They are playing well.
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