Replies: 46
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All-In [47750]
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Dems, Libs and (most importantly) Anti-Trumpers GITT
Jul 1, 2020, 10:47 AM
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Take Trump out of the equation for a minute.
Would you vote for Biden on his own? Are you worried about his gaffs and apparent onset of dementia? The fact he's holed up in his basement? The fact that he doesn't know if he's running for the Senate or the Presidency? Thinks 120M people have dies in the US from Covid? etc...
Do you think the DNC will pull him in favor of someone else?
Do you think he will make it a full term? If a far left veep is chosen can you support that (Harris/Warren/Abrams, etc)?
Just curious how the left stands outside of just hating Trump.
Sirriusly, no spin intended..
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Hall of Famer [22393]
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This election is a referendum on Trump's performance.
Jul 1, 2020, 10:52 AM
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That other stuff doesn't matter. This is a binary choice and people simply do NOT like Donald Trump or the job he is doing.
Biden is one of the most well-liked politicians in Washington.
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MVP [539]
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Re: This election is a referendum on Trump's performance.
Jul 1, 2020, 11:04 AM
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All-In [47750]
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Oculus Spirit [83625]
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and you got your answer***
Jul 1, 2020, 11:15 AM
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All-In [49054]
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I'm not sure that's possible...
Jul 1, 2020, 12:31 PM
[ in reply to My point was to take Trump out of the equation...*** ] |
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because we have a binary system. You choose one or the other. Do I think Joe is the best guy for the job out of all the democrats? No, probably not. But he's not running against air.
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Oculus Spirit [83625]
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Hall of Famer [22393]
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Trump's personality hasn't changed in the last 3 months.
Jul 2, 2020, 2:17 PM
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His performance, or lack thereof, during this deadly Covid pandemic has exposed his many managerial flaws that people ignored for so long. Now they not only can't stand his personality, they're seeing how his personality makes him so unable to do his job.
His performance has been deadly and it will only get worse. As George Will said, ..."the lesson of Trump's life: There is no such thing as rock bottom. So, assume that the worst is yet to come."
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All-In [34113]
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Re: Dems, Libs and (most importantly) Anti-Trumpers GITT
Jul 1, 2020, 11:00 AM
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Would you vote for Biden on his own?
Not a fan. Just voted against him in my state's primary.
Are you worried about his gaffs and apparent onset of dementia? The fact he's holed up in his basement? The fact that he doesn't know if he's running for the Senate or the Presidency? Thinks 120M people have dies in the US from Covid? etc...
Yes.
Do you think the DNC will pull him in favor of someone else?
Yes but only if he dies. Otherwise no.
Do you think he will make it a full term?
68% yes.
If a far left veep is chosen can you support that (Harris/Warren/Abrams, etc)?
Maybe. I'll look at the individual's record.
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MVP [539]
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Clemson prof Jorgensen has my vote
Jul 1, 2020, 11:00 AM
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Voting for the lesser of two evils and voting for someone because you just hate the other team has gotten us Hildawg/Trump and now Biden/Trump. Neither candidate is worth a vote. This country needs a 3rd or 4th party so badly. If you can't open your eyes and vote third party in this election, you really are just saying that you're okay with the status quo.
The fact is that these guys really aren't that different. Both don't have the brainpower or demeanor to be president. Both are creeps you wouldn't want your daughter in a room alone with. Both are for huge, militarized police forces (Joe so he can take guns away, Trump to put down "rioters". Neither agree with the statement, "I should be allowed to carry a gun to protect my weed while attending my gay friend's wedding." Both are for enforcing crimes that have no victim. Both play partisan games. Both are for forcing pastors to pay for abortions, both are for having troops overseas where they don't belong. Both are for raising the debt even higher.
It's time for common sense. It's time for freedom. Vote Jorgensen 2020
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cU4kK1TFym0
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All-In [47750]
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While I agree a 3rd party candidate would be great the
Jul 1, 2020, 11:06 AM
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reality is it is Trump or Biden. Voting otherwise is wasting a vote.
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MVP [539]
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Continuing to vote for the people who have
Jul 1, 2020, 11:09 AM
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ruined our country is a wasted vote.
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Rock Defender [53]
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Mathematically it’s still a wasted vote and
Jul 1, 2020, 12:15 PM
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MVP [539]
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Definitely not with that attitude
Jul 1, 2020, 12:28 PM
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This is a movement, though. Maybe Jorgensen won't win this election. She probably won't. But what if she gets over 10%? At the least it will make the other two parties take notice and actually listen and possibly change something, at most people take notice and take a third party seriously. Next time maybe it's 25%, or 30%.
Plus, at the end of the day I'm voting for the candidate who I believe would make the best president. That's what this is all supposed to be about. Its not about math, it's about or civic duty to elect our leader. Like I said, if everyone did that we wouldn't be in this mess.
I get voting for Biden bc you hate Trump. I just think it's important to at least consider voting for the best candidate and realizing that the only reason we think there are only two chances is because we have been conditioned to think that way.
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MVP [539]
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One other thing
Jul 1, 2020, 12:38 PM
[ in reply to Mathematically it’s still a wasted vote and ] |
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Not voting is way worse. No one ever talks about the roughly 60% of the population that could vote but doesn't. If a fraction of them voted for a third party candidate and they got a big chunk of the vote (say, 18% like Ross Perot), important people would have to take notice. Just saying.
If you look back, Ross Perot was right about more things than Bush or Clinton. That was the last time we had a 3rd person debating and on the screen with vote counts taken seriously on election night. It can happen again. It strikes fear in the hearts of the media and powerful people in Washington, which is just another reason to be for it.
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All-In [26968]
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All-In [42196]
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Re: Dems, Libs and (most importantly) Anti-Trumpers GITT
Jul 1, 2020, 11:04 AM
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Take Trump out of the equation for a minute.
That's what I'm hoping for.
Would you vote for Biden on his own?
No. And I likely won't vote for him anyway this November.
Are you worried about his gaffs and apparent onset of dementia?
Yes.
The fact he's holed up in his basement?
Not this. I think this is a strategy to just let Trump hang himself.
The fact that he doesn't know if he's running for the Senate or the Presidency? Thinks 120M people have dies in the US from Covid? etc...
Obviously he's not all there.
Do you think the DNC will pull him in favor of someone else?
No. He's surging over Trump. I think they'll be very hands-on with the VP choice.
Do you think he will make it a full term? If a far left veep is chosen can you support that (Harris/Warren/Abrams, etc)?
Four years? Probably. Eight years? I doubt it.
Just curious how the left stands outside of just hating Trump.
Not everyone who hates Trump is leftist. It's actually the sane thing--and technically, a conservative thing--to do.
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All-In [47750]
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Fair response.***
Jul 1, 2020, 11:09 AM
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110%er [7208]
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Re: Dems, Libs and (most importantly) Anti-Trumpers GITT
Jul 1, 2020, 11:07 AM
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I passionately hate Joe Biden and plan on voting for neither him nor Trump in November assuming my vote doesn't matter. I don't like him because he basically inherited a congressional seat and as far as I can tell does not believe in any specific policy. My dislike of him has nothing to do with his health or mental prowess. That seems like a weird thing to focus on considering who he's running against. I voted for Warren in the primary if it's any indication of where I stand in terms of policy views; pretty crazy how "liberal" I've become since voting for McCain. HTH.
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Oculus Spirit [97734]
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No. Yes. No. Yes. Yes. No. No. No.
Jul 1, 2020, 11:08 AM
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Think I got them all answered.
Next election I have no clue who I vote for. Dirty underwear or rotten fish. I dunno. Might write in Ronald Reagan or Donald DUCK.
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All-In [46825]
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Re: Dems, Libs and (most importantly) Anti-Trumpers GITT
Jul 1, 2020, 11:12 AM
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Take Trump out of the equation for a minute
--I wish Trump would do this for a few weeks. His poll numbers would go up
Would you vote for Biden on his own?
--I would vote for a clapping seal over Trump
Are you worried about his gaffs and apparent onset of dementia?
--No, he's always been a gaffe machine throwing word salads. This is nothing new. At least his words are just jumbled, not dripping with hate and trolling.
The fact he's holed up in his basement?
--It's a great strategy to be honest. Like Napoleon said: "Never interrupt your enemy when he's making a mistake"
Do you think the DNC will pull him in favor of someone else?
--No
Do you think he will make it a full term? If a far left veep is chosen can you support that (Harris/Warren/Abrams, etc)?
--Yes and yes
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CU Medallion [56105]
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I don't understand the first question.
Jul 1, 2020, 11:36 AM
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Would you vote for Biden on his own?
Like, without a running mate? That doesn't happen, so the hypothetical is irrelevant.
Are you worried about his gaffs and apparent onset of dementia?
His gaffes and age are his biggest weaknesses. That said, people are calling things gaffes which aren't actually gaffes.
The fact that he doesn't know if he's running for the Senate or the Presidency? Thinks 120M people have dies in the US from Covid?
Like that.
Do you think he will make it a full term?
No. At best he'll complete one term and not run for reelection.
If a far left veep is chosen can you support that (Harris/Warren/Abrams, etc)?
Yeah.
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CU Medallion [56105]
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Oh shirt I missed one.
Jul 1, 2020, 11:46 AM
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Do you think the DNC will pull him in favor of someone else?
No. I find this question funny, though. I only hear about this scenario from Republicans. It's not even a conversation anywhere else. They're often the same people who claim the DNC rigged the primary for Biden, so it doesn't make sense why the DNC would then replace him with someone else. Just wackadoodle conspiracy theorizing.
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All-TigerNet [11207]
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Re: Dems, Libs and (most importantly) Anti-Trumpers GITT
Jul 1, 2020, 11:42 AM
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Would you vote for Biden on his own?
Possibly. Four years ago I voted for Trump, 'cause I could not fathom an HRC administration...so if we remove him from the algorithm, who's smokin' joe running against? It's not likely he'd get my vote, but it's not inconceivable.
Gaffs and dementia worries?
Trump's got those, too, so we can send both to the old folks home if you like.
Basement?
Don't care, ultimately, it's better than trying to hold rallies during a fuggin' pandemic.
DNC?
They ain't pullin' the lead horse from the race no matter how lame he is.
Full term?
I can see four, not eight. If the dementia gets really bad, Joe possesses the humility to do the right thing, be it to get help, or to step down. Harris/Warren/Abrams are vastly better people than Trump, the world won't end if one of them becomes POTUS.
Now, can we get the Republican party back to conservatism after this election. Throw the Trump sycophants out, find some pre-2000 era Newt Gingrich(too bad he went to shid) type political thinkers. And were going to have to find them ourselves, because I think Richard Posner was right when he said, “I sense the intellectual deterioration of the once-vital conservative movement in the United States.”, and that was over a decade ago.
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Hall of Famer [20542]
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Re: Dems, Libs and (most importantly) Anti-Trumpers GITT
Jul 1, 2020, 12:07 PM
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I'm a registered Republican who has never voted Democratic - ever - in his life...but I will be emphatically voting for Biden...because you can't take Trump out of the equation.
The GOP needs to reform itself back into what it was - a party of fiscal responsibility, common sense, and above all else: integrity. The GOP used to be the salt of the Earth, good folks, kind of epitomized by the kinds of folks you saw around a Clemson tailgate. Under Trump the mentality has become bitter, small, angry, permissive of lawlessness, and tribally vicious towards anyone they perceive as not them. And the worst part: frightened. I've never seen people who call themselves Republicans be so small, petty, and scared before - about everything! - and it astounds me conservatives don't even seem to realize it's a reflection of the man we have leading the country.
Liberals and conservatives aren't supposed to be members of opposing teams. We're all supposed to be Americans together. Liberals are supposed to be the party of progress and ideas...and we conservatives, ultimately, were supposed to figure out how to actually implement those ideas in a manner in which it was actually fiscally possible to achieve since the Dems tend to lead with good intentions and leave the actual doing to the doers. Which historically was us.
But the GOP has completely morphed, and it needs to be punished. We need to see guys like Mitt Romney and John Kasich and Nikki Haley take the party over again...and boot the psychotic populist reactionary racist corporate enablers like Trump and his gang out...and if it takes four years of dealing with Biden, I'll be more than happy to do it at this point.
Am I a Biden fan? Hardly. I've stated on about ten different occasions he's an old-time business politician of no particular principle or ideology - or really, even an actual plan - and about the best thing going for him is that he's an all-right guy with a winning smile. But that's still a quantum improvement over the sociopathic narcisstic and con man we have looting this country to the walls right now. I do wonder if Biden makes it a full term and I'd feel a lot better with somebody like Val Deming than I would a Stacy Abrams or Elizabeth Warren, and Kamala Harris worries me some because I think she's probably going to end up as the pick and I regard her as pretty much a black female version of Biden. But at the end of the day it's not really about them so much as it is about taking the country out of Trump's dangerously inept and buffoonish hands before it craters so bad there's no putting it back together again.
Ultimately what I'd really like is an end to this binary nonsense, which gives us matchups like Trump v. Hillary and now Trump v. Biden, and forces us to choose between cyanide or hemlock in many elections. The easy solution there is ranked-choice voting, which allows multiple parties to run, and forces them to run for what they believe instead of just trying to obliterate the other team.
In the absence of that, my hope is that if the GOP gets its head handed to it in 2020, that will in turn force the party to do some soul-searching...and reject these populist reactionaries who have hijacked the party I once knew and hopefully rediscover itself as the party of common sense, fiscal responsibility, and the folks who say what they mean and mean what they say again. And hopefully by 2024 the GOP will have begun the process of purging itself of the Trumpists and we'll have some much better options on the menu again.
That's my hope.
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All-In [46825]
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Very well said
Jul 1, 2020, 12:11 PM
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I too have never voted for a democrat but will gladly do so this election.
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CU Medallion [56105]
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Gotta disagree with this...
Jul 1, 2020, 12:24 PM
[ in reply to Re: Dems, Libs and (most importantly) Anti-Trumpers GITT ] |
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We need to see guys like Mitt Romney and John Kasich and Nikki Haley take the party over again.
Nikki Haley may be popular amongst Republican voters, I don't know, but Kasich and Romney aren't. If Republican politicians want to win or stay in office, being moderate will lead to their defeat 9 times outta 10. It really is democracy in action. They're afraid of alienating their constituents, which is how it ought to be. The only way this would change is through redistricting and/or a tectonic cultural shift.
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110%er [7208]
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Re: Gotta disagree with this...
Jul 1, 2020, 12:33 PM
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I wonder how much of it has to do with their sweeping platform. I am thinking things like climate change or health care that the vast majority of the country agrees is a serious problem. Let's pretend that COVID and the related economic recovery are the salient issue in November; if Trump or any other republican candidate could focus on that and ditch everything else, how many people would switch their votes?
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Oculus Spirit [83129]
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Either Romney or Kasich would have beaten Hillary.
Jul 1, 2020, 2:07 PM
[ in reply to Gotta disagree with this... ] |
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Trump would have lost to Obama like Romney did.
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All-In [34113]
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Re: Dems, Libs and (most importantly) Anti-Trumpers GITT
Jul 1, 2020, 12:29 PM
[ in reply to Re: Dems, Libs and (most importantly) Anti-Trumpers GITT ] |
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Excellent essay and I agree with so much of that.
One issue bothers me: You said that if the GOP loses then it will have to do some soul-searching. Well, the last two times the GOP lost, it was Romney and McCain, two very reasonable choices. And when did the GOP win? Trump.
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Rock Defender [53]
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Re: Dems, Libs and (most importantly) Anti-Trumpers GITT
Jul 1, 2020, 12:34 PM
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All-In [34113]
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Re: Dems, Libs and (most importantly) Anti-Trumpers GITT
Jul 1, 2020, 1:01 PM
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I agree, and I think a big problem is the failure of the 2-party voting system. Primaries end up being all about who-can-beat-the-other-person. Quozzel mentioned alternative voting methods, liked ranked choices. Perhaps some states can start adopting different methods and we can experiment and see what works at the local level, then take that to the national elections.
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Rock Defender [53]
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Re: Dems, Libs and (most importantly) Anti-Trumpers GITT
Jul 1, 2020, 1:46 PM
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MVP [539]
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The problem is
Jul 1, 2020, 4:32 PM
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lately presidents have been making laws by fiat and then courts decide which are okay and which aren't. Congress is totally useless and it's up to Roberts to figure out our entire way of life basically. At least with a legit third party elected officials would make laws again, not 9 people who we have no way of holding accountable. Very little would change still, but that's not so bad. The only changes brought on by government in the past 30 years or so have been bad changes.
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Hall of Famer [20542]
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Re: Dems, Libs and (most importantly) Anti-Trumpers GITT
Jul 1, 2020, 2:00 PM
[ in reply to Re: Dems, Libs and (most importantly) Anti-Trumpers GITT ] |
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It's like dating the wrong girl. You have a dry spell, you're sitting there a bit bored, and along comes this chick with heavy eyeliner and loud red lipstick and combat boots and torn fishnets and you know you shouldn't but she's got a 'tude you can't knock down with a hammer, this predatory look, and Oh Man is she looking fine, and so...
...the next thing you know it's a month and a half later and you have no idea where the last six weeks went. You're hung over, you're broke, there's some obsessed caveman ex-boyfriend stalking you and making hangup calls, and the psychotic b!tch just keyed your car or slashed your tires, and you're just up to your eyeballs in melodrama and crazy you didn't have a month and a half ago.
All because you were bored and a bit lonely, and you said, hey why not, and you threw your better judgment out the window.
That's the GOP under Trump.
At some point you realize it's not the world or her family or her ex-boyfriend or all the friends who were trying to warn you, it's this chick bringing all that crazy with her. And you take a deep breath, and you walk away...and hopefully, you learn your lesson. (For awhile, anyhow!)
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Rock Defender [53]
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Re: Dems, Libs and (most importantly) Anti-Trumpers GITT
Jul 1, 2020, 2:05 PM
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Oculus Spirit [83129]
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Legend [18026]
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and to add to this argument:
Jul 1, 2020, 4:16 PM
[ in reply to Re: Dems, Libs and (most importantly) Anti-Trumpers GITT ] |
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The number of republicans in the House was 271 when Trump was inaugurated in 2017 but since then 115 have left or been replaced. Of their replacements there are two camps; 1.) democrats and 2.) Pro-Trump "republicans". So, where are the moderate "reasonable" republicans that the party can even draw from when/if Trump loses and they have to "soul search?"
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Oculus Spirit [83129]
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Answers to questions:
Jul 1, 2020, 12:12 PM
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1. Biden does worry me in that regard. So does Trump. I hope we have debates to see more clearly, or I may write someone in. Misspeaking and not really knowing are two different things as to the 120 million. 2. Of course not. The people have spoken. 3. If elected he will make a full term.
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Oculus Spirit [81925]
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Trump misspeaks and doesn't know more than I've seen
Jul 1, 2020, 1:43 PM
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Biden so far, but neither instill confidence. At least I haven't seen Biden overtly lie as much as Trump.
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All-In [38514]
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Aren't all choices based upon weighing the options?
Jul 1, 2020, 12:20 PM
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So if one option of two is removed then there is no longer a choice to make.
I voted for Kasich in the 2016 primary and Buttigieg in the 2020 primary, so I've already chosen neither.
But Trump's list of negatives is significantly longer than Biden's, or practically anyone else's.
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Rock Defender [53]
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Re: Aren't all choices based upon weighing the options?
Jul 1, 2020, 1:04 PM
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All-In [46825]
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Trump is a terrible person.
Jul 1, 2020, 1:10 PM
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The media is calling him a terrible person.
I must vote for him again.
Lulz
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Rock Defender [53]
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There's no hope for you ever being objective
Jul 1, 2020, 1:40 PM
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All-In [38514]
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All-In [34486]
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As others have mentioned,
Jul 1, 2020, 1:07 PM
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I live in South Carolina, and I'm not voting for Trump. My vote really doesn't matter.
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110%er [7208]
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You can help vote out Lindsey though.***
Jul 1, 2020, 4:57 PM
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Replies: 46
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