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Replies: 14
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Legend [18851]
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Carman and Hyatt
Oct 16, 2021, 12:41 PM
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Both were projected to be first rounders out of high school. If best is the standard then Offensive line coaching has failed to meet expectations. We are full of 4 stars now. We can watch other teams play Georgia, as an example, that has less talent fare better than we did. Just saying development, motivation or whatever is not showing on the field.
Hyatt and Carman both had times they looked lost and not capable. I feel that falls on coaching
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110%er [6692]
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Re: Carman and Hyatt
Oct 16, 2021, 1:24 PM
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Most first round OL weren't 5 star OL out of high school. OL is a different beast. I had some time, so here you go. The OL is tough to predict. Here are the last 2 drafts and 1st and 2nd rounders.
2021 draft of OL in order 1st and 2nd rounds
Penei Sewell 4 star
Rashawn Slater 3 star
Alijha Vea-Tucker 4 star
ALex Leatherwood 5 star
Christian Darrisaw 3 star
2nd round
Teven Jenkins 3 star
Liam Eichenberg 4 star
Walker Little 5 star
Jackson Carman 5 star
Aaron Banks 4 star
Sam Cosmi 3 star
Dillan Radunz 2 star
Josh Meyers 4 star
Creed Humphrey 4 star
Jalen Mayfield 4 star
Brady Christensen 2 star
2020 draft 1st round
Andrew Thomas 4 star
Jedrick Willis 4 star
Mekhi Becton 3 star
Tristan Wirfs 4 star
Austin Jackson 4 star
Isiah WIlson 4 star (out of the league after maybe 1 year)
2nd round..only 2 drafted
Robert Hunt 2 star
Ezra Cleveland 3 star
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Legend [18851]
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Re: Carman and Hyatt
Nov 17, 2022, 7:53 PM
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Most first round OL weren't 5 star OL out of high school. OL is a different beast. I had some time, so here you go. The OL is tough to predict. Here are the last 2 drafts and 1st and 2nd rounders.
2021 draft of OL in order 1st and 2nd rounds
Penei Sewell 4 star
Rashawn Slater 3 star
Alijha Vea-Tucker 4 star
ALex Leatherwood 5 star
Christian Darrisaw 3 star
2nd round
Teven Jenkins 3 star
Liam Eichenberg 4 star
Walker Little 5 star
Jackson Carman 5 star
Aaron Banks 4 star
Sam Cosmi 3 star
Dillan Radunz 2 star
Josh Meyers 4 star
Creed Humphrey 4 star
Jalen Mayfield 4 star
Brady Christensen 2 star
2020 draft 1st round
Andrew Thomas 4 star
Jedrick Willis 4 star
Mekhi Becton 3 star
Tristan Wirfs 4 star
Austin Jackson 4 star
Isiah WIlson 4 star (out of the league after maybe 1 year)
2nd round..only 2 drafted
Robert Hunt 2 star
Ezra Cleveland 3 star
Great research and points. Just frustrated because even in our best years the OL appears to be our biggest weakness. When "Best is the Standard" we fall way short and I cannot believe all of our current four stars are that overrated.
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Legend [16908]
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Re: Carman and Hyatt
Oct 16, 2021, 8:38 PM
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It’s called bias. You’re a Clemson fan so you are watching Clemson’s performance and doing so critically but also with bias. When our defense penetrates the opposing line we credit our players athleticism and our coordinators schemes. When they do it - our o-line just sucks. If you watch enough college football you’ll realize that college o-lines are terrible. There are not nearly enough capable linemen coming out of high school to staff the P5 much less the FCS. And those 100+ programs can’t produce enough linemen to keep 32 NFL teams well staffed. Somebody has to be first and somebody last but the PFF grading of OL is hardly competitive between the top and bottom.
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All-TigerNet [10912]
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Re: Carman and Hyatt
Oct 16, 2021, 1:44 PM
[ in reply to Re: Carman and Hyatt ] |
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I agree that the OL is tough to recruit. I looked at the last few Super Bowl teams 2 or 3 years back when TNet was screaming about why Clemson wasn't getting high rated OL. Other than having a 5 or 4 star lineman sprinkled in, the overwhelming majority were 2 and 3 stars out of high school. Find the meanest, nastiest, and athletic OL out there and see what shakes out.
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110%er [6692]
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Re: Carman and Hyatt
Oct 16, 2021, 1:46 PM
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Exactly, and some of those OT's were TE's out of high school or went to schools that weren't as elite because they were 6 ft 6 and 250 lbs out of HS.
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Orange Blooded [3051]
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Re: Carman and Hyatt
Oct 16, 2021, 1:51 PM
[ in reply to Re: Carman and Hyatt ] |
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Those making predictions might just be as bad at their job as Caldwell
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110%er [7131]
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Re: Carman and Hyatt
Oct 16, 2021, 2:33 PM
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Mitch Hyatt was spectacularly successful as a college OT.
While its great when one of our OL's makes it in the pros, the measure of good recruiting for COLLEGE is how well the players perform in COLLEGE.
Mitch Hyatt was a starter from Day 1 as a Freshman (due to 'whatever happened to / whatever got smoked by' expected starter Isiah Battle. It could be argued that M.Hyatt (as a player on offense) was more important to Clemson's CUMULATIVE success on offense than either Deshaun Watson or T.Lawrence. How so? M.Hyatt played brilliantly as a COLLEGE LT and protected the blind side of both D.Watson's 2016 Natty and the blind side of T.Lawrence's 2018 Natty.
J.Carman ... had the benefit of (compared to M.Hyatt) being eased into the LT position. But J.Carman is a special athlete for such a large man, and while not being the super-athletic monster that is needed for a NFL first round LT, he is getting a NFL paycheck as a NFL guard.
Coaching (yes, Caldwell's coaching) was very good with both Hyatt and Carman ... and has been very effective with J.McFadden (3* HS player and now a good starting COLLEGE LT) and with M.Tate (improving every week as a true freshman guard) and with W.Parks (a very credible RT as a true sophomore).
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Legend [18851]
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Re: Carman and Hyatt
Oct 16, 2021, 6:51 PM
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Thanks coach Caldwell sorry for the criticism. Although against actual good teams both those players often struggled heavily at times.
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110%er [7179]
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Re: Carman and Hyatt
Oct 16, 2021, 8:12 PM
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I can go with the NFL translation not being a good measure of how well an OL is playing in college ball. However, there is something to the fact we aren't really producing guys the NFL want to take long looks at. Cervenka got some looks and I think will be a regular starter one day. I think he is on a practice squad now.
At any rate, for COLLEGE get 5 guys who are more physical, athletic, bigger and dominant than most other teams! Check - see Alabama and LSU and currently Georgia! It doesn't matter what those guys do beyond college; how much do they dominate in COLLEGE is the question.
I think that's what a lot of Tigers fans frustration is with the OL. If we aren't going to develop them into great OL; then get them right out the box ready to be good COLLEGE OL. Maybe just add some strength/stamina to them for what we need. It will work in college!
It also makes your DL a lot tougher going against dominant COLLEGE OL in camp and practice.
I get what you are saying and mostly agree!
My wish for the Tigers football program is that we never drop the, "Clemson Made" mantra. But, perhaps pursue more of the "out the box" ready OL. Because we aren't developing them much further in terms of ability once they step on campus it seems. Our needs have been rather simple on offense. Just be in shape as we wear the defense down not by dominant OL play; but by tempo! Tempo BTW which is missing and thus causing the light to shine on the Tigers offense as a whole; but particularly the OL. John Simpson was excellent and in the league with the rest of the Clemson Raiders.
My wish is just that this area picks up a ton and that we start focusing on controlling the line of scrimmage.
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110%er [7179]
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OL & line of scrimmage: 5 in a row!
Oct 16, 2021, 8:18 PM
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During the dirt peckers little 5 year run over the good guys; the biggest difference was the line of scrimmage.
Remember, we were a high scoring offense. But, play those jokers under Spurrier and the emphasis he had put on the L.O.S was evident. All the "fun n gun" stuff wasn't what made Spurrier who he was; during his most successful years at UF they lead the SEC in rushing. Why, because he controlled the l.o.S. Teams couldn't afford to load the box and when they did he had his carousel of QB's just "187" teams! Safety in the box and he would run up the score on you. No safety and they had the ability to gash you.
Right now, we are having issues rushing the football against "non-loaded boxes"! That's crazy! And speaks to coaching and perhaps recruiting deficit i.m.o.
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Orange Blooded [2862]
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Re: OL & line of scrimmage: 5 in a row!
Oct 16, 2021, 8:38 PM
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True. Spurlid was able to keep the ball away from our offense using his more physical OL
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Rock Defender [53]
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Re: Carman and Hyatt
Oct 16, 2021, 8:45 PM
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Who had played UGA better than us?
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Standout [305]
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Re: Carman and Hyatt
Oct 16, 2021, 9:12 PM
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Parks was made out to be a top 50 recruit and he sinks. We may as well put a TE at RG.
Out guys are slow and not strong.
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Legend [16908]
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Re: Carman and Hyatt
Oct 16, 2021, 9:21 PM
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A nice lean 40ish posts a year with a 34% pulse. Something else stinks.
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Replies: 14
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