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Orange Blooded [2281]
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A jewish Rabbi on Psalm 22 and the christian bible
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Mar 26, 2023, 11:25 AM
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"Bear in mind, the Jewish Scriptures were written in Hebrew, not in seventeenth century King James English. What has made Christian believers so vulnerable to Bible tampering is that almost none of them can read or understand the Hebrew Bible in its original language. Virtually no Christian child in the world is taught the Hebrew language as part of a formal Christian education. As you and countless other Christians earnestly study the Authorized Version of the Bible, there is a blinding yet prevailing assumption that what you are reading is Heaven-breathed. Tragically, virtually every Christian in the world reads the translation of men rather than the Word of God. On the other hand, every Jewish child in the world who is enrolled in a Jewish school is taught to read and write Hebrew long before he or she even heard the name of Luther.
Unbeknownst to you and parishioners worldwide, the King James Version and numerous other Christian Bible translations were meticulously shaped and painstakingly retrofitted in order to produce a message that would sustain and advance Church theology and exegesis. This aggressive rewriting of biblical texts has had a devas- tating impact on Christians throughout the world who unhesitatingly embrace these corrupt translations. As a result, Christians earnestly wonder, just as you have, why the Jews, who are the bearers and protectors of the divine oracles of God, have not willingly accepted Jesus as their messiah."
https://outreachjudaism.org/crucifixion-psalm/ A Closer Look at the “Crucifixion Psalm” - Outreach Judaism Question: Dear Rabbi Singer, I am a Lutheran living in Switzerland and have been reading your web page with interest. I admire your commitment to your faith, yet I am perplexed as to why you so assuredly reject Jesus Christ as your messiah. He came not only for the gentiles, but for the Jews as
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Legend [18118]
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Re: Jews for Jesus have something to say too
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Mar 26, 2023, 7:04 PM
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Another good article! You guys are tearing it up today. I was glad to see this author take on the same linguistic issue as the other author.
"And the Hebrew words for “they have pierced” (kaaru) and “like a lion” (kaari) differ by one letter, both similar to the other, so that a scribe could easily have made a mistake in copying the passage."
This author ascribes kaaru to be a real word and the other author says it is a gibberish word. Now we need a credible tie-breaker to find out which is which!
This author has a different goal, to show the similarities between Psalm 22 and the Crucifixion, which he does pretty well. I don't think it would surprise anyone at all that Jesus, as a Jew, would know Psalm 22 upside-down and backwards. Or that he would quote the first and last lines of it during his ordeal. It is known as a lament Psalm, and Jesus was surely lamenting.
This author wasn't overly defending Psalm 22:16 so I can't really critique him on that front. He sort of soft-pedaled it and left it open to multiple possibilities. Which is fine. It's the way I think actually. But I would have liked this author to have addressed issues like why is Jesus, who is God, crying out to God?
He did give this answer: "...he was momentarily abandoned by God, who cannot look on sin." But if the author believes Jesus is God that hardly answers the question. And I don't know of any scripture that says God can't look on sin. God confronted Adam and Eve face-to-face, presumably. So I don't know where "can't look at sin" comes from.
Anyhow, that wasn't his focus so I'll leave that one be, but the real question to me is this:
Since David's lament in Psalm 22 was written before Jesus, was any of it prophetic? He kind of gives a half answer, which I think is ok again because I kind of see it as a half answer too.
"Either this was a direct prophetic inspiration on the part of David, or if he was referring in an exaggerated way to his own sufferings, his words went far beyond his own situation to be fulfilled in a very literal and exact way in the events surrounding Jesus’ crucifixion."
That’s kind of a strange sentence. "Either it was A, or if it was B it led to C." I think I agree with part of that. Maybe? I will say that I think David was talking about himself. There's a whole string of Psalms, and they are out of order so I can't remember all the numbers, that tell David's story and all his troubles with Saul, etc. Many of them are even titled as such, like:
Psalm 3: When he fled from his son Absalom.
Psalm 18: When he sang to the Lord the words of this song when the Lord delivered him from the hand of all his enemies and from the hand of Saul.
Psalm 34: When he pretended to be insane before Abimelek, who drove him away, and he left.
So at a minimum, I can see Psalm 22 being about David. For it to ONLY be about Jesus would make it completely out of place. But was partially about Jesus? I’ll hedge with the author. For prophetic things, I look for details that are specific or unique. “The weather will change tomorrow” is not much of a prophecy to me. But “It will rain for 5 minutes at 6:08pm tomorrow” would be a heck of a prediction.
So what in Psalm 22 stands out as specific or unique? Not much to me. As I read it I see a king, probably David, in distress. I can read from verse 1 to verse 31 and see David speaking every word. The only things to me that stand out as really distinctive are verse 16, which was addressed in the other article, and verse 18, about casting lots for clothes. But I can also imagine casting lots to be pretty common. If it’s not David talking, it could be any other king. But if it's Jesus talking, why is he begging God for help again? In the context of the other 73 Psalms about David, 22 fits pretty well in that mix.
So like the author I’ll hedge. Sure it could be about Jesus, or even be spoken by Jesus, ultimately I have no idea. But I’d need more or better evidence for me to lean on it for such. But that's just me. It was a good article and I enjoyed reading it.
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Oculus Spirit [94584]
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Well shoot, it's no wonder I don't search the internet...
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Mar 26, 2023, 11:27 PM
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for understanding about the Bible. I disagree with both of them. Categorically I disagree with the author in the OP. I have issues with the other one too. I'll explain toward the end of this post.
I don't care what the Hebrew writings say. I go on the KJ Bible because if some scribe made a mistake God straightened it out when the KJ scholars translated it being that they had to agree on every word and italicized words which were inserted to clarify context and meaning. I often read passages and leave out omit the italicized words to see if, and how much the meaning is changed.
This author wasn't overly defending Psalm 22:16 so I can't really critique him on that front. He sort of soft-pedaled it and left it open to multiple possibilities. Which is fine. It's the way I think actually. But I would have liked this author to have addressed issues like why is Jesus, who is God, crying out to God?
God's Spirit had to separate from the Jesus' body to enable Him to die. God was with Him during the suffering but pulled back at His death. The wages of sin is death. It had to be.
God did not turn His face away from Jesus and God heard his cries and pleas to be near. That's right there in the words of Christ:
"24 For he hath not despised nor abhorred the affliction of the afflicted; neither hath he hid his face from him; but when he cried unto him, he heard."
Since David's lament in Psalm 22 was written before Jesus, was any of it prophetic? He kind of gives a half answer, which I think is ok again because I kind of see it as a half answer too.
It's all prophetic to me. From the laments of the first half to the prophesies of a seed being counted as a generation to God (meaning seed of Abraham) becoming preachers during the tribulation and declaring God had sacrificed His Son, Jesus, who had died on the cross to save the people who would be born then. The people who would be born is most likely be a spiritual rebirth as, born again,' during the tribulation. Since the tribulation is the completion of another suffering of Israel and only 7 years it's hard for me to believe it's talking about kids being born during those 7 years.
So at a minimum, I can see Psalm 22 being about David. For it to ONLY be about Jesus would make it completely out of place. But was partially about Jesus? I’ll hedge with the author. For prophetic things, I look for details that are specific or unique. “The weather will change tomorrow” is not much of a prophecy to me. But “It will rain for 5 minutes at 6:08pm tomorrow” would be a heck of a prediction.
22 is just after 21 where David rejoices for his relationship with God including eternal life. 22 is exactly before 23. If they said David wrote 22 in the morning I could see him writing 23 before bed. I
Since you depend on history being suitable to prove or disprove the Bible I wouldn't expect you to have high regard for Bible prophesies. I am a bit surprised that you don't regard David as a prophet though. Some teachings about the OT prophets omit David yet the vast majority of Christians including scholars regard 22 as a prophesy. David got stuck in the poetry section.
Jonah preached one message and had his own book with his name on it. His prophesy didn't fulfill to suit him and he pitched a fit and never got right with God. Even the prayers he prayed were near verbatim to Psalms so it's pretty clear he was a student.
Jesus is my high priest. I don't play games with Him. If I want to know something, whether or not I need to know, I ask. I've asked all of the questions presented here. I have trouble explaining my understandings because I'm an ignorant redneck.
Sometimes God takes His time. I've asked hard questions I never heard before and God took ~30 years to answer one of them. I've matured a lot and don't hound Him much anymore. I kinda feel guilty when I do. I consider it reminding His that I trust Him for what I ask.
Most of my request are 'What does that mean to You?' I'm amazed He honors me and responds. Why ask the children when The Father is always with you? You ask a child and end up with a child's answer.
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All-In [30254]
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Re: Well shoot, it's no wonder I don't search the internet...
Mar 27, 2023, 12:18 AM
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>I have trouble explaining my understandings because I'm an ignorant redneck.
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All-In [30254]
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Re: Well shoot, it's no wonder I don't search the internet...
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Mar 27, 2023, 12:52 AM
[ in reply to Well shoot, it's no wonder I don't search the internet... ] |
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>God's Spirit had to separate from the Jesus' body to enable Him to die. God was with Him during the suffering but pulled back at His death.
Sure, I can buy that. That's consistent with the Trinity concept. And consistent with Jesus having a physical body that died after it separated from his spiritual aspect in the Trinity.
But my question is, during the suffering itself, while God/Jesus/Holy Ghost are all still in the physical body of Jesus, why is Jesus asking, "Why has thou forsaken me?"
Or one could parse it even finer and say "Well, Only the Jesus 1/3 of the Trinity was in Jesus's physical body at the time of the suffering, and the other 2/3 were not." But no matter how you slice it, it seems, you still have a divine Jesus asking a question he should know the answer to, before his body died, if he is a part of the Trinity.
That's the kind of thing that gnaws me. And in my mind it's independent of whether God exists or not. It seems to be the wrong 'description' of God. It's entirely possible that God exists and the Trinity is not the right description. Like saying the Earth is the center of the universe. The earth exists, and the universe exists, but the description of the earth being in the 'center' is wrong. These are the things that drive me bonkers.
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Oculus Spirit [94584]
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I don't know exactly when The Holy Spirit departed.
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Mar 27, 2023, 2:41 PM
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Jesus had to suffer death. I don't think it's reasonable to assume that Jesus asked God 'Why have You abandoned me if God's Spirit had not departed. I'm not sure I understand how that worked but I think understand why it had to be.
The death of Jesus facilitated man being saved and cleaned sufficiently such that God's Spirit could inhabit. 'Know ye not that you are the temples of God?' Jesus was sinless and the perfect lamb to sacrifice for sin. He had to take on the sin of man which may be akin to a reverse process of me getting saved.
I've heard and read that Jesus became sin. I'm not sure about that but I'm sure that His sacrifice made me acceptable to God, for His innocent blood was powerful enough to clean even the sin of the multitude. That's a lot of sin, btw.
In a nutshell, anyone who understand what being saved means can thereby have a reference for Jesus being lost. I'm sorry that the concept may be exclusively understood by those who are born again; for if the lost soul could comprehend perhaps their understanding would reveal to them the absolute necessity of turning their heart toward Jesus and allowing Him to redeem them.
I don't allow for idle speculations on the concept of God. I don't have to anymore. I know Him a lot better than I knew my own father and I'd venture to say better than anyone knows their earthly father. I believe most matured Christians would agree. That is not to claim or certainly not to believe that I know much about Him.
God is three, Father, Son and Holy Ghost. They have different functions and different thrones. You comprehend that God sits on the Throne of power working now to put all things under the foot of His Son Who sits at His Right Hand and His Spirit dwells within me and any who call on the name of Jesus and receive Him as their Savior. That's all we need to know right now.
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All-In [30254]
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Re: I don't know exactly when The Holy Spirit departed.
Mar 27, 2023, 2:52 PM
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>I don't think it's reasonable to assume that Jesus asked God 'Why have You abandoned me if God's Spirit had not departed.
Yeah, I can see that. I'd agree.
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Oculus Spirit [94584]
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Another note on David being a prophet:
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Mar 27, 2023, 3:17 PM
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"1 (A Psalm of David.) The LORD said unto my Lord, Sit thou at my right hand, until I make thine enemies thy footstool.
2 The LORD shall send the rod of thy strength out of Zion: rule thou in the midst of thine enemies.
3 Thy people shall be willing in the day of thy power, in the beauties of holiness from the womb of the morning: thou hast the dew of thy youth.
4 The LORD hath sworn, and will not repent, Thou art a priest for ever after the order of Melchizedek.
5 The Lord at thy right hand shall strike through kings in the day of his wrath.
6 He shall judge among the heathen, he shall fill the places with the dead bodies; he shall wound the heads over many countries.
7 He shall drink of the brook in the way: therefore shall he lift up the head."
Of course I see the prophet here writing about the coming of the conquering Messiah but of course I also view the conquering Messiah as being a spiritual Savior and one Who rules this world. If not prophetic then what? Gimme something here.
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All-In [30254]
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Re: Another note on David being a prophet:
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Mar 27, 2023, 4:07 PM
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Making prophecy is the easy part. It's determining if they've been fulfilled or not that's always the rub for so many people.  ">
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Oculus Spirit [94584]
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Jesus closed the gap between man and God on His...
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Mar 27, 2023, 5:13 PM
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first lap. During His second coming He will finish the race. God made a ton of promises in the OT. Some of them have not come to pass, yet.
Say you catch pneumonia and the doctor gives you an antibiotic. You must know that it's not a magic wand but will take time for you to get well again. It's always happened with everyone you know who had pneumonia and got to the doctors before it had gone too far. That trust you have in the antibiotic is almost as sure as the trust I have in God.
I know Him.
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All-In [30254]
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Re: Well shoot, it's no wonder I don't search the internet...
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Mar 27, 2023, 1:10 AM
[ in reply to Well shoot, it's no wonder I don't search the internet... ] |
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>Since you depend on history being suitable to prove or disprove the Bible
Well, kinda. I'm really more taking a survey of every person I can find to see what they think, including people on this board.
So I'm interested in how David saw God, to see if that will give me some insight into how I might do the same. And I'm also interested in how Mohummad saw God. And Brigham Young. I'm even interested in how 88 sees God, for the same reason. ">">">
I mean I guess you could say it's a search for proof, but it's a search for proof by way of the insights of others, using history as the tool. Insights that I might not have. The dates and places are largely irrelevant, But the people, and what they thought, that's what it's all about for me.
That's why I actually like it when we, plural, as the board, disagree. Agreeing doesn't get me anywhere. We could sit around all day nodding our heads and agreeing but that doesn't help me believe. But when we disagree, I have new insights to consider. And one of those insights, somewhere, sometime, might be the one that flips the switch.
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Oculus Spirit [94584]
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The Holy Ghost flips the switch.
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Mar 27, 2023, 2:42 PM
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All you have to do is be willing to see that they light's on.
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All-In [30254]
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Re: The Holy Ghost flips the switch.
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Mar 27, 2023, 3:17 PM
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It's a simple as asking a cat to learn algebra. ">
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Orange Blooded [2281]
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Oculus Spirit [94584]
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You are fully aware that my intent was that...
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Mar 27, 2023, 2:48 PM
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I don't care what practicing Jews today have to say about scripture. You've become quite skilled at twisting words phrases to insult and accuse those trying to explain what we believe and why we believe it. You are a cantankerous imp who thrives on conflict and contention. Yeah, one of you guys should tell Crump® and B-Meist® about my personal opinion of TBD.
Tell them I considered calling you a spiritual urchin too.
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Orange Blooded [2281]
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Re: You are fully aware that my intent was that...
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Mar 27, 2023, 3:52 PM
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What in the world are you talking about twisting words? I quoted exactly what you said and said wow in response.
Like wow, I can't believe you would discount the Hebrew manuscripts in favor of a translation that didn't come out until 1611, a couples thousand years after the events they describe.
That is a legitimate discussion point, not an attack.
You and CUintulsa® are the only ones that seem to have a problem with me. I have plenty of healthy, respectful discussion with several other posters on this forum that do not get defensive and can actually have a conversation.
You are welcome to ignore me.
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Oculus Spirit [94584]
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Oh you misunderstood my intent.
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Mar 27, 2023, 5:38 PM
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When I said 'Hebrew writings,' it was in reference to the articles you posted which just happen to be the context of our current discussion.
I don't read Hebrew and don't need to. I am satisfied with what I have because I know God personally and trust that my Bible satisfies everything He wants me to know.
BTW; I'm ignoring whitespace rules and posting a C&P just as presented on the following website. I will not certify this as valid information because I DON'T CARE WHAT ANYONE SAYS ABOUT THE BIBLE.
https://safeguardyoursoul.com/the-translators-of-the-king-james-bible/
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The Translators of the King James Bible Brief Summary
54 Godly men were selected to translate the King James Bible, so they first set aside 3 years of fasting, prayer, seeking God and research BEFORE beginning their translation work!
At the Hampton Court Conference, convened by King James I in 1603, John Reynolds, the head of the Puritan Church in England, proposed a new English translation of the Scriptures that would unite the churches and the people of England. Reynold’s goal was one universal authority or standard for all English-speaking Christians. There was division and strife between the churches and the people over the two primary English translations of the time the Bishops’ Bible and the Geneva translation. The Bishops’ Bible, published in 1568 by leaders in the Church of England by the authority of Queen Elizabeth, was the official Bible for usage in the churches. The Geneva Bible, produced in 1560 by exiled Protestant leaders in Geneva, Switzerland, had been adopted and embraced as the beloved Bible of the common people. Although both translations were made from the same textual foundation the Textus Receptus Greek and the Masoretic Text of the Hebrew in many places the English renderings differed, resulting in strife and confusion between pulpit and pew. King James received Reynold’s proposal gladly, and was anxious for work on a new English Bible translation to begin.
A list of the names of fifty-four men was forwarded to the king, who approved the proposed list of translators submitted by the Dean of Westminster and the Regius Professor of Hebrew at Oxford and Cambridge Universities.
The next three years were set aside by the select group of translators for time in private research, prayer, fasting and preparation for the task that lay ahead. The King James translation team was comprised of fifty-four godly men, and arguably the most scholarly men ever assembled for any similar endeavor.
The company met together in 1607 to commence work on the translation and divided themselves into six committees: two met at Oxford, two at Cambridge, and two at Westminster Abbey. The whole of the Bible was distributed in six portions among the various committees: John Reynolds and Miles Smith chaired the committee responsible for the Books of Isaiah through Malachi; Bishop George Abbott oversaw the committee working on the Gospels, Acts and the Book of Revelation; Edward Lively headed the committee which translated I Chronicles through the Song of Solomon;
John Bois’ company worked on the translation of the Apocryphal books; Genesis through II Kings were assigned to Lancelot Andrewes and his group; and the New Testament Epistles were translated by a committee led by Dr. William Bedwell.
The conditions for translation work for a project of the magnitude of the entire English Bible were ideal in the early seventeenth century in England. The translators operated with the blessing and the financial aid of the king himself. All of the scholarship and resources of Cambridge University, Oxford University and Westminster Abbey were at the translators’ disposal. An invitation was extended to “all principal learned men of the kingdom” to participate as consultants or advisors. Historians concur that during this era the English language had “ripened to its full perfection” (from Alexander McClure’s The Translators Revived). McClure also stated that “the study of Greek, and of the oriental languages, and of rabbinical lore, had been carried to a greater extent in England than ever before or since.” The character and credentials of the translators were impeccable. Lancelot Andrewes, while a young student at Cambridge, learned a new language each year during Easter break. After several years, he had mastered most of the languages of Europe. Andrewes spoke Latin, Greek, Hebrew, Chaldee, Syriac, Arabic and at least fifteen other languages. It was said of him that he could have been “interpreter general” at the Tower of Babel! He was also reputed to have spent an average of five hours each day in prayer. Among the Christians of his day he was known as “the star of preachers.” It was said that “those who stole his sermons could never steal his preaching.” Andrewes had the privilege of being selected, from among all the preachers in the land, to deliver the annual Christmas Day sermon for the royal family, beginning with Queen Elizabeth and continuing for many years during the reign of King James.
William Bedwell produced translations of the Scriptures into Hebrew, Syriac, Chaldee and Arabic. He produced a Persian dictionary and a three-volume Arabic lexicon. He was a master of the Semitic languages, which shed much light on Hebrew words and phrases, most importantly those Hebrew words and phrases that found their way into the Greek language of the New Testament.
John Bois read through the Hebrew Bible by age five, and by age six was writing Hebrew legibly. He was often found studying Greek at the Cambridge library from four a.m. until 8 p.m. (sixteen hours a day!). Bois tutored many of his fellow students at the University in Greek, and his class was also attended by many of his Greek professors! John Bois served as pastor of St. John’s Church before, during, and after his work as Bible translator. He preached without notes, but not without much prayer and study. He had the entire Greek New Testament committed to memory. He practiced fasting twice a week, and often gave to help the poor until he had no more to give himself. Among Bois’ writings was a commentary in Latin on the Gospels and Acts. Even after his retirement, he spent eight hours a day in study, mostly reading and correcting the ancient authors.
Dr. Miles Smith was known as “a walking library.” He was called by his contemporaries “an incomparable theologist.” He had studied all of the writings of the Latin and Greek church fathers, and was as well versed in Arabic, Chaldee and Syriac as he was in English. It was said of Smith that he “had Hebrew at his fingers’ ends.” He was chosen by the other translators to write the Preface to the King James Bible, The Translators to the Reader. Concerning his fellow translators, he wrote: “There were many chosen who were greater in other men’s eyes than their own, and who sought the truth rather than their own praise.” Miles Smith served as the final editor on the King James translation, perusing the entire text of the Bible before it went to press in 1611.
At age 23, John Reynolds was made a Greek lecturer at Corpus Christi College. He gave himself to the study of the Scriptures in the original languages, and was an “able and successful preacher of God’s Word.” He had read all the Greek and Latin fathers, and all the records of the ancient church. He was known as “a living library” and “a third university” (Oxford, Cambridge, and John Reynolds!). These are a few observations of Reynolds contemporaries: “As to virtue, integrity, piety, and sanctity of life, he was so eminent and conspicuous, that to name Reynolds is to commend virtue itself.” “He alone was a well-furnished library, full of all faculties, all studies, and all learning. The memory and reading of that man were near to a miracle.” “He was most excellent in all tongues useful or ornamental to a divine. He was so well skilled in all arts and sciences, as if he had spent his whole life in each of them.”
Of the fifty-four translators, four were college presidents, six were bishops, five were deans, thirty held PhD’s, thirty-nine held Masters degrees, there were forty-one university professors, thirteen were masters of the Hebrew language, and ten had mastered Greek. Every man involved in the King James Bible translation believed in the verbal inspiration of the Scriptures, all believed in the deity of our Lord Jesus Christ, and all were men of prayer. Many were not only Biblical scholars and master linguists, but also God-called, Spirit-filled preachers. Yet the translators considered themselves “poor instruments to make God s holy truth to be yet more and more known unto the people.”
A look at some of the statements of the translators themselves reveals the depth of their convictions concerning the eternal Word of God. They spoke of the Scriptures as “that inestimable treasure which excelleth all the riches of the earth.” They acknowledged the Bible as being “so full and so perfect,” “a fountain of most pure water, springing up into everlasting life.” They believed “the original (Scriptures were) from heaven, not earth; the author being God, not men; the penmen, such as were sanctified from the womb and endued with a principal portion of God’s Spirit.” They referred to the Bible as “God’s Word,” “God s Truth,” “God’s testimony,” “the Word of salvation.” Study of the Scriptures brought “light of understanding, stableness of persuasion, repentance from dead works, newness of life, holiness, peace, joy in the Holy Ghost, fellowship with the saints, participation of the heavenly nature, fruition of an inheritance immortal, undefiled, and that shall never fade away.” From the translators Epistle Dedicatory, the dedication letter of their Bible translation to King James I:
“Among all our joys, there was not one that more filled our hearts, than the blessed continuance of the preaching of God s sacred Word among us.”
Some closing comments from The Translators to the Reader: Gentle Reader, we commend thee to God, and to the Spirit of His grace. He removeth the scales from our eyes, the veil from our hearts, opening our wits that we may understand His Word, enlarging our hearts, yea correcting our affections, that we may love it above gold and silver, yea that we may love it to the end. Ye are brought unto fountains of living water which ye digged not. Others have labored, and you may enter into their labors; O receive not so great things in vain, O despise not so great salvation! It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God; but a blessed thing it is, and will bring us to everlasting blsessedness in the end, when God speaketh unto us, to hearken; when He setteth His Word before us, to read it; when He stretcheth out His hand and calleth, to answer, Here am I, here we are to do thy will O God.”
In the final analysis, the translators of the King James Bible believed that what they had spent nearly seven years of their lives producing was an “exact translation of the holy Scriptures into the English tongue.”
By Bill Bradley, Professor of Bible and History
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I apologize to other older readers for the horrible lack of whitespace.
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All-In [30254]
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Re: Oh you misunderstood my intent.
Mar 27, 2023, 10:50 PM
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Nice article! That was some serious, serious academic and spriritual firepower in that translation. I'd love to find specifically how they reconciled the Bishop's and Geneva Bibles. Great find, and now I want more! ">
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Orange Blooded [2281]
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Re: Oh you misunderstood my intent.
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Mar 28, 2023, 8:20 AM
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The credentials listed for the translators made me laugh.
One guy "prayed 5 hours a day".
Another could "read hebrew and write hebrew by the time he was 5".
And yet another spent 12 hours a day in the library studying greek.
I'm gonna go out on a limb here and guess these guys didn't didn't get laid much.
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All-In [30254]
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Re: Oh you misunderstood my intent.
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Mar 28, 2023, 8:50 AM
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>The credentials listed for the translators made me laugh.
Well, how many times in one's life does one get to translate a Bible? It's not like anyone could say "Sure, I did 20 translations just last week."
But yeah, probably not much action going on with that bunch. But sometimes the quiet ones will fool you.
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Orange Blooded [2281]
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Re: Oh you misunderstood my intent.
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Mar 28, 2023, 9:01 AM
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I really didn't see anything about the actual translating of the text and why it was supposedly better than the other translations.
The argument here seems to be that these were godly men who let god speak to them...
I know I've read in the past that they believe the Textus Receptus was more trustworthy than other manuscripts.
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All-In [30254]
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Re: Oh you misunderstood my intent.
Mar 28, 2023, 11:19 AM
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>I know I've read in the past that they believe the Textus Receptus was more trustworthy than other manuscripts.
Yeah, I think that was the go-to source in the old days. The other one is the Novum Testamentum Graece (The New Testament in Greek). Apparently there are some differences but I couldn't tell you what they are off the top of my head.
>The argument here seems to be that these were godly men who let god speak to them...
If I were a Christian I'd certainly want godly men doing my translation rather than a bunch of agnostics. Those guys are pretty shady ">
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Orange Blooded [2281]
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Re: Oh you misunderstood my intent.
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Mar 28, 2023, 12:03 PM
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How do you determine who is godly or not?
The Pharisees were godly in their own mind.
ClemsonTiger1988®?
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Oculus Spirit [94584]
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Re: Oh you misunderstood my intent.
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Mar 28, 2023, 12:33 PM
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The pharisees were self righteous. In their minds they lived perfect lives. What they did is what we do today. We treat sin like calories. If you eat a doughnut when no one is watching you gain no calories. Your butt will testify against you but you can pass that off as being big boned or thyroid issues.
It's exactly what you accuse your Pentecostal folks of doing; condemning you for drinking beer and strong drink and appearing to live according to the Laws of The Pentecostal Churches. Perhaps they do and perhaps they don't. Perhaps they aren't matured enough to know that pointing out sin in the lives of others is the main street of self-righteousness and they might be running all the redlights during their journey.
If so they ignore the fact that only God's Word can lead a man to Jesus with the power of God's Holy Spirit as the only catalyst to cause a reaction. Maybe they try to beat you down with God's Word and maybe that makes them feel better about the sin in their hearts and lives. Perhaps they believe that Romans Chpt 2 vs 1 doesn't apply to them.
I can't say because all that is way above my paygrade. Now I'm a fatbutt. I admit I'm 50 lbs overweight and confess that it's because I eat cornbread, beans and fried taters pretty often. I'm not bragging about all the good food I'm blessed to have but I also loves me some super crunchy peanut butter and grape jelly too. I buy exotic cheese to go with my crackers too. A lb at Sam's club cost more than $10.
I'm a Baptist so I'm way above being self righteous or proud and I'm proud of that fact too! lol
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Orange Blooded [2281]
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Re: Oh you misunderstood my intent.
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Mar 28, 2023, 1:28 PM
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I was raised Baptist not penecostal, and yes, I was led to believe drinking alcohol is a sin. But that's a different discussion...
So according to you nobody is in fact "godly". We all have skeletons in our closet so to speak.
That would make the "godliness" of the translators of the KJV a mute point, and a little bit of a deceptive one.
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Oculus Spirit [94584]
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Yeah, there's a difference between a man who lives...
Mar 29, 2023, 10:27 AM
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in a manner in which he is trying to obey God and one who has no concept of what God wants for him. One of the characteristics of a man trying to obey God is that he knows he's a sinner.
Our secular nature makes us want to dismiss or justify our sin, God's nature within us makes us want to confess and repent (turn away) from our sin. The lost don't have God's nature within.
I only feel justified saying that all men are sinful because the Bible says it.
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Oculus Spirit [94584]
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I think I would have said 'I'm sorry, not qualified.'
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Mar 28, 2023, 11:17 AM
[ in reply to Re: Oh you misunderstood my intent. ] |
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If tapped to do something of that magnitude.
I also think that if we consider they grew up without telephones, tvs, radios and internet, the Mercedes Benz of the day had four legs we might start to see how they viewed education as entertainment. They didn't have public education so The Church ran all the schools and universities. All their teachers were on the same page as the church which supported their institutions.
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All-In [30254]
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Re: I think I would have said 'I'm sorry, not qualified.'
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Mar 28, 2023, 11:22 AM
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Talk about a resume booster..."Yeah, I kinda wrote the Bible in English". It's right here on page 6 of my Curriculum Vitae
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Oculus Spirit [94584]
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...and people use John Hancock to refer to signature.***
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Mar 28, 2023, 12:36 PM
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Oculus Spirit [94584]
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Some time ago I ordered two books on the...
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Mar 28, 2023, 10:55 AM
[ in reply to Re: Oh you misunderstood my intent. ] |
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origin of the KJ Bible and couldn't interested (stay awake) long enough to last through the first couple chapters of each. When I try to read about the Bible it's always on the commode where sessions never last long enough to keep up with the concepts.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NygOFsExGMU
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All-In [30254]
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Re: Some time ago I ordered two books on the...
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Mar 28, 2023, 11:27 AM
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Hilarious!
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Orange Blooded [2281]
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Re: Jews for Jesus have something to say too
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Mar 26, 2023, 7:07 PM
[ in reply to Jews for Jesus have something to say too ] |
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This doesn't touch on the accusations in lengthy article I posted, that the original meaning has been compromised of particularly Psalm 22, verse 17.
According to the link, the rendering in modern christian bibles is not found in any of the Hebrew manuscripts or the Septuagint, which is the very translation Jesus often quoted from.
That seems like a pretty big deal to me.
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Oculus Spirit [94584]
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So the Jews found the scri pt which Jesus studied...
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Mar 26, 2023, 11:31 PM
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when he visited the Temple in Jerusalem?
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Orange Blooded [2281]
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Re: So the Jews found the scri pt which Jesus studied...
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Mar 27, 2023, 8:25 AM
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I'm just showing you what this particular Jewish scholar says...that the passage that way it's rendered in modern christian translations is not found that way in the manuscripts we have of the Old Testament both in hebrew and the greek septuagint.
If you would like to find evidence that disputes that claim I'm all ears.
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Orange Blooded [2281]
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Re: Jews for Jesus have something to say too
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Mar 26, 2023, 7:26 PM
[ in reply to Jews for Jesus have something to say too ] |
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So HuntClub®'s article says this :
"However, the Septuagint—the Greek translation of the Old Testament made in the first few centuries before Jesus—has “pierced.” And the Hebrew words for “they have pierced” (kaaru) and “like a lion” (kaari) differ by one letter, both similar to the other, so that a scribe could easily have made a mistake in copying the passage."
My link from the other thread says this:
"But, who says this is the meaning of the psalmist’s words? The Christian rendering is neither in any Hebrew manuscript nor is it to be found in the Septuagint as it is often alleged."
Which one is correct?
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All-In [30254]
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Re: A jewish Rabbi on Psalm 22 and the christian bible
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Mar 26, 2023, 5:24 PM
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Damm that guy went on a tear, lol. I almost fell on the floor with "...or that we somehow do not understand our own Bible."
His passion aside, I thought his arguments were very thorough, meticulous, and right on point. No waffling, no dodging, no ambiguity. And I almost feel like I can read some Hebrew now too as an extra bonus. And I was very surprised to read some of Luther's comments. It was off topic but extremely interesting and I'm glad he broached it, even if it was to get a load off his chest lol. I could feel the fire coming off the page while he bristled on that one. Prickly hot. Whew.
It wasn't his intent and I don't think he necessarily refuted anything about Jesus's existence or possible divinity. But IMO he sure blasted using Psalm 22:16 to support those claims. That is, if I were looking for evidence to support Jesus, I would look somewhere else.
My point is that Jesus could surely exist and be divine independent of any scripture. I'm not even sure what credibility "prophecy" adds at all to his existence. Believers believe - they don't need cryptic or ambiguous prophetic interpretations in the OT to do so. When I was a believer the NT was completely sufficient for me. Once the rules change and the Law is fulfilled, why even bother with the OT, you know?
I would love to see an equally thorough response to this guy's reply. Not generic wishy-washy stuff, but a knowledgeable Christian theologian saying "No, 17N) is a REAL Hebrew word, and not gibberish." Or whatever. Basically a point-by-point cross examination. Man that would be great. Great find.
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Oculus Spirit [94584]
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Why bother with the Old Testament?
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Mar 26, 2023, 5:50 PM
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Are you kidding. Read the Pilgrims Progress? The Old Testament is the unedited version. The Hebrews as a nation did exactly what Christians do every day. They might go through the misery of disobedience resulting in the commission of sin or the omission of following God's desire for them for years, decades or centuries but the comparisons are exactly the same as Christians goes through every day.
When I read about King David's prayers for protection from his enemies it reminds me that inside me is the only enemy which can break my fellowship with God. The next time you come across some of David's whining remember me sharing his misery when I remember my sins of the day.
I don't believe that 'I got saved then changed my mind.' If you believe that you either never got saved or you are so tangled in your intellect you can't breathe spiritually.
I have known Christians who were so angry at God they claimed to not believe in Him anymore. But as I've told a few guys here, saying God doesn't exist is not paying Him back for things about life you don't like.
If anyone really wants to offend God all they have to do is worry. You see, doubt is not the opposite of faith. Worry is. I have a lifetime of experience and the same suffered when God shows me why things don't suit me I realize how wrong I was.
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All-In [30254]
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Re: Why bother with the Old Testament?
Mar 26, 2023, 7:32 PM
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>If you believe that you either never got saved or you are so tangled in your intellect you can't breathe spiritually.
I'd say either one of those is entirely possible. ">"
One of my favorite quotes goes something like "the learned will never have the spiritual experience of a yogi."
Which is like saying, if one spends one's time reading scripture and learning, one is not spending one's time meditating and enlightening one's self.
Or, ya can't do both 100%. I like it.
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Oculus Spirit [94584]
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Yoda, not a typo, was full of beans.
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Mar 26, 2023, 9:57 PM
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If he had been reading my Bible he would have known what I know. I can't comprehend scripture without being in communion with God. That is why you, TBD and others including Christians can read the Bible and never reach the truth.
It's so much simpler and easier to read about the Bible because things written about the Bible are written by men, God wrote the Bible. I only said that because it's the truth. That's the truth Jesus was talking about when He said, "If ye continue in my word then are ye my disciples indeed and ye shall know the truth and the truth shall set you free."
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All-In [30254]
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Re: Yoda, not a typo, was full of beans.
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Mar 26, 2023, 10:00 PM
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>can read the Bible and never reach the truth.
Sure. I can see that. Same idea.
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Oculus Spirit [94584]
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You should have gone into politics.
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Mar 26, 2023, 10:17 PM
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You would make a good ambassador. Kissinger has nothing on you.
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All-In [30254]
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Re: You should have gone into politics.
Mar 26, 2023, 10:31 PM
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Well. I think it's an absolutely valid point that focus, and the way one approaches a subject, matters. If one paints 100% of the time they will probably never be as good of a pianist as one who spends 100% of his time playing piano, and vice versa.
Reading the Bible historically vs. reading it spiritually can lead to 2 different places, I imagine. I spent over 20 years doing it one way, now I'm trying another ">
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Oculus Spirit [94584]
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Re: You should have gone into politics.
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Mar 26, 2023, 10:41 PM
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I don't care, I'm moving you up on my prayer list. Felix and Carlsbad have been at the top long enough. TBD has scoked up half a dozen times so I know he's well covered.
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All-In [30254]
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Re: You should have gone into politics.
Mar 26, 2023, 10:47 PM
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Well since I'm on the fence and no longer an atheist I won't refuse your kind offer. Maybe it will help ">
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Oculus Spirit [94584]
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You ought to read the Bible rather than the Cliff Notes.
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Mar 26, 2023, 5:25 PM
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There are plenty of Christian Jews who read Hebrew and there are plenty of Christian scholars also who read Hebrew.
Reading what a Hebrew says about Jesus is about like reading what a blind man says about the color blue. No offense to Jewish Tiger Fans intended but even your own prophets told your people many times that you're stiffnecked in refusing to trust God.
To you, TBD, Jesus did things only God could do. Some of the prophets sought God and He performed miracles to prove they represented Him and brought His word to them. Jesus healed the sick, cast out demons, made whole the cripple and lame and raised the dead. No one ever did all that before.
Now, finally, if the Jews of Jesus time knew He was the Messiah they wouldn't have crucified Him. Jews were the power that had Him nailed to a cross. No I'm not going all Mel Gibson on you.
Pilot, a Roman, washed his hands and said, "I am innocent of this righteous man's blood,"
What a dilemma they would have faced had they realized He was their Christ. They wouldn't have crucified Him and I would be up Chitcreek without a paddle. I love the Jewish people. They did something for gentiles that we couldn't do for ourselves. They crucified God.
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All-In [30254]
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Re: You ought to read the Bible rather than the Cliff Notes.
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Mar 26, 2023, 7:13 PM
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>They wouldn't have crucified Him and I would be up Chitcreek without a paddle.
That's a really good point, leading to a really interesting question:
What if Jesus had died a natural death? Would it have made any difference?
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Legend [18118]
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What if He had died a natural death?
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Mar 26, 2023, 9:34 PM
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Psalm 22 already tells us (prophetically) that wasn't going to happen.
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Oculus Spirit [94584]
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I try to resist idle speculation which benefits...
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Mar 26, 2023, 9:47 PM
[ in reply to Re: You ought to read the Bible rather than the Cliff Notes. ] |
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absolutely no one, but really, it's me.
There is no what if. He was God, He had total control over the circumstances of His death. He had the power to end the universe as sure as He designed and created it. Even Satan knew, he challenged Jesus to jump off a cliff saying 'The angels will keep you from even dashing your foot.' paraphrased
If you can take that from my mind with your synoptic neutralizer pistol I can probably come up with something more to your liking.
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All-In [30254]
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Re: I try to resist idle speculation which benefits...
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Mar 26, 2023, 10:06 PM
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>my synoptic neutralizer pistol
.jpg)
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Oculus Spirit [94584]
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I was thinking more about the Romulan Disruptor...
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Mar 26, 2023, 10:19 PM
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but you oneupped me again.
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Orange Blooded [2281]
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Oculus Spirit [94584]
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You find a practicing Jew and tell him I said...
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Mar 26, 2023, 10:03 PM
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their prophets called them stiffnecked and send him to me so I can show him what he hasn't read in His Bible. The Hebrews, as a nation, reminded me of how I behaved daily. I identify with them and appreciate their story more than most of them do.
I'm sorry they missed the boat. I'm also rejoicing that we got their tickets.
You forget, all the writers of the Old and New Testaments were Hebrew. You know my love and respect for Paul and the Gospel writers. How in hell could I be antisemitic with my Lord and another 50 or so Jews be my heroes?
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Orange Blooded [2281]
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Re: You find a practicing Jew and tell him I said...
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Mar 27, 2023, 8:28 AM
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You said a "hebrew" can't comment on Jesus, as if they can't read and study their own scriptures and make their own well informed decision.
You making claims that you'll only read and take from one translation that you were raised to believe was the only correct one shows that you are not open to the truth, just your version of it.
And you rejoicing that millions of Jews get to go to hell for eternity is disgusting.
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Oculus Spirit [94584]
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My rejoicing is not for someone or anyone going to hell.
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Mar 27, 2023, 10:48 AM
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That's a horrible and false accusation. My rejoicing is in my communion and fellowship with God. I rejoice that the Jew's rejected Him only in that His offer of communion and fellowship was thereby extended to me.
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Hall of Famer [24716]
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You are exactly right. A person dumbs himself down by
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Mar 26, 2023, 8:19 PM
[ in reply to You ought to read the Bible rather than the Cliff Notes. ] |
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responding to the OP as if there is any credibility there. If the issue is the wording of the OT, there are millions of Hebrew speaking Jewish Christians, translations of the original Hebrew - directly from the Hebrew - have been rendered into almost every language, and new translations from the original Hebrew are being made into English as we speak. Many seminaries require proficiency in Hebrew to get a degree.
The same is true of the periodically revisited nonsense that the the original Greek of the NT has been reworded. I know a couple of native Greek speakers, and I often confirm with them the wording of certain passages. Haven't found a "rewording" yet. The idea of a systematic restatement of the Jewish and Greek scriptures is straight tin foil hat stuff.
The only true fact to by learned from this OP, and from some of the responses, is that people everywhere are triggered by the name "Jesus". That triggering leads some to repetitious trolling for whatever short lived pleasure it gives them, and others to self affirming intellectualizing of the subject, as if one can philosophize Jesus into or out of existence. The remaining fact is that the overwhelming evidence is that Jesus of Nazareth is who he said he was. One can come to terms with that and live in peace, or continue the exhausting and unfulfilling search for self affirmation.
"Why do you persecute me? Is it hard to kick against the goads?" Yes, it is. The one we rail against, upon mere thought of his name, created us, knew us before we were born, and decided to die for us before we had one rebellious thought. One day, hopefully not one day too late, we will want to apologize for actually seeking to lead people astray from the only salvation open to them.
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Orange Blooded [2281]
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Re: You are exactly right. A person dumbs himself down by
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Mar 26, 2023, 8:40 PM
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Well we know you christians will insert a passage to confirm certain theological view points and call it scripture.
Let's not pretend you're incapable of doing the same with a passage confirming Jesus to be the messiah.
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Legend [18118]
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Re: You are exactly right. A person dumbs himself down by
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Mar 26, 2023, 9:39 PM
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Are you a muslim?
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Oculus Spirit [94584]
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Subthread jack.
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Mar 26, 2023, 10:15 PM
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I was reading in Genesis this morning and noticed that Ismael was in Abraham's camp when God told them about snipping the skin. I never noticed that Hagar returned to Sarah.
Gen 16:
"8 And he said, Hagar, Sarai's maid, whence camest thou? and whither wilt thou go? And she said, I flee from the face of my mistress Sarai.
9 And the angel of the LORD said unto her, Return to thy mistress, and submit thyself under her hands.
10 And the angel of the LORD said unto her, I will multiply thy seed exceedingly, that it shall not be numbered for multitude.
11 And the angel of the LORD said unto her, Behold, thou art with child, and shalt bear a son, and shalt call his name Ishmael; because the LORD hath heard thy affliction.
12 And he will be a wild man; his hand will be against every man, and every man's hand against him; and he shall dwell in the presence of all his brethren."
They are stuck with each other until the end.
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All-In [30254]
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Oculus Spirit [94584]
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I stick to the Bible.
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Mar 26, 2023, 10:06 PM
[ in reply to Re: You are exactly right. A person dumbs himself down by ] |
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I don't jump from one website to another. My understanding is authentic, you have no idea what you believe. Your belief is subject to change according to what you want to post to confound those who are praying for you and begging you to return to Christ and His fellowship.
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Orange Blooded [2281]
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Re: I stick to the Bible.
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Mar 27, 2023, 8:45 AM
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I made a statement in another thread that what you call truth is not universally true.
I made the statement that two people can both look at a religious book like the Old Testament, both with the opinion that it is "god's word", and come away with different "truths", and I am correct in saying that.
You refuse to look at any evidence against what you were raised to believe. That's not seeking truth.
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Oculus Spirit [94584]
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The difference is comprehension and understanding.
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Mar 27, 2023, 10:56 AM
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Why should I waste my precious time reading what the blind think about the color orange?
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All-In [30254]
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Re: You are exactly right. A person dumbs himself down by
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Mar 26, 2023, 11:49 PM
[ in reply to You are exactly right. A person dumbs himself down by ] |
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>One can come to terms with that and live in peace, or continue the exhausting and unfulfilling search for self affirmation.
There's a third option, too. One can reject Christ and live in peace. I did that for a long time. To rank the happy times in my life I'd say I was most happy as an Atheist because it's so simple. Nothing has to be explained...good, bad, existence, eternity. Everything simply "is", One doesn't wonder why children die. They just do. One doesn't wonder why there is suffering in the world. There just is. One doesn't have to wonder what God's mystery plan is because there is no mystery plan. Everything in existence simply is, at face value. There's no outside standard to live up to. No sin, no heaven, no hell. It sort of focuses your life on the here and now. The Golden Rule rules. Want a good life? Treat people as you want to be treated. Want a bad life? Pixx everyone you know off. It all becomes very, very simple when all you have is the here and now.
I was probably second happiest as a Christian, because the answers provided are indeed very comforting as long as they hold up. It's comforting to have a loving, caring God. It's comforting for someone to have everything under control, even if it's all behind the scenes. It's comforting that there is an eternal reward for believing, at a minimum, and possibly for one's good deeds and efforts in life, depending on one's faith. It's comforting that one matters beyond the here and now, that one has an existence beyond the troubles of the moment. A Heaven for one's eternal life. And the knowledge that good will prevail over evil is very appealing.
There may be other options that include living in peace, but I can't speak to those because I haven't experienced them. I imagine there are plenty of happy Muslims and Hindus, etc. I can say that I'd be an Atheist or a Christian again in a heartbeat if I could. But one I lost faith in and the other I reasoned myself out of. Atheism is probably out forever because I doubt I could ever overcome the question that unhinged me. Christianity still might have a chance, but who knows what it will take to reignite faith? I find agnosticism to be terribly gnawing, but as always, one must believe what they believe. It simply can't be helped. One can fool others but one can never fool one's self. Anyhow, the greater point is that I'm not sure all world happiness and peace is dependent on knowing or accepting Jesus. It wasn't for me. If there is an omnipotent God I wouldn't try to restrict him to only one path.
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Orange Blooded [2281]
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Re: You are exactly right. A person dumbs himself down by
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Mar 27, 2023, 8:41 AM
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Great post. I feel about the same as you do.
When I was a christian, there was a little bit of peace knowing that you were right with the creator of the universe and that you were eternally secure, but that didn't override the other feelings that came along with it. For me, I was constantly having to go against my intellect. I was constantly on the defense of my beliefs and feeling like I had to explain things away. I looked at people who didn't believe as I did as if they had something wrong with them, and they just couldn't see the light.
Now that I'm agnostic, I feel like I'm much more open and accepting of other people and their beliefs.
I actually feel sorry for people like CUintulsa®. There's absolutely no reason to get that upset about someone openly and honestly discussing religion like we do on this board and that was, at the end of the day, the straw that broke the camels back for me and Christianity. I'm not gonna throw in with people who insult and attack someone for being honest just because it steps on my toes, and that's exactly what christians do when they feel their beliefs are questioned. They get defensive, hurl insults, and paint you as a liar and troll, when you are just being honest.
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All-In [30254]
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Re: You are exactly right. A person dumbs himself down by
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Mar 27, 2023, 2:47 PM
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>Now that I'm agnostic, I feel like I'm much more open and accepting of other people and their beliefs.
Ditto. I'm not threatened by any ideas or knowledge that might be counter to my beliefs. In fact, I find other's beliefs interesting and exciting. When you are not invested in any particular belief system you are not at risk of losing anything you've invested in, ya know? It's sort of liberating. Frustrating, but also liberating.
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Hall of Famer [24716]
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I see the words, but the actions are opposite.
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Mar 27, 2023, 10:19 AM
[ in reply to Re: You are exactly right. A person dumbs himself down by ] |
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Not yours necessarily - I dont know you - though there seems to have been considerable effort to convince yourself and us you understand enough history to philosophize Jesus-as-Messiah out of existence. It is an admirable amount of work. Few of us, and I am not among them, understand the motivations underlying most of what we do. Likewise, a troll poster who says he just wants to discuss things isnt fooling anyone. The hate for the name "Jesus" is clear. And becoming clearer in our culture.
I am sure that had I met Paul of Tarsus in 33 AD I would have found him to be quite happy by human standards. Highly educated, respected, a member of the elite. Probably had some family money. Now, in the prime of life, he was chosen for a very important mission, and given authority to exercise extreme measures to achieve it. The first license to kill. "Tarsus. Paul Tarsus." He was happy. Try to tell him differently, see where you get.
For reasons we cant know unless we were there, when Jesus asked him, "Is it hard to kick against the goads?", Paul was self aware enough to understand the question and think, "I've collected a lot of accolades doing so, but yes, it is." It is the question we all have to answer.
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Orange Blooded [2281]
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Re: I see the words, but the actions are opposite.
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Mar 27, 2023, 11:39 AM
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It doesn’t take much effort to find dissenting opinions on the Christian interpretation and rendering of certain Old Testament passages like the one we’ve been discussing here.
I don’t hate Jesus, I hate arrogant self righteous people that claim to follow his teachings.
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Oculus Spirit [94584]
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WELL, I NEVER!
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Mar 27, 2023, 2:54 PM
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lol
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Hall of Famer [24716]
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Harrumph.***
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Mar 27, 2023, 9:21 PM
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All-In [30254]
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Re: I see the words, but the actions are opposite.
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Mar 27, 2023, 2:35 PM
[ in reply to I see the words, but the actions are opposite. ] |
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>there seems to have been considerable effort to convince yourself and us you understand enough history to philosophize Jesus-as-Messiah out of existence.
How is presenting the history of Western religion philosophizing Jesus-as-Messiah out of existence?
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How is it so? Or why do I think you are doing so?
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Mar 27, 2023, 9:20 PM
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It is so because one of the more common tools of atheists/skeptics is to claim that "Christianity is just one of many socially constructed belief systems that humans have invented to explain what they don't understand." Sometimes this is presented as trolls do: "You guys need a crutch, so you invent lies".
Sometimes it is cloaked in academic form, as if it were a sociological study. The stone age people worshipped this, the iron age people worshipped that, some had flood myths, some had sacrificial messiah myths, and now along comes Christianity, so there you go. Sometimes this is said in a paragraph, sometimes it includes "twenty-seven 8 X 10 colored glossy pictures with the circles and arrows, and a paragraph on the back of each one". Either way, the conclusion is an assertion not explained by sociology, so it should be challenged and discussed.
What makes me think you are doing so? First, I didn't intend for my comment to be an accusation of bad motives. If a person wants to make that case, fine. There is nothing wrong with a person proposing that idea, and it's a fun discussion. It's a little more on-the-table if the guy will just say that this is his point, and if he takes a while to get there I might go ahead and say it for him, but it's fine.
So, to the point of what makes me think you are doing this: I would have to read back through a lot of your original posts, and your replies in resulting threads, because the specific instances do not come to mind at the moment, but there have been several cases where I have read a post and felt sure your underlying intent is to make that assertion. The reason I am not taking the time to do this is that I don't consider it to be a big deal. It's fine either way. All I can say is that I have read posts of yours that led me to think so.
Edit: LOL, TLDR, I don't know.
Message was edited by: CUintulsa®
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All-In [30254]
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Re: How is it so? Or why do I think you are doing so?
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Mar 28, 2023, 1:06 AM
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>one of the more common tools of atheists/skeptics is to claim that "Christianity is just one of many socially constructed belief systems that humans have invented to explain what they don't understand.
>and felt sure your underlying intent is to make that assertion.
How about this?
It is. All religions are. Even if the seed was handed down by God himself.
If people have ever been involved in a religion in any way, then it is most decidedly "social." And unless the liturgy, rituals, texts, and rules of those religions existed prior to man’s own existence, they were definitely "constructed and invented" by humans. Did God tell us to build cathedrals, or hold Mass, or chalk doors on Epiphany Day, or hide Easter eggs, or put up Christmas trees?
And the purpose of all of those religions is to understand that which we do not understand. Christians use Christianity to explain God, Muslims use Islam to explain God, and Rastafarians use ghanja to explain God.
So I’d agree with that definition 100%.
As an agnostic I don’t know if man invented Jesus or God, but man did invent Christianity. You’d refute that? This could be a great discussion. We might want to start a new post.
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Hall of Famer [24716]
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Thanks. I was starting to doubt my own memory for a moment.
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Mar 28, 2023, 1:54 PM
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Yes, that is what I perceived your intent to be.
"He has placed eternity in the hearts of men." It is therefore possible that a religion can be man made, but religion itself not be man made.
If God does not exist, that statement is not true and all religions are, by definition, manmade. If God does exist, the sifting between manmade and God's communication then starts. Whether God exists is another subject. Therefore, with an agnostic, in this discussion I would ask that we begin with the assumption God exists. Otherwise, I simply grant the agnostic his assumption that religions are manmade. Fair enough?
As to whether man invented Christianity, that too requires a beginning point. Many of the various rituals and observances that have developed over the centuries are manmade. If by "Christianity" you mean the practice of all those, I will grant that some of it is manmade. What a short discussion that was. So, I don't think that is what you mean.
The early Christians had a kerfuffle over this same issue. The first Gentile Christians became so by adopting no belief or practice other than a relational one directly with a living Jesus. They were later asked to adopt some Jewish ideas and practices by the first Jewish Christians who naturally considered the following of Jesus to be part of the Jewish religion. This was a defensible idea, because many of the Jewish practices were not manmade, but given to them by Yahweh. So, the crap hit the fan, and in what was a clear understanding of who Jesus is, they made the hard decision to back off that, and to not impose those practices. If by "Christianity" one means the surrender of oneself to a living Jesus of Nazareth - which is what I mean by that word - no, that is the opposite of manmade.
This means the only relevant issue is, "Who is Jesus?" His identity is not determined sociologically. He doesn't give us that option.
Message was edited by: CUintulsa®
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All-In [30254]
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Re: Thanks. I was starting to doubt my own memory for a moment.
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Mar 28, 2023, 2:52 PM
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>If religion is the sense that God exists, it is not man made. If a particular one is man's attempt understand or please God, it is man made.
Yes, I think the definition of religion here is important. Restating your point I believe,
1) If God doesn't exist, all religions are manmade by default
2A) If God does exist, then religion could be viewed as his instructions or communications to man, or,
2B) If God does exist, then religion could alternatively be viewed as a manmade attempt to understand God if God is passive, or if God's instructions or communications are beyond man's ability to comprehend, or,
2C) If God does exist, then religion could alternatively be viewed as a combination of 2A and 2B
In short, either God reaches out, or man reaches out, or both.
I'd agree with all that.
>I would ask that we begin with the assumption God exists.
As an agnostic I'm already halfway there, but I can go All-In, dust off my Christian hat, and try to remember the glorious days of my youth.
Hello God! Good to see you again!
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Hall of Famer [24716]
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Re: Thanks. I was starting to doubt my own memory for a moment.
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Mar 28, 2023, 3:27 PM
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LOL. 'Sup?
Nothing much, how 'bout you?
Sameoh.
By asking for that assumption I wasn't asking you to personally decide, but just for that particular discussion, so it doesn't arrive back at the starting point. But sure, 2(c), if I understood you.
If God exists, the sense that he does, and the desire to understand, is not manmade. Sacrificing kids in Ur - or worse, the obligatory midnight Christmas service - is manmade. How we get from one to the other, and are so far off when we get there, is the issue, isn't it?
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All-In [30254]
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Re: Thanks. I was starting to doubt my own memory for a moment.
Mar 28, 2023, 3:34 PM
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>I wasn't asking you to personally decide,
Well, it was nice to be younger again, if only for a moment.
>How we get from one to the other, and are so far off when we get there, is the issue, isn't it?
Indeed it is. We are definitely imperfect creatures. No doubt about that.
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All-In [30254]
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Re: Thanks. I was starting to doubt my own memory for a moment.
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Mar 28, 2023, 3:18 PM
[ in reply to Thanks. I was starting to doubt my own memory for a moment. ] |
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> If by "Christianity" you mean the practice of all those, I will grant that some of it is manmade.
>If by "Christianity" one means the surrender of oneself to a living Jesus of Nazareth - which is what I mean by that word - no, that is the opposite of manmade.
Agreed. The definition here is all-important, too. It would seem we have a shortage of words in our language. Not enough words for the distinctions of religion, or for the distinctions of Christianity. Or maybe we have enough words, just not small, concise ones that don't need a lot of conditionals attached.
>The first Gentile Christians became so by adopting no belief or practice other than a relational one directly with a living Jesus. They were later asked to adopt some Jewish ideas and practices by the first Jewish Christians who naturally considered the following of Jesus to be part of the Jewish religion.
This is such a fascinating time to me because yes, I think both positions are defensible. I mean, how can worshipping the Jewish Messiah not require any Jewish practices? That must have blown more than a few minds. Until of course, one realizes that the practices themselves were now defunct.
>"Who is Jesus?"
I think this question goes all the way back to those first Gentiles and Jews who walked with him. And it had to be a challenging question for all converts.
If I'm a gentile with no prior Jewish experience, then I'm thinking "what is sin? I've never even heard of sin. And who are Adam and Eve? Why did what they do affect me? And why does this Jesus guy have to die to save me from something I didn't even do?" That must have been strange to buy into.
And If I'm a Jew I'm asking, "why is this guy not up on a white horse killing my enemies? I understand sin and sacrifice, but Yahweh is now going to accept a person as a sacrifice? After he already warned us against sacrificing babies to Moloch? Wait, what? This Jesus guy IS God? Yahweh is going to sacrifice himself? Or at least his human form? And everything I've ever learned is moot? Why here? Why now?
That's an equally shocking mind-warp to buy into. But people did. It's one of my favorite periods in history.
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Hall of Famer [24716]
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With you 100%. How a nonreligious gentile could adopt
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Mar 28, 2023, 4:14 PM
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Jesus-as-Messiah is interesting and, to me, is understood in theological terms. I could make the case, for instance, that the understanding of sin is universal: almost everywhere theft is intuitively known for what it is. But forget that. If God exists, and if we are all rebelled from him, in the human heart will remain the sense of aloneness, of separateness. When Jesus knocks on the door as in Rev 3:20, one's own spirit will respond. I have seen that happen. [Not all do, most choosing to continue in self pursuit, which is the original condition. That's another subject.]
And yes, a Jew could expect the white horse messiah. Judas likely thought he was helping that along.
Yes, I too think this is the most interesting of all human subjects. If I could wave a wand and be at any moment in history, I would likely choose to be beside Neil Armstrong when he nearly ran the LEM out of fuel before setting it down. Holy moley, what a moment. Buzz Aldrin later said, referring to the fact that the first landing was a cluster eff all the way down, "I owe my life to the fact that I was flying with Neil Armstrong that day."
But aside from that - if you'll give me that one as a freebe - I would choose to be there when Paul met with Peter And The Twelve to hash out the Galatian issue. Paul was livid. Peter was Peter. Big-boy-pants only. But what I would love to have heard is those two people, knowing who they are, deconstruct the competing positions and arrive not at a compromise, but an understanding that "only Jesus" was the new rule. Peter didn't back away from anyone, yet eventually said, "You're right." I would love to have heard that happen.
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Orange Blooded [2281]
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Re: With you 100%. How a nonreligious gentile could adopt
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Mar 28, 2023, 4:30 PM
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"I could make the case, for instance, that the understanding of sin is universal: almost everywhere theft is intuitively known for what it is."
It doesn't take a god to convince someone that they don't like having their #### taken.
And things like having too much to drink, marrying a member of the opposite sex, or wacking your willy are not universally understood as sin.
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All-In [30254]
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Re: With you 100%. How a nonreligious gentile could adopt
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Mar 28, 2023, 9:50 PM
[ in reply to With you 100%. How a nonreligious gentile could adopt ] |
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>Holy moley, what a moment.
That was a pee yer pants moment for sure.
>deconstruct the competing positions
Oh to be in that room at the time. It literally determined the direction of Christianity. A colossal moment. And recorded for history. Just amazing.
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