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Ultimate Tiger [37815]
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I have an eery feeling that...
Apr 23, 2019, 9:34 AM
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...the Calhoun name will be removed from campus starting today. I believe this is probably the right thing to do. Just my feeling on it.
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110%er [4055]
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Re: I have an eery feeling that...
Apr 23, 2019, 9:49 AM
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Removing his name would be downright wrong, especially from Clemson. After all, wasn't it his land that Clemson sits on? A hundred years from now, they will want to remove Eisenhower's name.
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Orange Blooded [2484]
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where is Eisenhower's name on campus***
Apr 23, 2019, 10:03 AM
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CU Medallion [20635]
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Re: where is Eisenhower's name on campus***
Apr 23, 2019, 12:00 PM
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Eisenhower Field. As in Frank Eisenhower field. “Death Valley.” I thought everybody knew that. Geez.
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Ultimate Tiger [37815]
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Re: I have an eery feeling that...
Apr 23, 2019, 10:05 AM
[ in reply to Re: I have an eery feeling that... ] |
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flatfoots, I could be completely wrong so I apologize in advance, but I thought the land was donated by Thomas Greene Clemson.
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Orange Blooded [2484]
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It was but it was Calhoun land that was donated being
Apr 23, 2019, 10:08 AM
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that Clemson was his brother in law
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Hall of Famer [8795]
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Re: It was but it was Calhoun land that was donated being
Apr 23, 2019, 10:17 AM
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Thomas Clemson was his son-in-law....married his daughter Anna Maria Calhoun Clemson. Thomas Clemson inherited Fort Hill and the land when she passed away.
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Heisman Winner [83112]
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Orange Elite [5304]
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Re: I have an eery feeling that...
Apr 23, 2019, 10:20 AM
[ in reply to Re: I have an eery feeling that... ] |
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might want to finish that statement...
donated by Thomas Green Clemson, the husband of Anna Calhoun who was John Calhoun's daughter. Fort Hill was John Calhoun's land, willed to Anna by her mother upon her death.
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110%er [6825]
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Re: I have an eery feeling that...
Apr 23, 2019, 11:44 AM
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And there is your solution...
Name it Anna Calhoun Honors College.
Splits the objections down the middle.
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Orange Elite [5304]
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Re: I have an eery feeling that...
Apr 23, 2019, 12:52 PM
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Not really, considering Thomas Green Clemson and Anna both also owned some slaves after they had Fort Hill. There is no great solution that won't hurt the name of the University and City in the end... Which I'm sure they won't be doing.
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110%er [6825]
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Re: I have an eery feeling that...
Apr 23, 2019, 1:25 PM
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Shrug. If you say no to Anna, you are anti-feminist right?. It would split the change-name base.
Interestingly enough, there is only one public school named solely after a woman. Mary Washington. George's mother. My opinion is that there needs to be more.
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Rival Killer [2600]
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Re: I have an eery feeling that...
Apr 23, 2019, 1:28 PM
[ in reply to Re: I have an eery feeling that... ] |
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Women didn’t own chit. They didn’t even own the right to vote.
I think that’s a name worth pursuing.
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Paw Master [17833]
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Name of the City was already changed from Calhoun to Clemson
Apr 23, 2019, 1:32 PM
[ in reply to Re: I have an eery feeling that... ] |
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Can't change it to "Orangeburg"...that is already taken. Can we name it after Fort Hill itself, or is that off limits because slaves once lived there?
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Starter [386]
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Orange Elite [5146]
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Re: I have an eery feeling that...
Apr 23, 2019, 11:57 AM
[ in reply to Re: I have an eery feeling that... ] |
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Well here's the problem right here. Obviously a bunch of people don't know anything about Clemson.
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Tiger Spirit [9595]
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Re: I have an eery feeling that...
Apr 23, 2019, 10:12 AM
[ in reply to Re: I have an eery feeling that... ] |
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Just wait til they decide to dynamite the Washington Monument., taliban style. That's where we are headed if people keep accepting this kind of mindset.
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Tiger Spirit [9595]
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Re: I have an eery feeling that...
Apr 23, 2019, 10:12 AM
[ in reply to Re: I have an eery feeling that... ] |
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Just wait til they decide to dynamite the Washington Monument., taliban style. That's where we are headed if people keep accepting this kind of mindset.
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Orange Elite [5304]
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Re: I have an eery feeling that...
Apr 23, 2019, 10:22 AM
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then eventually everything Marin Luther King, Rosa Parks, etc. After all, if there was no slavery, was no segregation...what was it they stood for?? What should they be honored for?? Oh yeah, that history no longer exists. Hmmmm.....
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Rival Killer [2600]
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Re: I have an eery feeling that...
Apr 23, 2019, 1:33 PM
[ in reply to Re: I have an eery feeling that... ] |
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Looks like we are going to have to burn everything down and start over. This time we will live in tents. Tents with no names.
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110%er [3654]
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Re: I have an eery feeling that...
Apr 24, 2019, 9:20 AM
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You can’t say tents with no name... a horse with no name is already taken!
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Paw Warrior [4928]
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Owning another human being is wrong
Apr 23, 2019, 10:21 AM
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but it was the way things were back then. Doesn't make it right but are we going to tear down everything built in the name of someone who followed the customs and laws of their time but was wrong by our modern standards? If so, how about the way women were treated? Are we going to strike down everything named after a man who didn't vote for the 19th amendment?
How about current day and anything named after Mohamed or any other practicing muslim? I guess it's ok to take a child bride and make your women submit to sharia law. It makes me sick that pretty much the same people that want to take Calhoun's name off buildings, etc are the very same people who are OK with the way muslims treat women TODAY, not more than 100 years ago.
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Oculus Spirit [43456]
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men were the only ones that voted for the 19th amendment
Apr 23, 2019, 10:24 AM
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lots of women were against it
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Paw Warrior [4928]
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Since only men could vote
Apr 23, 2019, 10:29 AM
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men did vote for the 19th amendment. What about the men that didn't vote for it - the elected public officials who voted against it? Those men voted to suppress the rights of women. If any buildings, monuments, etc exist in those men's names should they be renamed or torn down?
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Ultimate Tiger [37815]
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Re: men were the only ones that voted for the 19th amendment
Apr 23, 2019, 10:29 AM
[ in reply to men were the only ones that voted for the 19th amendment ] |
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I really don't know how I feel truly. I am 100% against racism and 100% against the atrocities of our past (slavery, racism, etc.)
This is really a tough one for me. However, I believe if the name really does evoke the memories of slavery and hatred in a lot of peoples minds then it should probably be removed.
Again, I am truly torn but I can see both sides of the fight.
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Orange Blooded [2217]
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Anti slavery? Bold stance
Apr 23, 2019, 10:39 AM
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If we’re going to remove the name of everyone that ever owned a slave nothing is going to have a name anymore. If the name was really that big of an issue for people they shouldn’t have come to Clemson.
Which is more likely: they’re actually offended or they feel like they need to protest something and this is an easy target? If you’re going to rename everything just because a few people feign offense, I’m going to open up a sign and plaque making company.
Slavery and racism are an ugly part of America’s (and the world’s for that matter) past. Striking that from history eliminates the ability to see progress and keeps society at large from being able to put modern issues in the proper context.
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Top TigerNet [31616]
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Removing a name from a building is not equal
Apr 23, 2019, 11:29 AM
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To "striking it from history". There's a difference between remembering history and honoring it. Naming things after people is usually intended to honor them.
In Iraq they pulled down the statue of Saddam Hussein. It seems like many here think they should have left it up for the purpose of "history".
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Ultimate Tiger [37815]
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Re: Removing a name from a building is not equal
Apr 23, 2019, 11:33 AM
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T_I_P, couldn't have said it any better my friend.
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Orange Elite [5304]
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Re: Removing a name from a building is not equal
Apr 23, 2019, 1:00 PM
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Actually he could have if he knew the whole history... What if I tell you if you check the Clemson.edu history about it, you'll find out Thomas Green Clemson and Anna Calhoun owned slaves and he took one with him to Belgium when he was a diplomat.
https://www.clemson.edu/about/history/properties/fort-hill/african-americans.html
Everyone ready for the offended to change the University and City name? Yeah, didn't think so.
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Orange Blooded [2217]
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Re: Removing a name from a building is not equal
Apr 23, 2019, 11:53 AM
[ in reply to Removing a name from a building is not equal ] |
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Reasonable point. But if the name on a building affects you enough where it hampers your day to day life (big leap), why did you come to Clemson in the first place?
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Ultimate Tiger [37815]
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Re: Removing a name from a building is not equal
Apr 23, 2019, 11:55 AM
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Maybe they did not know what the name represented until it was brought to light recently? Its not just students who live and/or work in Clemson.
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Orange Blooded [2217]
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Re: Removing a name from a building is not equal
Apr 23, 2019, 12:02 PM
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So the history of the institution and it’s founders is important enough to be a major issue now but it wasn’t a big enough factor to do 5 minutes of research when you were deciding where to study/work/live?
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Paw Master [17833]
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So John C. Calhoun = Saddam Hussein?
Apr 23, 2019, 12:29 PM
[ in reply to Removing a name from a building is not equal ] |
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That's quite a leap. And I seriously doubt that John C. Calhoun erected statues of himself...or named buildings to honor himself.
I see your point about "removing history", but come on, man.
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Ultimate Tiger [37815]
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Re: So John C. Calhoun = Saddam Hussein?
Apr 23, 2019, 12:32 PM
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I agree, probably not a great comparison and I can admit that completely.
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Offensive Star [303]
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Re: men were the only ones that voted for the 19th amendment
Apr 23, 2019, 12:02 PM
[ in reply to Re: men were the only ones that voted for the 19th amendment ] |
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No blacks today have been a slave. Don't see how it could provoke those thoughts. I think people just need something to complain about. The true nature of people.......
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Orange Blooded [2217]
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Re: men were the only ones that voted for the 19th amendment
Apr 23, 2019, 12:14 PM
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There are plenty of other and more pressing instances of racism in America to spend your time fighting against than this.
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Ultimate Tiger [37815]
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Re: men were the only ones that voted for the 19th amendment
Apr 23, 2019, 12:16 PM
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I am not leading a fight against it at all. As I said in earlier posts, I am truly conflicted as to what I think should happen.
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Orange Blooded [2217]
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Re: men were the only ones that voted for the 19th amendment
Apr 23, 2019, 12:40 PM
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Not trying to single you out, apologies if that’s how it came across. My comment was about the people vehemently against having these buildings named as they currently are who are expending time and resources choosing this battle when there are ones of far greater consequence that actually impact peoples lives in a meaningful way.
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Ultimate Tiger [37815]
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Re: men were the only ones that voted for the 19th amendment
Apr 23, 2019, 12:42 PM
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No worries BornATiger, I appreciate your opinion and other point of views. I am not that type of guy to think I am right and everyone else is wrong. I love being educated by others and accept that learning.
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Paw Warrior [5074]
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Re: men were the only ones that voted for the 19th amendment
Apr 23, 2019, 8:11 PM
[ in reply to Re: men were the only ones that voted for the 19th amendment ] |
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I wonder if people would be cool with a Hitler building since most people weren’t alive when he was around? I wonder if people in 100 years would be ok with a Bin Laden building since 911 would have been before they were born?
Not saying you’re a confederate flag supporter, but it’s interesting how I most often see that same comment from people in support of the flag. Yet, many of the flag supporters claim to be honoring their ancestors who fought in the war. Why would they care about their ancestors who died long before they were born?
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Orange Blooded [2484]
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CU Medallion [19114]
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Re: I have an eery feeling that...
Apr 23, 2019, 10:28 AM
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"There is no king who has not had a slave among his ancestors and no slave who has not had a king among his."
---------Helen Keller
As ugly as it is, it's part of history.
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TigerNet Eternal Icon [186537]
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Re: I have an eery feeling that...
Apr 23, 2019, 10:31 AM
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agree and it'll never be erased from history.
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Orange Blooded [2554]
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Re: I have an eery feeling that...
Apr 23, 2019, 10:37 AM
[ in reply to Re: I have an eery feeling that... ] |
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I think this decision would be easier to make if we knew the circumstances behind changing the name to Calhoun honors college in 1981. The thing I have come to be wary of is when buildings and institutions get renamed. I can think of two instances in our state where the reasoning was faulty imo. This one is harder to gauge though.
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CU Guru [1222]
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Paw Master [17143]
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Yeah, let's bury the past so we can repeat it in the future***
Apr 23, 2019, 11:02 AM
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All-In [27366]
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Maybe you should go read the Clemson will.***
Apr 23, 2019, 11:16 AM
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Ring of Honor [22128]
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Re: I have an eery feeling that...
Apr 23, 2019, 11:20 AM
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We can't change the past, we learn from the past and move on. If we can't move on to the future we become stagnant, and die. Would it not be better to forgive rather than demolish?
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Ultimate Tiger [37815]
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Re: I have an eery feeling that...
Apr 23, 2019, 11:30 AM
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I do understand we can't change the past. However, certain events and names do bring back horrific memories. Slavery is such an atrocity. Would Germany consider leaving Hitler's name on buildings because you cant change the past in Germany?
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Freshman [3]
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Re: I have an eery feeling that...
Apr 23, 2019, 11:35 AM
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You're comparing a plantation owner to a man who lead a genocide against a whole continent. If people are so wrapped up into the history of Clemson then why come here? As a current student I can assure the names of the buildings on campus matter to maybe 5% of the student body. The 5% are the ones pushing for the change.
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Ultimate Tiger [37815]
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Re: I have an eery feeling that...
Apr 23, 2019, 11:41 AM
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Well does it matter to past graduates and the families of students? How about the community and those that live in Clemson? How about workers at the University? A slave owner is just as bad as a dictator. Both are horrible people. History may not be able to be erased, but why honor it?
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Varsity [110]
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People really need to read up on some history
Apr 23, 2019, 12:08 PM
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Ultimate Tiger [37815]
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Re: People really need to read up on some history
Apr 23, 2019, 12:12 PM
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Horrible people are horrible people no matter how they persecute people. Whether a dictator or a slave owner, evil is evil.
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Hall of Famer [8795]
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Re: People really need to read up on some history
Apr 23, 2019, 12:32 PM
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Well, then let’s just re-name everything with the names Washington, Jefferson, half of the cities and counties throughout the US, especially the South, because they’re named after a large number of plantation owners and affluent people who owned slaves, who you equate with Hitler. Rip up the Constitution and Declaration of Independence too, it’s best to forget those names. Humans are humans and not are not perfect. I don’t believe anyone would admire them for being slave owners, but it’s a part of our history and they contributed greatly to what makes us who we are. Good and bad. Mad men like Hitler and Stalin murdered, tortured, and imprisoned millions of people. You are severely misguided and misinformed.
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Ultimate Tiger [37815]
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Re: People really need to read up on some history
Apr 23, 2019, 12:35 PM
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So, you are saying slave owners didn't murder, imprison and torture people? I agree I was off base comparing him to Hitler, but you cannot make me believe that slavery was not imprisonment and torture.
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Orange Elite [5146]
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Re: People really need to read up on some history
Apr 24, 2019, 9:10 AM
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Not defending slavery but many slaves were treated well by their owners. Not everyone was tortured.
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Paw Master [17833]
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By your argument, Clemson University was championed by
Apr 23, 2019, 12:35 PM
[ in reply to Re: People really need to read up on some history ] |
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and created by "horrible people", so maybe we should just bulldoze the whole campus and shut the university's doors? Is not the whole university the seed of the "horrible" fruit? Why settle for a symbol, or a name?
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Ultimate Tiger [37815]
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Re: By your argument, Clemson University was championed by
Apr 23, 2019, 12:40 PM
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It is not an argument. As I have said multiple times in this thread, I am truly conflicted about the name and what should be done. I have not said nor will I say that any of you that may have differing opinions is wrong. Everyone has a voice and I am not hear to say you're wrong or I am right. ####, I could easily be way off base. As I said, the comparison to Hitler was not a good comparison at all. At no point, have I said that anyone that disagrees with me is wrong. I am truly interested in hearing the different points of view and seeing the information. I am not so full of myself that my mind couldn't be changed or altered.
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Orange Elite [5304]
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Paw Master [17833]
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Gosh, there are a lot of puppies that will need new names
Apr 23, 2019, 12:39 PM
[ in reply to Re: People really need to read up on some history ] |
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I see people asking for suggestions for "Clemson puppy" names, and Tillman and Calhoun are always near the top of the list. Funny how this "honoring evil" objection never comes up in those situations.
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Varsity [110]
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110%er [3654]
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Re: I have an eery feeling that...
Apr 24, 2019, 9:50 AM
[ in reply to Re: I have an eery feeling that... ] |
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We are all slaves, if you work for somebody else or if you owe someone. We are slaves to our national debt that the politicians put on us. I have no problem with the past and letting it go and forgiving and forgetting something I don’t control. It is what it is. I don’t like all the mlk stuff either or black this or black tv, but that is totally acceptable. Also, on applications are you white, red green blue black.
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Clemson Sports Icon [54383]
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When will the PC snowflakes demand we change the name of
Apr 23, 2019, 1:24 PM
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our capital from Washington, DC?
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Paw Master [17833]
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Washington AND Columbus, in a single place name
Apr 23, 2019, 2:11 PM
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How was this not changed years ago? Hey, come to think of it, our state capital was also named after Columbus.
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Rival Killer [2950]
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Re: I have an eery feeling that...
Apr 23, 2019, 1:32 PM
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You can't go back and apologize for everything that happened in the past. It was a different world, we see it today, they saw it then. Don't let newbies who weren't there change everything about history, as it it didn't happened. This is total B> S>
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Starter [386]
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Tillman maybe, but I doubt Calhoun***
Apr 23, 2019, 1:34 PM
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All-TigerNet [10134]
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Re: Tillman maybe, but I doubt Calhoun***
Apr 23, 2019, 7:58 PM
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According to my 23 and me test results, I’m .01% Ashkenazi Jew. I’m offended by everyone and everything now... I’m renaming it all!
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Orange Blooded [2451]
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Re: I have an eery feeling that...
Apr 23, 2019, 8:03 PM
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To be consistent, let's rename Yale University, Fannueil Hall in Boston, take down the Washington and Jefferson memorials,etc.
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Paw Warrior [5074]
TigerPulse: 100%
37
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Re: I have an eery feeling that...
Apr 23, 2019, 8:05 PM
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I don’t feel strongly either way about this, but laugh at the “erasing history” people. I kept hearing the same comments about the confederate flag being taken from the state house.
They took the flag down and last I checked the flag and the civil war are still covered in history books, and they are both displayed in the State Museum.
Funny how the Germans took down any mention of Hitler and we still all somehow know about Hitler 75 years later. It’s almost as if people can learn about history somewhere other than a statue, flag, or building name.
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Orange Elite [5146]
TigerPulse: 100%
38
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Instead of worrying about names of buildings why don't...
Apr 24, 2019, 9:14 AM
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these offended people do something about the slavery that still exists in the world today. Especially in Africa where they enslave and sell their own people of the same color. That would make more sense than changing the name of building or tearing down a monument.
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