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Orange Blooded [2693]
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What Is and Is Not Authoritarian?
Sep 13, 2021, 11:22 PM
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Where were all these drama queens like Gov. Foghorn at the start of the school year when his own agencies in SC issued new vaccine requirements for school children.
This is the kind of public health initiative that we have asked our government to provide. This is not about some authoritarian overreach.
So many cry babies out here wailing about authoritarian maneuvers to push folks to get a simple shot or two to stop a pandemic, but when young children are required to have multiple shots throughout their first twelve years to attend school and y’all have nothing to say.
So much weak.
Hepatitis A Vaccine has been added as a requirement:
Childcare: 2 doses of Hepatitis A vaccine with both doses received on or after the first birthday and separated by at least 6 months for any child born on or after January 1, 2019.
School: 2 doses of Hepatitis A vaccine with both doses received on or after the first birthday and separated by at least 6 months for 5K only.
https://ed.sc.gov/newsroom/school-district-memoranda-archive/school-and-childcare-requirements-for-school-year-2020-21/dhec-immunization-requirement-letter/
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All-TigerNet [13115]
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Re: What Is and Is Not Authoritarian?
Sep 14, 2021, 7:35 AM
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You sound like the cry baby.
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All-In [34486]
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All you do is cry and play victim on here.
Sep 14, 2021, 8:05 AM
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G T FO you little baby-back bitch lol
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All-TigerNet [13115]
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Re: All you do is cry and play victim on here.
Sep 14, 2021, 8:15 AM
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any day...any day.
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All-In [34486]
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It's literally every day.***
Sep 14, 2021, 8:23 AM
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All-TigerNet [13115]
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Re: It's literally every day.***
Sep 14, 2021, 8:27 AM
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is that waaay more than just "every day"? God your such a little pansy.
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All-In [34486]
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you're****
Sep 14, 2021, 8:27 AM
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And I'm not the one playing victim every day. Little kitty. Meow.
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All-In [42170]
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Orange Blooded [2693]
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Lot o points [155929]
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Underrated Zeppelin song.***
Sep 14, 2021, 7:38 AM
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All-In [26968]
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Hyperbole abounds.
Sep 14, 2021, 7:42 AM
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A vaccine mandate is more authoritarian than not having a vaccine mandate. Having speed limits is more authoritarian than not having them. Having extra unemployment benefits was more socialistic than not having them. Having Medicare is more socialistic than not having it.
The country is not headed towards authoritarianism, communism, socialism, or fascism. Depending on ideologies of leaders at any given time, tendencies swing some one way or the other, but never far from center. It was set up that way from the start.
The hyperbole is just used as a scare tactic to raise money and increase support.
Can't tell you how many times I've seen these statements next to each other, sometimes in the same paragraph: "I refuse to live in FEAR of this virus. I have FAITH, not FEAR. Also, AMERICA IS BEING DESTROYED FROM WITHIN!"
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Lot o points [155929]
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Those are really poor examples, IMHO, as they
Sep 14, 2021, 7:44 AM
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Were all correctly enacted by congressional legislation.
Few are arguing about the mandate itself so much as how it was enacted. You’re arguing the wrong point.
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All-In [26968]
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My post is not about whether vaccine mandates
Sep 14, 2021, 7:47 AM
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are right or wrong, so you are correct, that I'm arguing a different point. I don't know if it's the "wrong" point...it's the point I chose to argue about in my particular post.
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All-In [26968]
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I think my post better answer the OP's subject line
Sep 14, 2021, 7:48 AM
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than a post talking about whether the mandates are appropriate.
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Lot o points [155929]
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Ok you’re arguing a point no one else is making them.
Sep 14, 2021, 7:50 AM
[ in reply to My post is not about whether vaccine mandates ] |
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They’re not authoritarian because it punitively coerces a large portion of the population into getting vaccines. It’s authoritarian because it was incorrectly put into play by a single individual with an executive order and not by Congress making it a law. Joe’s the authoritarian one in this instance, not the mandate.
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All-In [26968]
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OK***
Sep 14, 2021, 7:51 AM
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Lot o points [155929]
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10/10 substantive reply.***
Sep 14, 2021, 8:02 AM
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All-In [26968]
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I mean, I agree. Not sure what to say.
Sep 14, 2021, 8:10 AM
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I agree, but not really germane to what I was talking about. That's why I said, "OK".
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All-In [42170]
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I'm struggling to see...
Sep 14, 2021, 7:55 AM
[ in reply to Ok you’re arguing a point no one else is making them. ] |
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Why some people aren't getting this point, like the OP.
The issue isn't the vaccines. The same point holds if Biden mandated that every business provide their employees with a puppy.
That's the point.
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Lot o points [155929]
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I truly don’t get it either.***
Sep 14, 2021, 8:01 AM
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All-In [42170]
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You don't think...
Sep 14, 2021, 7:53 AM
[ in reply to Hyperbole abounds. ] |
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When a president goes around Congress and threatens punitive measures against private businesses for not complying with his mandate, that's not authoritarian?
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All-In [26968]
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I think I said the opposite, didn't I?***
Sep 14, 2021, 7:53 AM
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All-In [42170]
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But you also said...
Sep 14, 2021, 7:55 AM
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We aren't heading towards authoritarianism, when actions like this and the three presidents before Biden have put us on that path.
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All-In [26968]
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That's the hyperbole talking.
Sep 14, 2021, 7:58 AM
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It's like saying if I at a salad for lunch, then I'm on a path to vegetarianism. No, sometimes it's just a salad.
The President has done an authoritarian thing. I'm against it. But we'll be OK. Some President or Congressional act soon will go the other direction, and on we'll go. Been that way for a couple centuries now.
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All-In [42170]
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World history is full of examples...
Sep 14, 2021, 8:00 AM
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Where people would have called it hyperbolic until it was too late.
I'd rather err on the side of hyperbole.
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All-In [26968]
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There you go...totally different philosophies.
Sep 14, 2021, 8:11 AM
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I believe exactly the opposite of that last sentence, in all aspects of my life.
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All-In [42170]
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I think it depends on the situation
Sep 14, 2021, 8:13 AM
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When people say we're doomed after our first two games and we need to start canning Tony Elliott, that's hyperbole I don't like to side with.
When it comes to egregious government overreach that goes unchallenged, I'm all about that hyperbole.
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All-In [26968]
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"Going unchallenged"?
Sep 14, 2021, 8:14 AM
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I can hardly imagine anything being more challenged. Not sure how you can say that.
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All-In [42170]
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IMO...
Sep 14, 2021, 8:21 AM
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Executive orders go unchallenged too often. We'll see on this one, though.
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All-In [26968]
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Executive orders are often "authoritarian"
Sep 14, 2021, 8:25 AM
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in that they overreach, but they're also one of the easiest things to resolve, because all it takes is an election, and poof, the order is no more, if a President is elected who doesn't want to do it.
I continue to hope that we can nominate and elect a good, conservative candidate for President.
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Lot o points [155929]
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Oculus Spirit [97727]
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We have tacitly instituted defacto authoritarianism by
Sep 14, 2021, 8:32 AM
[ in reply to That's the hyperbole talking. ] |
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buying compliance, mostly. Just a general trend. There I go using Obed's fancy words again.
55mph speed limits, tied to tax dollars. 21yo drinking age, tied to tax dollars. 21yo smoking age, tied to tax dollars. Federal vaccine mandate, tied to tax dollars. SC mask ban in public schools, tied to tax dollars. SC mask ban for cities and counties, tied to tax dollars. For those things you can't legislate with votes in a legislative body, you can attach conditions that become policy without a democratic vote through buying compliance with the money you take from people in taxes. It's a work-around to our constitution, both federal and (now in SC) state. AND THAT is the main reason legislative bodies never cut spending, because their power and control is derived from the dollars they spend and the compliance they can buy with them. If they can issue debt, to spend more dollars, they can buy more compliance and increase power. AND that is the reason there was NO FEDERAL INCOME TAX for half the existence of our nation.
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Orange Blooded [2693]
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and the court's wild use of the commerce clause
Sep 14, 2021, 10:56 AM
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to justify the authority of the federal agencies, aka "the government".
There are so many layers of this story that most don't even bother to address, but it is too easy to just point fingers at the one bad man for actually using the federal authority.
Why not blame the Congress for OSHA Act of 1970 and the courts for every commerce clause decision over the last 100 years?
In one sense, Biden is just playing the cards he has been dealt. Play them effectively, the pandemic ends and he is the good guy once again, and we will all love the Commerce Clause for ever and ever.
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Oculus Spirit [97727]
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That's been going on since WW2.
Sep 14, 2021, 12:26 PM
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Never will forget the case in Constitutional Law. Was a course taught by a liberal professor. At issue was if a farmer in Kansas, who grew wheat, and was forced to pay the federal wheat tax on the portion he kept for use by his own family. That portion which he sold would have been subject to the tax as an item of interstate commerce. BUT, the wheat he kept for his family was not sold, transported across state lines, and he argued HIS personal wheat for his family should not be taxed. To this day the circular argument made by the court escapes me. But basically, I think, the court's argument was since he kept that wheat for his family, he then presumably purchased no wheat for his family, as such that would impact wheat that WOULD have crossed state lines, and would have been sold, as he would have bought it. As such, it's still taxable because had he not kept it, he would have purchased it through interstate commerce. Commerce clause has been a problem ever since. That case grants unlimited taxation powers basically.
Congress has every right to levy taxes, that's actually their job, as is allocating spending. I DO blame Congress though for abdicating their job and punting on OSHA, and many other things, EPA, for example. Just legislate the creation of a bureaucracy, then punt all authority to them to avoid any contentious debate. Yeah, that's been a big problem too for a long time that puts bureaucrats in positions of power they should not be in (which breeds the deep state conspiracies and givens those legs). Congress just wants to get reelected and enjoy the power of spending money. And they have legislated easy debt for decades as well. Free trade, NAFTA, ignoring illegal immigration or immigration reform, all designed to deflate the dollar and keep debt cheap, so they can buy more votes and pay as little as possible servicing the public debt. There is probably more bipartisanship (below the surface) here than anywhere, until recently.
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Orange Blooded [2693]
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It is a fairly unappreciated part of our history
Sep 14, 2021, 6:44 PM
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considering that the vast majority of Federal agencies owe their power to this clause as well as the success of several landmark civil rights cases over Title II of Civil Rights Act, etc.
After the Marshall court decided Gibbons v. Ogden it was all downhill, and even Jefferson at age 82 saw what would happen. It would be charitable to say he wasn't a fan.
One could argue Marshall is the primary reason the country has evolved to its present form here today as much as any of the key founders based on his exceptionally broad definition of the word commerce.
During the period 1870–1900, about 185 cases involving the commerce clause were decided by the Court. Approximately 700 commerce clause cases have been decided since 1900. Truly staggering how much it has been used as a primary basis of power.
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Orange Blooded [2693]
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Guys like Thomas Hobbes set this wheel in motion
Sep 14, 2021, 9:02 AM
[ in reply to Hyperbole abounds. ] |
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Re-read the Leviathan recently. Highly recommend.
Ask the first question, why do we even need a government? And then extrapolate your answers from there. Also liked this book, which is how we wind up here.
The OSHA Act of 1970 didn’t materialize out of thin air. The hilarious thing about it is that we have VOTED for the nanny state.
https://books.google.com/books/about/First_Principles.html?id=-hrQDwAAQBAJ
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All-In [42170]
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Re: What Is and Is Not Authoritarian?
Sep 14, 2021, 7:52 AM
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Sorry you feel pointing out that Biden circumventing Congress with an EO to punish private corporations into vaccination compliance is being a "crybaby," but we'll call it what it actually is: being an American who supports checks and balances and good government.
This isn't about mandatory vaccines; it's about the avenues used to get there. In the state examples you listed, those were implemented through the proper legal channels. The Biden EO is not.
That's the point. Make sure you see the forest.
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Orange Blooded [2693]
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All-In [42170]
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That's a pretty loose way to apply that legislation
Sep 14, 2021, 8:41 AM
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That's an act that was put in place to make sure I'm not getting zapped by exposed wires or having cinder blocks fall on my head.
Doesn't seem to cover employers forcing their employees to get shots.
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Orange Blooded [2693]
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I’d rather take my chances with a loose wire
Sep 14, 2021, 8:47 AM
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Than an aerosolized contagion that could eventually kill me or someone else.
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All-In [42170]
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Sure, me too.
Sep 14, 2021, 8:55 AM
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And I think everyone should be vaccinated by now, and I think those who have simply refused for political or conspiracy reasons are idiots. Plain and simple.
But I'm also not in favor of giving unchecked authority to a president because we're citing a crisis. We pulled some of that same #### post-9/11. I, like many others, also question Biden's competency here or wonder who might be calling the shots in this case.
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Orange Blooded [2999]
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All-In [42170]
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They only require hepatitis vaccines
Sep 14, 2021, 9:25 AM
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If a person has a reasonable risk of exposure to blood or bodily fluids, like an EMT or a doctor.
I can't think of any vaccine OSHA requires for all workers under threat of penalty to employers. But if I'm missing one, please correct me.
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Orange Blooded [2999]
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So wouldn't that logic follow then? I'm not huge on Biden,
Sep 14, 2021, 10:04 AM
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but I don't see this falling under the label of authoritarian of fascist as some have claimed.
You have a reasonable risk of exposure to the novel coronavirus at a company with north of 100 employees, therefore get the vaccine. If you don't want to get the vaccine, you can be tested for Covid instead.
Going by the numbers, Covid is worse than other seasonal illnesses.
Remember at the start of the pandemic, like the first couple of weeks when everyone was somewhat working together, and there was a collective drive to find ways to open up and operate safely?
We would make some changes, wear masks, distance, the wave would pass and we'd move on thinking it was all behind us? Then another wave, another set of ERs and ICUs pushed to the brink, protests, regulation, deregulation, and the wave would pass. Things would go back to normal for a bit.
Then a preventable wave arrives. You watch folks like Pressley Stutts tweet conspiracy theories about the virus that's killing him while the virus is killing him. At what point do we have to get more drastic in the name of damage control? The current system for quarantines, contact tracing, storing bodies in freezer trucks doesn't seem to be working.
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Orange Blooded [2693]
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Re: OSHA has vaccine requirements and recommendations
Sep 14, 2021, 10:48 AM
[ in reply to OSHA has vaccine requirements and recommendations ] |
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Once again it comes down to the commerce clause, which is where OSHA's authority is derived from.
If this Supreme Court stands on the opposite side of the commerce clause, then they will have rejected everything the Federalist Society has ever lectured them about on the subject of textualism.
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