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110%er [7954]
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Some thoughts on basketball
Mar 14, 2022, 11:11 AM
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I've written before that I don't think the finances will permit us to become a perennial upper echelon ACC basketball school. There are other ACC schools (Duke, UNC, Syracuse, etc.) that use their financial resources to secure a national power basketball program. We can argue this point all we want but there are no schools that are perennial national powers in both football and basketball. Florida had a couple of good basketball years but are currently a middle of the road SEC team in search of a head coach.
Not being a perennial power does not mean we should accept the mediocrity that currently defines Clemson Basketball. Not even making the NIT field is under performing by any standard. This season was not a success in any form whatsoever.
Being a "good man" is not the definition of a good basketball coach. Yes, I want someone that will represent Clemson well. Yes, I want someone that will run a clean program. A program run with integrity and a program that makes excellence the standard are not mutually exclusive.
Are there disadvantages to be overcome at Clemson? Yes, and they are well documented. Geography: Midweeks games are tough draws for our campus. Recruiting: Is difficult with our lack of tradition and lack of recent success. The former could be overcome by playing several "home" games per year at Bon Secours in Greenville, much the way Alabama used to play some home football games at Legion Field in Birmingham. The later can be overcome by a run of twenty win seasons, making a run in the ACC and NCAA tournaments.
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All-TigerNet [11483]
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So what should the plan be, eh?
Mar 14, 2022, 11:23 AM
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???
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CU Medallion [64590]
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If you're content with mediocrity...
Mar 14, 2022, 11:31 AM
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and only making the NCAAT twice every eleven years, Brad Brownell is probably your guy.
If you subscribe to the belief that if teams like Baylor and Texas Tech and be really good in basketball, then there is no reason Clemson can't be too, the first step is to bring in a coach who can make it happen because that ain't Brad Brownell.
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110%er [7992]
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Re: If you're content with mediocrity...
Mar 14, 2022, 11:36 AM
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and only making the NCAAT twice every eleven years, Brad Brownell is probably your guy.
If you subscribe to the belief that if teams like Baylor and Texas Tech and be really good in basketball, then there is no reason Clemson can't be too, the first step is to bring in a coach who can make it happen because that ain't Brad Brownell.
Which coach would be the guy who can make it happen? Old NCtigs pointed out that medved had turned down several offers this year but in his typical delusional way thought that we could entice him to Clemson next year. See the top up and comers are not interested in risking their future at CU given the difficulty of the job so we could look forward to a reach candidate who had less at risk given the salary involved. This process would look much like the last two coot coaching searches in football where fans clamored for the name guys only to come up empty.
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CU Medallion [64590]
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Clemson absolutely has to change its approach...
Mar 14, 2022, 11:43 AM
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to hiring, at least as it pertains to basketball. Find your coach, the absolute best person for the job, and then pay them whatever it takes to get them here as opposed to going out searching for a coach who is willing to accept the job for the money Clemson has budgeted.
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Letterman [257]
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Re: Clemson absolutely has to change its approach...
Mar 14, 2022, 11:59 AM
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Coaches aren't stupid, they aren't just going to go somewhere that pays well and nothing else. They want to see the support in terms of staffing, facilities, etc. The goal is to make Clemson a destination job for the next Coach K, Dean Smith, etc., i.e., a young coach that could find success and stay there. I'm not saying that the next coach must be a Coach K, but someone that can be at Clemson for a long time and be successful.
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CU Medallion [67847]
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Re: Clemson absolutely has to change its approach...
Mar 14, 2022, 12:42 PM
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Stupid!! Yes so true . If you want stupid maybe hire a referee. 
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110%er [7992]
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Re: Clemson absolutely has to change its approach...
Mar 14, 2022, 1:21 PM
[ in reply to Clemson absolutely has to change its approach... ] |
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to hiring, at least as it pertains to basketball. Find your coach, the absolute best person for the job, and then pay them whatever it takes to get them here as opposed to going out searching for a coach who is willing to accept the job for the money Clemson has budgeted.
Where would this new money be found? The women's teams are required to meet title 9. The AD tried to cut mens track but y'all cried so much that they had to reinstate the sport. Guess we could cut football spending but they are already being outspent by the other elite teams so unless you want the football program to match the basketball program then cutting it is not a good idea.
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CU Guru [1778]
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Re: If you're content with mediocrity...
Mar 14, 2022, 11:52 AM
[ in reply to Re: If you're content with mediocrity... ] |
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One thing we know for sure is that Brownell isn't the guy. We may try and fail several times before we find the right fit, but continuing down this road further into a second decade is insane.
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Letterman [257]
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Re: If you're content with mediocrity...
Mar 14, 2022, 11:55 AM
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Try and fail several times? You think that's good for a program?
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CU Guru [1778]
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Re: If you're content with mediocrity...
Mar 14, 2022, 12:08 PM
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If you want to get better you have to assume some level of risk. Given where we are now there isn't much to risk loosing anyway.
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Letterman [257]
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Re: If you're content with mediocrity...
Mar 14, 2022, 12:15 PM
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You say that, but there truly is, unless you feel like this season is the same as a single-digit win season.
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CU Guru [1778]
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Re: If you're content with mediocrity...
Mar 14, 2022, 12:19 PM
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Are we trying to be the best, win the conference, build the program to be better year after year or are we just trying to not finish last?
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CU Medallion [58415]
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Right - it's really simple, and the defeatist attitude of so
Mar 14, 2022, 1:20 PM
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many fans is astounding.
Clemson basketball under 12 years of Brownell has been mediocre. While there may be other factors influencing that outcome to varying degrees, we have a 12-year body of work by Brownell upon which to evaluate. That's a really solid sample size in the college basketball world. As much as his loyalists would prefer otherwise, there is no way a rational person can separate Brownell from that record, or from the performance of his team(s). His record has been mediocre by definition. Period, end of discussion. No rational, honest person would expect anything more from Brad Brownell at Clemson, under any circumstances - there is no reason to.
Every second we continue with Brad Brownell is accepting mediocrity, which to me, is accepting defeat. It means we have given up trying to be better. Again, not trying to be Duke/UNC, but let's try to win the ACC Tournament ONCE for God's sake. Let's at least contend for the top spot in the ACC every now and then. Let's put a couple of players in the NBA that have an actual impact. Let's finish in the top 25 a couple of times. Let's be relevant in basketball. Let's move up and out of permanent mediocrity. That's all. With Brownell, we know for a fact it's not likely. Another coach gives us a chance - see Virginia Tech.
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110%er [7992]
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Re: Right - it's really simple, and the defeatist attitude of so
Mar 14, 2022, 1:53 PM
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many fans is astounding.
Clemson basketball under 12 years of Brownell has been mediocre. While there may be other factors influencing that outcome to varying degrees, we have a 12-year body of work by Brownell upon which to evaluate. That's a really solid sample size in the college basketball world. As much as his loyalists would prefer otherwise, there is no way a rational person can separate Brownell from that record, or from the performance of his team(s). His record has been mediocre by definition. Period, end of discussion. No rational, honest person would expect anything more from Brad Brownell at Clemson, under any circumstances - there is no reason to.
Every second we continue with Brad Brownell is accepting mediocrity, which to me, is accepting defeat. It means we have given up trying to be better. Again, not trying to be Duke/UNC, but let's try to win the ACC Tournament ONCE for God's sake. Let's at least contend for the top spot in the ACC every now and then. Let's put a couple of players in the NBA that have an actual impact. Let's finish in the top 25 a couple of times. Let's be relevant in basketball. Let's move up and out of permanent mediocrity. That's all. With Brownell, we know for a fact it's not likely. Another coach gives us a chance - see Virginia Tech.
Mediocre means medium or average. We have been average in the ACC but we are at a little less than average in spending. So CBB has given good value. If you dont want to be average then above average investment would be needed. Wondering where the money would come from unless cutting he track team is back on the table?
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CU Medallion [58415]
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#1. I'm all for spending more money on basketball.
Mar 14, 2022, 3:27 PM
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#2. Lets' stop using that excuse.
How did Virginia Tech do it? How did Wake Forest Do it? Miami? Notre Dame? If all of those schools are outspending us by a significant margin, we either need to reexamine our spending and priorities, or we need to find a conference in which we aren't so overmatched and can actually be competitive in basketball. Again, it's not only an insult for Virginia Tech to come into our conference and do in a few years what we haven't come close to doing in 60 plus, it proves that the tired old mantra that "we can't afford to be any better in basketball" is a fokking lie.
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Orange Blooded [2847]
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We do not know that for sure
Mar 14, 2022, 5:43 PM
[ in reply to Re: If you're content with mediocrity... ] |
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Check the record books. Since joining the ACC in 1954, Clemson men's basketball has recorded 38 winning seasons. Brownell has recorded 11 winning seasons in 12 years. Clemson has not had a losing season in men's basketball since 2012-13. That is the longest stretch of winning seasons in Clemson basketball history. Just take a drink and think about that for a second. Y'all bitching about missing the postseason. Yeah, we're all disappointed. The coaching staff and the team are disappointed. Y'all act like they don't care. They care a whole lot more than their finicky fan base. Clemson has played in the postseason four of the last six years. And the Tigers will return next year in a big way. And after that happens, some of y'all will still want to fire Brownell because he's been here too long. Get a life.
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All-In [31310]
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Re: We do not know that for sure
Mar 14, 2022, 5:58 PM
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Cobbox no disrespect but Brownell has had to have coached in the weakest ACC of our lifetime. We haven’t sniffed a title and I’m pretty sure it’s not going to get any easier than it has been for the last few years. We finished 10th in the conference that’s hard for a lot of folks to stomach especially seeing the conference has not been good. I could careless either way but not sure where Clemson would feel like he is all of a sudden going to be anything different in year 13 than he was in years 1-12. We also normally play a weak OOC schedule as well which will normally push us to .500 or a little better.
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CU Guru [1778]
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Re: We do not know that for sure
Mar 14, 2022, 6:00 PM
[ in reply to We do not know that for sure ] |
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Yeah but... look at the last 30 years. A quick count has me at 24 of 30 were winning seasons. And that includes a disastrous Shyatt stretch. This isn't a ground breaking achievement for modern Clemson Basketball.
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All-TigerNet [10824]
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Re: If you're content with mediocrity...
Mar 14, 2022, 2:14 PM
[ in reply to If you're content with mediocrity... ] |
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Is the admin willing to shell out the bucks for a big time coach? I think our facilities are good enough. Can we fill up Littlejohn? Can we attract some really great players? Gonna be awfully tough to answer all of these in the affirmative. The entire narrative of Clemson Bball history has to be revised. Possible, but very difficult IMHO.
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Letterman [257]
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Re: So what should the plan be, eh?
Mar 14, 2022, 11:49 AM
[ in reply to So what should the plan be, eh? ] |
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My plan would be a comprehensive review of the entire basketball program from the head coach to the trainers to the support staff to the carpet in the video room. I would also gather information as to what our peers are doing, looking at schools that have been great historically (Duke, UNC, etc.) to those that have recently splashed (VT). Only once I have all of the information, could I begin to determine the path for basketball. I would confer with the BOT and see what the budget looks like. At that point, I could then determine what's reasonable for the basketball program. The benchmarks that are set can't be unreasonable.
To me, over a rolling 4 years, I would want an average finish of no worse than 6th in the ACC, 1-2 trips to the NCAAT, 1-2 trips to the NIT, and continue the work with regards to the clean program, graduating players, etc. I think that's a respectable basketball program that allows for splash season of making a run.
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All-In [40100]
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Should have read this post before I replied.
Mar 14, 2022, 12:35 PM
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This is fair. Let’s be intentional about it
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All-In [46565]
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Re: Some thoughts on basketball
Mar 14, 2022, 11:24 AM
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In my Opinion, we need a coach that has a vision to be great, we can do it with the money, facilities an all the advantages we have now, it takes a belief.
If we start out with a mentality that we can’t because of - we won’t because of our faith in that. I believe that’s our problem now. Looking to the past or what others do is another reason for impossibilities..
We need a vision to win at high level and all of Clemson has done this before without of reasons why we can’t.
(I've written before that I don't think the finances will permit us to become a perennial upper echelon ACC basketball school)
There’s not one good reason we can’t be great in Basketball.
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Letterman [257]
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Re: Some thoughts on basketball
Mar 14, 2022, 11:38 AM
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Just a vision to be great is all it takes? Do you really think Brownell doesn't want to be great or a have a vision? That's silly.
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All-In [30460]
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It doesn’t matter what Brownell thinks or what his vision is
Mar 14, 2022, 11:49 AM
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He has had 12 years and we are no better and could be said to be arguably worse. Has he created some milestones like the first win at UNC and a Sweet Sixteen? Yes. But outliers do not make success
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Letterman [257]
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Re: It doesn’t matter what Brownell thinks or what his vision is
Mar 14, 2022, 11:51 AM
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My reply was to the poster who said that all it takes is a vision to be great. I refuted that statement because I don't think that's all it takes. I understand that you think a change is warranted. That is an acceptable opinion based on BB's tenure.
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All-In [46565]
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Re: It doesn’t matter what Brownell thinks or what his vision is
Mar 14, 2022, 5:12 PM
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Low County, I’m not at a place where I can explain it, I guess you have to be a visionary to understand it ??
It’s find a man with a plan - vision to be great in the next few years, a plan that all of Clemson can get behind and support. Forgetting yesterday and all it’s negativity. Satan is the king of our past but God is the author of our future, it’s making the unseen become the seen through faith in a great tomorrow. Yesterday is over but when all of Clemson believes we can be great softball/football/soccer nothing can stop that because we all believe, help, speak and believe great change is coming. That’s the kind of coach we need, that’s believe nothing is impossible with vision, hard work and a belief.
Nothing is stopping Clemson but that lack of vision in Basketball ??
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CU Guru [1778]
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Re: Some thoughts on basketball
Mar 14, 2022, 11:55 AM
[ in reply to Re: Some thoughts on basketball ] |
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What is his vision? I don't know. How can I believe and support his vision if he can't communicate it to me?
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All-In [40100]
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CU Medallion [58415]
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Couldn't agree more.
Mar 14, 2022, 11:43 AM
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Accepting where we are now, where we have been under Brownell, and where we have traditionally been as a program overall, is, well ... unacceptable. We've had some good teams here and there, and some good players here and there, but there's been a lot of pain, disappointment, and suckage along the way. Mediocrity has become the norm. It doesn't have to be that way.
We have a choice: Keep making the same old excuses, keep doing things the same way and keep getting the same old results, or make smart, reasonable changes and get different results.
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Letterman [257]
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Re: Couldn't agree more.
Mar 14, 2022, 11:53 AM
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Yes, you're right. If we keep doing everything the same way and only change the head coach, is that setting up the new coach for sustained success?
There's more to it than just the head coach. When have 100 years of mediocrity, you are either really bad at hiring coaches or there are other factors at play.
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CU Medallion [58415]
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Then let's do it - what in the world are we waiting on?
Mar 14, 2022, 12:31 PM
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And I'm not talking about being another Duke or UNC or any other perpetual top 5 or top 10 powerhouse. I'm talking elevating to the level of FSU, Miami, Notre Dame, and now VT, all much newer members of the ACC who have humiliated our pathetic program by winning the ACC and the ACC Tournament while we continue to be embarrassed year after year after year. It's an insult, and we just rock right along and continue to make excuses while other programs show how it's done.
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Oculus Spirit [83127]
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Three schools that probably have the best football
Mar 14, 2022, 11:55 AM
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/basketball programs right now, though you're right, there are no perennial powers in both right now:
1. Baylor
2. Wisconsin
3. Michigan State
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Letterman [257]
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Re: Three schools that probably have the best football
Mar 14, 2022, 12:09 PM
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Which goes to show that it isn't easy.
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All-In [38592]
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mutually exclusive
Mar 14, 2022, 6:01 PM
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Being a "good man" is not the definition of a good basketball coach. Yes, I want someone that will represent Clemson well. Yes, I want someone that will run a clean program. A program run with integrity and a program that makes excellence the standard are not mutually exclusive.
revmarkg®
You nailed it there.
Coaches (and soon players) make millions, including ours. Ours is a great guy and a good coach.
Maybe it is time for us and he to get a fresh start. He will be fine, has millions in the bank.
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All-In [38592]
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Re: mutually exclusive
Mar 14, 2022, 6:11 PM
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This post/thread has been one of the better debates so far.
Too bad some hit the TD on some expressing an opinion, saw nothing above I needed to TD.
I go back and forth.
On the one hand, we have a good coach, on the other hand ~~~
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