Replies: 60
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Scout Team [153]
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Serious question for the bored Christians
May 8, 2019, 12:59 PM
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According to your worldview, all men like Ted Bundy, Charles Manson, Osama Bin Laden, Adolf Hitler, etc. have to do in order to inherit eternal life is profess faith in Jesus Christ on their death bed and they would spend eternity in heaven while the millions upon millions of decent human beings who were not Christians will spend it burning in a lake of fire.
How can you actually believe this?
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All-In [46825]
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Re: Serious question for the bored Christians
May 8, 2019, 1:00 PM
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jhop
Jhop83
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Oculus Spirit [93681]
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Is that you Job?
May 8, 2019, 1:04 PM
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1 Then the LORD answered Job out of the whirlwind, and said,
2 Who is this that darkeneth counsel by words without knowledge?
3 Gird up now thy loins like a man; for I will demand of thee, and answer thou me.
4 Where wast thou when I laid the foundations of the earth? declare, if thou hast understanding.
5 Who hath laid the measures thereof, if thou knowest? or who hath stretched the line upon it?
6 Whereupon are the foundations thereof fastened? or who laid the corner stone thereof;
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110%er [6272]
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i liked
May 8, 2019, 8:50 PM
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the King James Version at one time. I never thought it was the "only" valid translation, but I know people that do.
now it just seems a bit offputting and lofty.
"where wast thou" ....really?
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All-In [48078]
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Re: Serious question for the bored Christians
May 8, 2019, 1:09 PM
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Because that's what they were taught and they want to feel special to be part of an exclusive club.
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All-In [38205]
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Oculus Spirit [79429]
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you’re either like 13 years old or retarded***
May 8, 2019, 1:31 PM
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All-In [31907]
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"and/or"***
May 8, 2019, 1:41 PM
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Scout Team [153]
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All-In [31907]
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A few points (I'm not sure why)....
May 8, 2019, 1:41 PM
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All Christians don't believe in salvation by faith alone.
I don't think any Christians believe that a "profession" of faith is needed for salvation, but rather...actually having faith.
Some Christians do believe that having faith in Christ and repenting of one's sins is what is needed for salvation. But even that is a lot more complicated than how you phrased it.
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All-In [29036]
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Indeed
May 8, 2019, 1:49 PM
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It is both so very simple (genuine belief in Christ and forgiveness through that belief) and entirely deeper than is usually meant by the word "profess."
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All-In [42197]
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If I may, from a more psychological standpoint...
May 8, 2019, 2:00 PM
[ in reply to A few points (I'm not sure why).... ] |
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The people the OP listed would more than likely fall under sociopath/psychopath. People like that would lack the empathy and conscience to admit they were at fault and thus genuinely ask God for forgiveness, salvation, and redemption. Nor would they be capable of going forward in life living in a Christlike fashion.
Thus, I do not believe they would be capable of committing to the terms of agreement.
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Scout Team [153]
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Re: A few points (I'm not sure why)....
May 8, 2019, 3:35 PM
[ in reply to A few points (I'm not sure why).... ] |
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Supposedly all it took was a profession for the thief on the cross.
And this is yet another reason why Christianity is absurd. There are so many different interpretations, how can any of you know what’s right?
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All-In [31907]
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I wish I had more time to go around with you on this....
May 8, 2019, 3:45 PM
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but I think you might want to consider that you don't have a deep enough understanding about what you're talking about to adequately makes points on the subject.
As for the penitent thief, he did more than just profess belief in Jesus as son of God, he, as the name implies, repented of his sins, etc... Either way, I'm not sure that is the best example to prove or disprove belief is salvation through faith alone or not.
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Scout Team [153]
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Re: I wish I had more time to go around with you on this....
May 8, 2019, 3:53 PM
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I would be willing to bet I know just as much about the Bible if not more than you do.
The only account of the thief on the cross in Luke does not record him repenting of his sins. He recognized that he deserved his punishment and asks Jesus to remember him in his kingdom.
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All-In [31907]
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If you do, you have a weird way of showing it....
May 8, 2019, 4:09 PM
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Not sure if you had a typo or what, but the thieves on the cross are mentioned in all of the Gospels. The version in Luke has the quotes you mention below and that is the only account that addresses the thief on the right's words.
As for being repentant, he admits his crime and that he is being justly punished and ask Jesus to remember him in his kingdom. Is your intent to really split hairs as to if that is repenting on not? If you read the whole passage in context, this thief changes his attitude towards Jesus, professes Jesus is being unjustly crucified, takes responsibility for his actions, and asks Jesus to save him in his kingdom.
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Scout Team [153]
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Re: If you do, you have a weird way of showing it....
May 8, 2019, 4:23 PM
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The only account that has the one of thieves calling Jesus Lord and being promised salvation is Luke. Matthew and Mark say both thieves mocked Jesus.
Regardless, the doctrine of salvation by faith alone is everywhere in the New Testament.
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All-In [31907]
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Certainly in Paul's writings, yes....
May 8, 2019, 5:10 PM
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I'm not sure who you're arguing against now.
I don't disagree that salvation through faith alone is a theme in the Bible. I believe in your original post you said something like "just professing" faith. That is different that actually HAVING faith.
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Scout Team [153]
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Re: Certainly in Paul's writings, yes....
May 8, 2019, 7:11 PM
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I’m not sure what your argument is here.
My OP asked a question. You responded that “not all Christians believe in salvation by faith alone” implying that you believe it takes more. Now you want to split hairs over the definition of faith.
Romans 10:9
“If you declare with your mouth, "Jesus is Lord," and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.”
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Oculus Spirit [81925]
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You keep literally saying it.
May 9, 2019, 11:20 AM
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"believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead"
Do you understand what that means? How could any documentation in the New Testament actually know what the thief believed in his heart at that moment?
There are so many other things you could decide to go after Christianity for, but this is not one of them.
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Scout Team [153]
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Re: You keep literally saying it.
May 9, 2019, 11:35 AM
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Ok excuse me....
If Adolf Hitler just believes in his heart on his death bed he inherits eternal life.
But a sweet little old Jewish woman who never hurt a fly dies believing Jesus was a false prophet she’s burns for eternity.
What else can I go after Christianity about that is more absurd than that?
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Legend [15492]
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Re: Certainly in Paul's writings, yes....
May 8, 2019, 7:40 PM
[ in reply to Certainly in Paul's writings, yes.... ] |
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I'm not sure who you're arguing against now.
I don't disagree that salvation through faith alone is a theme in the Bible. I believe in your original post you said something like "just professing" faith. That is different that actually HAVING faith.
James 2:14-26 New King James Version (NKJV) Faith Without Works Is Dead 14 What does it profit, my brethren, if someone says he has faith but does not have works? Can faith save him? 15 If a brother or sister is naked and destitute of daily food, 16 and one of you says to them, “Depart in peace, be warmed and filled,” but you do not give them the things which are needed for the body, what does it profit? 17 Thus also faith by itself, if it does not have works, is dead.
18 But someone will say, “You have faith, and I have works.” Show me your faith without [a]your works, and I will show you my faith by my works. 19 You believe that there is one God. You do well. Even the demons believe—and tremble! 20 But do you want to know, O foolish man, that faith without works is [c]dead? 21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered Isaac his son on the altar? 22 Do you see that faith was working together with his works, and by works faith was made [d]perfect? 23 And the Scripture was fulfilled which says, “Abraham believed God, and it was [e]accounted to him for righteousness.” And he was called the friend of God. 24 You see then that a man is justified by works, and not by faith only.
25 Likewise, was not Rahab the harlot also justified by works when she received the messengers and sent them out another way?
26 For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.
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Orange Blooded [4976]
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Re: If you do, you have a weird way of showing it....
May 9, 2019, 10:58 PM
[ in reply to Re: If you do, you have a weird way of showing it.... ] |
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There were four other person's crucified on the hill with Christ. Two on each side. You have to read more than just the Bible. It's also important not assume things. The Gospels harmonize completely. If you have a genuine interest, there are hundreds, if not thousands of commentaries on the Bible that refer to other writings by ancient, early Christians and secular historians.
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Orange Blooded [4976]
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Re: A few points (I'm not sure why)....
May 9, 2019, 10:50 PM
[ in reply to Re: A few points (I'm not sure why).... ] |
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Its what happens in the heart and mind that allows one to make a genuine profession. It's bit just opening one's mouth and speaking words.
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All-In [29036]
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For me, it's simple.
May 8, 2019, 1:48 PM
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1) I believe all humans are sinners in need of forgiveness through belief in Christ and His atonement for sin.
2) Sin is sin regardless of the "weight" or "badness" it is seen as in this world.
I imagine you disagree with one or both of those points. That's fine. You may mock me for it, and I understand, that doesn't hurt my feelings one whit.
But once that has been explained, I'd hope it clear that if I truly believe those 2 things then it would be logical that ANY genuine repentance and call of belief to Christ for forgiveness results in the same pardoning of sin.
I don't draw a line as to what sins my God can or can't forgive.
I fully recognize that may not seem "fair" to folks who don't hold to points 1 & 2 above and I respect that.
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Scout Team [153]
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Re: For me, it's simple.
May 8, 2019, 3:41 PM
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#2 is illogical. There are clearly things that are worse than others.
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All-In [31907]
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To you or to God?***
May 8, 2019, 4:11 PM
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Scout Team [153]
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Re: To you or to God?***
May 8, 2019, 4:27 PM
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Me. I can clearly see that killing a man is worse than getting angry with him. Physically ###### a woman is worse than checking out her butt as she walks by.
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All-In [31907]
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ok...certainly by societal norms I agree with you...
May 8, 2019, 5:11 PM
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and our laws should be structured as such.
But the question here is sin and how God views it...not how we view it in our society.
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Legend [17918]
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The Bible is a portrait of the many facets of God
May 8, 2019, 10:09 PM
[ in reply to Re: To you or to God?*** ] |
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not a man's thinking about what is right or wrong, and the varying degrees that fall within his thinking.
Jesus says: "“You have heard that the ancients were told, ‘YOU SHALL NOT COMMIT MURDER’ and ‘Whoever commits murder shall be liable to the court.’ But I say to you that everyone who is angry with his brother shall be guilty before the court..."
You might think murder is "worse" but God says even anger in the heart is guilty of murder... or even adultery when you look with lust. [Matthew 5]
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Scout Team [153]
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Re: The Bible is a portrait of the many facets of God
May 9, 2019, 7:51 AM
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Ok....but again does lusting after a woman mean you deserve eternal damnation? Does that make sense to you?
I bet you think sharia law is unjust. Cutting off a man's hand for stealing, death for criticizing the Quran, etc...
These things pale in comparison to a god punishing people for eternity, yet you are ok with that?
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Legend [17918]
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Let me ask you a question
May 9, 2019, 11:10 AM
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Why does God love you?
BTW - people don't get sentenced to eternal damnation for lusting after a woman. You state this like that, or any other sin, only occurs in people after they are born, grow old enough to have "passions" that generate those kinds of thoughts and the actions that follow them. NOT SO.
People are born ALREADY cursed by sin.
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Scout Team [153]
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Re: Let me ask you a question
May 9, 2019, 11:39 AM
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You’re side stepping the issue here like everybody else.
The punishment of eternal damnation fits no crime. There’s nothing anybody could ever do that would deserve that.
A god who would allow someone to do that is beyond evil.
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Legend [17918]
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Re: Let me ask you a question
May 9, 2019, 1:10 PM
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And you are fully missing the point. I have not "side-stepped" anything. You act like doing something [now] is what determines eternal punishment. IT DOES NOT. What does determine eternal punishment happened in the Garden of Eden - you inherited the curse - and the punishment that goes with it. Yeah - your Daddy did it to you.
Also, if the crime is [BAD] enough for Jesus to DIE on the cross to save you from having to face the punishment yourself...well...walk away from that grace if you like but, there is nothing you can do to merit God's grace and salvation apart from Jesus. That is the issue you are Side-Stepping.
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Scout Team [153]
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Re: Let me ask you a question
May 9, 2019, 1:44 PM
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I think you and the others in this thread just refuse to even think about the implications of what you believe.
Because ONE single individual at the beginning of time chose to eat from a certain tree, billions of human beings have been and will be sentenced to eternal damnation?
Maybe some of them never would have eaten from that tree. Have you ever thought about that? I can't imagine anyone walking and talking with the almighty creator of the universe in a perfect place screwing that up.
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Legend [17918]
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Re: Let me ask you a question
May 9, 2019, 2:46 PM
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You said: "I can't imagine anyone walking and talking with the almighty creator of the universe in a perfect place screwing that up."
Why can't you imagine someone screwing that up? People screw up the best thing(s) they have in life still today. All they needed then was the same thing they need now - just a little convincing they have it all wrong. What they understand about the situation, that is. With Adam and eve, what death was. But, how could they know? They had never seen death before; never a sparrow fall to the ground, not a parent laid to rest....certainly not a child. Not yet, anyway. They didn't know because they didn't have any [experience] with it. The same reason people screw up today - they haven't learned by heir experience until they actually have it.
Someone once said: A wise man learns from others mistakes, an ordinary man learns from his own, but a fool never learns.
God did not build robots. He did give us free will. Just because HE knows the consequence of a certain action, and gives instruction not to do something, does not indicate He is a mean and spiteful God. What it truly reflects is that He prefers we not have to learn from the consequence that comes. For example, "Don't eat from the [tree] or you will die."
Now, for us today living with the result of that bad decision, God says, "There is only one tree of life that will save you." But, the adversary says, "Look at all these trees and how wonderful the fruit they give. Surely, God doesn't mean you can't find your life by eating from another tree."
Well, that is exactly what God says and it is exactly what God means.
There was ONLY [one] thing in the Garden of Eden we could not have if we wanted to keep life as it was. Now, God says there is ONLY one thing we can have to get that life back. And guess what? You get to make the choice for yourself.... just like they did.
And that answers your charge: "But what about those who would not have chosen wrongly?" How does it feel now knowing you can choose for yourself?
One last thing, have you (and the others in this thread) thought about the implications of what you don't believe and how it will impact your choice?
Message was edited by: HuntClub®
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All-In [29036]
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Certainly, I agree
May 8, 2019, 6:20 PM
[ in reply to Re: For me, it's simple. ] |
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Of course some things are worse than other things. But any sin separates us from God and requires forgiveness and Grace to be in his presence. The step to receiving that is salvation through belief in the sacrifice of Christ.
Not simply uttering words. Not living piously. Nothing flippant or passing.
But actual genuine belief.
Again, we may disagree on our convictions on this, and I'm fine with that.
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Scout Team [153]
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Re: Certainly, I agree
May 9, 2019, 7:43 AM
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The point is that sin sending people to be tortured for eternity makes zero sense. It is unfathomable. Why would you accept that? The worse person that has ever lived doesn't deserve that.
And to make it worse, the Bible actually teaches that god created these people specifically to reject him and be destroyed to show his power. Most christians don't know that. They've been taught a more acceptable, sugar coated version.
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Legend [15492]
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Re: Serious question for the bored Christians
May 8, 2019, 1:48 PM
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I always found it interesting that most Evangelical's believe in a 'faith alone' doctrine "solo fide". They also believe in 'sola scriptura' or 'scripture alone'.
Yet neither doctrine is found in scripture.
Paul said clearly that "...faith without works is dead."
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All-In [31907]
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Paul did not say that...believe it was James***
May 8, 2019, 1:59 PM
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All-In [48078]
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Re: Paul did not say that...believe it was James***
May 8, 2019, 2:50 PM
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Or maybe neither one of them really said it.
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Legend [15492]
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Oculus Spirit [93681]
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Actually, James wrote that, not Paul.
May 8, 2019, 2:28 PM
[ in reply to Re: Serious question for the bored Christians ] |
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I'm happy to explore this concept with you Felix since you referenced scripture instead of conjecture. At your leisure, sir.
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All-In [42197]
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To be fair...
May 8, 2019, 1:48 PM
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I'm not sure Osama had a lot of time to think it over.
Head shot!
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Legend [15216]
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I am a Christian
May 8, 2019, 2:30 PM
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and I can't imagine many Christians believe in the type of salvation you just described.
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Oculus Spirit [93681]
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The two thieves on the crosses next to The Lord...
May 8, 2019, 2:38 PM
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might come to mind when considering this subject.
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Legend [15216]
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Re: The two thieves on the crosses next to The Lord...
May 8, 2019, 2:49 PM
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You don't know the history of that guy's heart. Just like we don't really know the heart of Bin Laden or whoever. Just saying that simply saying a few words seems silly.
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Scout Team [153]
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Re: The two thieves on the crosses next to The Lord...
May 8, 2019, 3:43 PM
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The Bible clearly portrays the thief on the cross as receiving salvation by simply professing that Jesus is god.
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All-In [29036]
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Perhaps, that is one way to read it
May 8, 2019, 6:23 PM
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My reading would be subtly (but importantly) different.
I am of the conviction that his vocal assertion was symbolic of his genuine belief and that that belief is what brought him the Grace of salvation.
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Oculus Spirit [93681]
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Obviously.***
May 8, 2019, 8:08 PM
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Oculus Spirit [93681]
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Are do words reflections of the heart.
May 8, 2019, 7:50 PM
[ in reply to Re: The two thieves on the crosses next to The Lord... ] |
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Have you not heard, a dying man's last words are admissible as evidence in our courts. Please review the following article.
http://www.cnn.com/2011/CRIME/02/28/us.scotus.dying.statements/index.html
Further, please review the following from the Gospel according to Luke.
" 39 And one of the malefactors which were hanged railed on him, saying, If thou be Christ, save thyself and us.
40 But the other answering rebuked him, saying, Dost not thou fear God, seeing thou art in the same condemnation?
41 And we indeed justly; for we receive the due reward of our deeds: but this man hath done nothing amiss.
42 And he said unto Jesus, Lord, remember me when thou comest into thy kingdom.
43 And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, Today shalt thou be with me in paradise."
I suggest you consider this passage. One confessed Christ while the other mocked Him. One was to enter paradise that very day. No baptism, no priest only him and The Lord.
It's a very personal thing. I'll deal with the OP later if he calms down a bit.
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Standout [345]
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Re: Serious question for the bored Christians
May 8, 2019, 6:49 PM
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Historically speaking, all versions of Christianity are just cult spin offs of the Catholic Church that eventually gain a large enough following to become “main stream” and ditch the cult label. Throughout history, every time someone doesn't like something, they start a new branch (or in the case of Baptists, just start a new church down the street) that preaches their version.
Some pf these gain enough of a following to continue, some don’t. In some cases, it is obvious why they broke off and in others not so much. Regardless, it makes it impossible to argue due to the literally endless points of view and the absurdity of it all is truly amazing to behold.
Mormonism is a nice modern example of how a religion forms and it amazes me that “regular” Christians can’t see how their own religion could have easily been formed the same way.
To each their own I guess and if it brings someone joy/peace let them have it as long as they aren’t forcing it on others.
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Oculus Spirit [93681]
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No Christian believes that.
May 9, 2019, 8:37 AM
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Here's what Christians believe. Romans 10:9-10 "That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved."
So no, you're misunderstanding the verse and how we Christians view it. It breeds some questions for you. You talk like you know something here so I will ask and expect honesty in your response.
Are you aware of the exact center of Christ's statement, '...the blind leading the blind...?'
When Christ came across the blind he restored their vision. He wasn't without compassion for the handicap according to the testimonies of witnesses of his day. He was talking about spiritual blindness. Those who are spiritually blind are so because of their pride.
The Holy Spirit comes to one's heart and convict and convinces him that he is sinful and needs a savior. A man repents, which means turn around, or his pride makes him able to resist often because he rationalizes that he isn't as bad as Hitler or those on your list. Maybe it's true and maybe it isn't.
Christ said that if I have hate in my heart I'm guilty of murder. Where does that leave those Westboro members or antifa? Where does it leave our politicians who incite hatred of those on the other side of the isle? Is any of their actions toward promoting hate any less than Charles Manson? Not according to the Christ who gave us the truth about the close relationship between hate and murder.
Adultery? Same thing. I know this is going to be real popular here. When King David saw Uriah's wife bathing on the rooftop and wanted her, he committed adultery. Why? Because the sin in in the heart. No man can determine what's in the heart of another. We can judge the actions of the body but not the actions of the heart.
"[9] That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved."
The mouth is flesh, the heart is spirit. A court judges our flesh, God judges our heart and our flesh. You can change the behavior of your flesh but only God can change the behavior of your heart. Since we have free will God needs your permission. All He can do right now is knock on the door and ask your permission to enter and made the change.
He stands and knocks, longing to help you. Would you then ever consider allowing Him to enter? That may all depends on how proud you are that you haven't sinned like Hitler or Manson.
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Oculus Spirit [93681]
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No comment?***
May 9, 2019, 3:19 PM
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Scout Team [153]
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Re: No comment?***
May 9, 2019, 4:06 PM
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You're also side stepping the issue here. Think about it this way....
During the Holocaust millions of Jews were slaughtered by Hitler. The world was horrified. I'm disgusted by it and so are you. Every decent human being is disgusted by it. But according to christianity, the terrible things Hitler did to those people was just a warm up for what the god of the bible is doing to them now and for eternity.
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Oculus Spirit [93681]
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The only two things God did for you was to create you...
May 9, 2019, 4:44 PM
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and take on a man's body then suffer a horrible death on the cross to let you know he loves you. Just like I said, your righteousness is established by your pride that you're better than Hitler. When God judges us he will put our sin on one side of the balance and Christ's sin on the other.
I predict without his blood washing your sin away you will not be found innocent. You could convert to Judaism and declare Levitical Law but I warn you, the circumcision isn't pleasant and the law is a stone around the neck.
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Scout Team [153]
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Re: The only two things God did for you was to create you...
May 9, 2019, 4:53 PM
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The apostle Paul in the book of Romans explains that God may actually have intentionally created beings who reject him in order to show his power. So maybe it would have been better for people who do not believe to never have been created at all, no?
What's your take on that passage?
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Oculus Spirit [93681]
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Was Paul speculating or stating fact?
May 10, 2019, 9:01 AM
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What do you know about that verse?
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Scout Team [153]
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Re: Was Paul speculating or stating fact?
May 10, 2019, 8:15 PM
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It reads like he’s speculating. But if it’s the divine word of God it was meant for him to say it so...
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Scout Team [153]
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Re: Was Paul speculating or stating fact?
May 11, 2019, 8:58 AM
[ in reply to Was Paul speculating or stating fact? ] |
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And what about 2 Corinthians 4:4?
The god of this age has blinded the minds of unbelievers, so that they cannot see the light of the gospel that displays the glory of Christ, who is the image of God.
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Oculus Spirit [93681]
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Oh you're right so we're back to the real question you...
May 11, 2019, 1:03 PM
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wanting me to answer. Ask it and stop beating around the bush or go ahead and impeach God's holiness so we can get it all out in the open.
Message was edited by: ClemsonTiger1988®
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