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Replies: 66
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Scout Team [177]
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Guess its not just Clemson fans who think our S&C is a joke
Apr 20, 2012, 2:52 PM
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this is from a board of bodybuilders who all are making a mockery of our S&C video that was just released. Not a single one of them thinks it is anything but a joke that Batson is paid $250K to be so terrible. Direct quote " Apparently Clemson's strength coach is paid 250k baseline salary. A trained monkey could have them do what they are doing"
This isn't Clemson fans who are "haters" these are actual bodybuilders and strength trainers who look at our program for the outside and laugh at it.
http://forum.bodybuilding.com/showthread.php?t=144149151&page=1
before someone says I screwed up in my topic title I couldn't put the ' in the it's due to having too many characters in my title
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All-TigerNet [14921]
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I know! I really wish our players were better at getting
Apr 20, 2012, 2:57 PM
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oiled up, slapping on some banana hammocks, and strutting around on a stage flexing.
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Scout Team [177]
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Re: I know! I really wish our players were better at getting
Apr 20, 2012, 2:58 PM
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hey moron these guys in that thread are strength coaches and trainers not bodybuilders. I know that's the name of the site but VERY few there are actual get on stage type bodybuilders
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All-TigerNet [14921]
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^^^wears banana hammocks^^^***
Apr 20, 2012, 3:00 PM
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Scout Team [177]
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Re: ^^^wears banana hammocks^^^***
Apr 20, 2012, 3:05 PM
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I wish I was in good enough shape to do so
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MVP [514]
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Re: Guess its not just Clemson fans who think our S&C is a joke
Apr 20, 2012, 2:58 PM
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I suggest that, if you have not already done so, go over and meet Coach Batson and his staff and let them give you a tour of the S&C program.
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Oculus Spirit [93730]
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If the critics are so well qualified,
Apr 20, 2012, 2:58 PM
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why are they not making 250K/year as a strength coach somewhere instead of running their mouths and watching youtube?
I'll hang up and listen.
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All-TigerNet [14921]
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This. Just another example of message board, Monday-
Apr 20, 2012, 3:01 PM
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morning, armchair QBs.
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Scout Team [177]
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Re: If the critics are so well qualified,
Apr 20, 2012, 3:02 PM
[ in reply to If the critics are so well qualified, ] |
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> why are they not making 250K/year as a strength coach
> somewhere instead of running their mouths and
> watching youtube?
>
> I'll hang up and listen.
So you are saying everyone who makes $250K is good at what they do? yeah if you think that I'm not going to value anything you have to say. Many of these guys do get paid as strength trainers. Might want to bring something more to the table if you are trying to detract. All of the guys in that thread have nothing to do with Clemson and are unbiased and it is unanimous that our program is lacking
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Scout Team [177]
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Re: If the critics are so well qualified,
Apr 20, 2012, 3:03 PM
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it's kinda funny...I'd be at 100% if I never posted about our S&C program. We'll continue to get physically owned by SoCar and continue to get pushed around until a change is made no matter how much $ we throw at coordinators.
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Orange Blooded [3257]
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coot program certainly appears to be "enhanced"***
Apr 21, 2012, 2:06 PM
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Orange Blooded [3881]
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Hall of Famer [21579]
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Thought it was $650,000.***
Apr 20, 2012, 3:32 PM
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Legend [18133]
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I thought it was $400k
Apr 20, 2012, 4:22 PM
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But I haven't been paying attention, really.
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All-TigerNet [10782]
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Oculus Spirit [93730]
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Re: If the critics are so...
Apr 21, 2012, 4:51 PM
[ in reply to Re: If the critics are so well qualified, ] |
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"So you are saying everyone who makes $250K is good at what they do?"
Stop being a fruit. What I said is "why are the not making 250K/ yr instead of running their mouths and watching youtube."
"yeah if you think that I'm not going to value anything you have to say."
You twisted my words into a moronic comment then insulted my intelligence. I really graduated from Clemson. I'm not a wannabe, here.
"All of the guys in that thread have nothing to do with Clemson and are unbiased and it is unanimous that our program is lacking"
Whether they have or have nothing to do with Clemson is not the issue. You, and they, might have provided some insight as to what they know about football. Elsewise, they are disqualified to provide valid comments. I mean our football players are training to play football not ballet.
You brought some comments from guys who post on a website criticizing my Head Coach for not firing my Strength and Conditioning Coach and you expect me say nothing?
Until you present your 'website wonders,' qualifications their comments are worthless and not worth addressing. Your willful ignorance is bringing embarrassment to the both of us.
I suspect if we have a problem with S&C Dabo will address it in his time.
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Commissioner [942]
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Re: If the critics are so well qualified,
Apr 20, 2012, 5:52 PM
[ in reply to If the critics are so well qualified, ] |
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Who care's how much Coach Batson is making? Facts are facts; it is what it is, and unfortunately has been for
a decade. And no one over there, with the possible exception of Venables, seems to have a clue. Especially not Dabo, who is so defensive and close-minded regarding the whole issue, he goes ballistic at even the mention of it. One example, Spenser Region has been here a year, and is allowed to be 40 lbs over his effective playing weight. Can anyone imagine this being permitted at Alabama? It's pathetic, and only going to get worse---as in this fall. These players are being let down bigtime.
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Orange Blooded [4854]
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Weird...
Apr 20, 2012, 3:10 PM
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I could swear that long lean muscle is more explosive and also gives more endurance.
So, bigger is better?
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Scout Team [177]
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Re: Weird...
Apr 20, 2012, 4:14 PM
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> I could swear that long lean muscle is more explosive
> and also gives more endurance.
>
> So, bigger is better?
Fast twitch muscle is bigger than slow twitch...look at how jacked most sprinters are.
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Scout Team [177]
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Re: Weird...
Apr 20, 2012, 4:15 PM
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to add lean muscle is just muscle...it isn't a type. People saying I've made 10 pound gain of lean muscle means they've gained muscle not fat. muscle types are fast twitch and slow twitch. Not lean muscle
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Orange Blooded [4854]
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Re: Weird...
Apr 20, 2012, 4:49 PM
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I know a person has to burn through the fast twitched (recovers quickly) to work the slow twitched. Isn't really about max weight lifting as much as repetition and not letting the fast twitched to recover. This is done by working a group of muscles by way of rotating a series of multiple types of lifts non stop. Going from: exercise #1>exercise #2> exercise #3. Repeat cycle and so forth, sometimes with no weight at all in the end, just the motion.
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CU Guru [1431]
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Re: Weird...
Apr 20, 2012, 5:03 PM
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You're getting energy supplies confused with muscle types.
Everyone is basically born with a unique ratio of fast twitch and slow twitch muscle fibers. That basic ratio doesn't really change in our life times. Now what we can change through training is how strong those muscle types are in our own bodies. For example, if you went out and ran 10 miles, you'd be training predominately your slow twitch muscles. If you did a bunch wind sprints, you'd be training fast twitch.
Where the confusion comes in is the energy systems that the two types of muscles use. Slow twitch muscle fibers break apart triglycerides and use them for energy while fast twitch muscles utilize ATP and glycogen as their primary energy source. Where most people get confused is the understanding that once your muscles use their stored ATP, they can only utilize their fast twitch muscle at rates which the body can re-synthesize ATP. This is the classic "bonk".
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Orange Blooded [4854]
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Re: Weird...
Apr 20, 2012, 5:34 PM
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Ok.
I've always know that sprints build thickness & distance is more slender.
There are breaks in those cycles I mentioned earlier to where a distance runner doesn't get that. I was a bit off in my explanation. Also, I believe that particular type work out that I was explaining is more for a body builder type of muscle than what we want our athletes to be. Correct?
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CU Guru [1431]
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Re: Weird...
Apr 20, 2012, 5:39 PM
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The type of workout you described is designed to work the cardio- vascular system (aerobically) while simultaneously working fast twitch muscle (anaerobically). Once fast twitch muscle is out of ATP (which it burns thru very quickly), it's basically out of energy. By rotating through different exercises, working different muscle groups, you are allowing those specific muscles to recover their ATP and glycogen stores, while keeping the heart rate high working the body's aerobic system.
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Orange Blooded [4854]
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Re: Weird...
Apr 20, 2012, 5:55 PM
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So, with the pace that we run at Clemson would this be in our favor vs walking around after on set of lifts?
I also believe things have been more of a mind set than strength. A lot of last year was youth more so than what has been the issue in the past.
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CU Guru [1431]
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Re: Weird...
Apr 20, 2012, 6:03 PM
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The simple answer is yes, that's better than just walking around after a set of lifts. But it also depends on what other work one is doing to train aerobically. That certainly isn't as good as running, cycling or other activities specifically designed to work the cardio-vascular system.
There's an old saying that "You fight like you train". I think it applies in this case...
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Orange Blooded [4854]
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Re: Weird...
Apr 20, 2012, 6:17 PM
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Right & I get the other cardio, was wondering from an explosion strength in general and the durability of certain areas.
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CU Guru [1431]
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Re: Weird...
Apr 20, 2012, 6:27 PM
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If you want to improve explosive strength, work explosive strength. Simply moving really quickly from one set of exercises to another doesn't train that. Durability maybe, but if you want players to be durable, develop muscles in such a way as they provide extra or improved support the skeletal and ligament system. The US ski team has been training that way for years due to the high probability of ACL injuries in that sport. For an example Google women ACL soft jumps.
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Orange Blooded [4854]
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Re: Weird...
Apr 20, 2012, 6:34 PM
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Alright & thanks for the discussion. You obviously know where my main question resides, as everything has been stated. Still, because all that we can't see; I will not pass judgement on our S&C Coach. I believe youth/implicating what will be us, is where we fell apart last year. Besides the injuries of course.
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Orange Blooded [3257]
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Re: Weird...
Apr 21, 2012, 2:12 PM
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Yep. This entire thread is WEIRD!
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CU Guru [1325]
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Not saying the S&C program couldn't add a few more
Apr 20, 2012, 3:19 PM
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elements to take it up another level, but I'm guessing 90% of people who get on here (or any other forum) bashing the program probably couldn't even do 10 simple curls with an easy weight like 30lbs with proper form, much less most of the stuff our guys are doing in the weight room (and the conditioning outside of the weight room as well). There's lots of stuff that the players are doing that the average fan doesn't see. They'll see a short clip like this though and find a few things that could be improved, then go to town bashing Batson and the S&C program. Does someone think only what they see in a 5 minute clip (or however long it is) is what the entire S&C program consists of? Give me a break.
I just get a feeling most of our fans bashing the S&C program don't workout much, much less to the level a D1 football player is required to. It's hypocritical. For those who never played at a high level or don't workout even moderately, just stay on your couch, eat your chips & wait for the season.
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Orange Blooded [3881]
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i see your point and agree with it but I don't think that
Apr 20, 2012, 3:25 PM
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those that are unhappy with the S&C base their opinion on that 5 minute video.
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CU Guru [1325]
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I know -- most probably want to see better form and more....
Apr 20, 2012, 3:38 PM
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explosion routines, etc (rather than just bulk/mass training like you see in this video).
The S&C program puts the guys through those kinds of alternative workouts though too. There's so much more that goes into off season conditioning than just what you'll see in a video like this, where it's just squats, bench, power cleans, etc.
The average message board fan just doesn't get it. They don't see all the other stuff that goes on behind the scenes. They complain even though they're uninformed. Many probably never played or conditioned at a high level.
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Rock Defender [54]
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Knowing what goes on our knowing what goes into
Apr 20, 2012, 3:42 PM
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weight training is inconsequential.
Most fans get their opinions from what they see on the field.
And what we've seen on the field for years, specifically on the offensive front, is a team that is either 1) manhandled 2)inconsistent or 3) injured.
Most of that lies on the S&C, although some could be blamed on OL coach.
I don't know. Just the perspective that "we don't know what goes on" seems rather moot. It's the results of what we see on Saturdays (and usually late in the season, when conditioning is even more important) that is the issue.
Read my post below. I'm not hating on anyone or calling anyone out. Just offering an alternative perspective.
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CU Guru [1325]
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I know you're not hating or flaming. You make legit points.***
Apr 20, 2012, 3:43 PM
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Rock Defender [54]
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Absolutely
Apr 20, 2012, 3:47 PM
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And I appreciate the cordial discussion.
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CU Guru [1305]
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point
Apr 20, 2012, 3:47 PM
[ in reply to Knowing what goes on our knowing what goes into ] |
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Obviously you can't judge S&C from a video but you can from lines getting beat, players not adding as much strength as on other teams over 4 years, injuries etc... I think it's a pretty mute point to just bash everyone criticizing that they don't work out like the players. When you are paying money to IPTAY you want to know you money is being used wisely in all aspects, who gives a s*** if you can't do as many squats as Vic Beesley. We all criticize coaches but can't coach to there level. When I buy a TV I want to buy the best quality but have know idea how to make one. By the way I do work out at least an hour every day alternating cardio and strength.
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Rock Defender [54]
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I see your point...
Apr 20, 2012, 3:34 PM
[ in reply to Not saying the S&C program couldn't add a few more ] |
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...but you don't have to know anything about weight training to know that the S&C program is responsible for preventing the crap we saw against Wofford, GT, NC State and South Carolina. When your offensive line is physically getting pushed back on every play (and you can see this on film; if you don't believe me - watch), what else do you point at?
I do find it odd (as many others do), that we are loaded to the brim with 4 and 5 star skill position players every year, but still get beat down the stretch when we face teams on a similar athletic level. Not all the time, but lots of times.
Take it for what you will. Not bashing anyone. I'm not in the arguing business. I get my information from my eyes. And my eyes tell me that we get manhandled upfront pretty often. Not all the time, but often enough for it to be a cause of concern.
I know there are folks around here who will cry wolf about every little thing, and there are folks who will NEVER criticize anything about the program. I fall somewhere in between. And the one common denominator to our lack of physicality has been S&C.
If you're that vehemently opposed to criticisms of S&C, I would HIGHLY recommend you go and watch last year's NC State game, or the 3rd and 4th quarters of the USC game. Heck, even the first half of the Wofford game. You may remember why these perspectives exist among ~half the fanbase.
No flame, no foul.
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CU Guru [1325]
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That could be some of it --- I also have to believe the NCST
Apr 20, 2012, 3:42 PM
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and GT debacles were also just flat out let-down games by our guys, mostly mentally. It's not NCST and GT were bigger, stronger and faster than us. They weren't and aren't.
Poor preparation --- heck even playing down to the level of competition if you want to call it that (Even though there's no excuse for ever doing that, especially when you're 8-0 like we were last year).
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Rock Defender [54]
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I can agree with the notion that NC State and GT
Apr 20, 2012, 3:46 PM
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weren't stronger or faster than us.
But who, besides Dabo (who we know is a great speaker and motivator), is responsible for building mental toughness? I would suggest that S&C is at least partially, if not mostly, responsible for it.
I read something about Alabama, and the gist of it was basically that their S&C program is designed to make their players angry, resentful, mad. It's every bit about building mental toughness as it is physical fitness. It's about working the players so hard to the point that they feel like they want to quit. Only they can't --- they just have to grind through it.
I agree that the mental aspect is huge. But who is responsible for preventing the lapses in mental toughness we've had for so many years?
S&C is the common denominator, although I'll admit that there are many factors involved.
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Commissioner [942]
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Re: Not saying the S&C program couldn't add a few more
Apr 20, 2012, 6:09 PM
[ in reply to Not saying the S&C program couldn't add a few more ] |
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A five minute clip??? This has been an obvious problem for years. Does one actually have to be a professional weightlifter in order to watch games and realize that Clemson's been getting knocked around on the line of scrimmage season after season? Let's not mention the poor tackling, inability to run block or slip off blocks, etc. Hello!!
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Die-Hard [8977]
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There's a big difference...
Apr 20, 2012, 3:29 PM
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in body builders and athletes. I'm really not interested in seeing Clemson football players stand around and pose in short shorts.
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Asst Coach [702]
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Re: Guess its not just Clemson fans who think our S&C is a joke
Apr 20, 2012, 3:50 PM
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SHUT UPPPPPPPP!!!! I'm so tired of hearing about our S and C program. There's a "search" function on this website. Use it. Guarantee everything you wanna argue about the S and C program is on there. Same song, different verse. BTW, bodybuilding.com forums are a VERY credible source for comparing knowledge. A trained, certified, 6 figure Strength coach definitely knows less about lifting than a 16 year old kid behind a keyboard taking 400 different mirror pics to go on bodyspace spending all his money on supplements that claim 405% gains in the first month in double blind studies......Sorry for the rant. And for the record, I'm not necessarily arguing for our strength program. Just look at what you said. Bodybuilding is NOT sport specific Strength and Conditioning. Hilarious comparison though. TU
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Rock Defender [54]
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What is this search function you speak of?***
Apr 20, 2012, 3:58 PM
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Starter [374]
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Re: Guess its not just Clemson fans who think our S&C is a joke
Apr 22, 2012, 1:52 PM
[ in reply to Re: Guess its not just Clemson fans who think our S&C is a joke ] |
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You really have no idea what you are talking about do you? You do realize some of the strongest people in the world use those powerlifting/strongman forums?
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CU Guru [1198]
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right and we all know
Apr 20, 2012, 3:53 PM
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Al Gore invented the internet so only experts could talk about something.
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Addict [415]
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Re: Guess its not just Clemson fans who think our S&C is a joke
Apr 20, 2012, 3:55 PM
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It's very simple. Anyone who can't see that usuck has a superior S&C program to ours is either blind or stupid. Dabo should be looking into fixing that, but he would rather pick fights with reporters over how "tough" his players are. Ask the wvu players how tough our guys were. Ask usuck's. It is absolutely killing me that even with all this talent coming in and these highly paid assistants we will still lose to the only team we should never lose to. And it doesn't have to be that way - if we instituted a s&c program equal to theirs, we'd start beating them again. Or at the very least, be competitive instead of getting blown out.
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CU Guru [1198]
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it's the same S&C under Bowden under beat USuCk lilke a drum***
Apr 20, 2012, 4:04 PM
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CU Guru [1431]
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Re: it's the same S&C under Bowden under beat USuCk lilke a drum***
Apr 20, 2012, 4:06 PM
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So obviously, they changed they were doing...
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CU Guru [1198]
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that's what the NCAA says too!***
Apr 20, 2012, 4:38 PM
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Rock Defender [54]
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CU Guru [1431]
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Re: That's not really a basis for judgement.
Apr 20, 2012, 4:09 PM
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“Improvise, Modify, Adapt, Overcome.”
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Scout Team [177]
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Re: it's the same S&C under Bowden under beat USuCk lilke a drum***
Apr 20, 2012, 4:22 PM
[ in reply to it's the same S&C under Bowden under beat USuCk lilke a drum*** ] |
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three years ago SoCar hired Fitzgerald before the off season...we all know what has happened these three years. We stayed the same...they fixed their problem. We see what staying the same and standing still got us. It isn't the talent gap that causes them to dominate us...it isn't the coaching (I'd take Morris 100% of the time over anyone that's ever stood on their sideline). We are flat physically dominated by them
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CU Guru [1198]
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Re: it's the same S&C under Bowden under beat USuCk lilke a drum***
Apr 20, 2012, 4:37 PM
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We'll see... it's obvious you are gey ... suolja
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Amateur [33]
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Posts: 72
Joined: 10/19/09
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Re: it's the same S&C under Bowden under beat USuCk lilke a drum***
Apr 21, 2012, 8:49 PM
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Great response, responding by calling someone "gey" doesn't contribute to the discussion.
I have a friend who plays offensive line for Wofford and his younger brother redshirted at Maryland last year and plays o-line too. I was hanging out with him over Christmas break and he was commenting on how our players seemed out of shape and lacking functional strength. I think he might know what he is talking about. The raise for Batson just made me shake my head.
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Commissioner [942]
TigerPulse: 40%
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Joined: 3/28/12
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Re: Guess its not just Clemson fans who think our S&C is a joke
Apr 20, 2012, 6:22 PM
[ in reply to Re: Guess its not just Clemson fans who think our S&C is a joke ] |
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Congratulations on hitting the nail squarely on the head.
And Dabo was right: People were talking about our defense after the Orange Bowl. A record-setting performance and perfect metaphor for our S&C program.
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110%er [6321]
TigerPulse: 100%
Posts: 5728
Joined: 11/2/08
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Not sure the "expert body builders"...
Apr 20, 2012, 4:15 PM
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are qualified to judge s&c for football. Their steroids help them out.....and if you look at some of their profiles, I have seen hs players that look more toned....and to take a picture in a bathroom to post on their profiles....well,,,,enough said. Also, notice that several of those experts are wvu and fsu fans.....
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110%er [6692]
TigerPulse: 100%
Posts: 11164
Joined: 10/14/07
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That site isn't for expert bodybuilders at all,
Apr 20, 2012, 5:57 PM
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anyone can get a username on it just like Tnet.
It's mostly 15 year old high school freshmen that want to know which supplement is gonna make them look bigger for the girls in English class.
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Starter [374]
TigerPulse: 76%
Posts: 344
Joined: 10/16/11
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110%er [6937]
TigerPulse: 88%
Posts: 22594
Joined: 5/4/03
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Re: We have to be out of our gourd to be paying that kind
Apr 20, 2012, 6:19 PM
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of money.
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Savant [470]
TigerPulse: 66%
Posts: 324
Joined: 10/13/02
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My mother, who knows nothing of football, commented...
Apr 21, 2012, 12:37 AM
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during the SCAR game last season that our players look like moderately muscular college kids while the coots looked like full grown monsters (boys vs men). Obviously, I agree. If my mother can see this, I don't know why the powers that be and many of the more sycophantic rah-rah types on here cannot.
We recruit from the same talent pool. We get some guys that they don't and vice versa, but we consistently out-recruit them based on average star rankings. Their current S&C grows them better. Period. It's really that simple. The eye test proves it, as do the weight gain metrics and most importantly the results. If you claim otherwise you are either blind, stupid, or dishonest. I feel bad saying that, but these are facts. Irrefutable.
The first step to improvement is admitting you have a problem. Batson may be the greatest guy in the world, but our unpredictable "headcase" years didn't start in earnest until Wade was moved out by West and Batson moved in. Obviously, we've had some coaching turnover during this time, but he is the common link.
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Orange Blooded [3257]
TigerPulse: 100%
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Joined: 7/27/99
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Same difference in appearance in baseball,
Apr 21, 2012, 2:15 PM
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WHAT COULD BE THE REASON? They have had steroiud problems in the past, haven't they? Just asking.
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Savant [470]
TigerPulse: 66%
Posts: 324
Joined: 10/13/02
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Anything's possible, but...
Apr 21, 2012, 4:27 PM
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I don't know that I would automatically assume that the reason we seem sporadically lethargic as a team and are routinely overpowered at the line of scrimmage is because our opponents are jacked up on juice. That seems like a huge leap and a bit too glib and convenient. It's equivalent to saying Wofford dominated the line of scrimmage because they were in possession of a bag of magic beans.
Normally, the simplest explanation is the right one. If players look softer (mentally AND physically), less explosive, and weaker, I'd say it's because they ARE softer (mentally AND physically), less explosive, and weaker. That comes from training - it's affected by the philosophy of the coordinator (Batson) and the mentality that he tries to instill. As further evidence, I'd say if a team's starting QB had developed Dunlap Disease by season's end something's amiss in conditioning or nutrition.*
SCAR's players have a gladiator mentality, and it shows in their workouts and on the field - they impose their will. If that were Spurrier's doing, he would be undefeated against us, but he's not. He did see a need, though, and made a good hire in S&C - that's the difference, and the rivalry hasn't been close since.
* Dunlap Disease - What happens when a person's belly "done lapped over his belt."
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Starter [374]
TigerPulse: 76%
Posts: 344
Joined: 10/16/11
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Re: Guess its not just Clemson fans who think our S&C is a joke
Apr 21, 2012, 4:10 PM
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I'm pretty sure very few of you know what you are talking about.
1. That forum is not for bodybuilding. It is one of the most read powerlifting/strongman forums in the world. Many of the strongest people in the world post there regularly to exchange ideas.
2. People are laughing at it because many people that just workout out as a hobby are much stronger than our football team.
Please try and argue with me on this.
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Freshman [0]
TigerPulse: 16%
Posts: 5
Joined: 4/13/12
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chromedoutdouchebag
Apr 21, 2012, 4:50 PM
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Better name for ya
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CU Guru [1929]
TigerPulse: 100%
Posts: 2173
Joined: 12/27/99
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Re: Guess its not just Clemson fans who think our S&C is a joke
Apr 22, 2012, 1:58 PM
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all of those bodybuilders love their steroids and their nuts shrink right along with their brains
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Starter [374]
TigerPulse: 76%
Posts: 344
Joined: 10/16/11
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Re: Guess its not just Clemson fans who think our S&C is a joke
Apr 22, 2012, 1:59 PM
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### are you talking about? bodybuilders?
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