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All-In [28802]
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Thanksgiving
Nov 20, 2012, 10:46 PM
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President Abraham Lincoln created the modern Thanksgiving Day tradition when he announced, in 1863, that the third Thursday of November would henceforth be celebrated as an official national holiday.
Lincoln unapologetically cited “the gracious gifts of the Most High God, who, while dealing with us in anger for our sins, hath nevertheless remembered mercy.” Long before that, President George Washington named Nov. 26, 1789 as a day of thanksgiving devoted to: “the service of that great and glorious Being who is the beneficent Author of all the good that was, that is, or that will be.”
Famously, God went unmentioned last year. Yet President Obama has made it a point in years past to direct thanks to God. “As we stand at the close of one year and look to the promise of the next, we lift up our hearts in gratitude to God for our many blessings, for one another, and for our Nation,” read his Thanksgiving Presidential Proclamation in 2010.
Regardless of whether God gets a shout-out this year, there’s certain to be controversy. Some will surely cite a “wall of separation between church and state” that doesn’t actually exist in the Constitution.
As Daniel Dreisbach explains in a First Principles essay, this figure of speech actually dates to a letter written by President Thomas Jefferson in 1802. In reality, the First Amendment didn’t aim to protect people from ever being exposed to any religion. It only aimed to ensure that the federal government wouldn’t establish a state-run church, such as the Church of England.
Dreisbach cites Jefferson’s second inaugural address, when the third president declared: “In matters of religion, I have considered that its free exercise is placed by the constitution independent of the powers of the general [i.e., federal] government. I have therefore undertaken, on no occasion, to prescribe the religious exercises suited to it; but have left them, as the constitution found them, under the direction and discipline of State or Church authorities acknowledged by the several religious societies.”
Although the First Amendment prevents Congress from establishing a religion or prohibiting its free exercise, presidents, as well as Congress, have always recognized the American regard for sacred practices and beliefs. Jefferson himself actively supported religious institutions. While in office, he personally approved federally funded programs that built churches and supported Christian missionaries who worked with the Indians.
This Thursday, instead of replaying our disappointments, let's focus on the great things about our exceptional nation. The American people are still self-governing citizens. Our Constitution is still the most successful constitution known to man. American churches continue to save souls and, along the way, save lives through good works, while Europe's state-supported churches struggle to fill its pews. That’s worth pausing to give thanks for– this week and every week.
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All-TigerNet [10171]
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Not everyone talks to a imaginary man in the sky***
Nov 20, 2012, 11:06 PM
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Fan [75]
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Re: Not everyone talks to a imaginary man in the sky***
Nov 21, 2012, 10:00 AM
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Perhaps you should at least consider it.
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Hall of Famer [24440]
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Legend [18310]
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Why are you trying to judge someone else? Why be so
Nov 21, 2012, 3:20 PM
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hateful to someone who does not believe in your God? Why not tolerate others who disagree with you? The Almighty (he/she/it) tolerates everyone, why not emulate Him, Her or It? Or would you love swing on a star?
Happy Thanks to you, tigerboy, and everyone else.
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Rock Defender [54]
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We need more understanding Geech. Understanding makes
Nov 21, 2012, 3:35 PM
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it possible for people like ourselves, to tolerate a person like yourself.
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Legend [18310]
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For a long time? Some dude keeps telling me he cannot
Nov 21, 2012, 3:51 PM
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tolerate me for long. I hope the three of us understand this. Don't you? Regards, Obed.
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110%er [9107]
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Abe Froman sends his regards.***
Nov 21, 2012, 3:53 PM
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Legend [18310]
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Re: Abe Froman sends his regards.***
Nov 21, 2012, 3:56 PM
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Is that Indian on the warpath again? 
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110%er [9107]
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The Sausage King of Chicago.***
Nov 21, 2012, 3:59 PM
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CU Medallion [56241]
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Abraham Lincoln aside...
Nov 20, 2012, 11:14 PM
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and barring all that other bull####, Thanksgiving is primarily celebrated as a secular holiday tracing its roots 150 years before the founding of the Unites States.
Can't we just be thankful and show gratitude for our lot without roping religion and disposable political platitudes into it?
Thanks.
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All-In [28802]
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what is a "secular holiday?"
Nov 20, 2012, 11:25 PM
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sounds like an oxymoron (one the Department of Redundancy Department wouldn't know anything about). Anyway, the first "thanksgiving" was almost certainly not secular as it was celebrated by theocratic Puritans and Pilgrims who came to the new world because of their separatist (Brownist) beliefs. Official religious feasts organized around "thanksgiving" were established a couple of years later.
And if you had been able to control your impulse to snark long enough to read the entire thing, you'd have realized the point wasn't to tell anybody who to give thanks to, but to offer guidance to those who would like to give thanks to God and to provide historical examples of public religious expression which has been (wrongly, in the author's view) proscribed today.
Message was edited by: camcgee®
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CU Medallion [56241]
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The 4th of July is a secular holiday.***
Nov 20, 2012, 11:32 PM
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Ring of Honor [32958]
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All-In [34126]
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Re: Thanksgiving
Nov 21, 2012, 7:12 AM
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OK, so let's start out by calling the author (whoever it was; there's no link) a liar.
The article says: Famously, God went unmentioned last year.
This is an idiotic lie about Obama. Idiotic because (a) that fact is not famous, and (b) it's not a fact. Obama did mention God last year.
To quote:
"As we gather in our communities and in our homes, around the table or near the hearth, we give thanks to each other and to God for the many kindnesses and comforts that grace our lives."
http://www.whitehouse.gov/the-press-office/2011/11/16/presidential-proclamation-thanksgiving-day-2011
As for the supposed controversy that is certain to occur this year: Anyone who thinks that Thanksgiving is controversial is doing it wrong. Spend time with your family and friends, and have some delicious food. Try not to worry too much about what other people think about the separation of church and state; you don't want to ruin your appetite.
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Ring of Honor [32958]
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All-In [34126]
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And American churches are state-supported, too.
Nov 21, 2012, 9:04 AM
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Their tax burden is "redistributed" onto the rest of us.
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All-In [28802]
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parse on, friends
Nov 21, 2012, 12:06 PM
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The points you make have almost nothing to do with the post. Frankly, I'm not really sure what your need to nitpick this is, as there's very little that's controversial. These are simple facts: our current conception of separation of church and state is historical, not necessarily directly related to the Constitution or to a principle the founders would've agreed on; European state sponsored churches are dying, while (even if attendance at some churches had dipped) American remains relatively religious; the non-taxation of churches is not "state support" or state sponsorship of churches, by any sane definition.
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All-In [28802]
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Ring of Honor [32958]
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Interesting concept of "famous", but at least you're not
Nov 21, 2012, 12:37 PM
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parsing.
And neither were those reporting he omitted God, even though, Obama mentioned God once in a closing "God bless you," to Americans watching the Internet address. However, the President explicitly thanked God earlier in the week in his written Thanksgiving proclamation...
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All-In [28802]
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Re: Interesting concept of "famous", but at least you're not
Nov 21, 2012, 12:46 PM
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That really isn't all that relevant to the post. The author even goes on to say that Obama has had plenty to say about God. At any rate, it was reported on, and was thus famous.
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Ring of Honor [32958]
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All-In [34126]
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Re: this is what he was talking about
Nov 21, 2012, 3:07 PM
[ in reply to this is what he was talking about ] |
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So, a) it was widely reported on and apparently (at least some people) remember that; b) it is a fact.
The "it" you're referring to is this sentence: "Famously, God went unmentioned last year."
"It," that sentence, is not a fact. It is a lie. God was mentioned last year, just not in an Internet address. Except wait, God was mentioned there as well.
Given how stupid that lie is, I hope you are just making up the fact that it was "widely reported on."
(And we're not even discussing the REAL truth, which is that it shouldn't matter in the first place whether Barry conjures up a diety's name in one of his speeches. I'd prefer he didn't, but I don't really care that he did. I also don't care that Mitt Romney, Newt Gingrich and Rick Santorum issued Thanksgiving statements that omitted any references to God. And since those three were Pubs, no one else cared, either. I bet their omissions of God were not widely reported on.)
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Ring of Honor [32958]
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It's on the interwebs, dude, of course it's famous.***
Nov 21, 2012, 3:12 PM
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Ring of Honor [32958]
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And factual.***
Nov 21, 2012, 3:13 PM
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Legend [18310]
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The American Indians celebrated the 1st Thanksgiving
Nov 21, 2012, 3:46 PM
[ in reply to Re: Thanksgiving ] |
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with the Colonists. Their God was quite different, they also quickly became bitter enemies. Is the moral: never have guests for Thanksgiving because you might end up as bitter enemies?
P&R threads are never far from some sort of religeous malarky.
I'm going to give it another go and hope we all remain friends this time.
Good post. Thanks.
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Rock Defender [54]
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I don't think Washington's words would be well received in
Nov 21, 2012, 8:19 AM
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any evangelical or Catholic church:
“the service of that great and glorious Being who is the beneficent Author of all the good that was, that is, or that will be.”
That sounds so generic it could be from Scientology.
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All-In [28802]
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it does...
Nov 21, 2012, 12:13 PM
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and it's one indication of the fact that the modern state cannot, and should not be misconstrued as, a church. Although democracies need civil religions, however much those civil religions may be influenced by Christianity, they are not Christianity.
But maybe we should also consider the fact that the Constitution was originally understood not to prevent public expression of religion or any state support of religion, but to guarantee religious freedom. If public expression of religion was not dangerous even for someone capable of such a bland statement about god as the one you quote (and for someone much closer to a world where the Christian West was violently divided), then why do we proscribe it?
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110%er [8142]
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Ring of Honor [32958]
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troll...***
Nov 21, 2012, 8:43 AM
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Rock Defender [54]
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Thanks Abe for another holiday for my family to show me
Nov 21, 2012, 8:47 AM
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just how crazy they actually are...because you know I couldn't get enough just at Christmas.
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Fan [75]
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Re: Thanksgiving
Nov 21, 2012, 10:02 AM
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Thanks for an insightful and respectful posting. Happy Thanksgiving all.
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All-TigerNet [10963]
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F*** Lincoln and the Hamiltonian Empire he built***
Nov 21, 2012, 12:16 PM
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110%er [9107]
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Dude did kill a buttload of vampires.***
Nov 21, 2012, 3:10 PM
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Ring of Honor [32958]
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That certainly shows some skill, but can he
Nov 21, 2012, 3:14 PM
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meet the production quotas required during a bonafide zombie apocalypse?
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