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Orange Blooded [4035]
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Just to be clear
May 8, 2016, 1:12 PM
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Many of you are ok with sucking this out with a vacuum type device and throwing away.
How can you justify that? How do you have any compassion for life at all if you are willing to terminate this pregnancy/birth.
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Oculus Spirit [83133]
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Just because you are pro-choice doesn't mean you are ok
May 8, 2016, 1:51 PM
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with abortion.
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Orange Blooded [4995]
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Re: Just because you are pro-choice doesn't mean you are ok***
May 8, 2016, 2:26 PM
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Rock Defender [54]
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Re: Just because you are pro-choice doesn't mean you are ok***
May 8, 2016, 3:36 PM
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Is there any sort of nuance to your thinking or is it all black and white?
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All-TigerNet [13605]
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Re: Just because you are pro-choice doesn't mean you are ok***
May 8, 2016, 3:50 PM
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It's all black and white, darealmvp.
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Orange Blooded [4995]
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Re: Just because you are pro-choice doesn't mean you are ok***
May 8, 2016, 5:02 PM
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The definition of pro choice is:
"advocating legalized abortion"
The word advocating means:
"publicly recommend or support"
So please explain to me how "publicly supporting legalized abortion" doesn't mean you are ok with abortion?
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Oculus Spirit [83133]
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No, pro-choice means you don't think the govt.
May 8, 2016, 5:16 PM
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has the right to decide whether someone can have one or not. I'm pro-choice but wish no woman would ever have one. That's not advocating or supporting them.
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Heisman Winner [112363]
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Excellent reply Joe. ******
May 8, 2016, 6:22 PM
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All-In [40938]
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This is exactly how I feel about it as well
May 9, 2016, 4:29 PM
[ in reply to No, pro-choice means you don't think the govt. ] |
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I am against abortion. I think it is taking a life. I believe that women should have the right to choose what is best for them as long as it is in the first trimester.
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All-TigerNet [13605]
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Re: Just because you are pro-choice doesn't mean you are ok***
May 8, 2016, 5:26 PM
[ in reply to Re: Just because you are pro-choice doesn't mean you are ok*** ] |
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Personally, I'm against abortion therefore I'll never have one.
But, I'm against making abotions illegal especially for the health of the mother. (I'm sure this is where you will try to start some argument, save it for someone else)
I also have no problem with waiting periods, education etc to potentially cut down on abortion but in the end, it's up to the woman. .
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Orange Blooded [4995]
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Oculus Spirit [83133]
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LOL. Yea, this is a simple issue, huh? Question: What should
May 8, 2016, 5:21 PM
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be the penalty for doctors/women if the govt. made them illegal?
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Orange Blooded [4995]
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Re: LOL. Yea, this is a simple issue, huh? Question: What should
May 8, 2016, 6:10 PM
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How bout we start by calling it what it is....murder....
What would be the penalty if I decided I didn't want my 2 year old and killed her?
What's the difference?
I understand that there are circumstances where the mothers life could be at stake and in only those circumstances should it be allowed....
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Oculus Spirit [83133]
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Do you believe in the death penalty? If you do, assuming you
May 8, 2016, 6:20 PM
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advocate the death penalty for women who have abortions and their doctors.
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Orange Blooded [4995]
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Re: Do you believe in the death penalty? If you do, assuming you
May 8, 2016, 6:32 PM
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I wouldn't go that far but at the same time it's not as outrageous as allowing the slaughtering of millions of unborn children every year....
This is the problem with society today. We've given up trying to educate and encourage our young people to live like they're supposed to and be responsible for their actions....
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All-In [34113]
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Re: Do you believe in the death penalty? If you do, assuming you
May 8, 2016, 11:07 PM
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I wouldn't go that far
The gray area begins to appear.
Why should the death penalty be appropriate for the murderer of a 2-year-old, but not for the murderer of a fetus?
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All-In [42197]
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You do know what will happen if it's illegal, right?
May 9, 2016, 9:49 AM
[ in reply to Re: Do you believe in the death penalty? If you do, assuming you ] |
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People aren't going to stop having abortions because it's illegal. Same with how they don't stop using drugs.
I don't like abortion either, but making it illegal ain't helping.
How about we start pushing for better sex ed and availability of contraceptives? You know, something other than the abstinence-only crap conservative Christians want to push? If we hate abortion, let's work to improve the situation so there are fewer unwanted pregnancies.
If only there were some organization out there that wants to provide cheap birth control to women without having conservatives trying to shut it down...
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Orange Blooded [2574]
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You do know what will happen if it's illegal, right?
May 9, 2016, 1:01 PM
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People aren't going to stop buying guns because it's illegal. Same with how they don't stop using drugs.
....
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Orange Blooded [4995]
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Re: You do know what will happen if it's illegal, right?
May 9, 2016, 2:00 PM
[ in reply to You do know what will happen if it's illegal, right? ] |
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"People aren't going to stop having abortions because it's illegal. Same with how they don't stop using drugs."
It's really shocking to me that you could type that and actually hit the send button.....
Let's just make burglary legal as well since there were millions of those last year.....
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All-In [42197]
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I can hit send because I know what used to happen.
May 9, 2016, 2:38 PM
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Abortions were carried out illegally and in very unsafe conditions before it was legalized. If we make them illegal, they will continue regardless.
Let's instead work towards preventing unwanted pregnancies.
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Orange Blooded [4995]
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Re: I can hit send because I know what used to happen.
May 9, 2016, 2:42 PM
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I think it would be much easier to just make murder illegal than trying to stop a couple teenagers from having sex.....if you want to risk your life because you made a mistake and don't have the character to own up to it than have at it...
Sex education is taught in school to every single child that is born and raised in this country....
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Rock Defender [54]
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Re: I can hit send because I know what used to happen.
May 9, 2016, 2:46 PM
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I don't think you are going to find anyone on here who thinks abortion should be used as a form of birth control since that is what you are insinuating.
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All-In [42197]
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Re: I can hit send because I know what used to happen.
May 9, 2016, 2:47 PM
[ in reply to Re: I can hit send because I know what used to happen. ] |
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Sex ed is taught, and the good news is that teen pregnancies are declining. But in some areas, states still stick to the failed abstinence-only model (conservative Christian model) and birth control is not made readily available. Some people even fight to prevent birth control from being accessible.
Let's recognize that kids are kids and always weigh reward over risk. Let's make it less likely anyone will ever need an abortion.
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All-In [26968]
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The only good thing I can think of about the abstinence
May 9, 2016, 3:37 PM
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method is that it's worked every time. Other than that, crappy idea.
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Rock Defender [54]
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Re: The only good thing I can think of about the abstinence
May 9, 2016, 3:45 PM
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60% of the time it works every time!
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All-TigerNet [13605]
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Re: I can hit send because I know what used to happen.
May 9, 2016, 5:25 PM
[ in reply to Re: I can hit send because I know what used to happen. ] |
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Reminds me of the character or lack of of certain people here talking God one minute and the next making threats and calling people hoodrats.
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Oculus Spirit [81925]
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Oculus Spirit [81078]
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Orange Blooded [4995]
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Re: JHop..do YOU believe in the death penalty?***
May 9, 2016, 2:16 PM
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In certain situations yes.....
Let's say abortion is illegal and a doctor is found to have performed one....
He should banned for life from practicing and he should serve serious time for it....I don't think he should get the death penalty.
That will cause a trickle effect all the way down to the moment that a young girl is in the back seat with her boyfriend deciding whether she should have sex with him or not.....
Common sense but we don't use that in America anymore....we teach our kids that they don't have to be responsible for their actions....
And no dafakemvp I'm not saying that will stop everyone from having premarital sex...
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All-In [42197]
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Rape and incest babies, too?***
May 9, 2016, 2:50 PM
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Starter [356]
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Re: JHop..do YOU believe in the death penalty?***
May 9, 2016, 2:54 PM
[ in reply to Re: JHop..do YOU believe in the death penalty?*** ] |
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I can't believe I am going to participate in this thread, but I don't understand...
How does this work?
> > That will cause a trickle effect all the way down to > the moment that a young girl is in the back seat with > her boyfriend deciding whether she should have sex > with him or not..... >
Why would a young girl care about a doctor going to jail or not for something that is not even certain to happen no matter where the boyfriend drops his load?
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All-In [42197]
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Yeah, no kidding.
May 9, 2016, 3:06 PM
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I'm not sure JHop knows quite how the teenage mind works.
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Orange Blooded [4995]
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Re: JHop..do YOU believe in the death penalty?***
May 9, 2016, 3:35 PM
[ in reply to Re: JHop..do YOU believe in the death penalty?*** ] |
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I didn't say the girl would think about the doctor going to jail....didn't say that all.....I knew that would fly over some heads.
You don't think that people knowing that abortion is illegal and that if they get pregnant they are either going to have to deal with it or risk their life having an unsafe abortion would cause them to be more safe having sex?
Let's just make it a serious crime and that will be pretty good sex education itself don't you think?
No you can't punish people in society today....you have to educate them....
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Starter [356]
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Re: JHop..do YOU believe in the death penalty?***
May 9, 2016, 3:41 PM
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Oh, I'm sorry. I'll quote the whole thing, because you certainly did.
> In certain situations yes..... > > Let's say abortion is illegal and a doctor is found > to have performed one.... > > He should banned for life from practicing and he > should serve serious time for it....I don't think he > should get the death penalty. > > That will cause a trickle effect all the way down to > the moment that a young girl is in the back seat with > her boyfriend deciding whether she should have sex > with him or not..... > > Common sense but we don't use that in America > anymore....we teach our kids that they don't have to > be responsible for their actions.... > > And no dafakemvp I'm not saying that will stop > everyone from having premarital sex...
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Orange Blooded [4995]
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Re: JHop..do YOU believe in the death penalty?***
May 9, 2016, 3:45 PM
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Do you know what the term "trickle effect" means?
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Rock Defender [54]
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Re: JHop..do YOU believe in the death penalty?***
May 9, 2016, 3:46 PM
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You probably believe in trick down economics too yeah?
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All-In [42197]
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Starter [356]
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Re: JHop..do YOU believe in the death penalty?***
May 9, 2016, 4:02 PM
[ in reply to Re: JHop..do YOU believe in the death penalty?*** ] |
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Well, in this case, trickle down means that by punishing a doctor, a doctor won't engage in abortions, and that somehow influence a teenage girl into not having unprotected sex because a doctor will be punished.
You know, exactly what I said 2 posts ago....
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All-In [42197]
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I would strongly recommend
May 9, 2016, 3:49 PM
[ in reply to Re: JHop..do YOU believe in the death penalty?*** ] |
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You read the article National Geographic did a few years ago on the teenage mind. The major difference between us and them is that we adults weigh the risk before we weigh the reward with our decisions. For teenagers, it's the opposite.
That's cool because they will try fun things that we won't. But it's bad because they don't think about the consequences. Which is why so many teens get caught doing stupid things.
So their own brains are hardwired to not think about the risks of sex before the actual enjoyment of it.
But make abortion a serious crime? You mean like it was before? Yeah, that stopped it. Just like it stops everyone from committing other crimes.
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All-In [38925]
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CU Medallion [54758]
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All-In [26968]
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Nothing but a cop-out.
May 9, 2016, 7:33 AM
[ in reply to Just because you are pro-choice doesn't mean you are ok ] |
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Just something to say so you can claim both sides of the fence.
You either think the unborn child is a child, or you don't. If you don't, then you are OK with its killing because it is not an actual child. There's no reason to say "you wish they wouldn't do it". Do you wish I wouldn't paint my living room blue? Why should you care?
If you do think the unborn child is an actual human child, then you are just plain OK with killing a child if the other person wants to.
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All-In [26968]
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Sorry, got upset there. Calmer, serious question...
May 9, 2016, 7:37 AM
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Why do you wish no woman would do it?
(It's hard for me to comprehend an answer to this question that wouldn't also mean the government should disallow it.)
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CU Medallion [54758]
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I'll butt in. It's Pro-CHOICE, NOT Pro-fetus-murder
May 9, 2016, 8:14 AM
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I'm pro-choice, however, I'd never make that choice. Same for SheGUAR.
But I also think that that choice should solely be left to the parent(s).
...and that's probably just a re-hash of the post(s) above, soooo
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All-In [26968]
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Why would you never do it?***
May 9, 2016, 9:08 AM
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CU Medallion [54758]
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don't really know if I have an answer
May 9, 2016, 9:27 AM
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Prior to having my own kids, I probably would've done it in certain scenarios & reasons. NOW, those same scenarios & reasons wouldn't be sufficient...but that's for ME & MY fam. My views & opinions on Pro-life/choice, what a fetus is, etc hasn't changed.
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All-In [42197]
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It should also be noted...
May 9, 2016, 9:52 AM
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That a lot of ardent pro-life folks have quite a change of heart when their young daughter gets pregnant.
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Rock Defender [54]
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Re: Sorry, got upset there. Calmer, serious question...
May 9, 2016, 9:57 AM
[ in reply to Sorry, got upset there. Calmer, serious question... ] |
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> Why do you wish no woman would do it?
Because it's a crappy situation to be in for everyone involved. It's called empathy.
> (It's hard for me to comprehend an answer to this question that wouldn't also mean the government should disallow it.)
Well for one, making it illegal will not stop abortions as we have seen in the past. Instead of getting the procedure done (however you may feel about that) safely in a medical environment, women will now have to either find shady doctors or other means to do this which will result in harm and/or death for the mother.
I don't see how making it illegal makes the situation any better; it arguably makes it worse (puts the woman in danger and makes both her and the doctors criminals). I am also against abortion in all but the most extreme cases. I am pro-choice because I don't feel that it is my place to tell someone else what an "extreme" case is or where the line should be drawn.
I'd be curious to hear what you think the punishment should be for these women/doctors.
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All-In [26968]
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Re: Sorry, got upset there. Calmer, serious question...
May 9, 2016, 11:37 AM
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"Because it's a crappy situation to be in for everyone involved."
Especially for the one being killed.
As for the rest of your post, killing five-year olds would also be safer (for the one doing the killing) and cleaner if made legal and done in a medical environment. Does that mean we should legalize that, too? People are going to kill anyway...might as well make it cleaner.
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Rock Defender [54]
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Re: Sorry, got upset there. Calmer, serious question...
May 9, 2016, 12:57 PM
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It's pretty clear that you have a hard time talking about this without getting emotional but let's point out some facts really quick.
1. We both would like for there to be as few abortions as possible right? (ideally zero).
2. Abortion was illegal before but it did not stop them from happening. In fact it also killed many more mothers in the process. So, making it illegal is simply not the solution (if the goal is to prevent abortions). If it's just a feel-good policy that you want passed well then to each their own.
3. Sex education, specifically on the topic of contraception/procreation actually works and helps prevent many unwanted pregnancies. If you actually want to make a real difference, let's focus on prevention instead of punishment. This goes for a lot of things actually...
I know this is hard for people to understand but simply making thing you don't like illegal does not make them magically disappear.
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Orange Blooded [4995]
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Re: Sorry, got upset there. Calmer, serious question...
May 9, 2016, 2:04 PM
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Nobody said it was going to disappear.....you go way to the extreme with stuff just to argue....
There's not a crime out there that has disappeared because it was a crime....doesn't mean we should make it legal....it shocks me that I actually have to say these things to people who are supposedly adults.
This isn't about punishment either....I don't know what the punishment for a 20 year old girl that gets an abortion should be....but we could easily make it to where she can't just pick up the phone and make an appointment to get it done....
I realize there are circumstances where the mother's life may be in danger and then and only then should it be ok to have an abortion.
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Rock Defender [54]
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Re: Sorry, got upset there. Calmer, serious question...
May 9, 2016, 2:30 PM
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> Nobody said it was going to disappear.....you go way to the extreme with stuff just to argue....
Hi pot, meet kettle.
> There's not a crime out there that has disappeared because it was a crime....doesn't mean we should make it legal....it shocks me that I actually have to say these things to people who are supposedly adults.
You know it is possible to consider things on a case-by-case basis right? This isn't as clear as someone shoplifting.
What you are saying is you don't really care about the outcome but just that it's illegal and people are punished for something you disagree with. If you really care, are you just as adamant about preventative laws are you are punitive?
As I said before, study after study shows sex education works. Instead of locking people up, let's use the same money to prevent it from happening in the first place. But you don't hear the pro-lifers say much about that.
Making it illegal doesn't really solve anything in this case; preventative measures can and do.
> This isn't about punishment either....I don't know what the punishment for a 20 year old girl that gets an abortion should be....but we could easily make it to where she can't just pick up the phone and make an appointment to get it done....
Again, I don't think that's your call to make.
> I realize there are circumstances where the mother's life may be in danger and then and only then should it be ok to have an abortion.
We have a similiar view here, my only problem with this statment is what the exact circumstances are. Can you clearly define them? Even if you could, is it up to you to make that choice?
I'm not advocating for late-term abortions or abortions in general. I'm simply saying I do not have the right to make that choice for other people in ambiguous cases.
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Orange Blooded [4995]
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Re: Sorry, got upset there. Calmer, serious question...
May 9, 2016, 3:00 PM
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And how exactly would you prevent two people that aren't responsible enough to raise a child from having unprotected sex?
Lol....condoms are 75 cents in every convenient store bathroom in America and every single person that is born and raised in this country is taught sex education in school....so what exactly are you going to "educate" people on that they don't already know?
You're delusional....it's not up to anybody whether or not another human being gets to experience life or not and there are consequences for your actions. Instead of blaming the person that goes out and gets knocked up you point the finger at the government and everybody else for not properly educating them?????
This is what is wrong with this country....
It's everybody else's fault....
Man robs a store, attacks a cop and reaches for his gun and it's the police officers fault for shooting him.....that's the world we live in.....
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Rock Defender [54]
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Re: Sorry, got upset there. Calmer, serious question...
May 9, 2016, 3:19 PM
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> And how exactly would you prevent two people that aren't responsible enough to raise a child from having unprotected sex?
Well sex education does help curb this. Are you saying making abortion legal would prevent this? No, it will not.
> Lol....condoms are 75 cents in every convenient store bathroom in America and every single person that is born and raised in this country is taught sex education in school....so what exactly are you going to "educate" people on that they don't already know?
You'd be shocked at what some middle/high-schoolers and even some adults believe. If you think this is all common knowledge you'd be wrong.
> You're delusional....it's not up to anybody whether or not another human being gets to experience life or not and there are consequences for your actions. Instead of blaming the person that goes out and gets knocked up you point the finger at the government and everybody else for not properly educating them?????
I'm delusional for thinking we should try to prevent instead of punish especially when we've tried both and preventing works better?
You say you are pro-life but you don't seem to give a #### about the mother's well-being.
> Man robs a store, attacks a cop and reaches for his gun and it's the police officers fault for shooting him.....that's the world we live in.....
Totally different subject but nice straw-man.
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Orange Blooded [4995]
TigerPulse: 59%
Posts: 8298
Joined: 10/8/08
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Re: Sorry, got upset there. Calmer, serious question...
May 9, 2016, 3:44 PM
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I've already clearly said that under circumstances where the mothers life is at stake it should be allowed....that's what I'm talking about you going to the extreme with the minority of situations....
This isn't about that....this is about a woman being able to pick up the phone and schedule an appointment to get rid of the life inside her like she's scheduling a teeth cleaning....
If you can't understand that that should not ever be legal then there's no use in continuing this conversation....
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Rock Defender [54]
TigerPulse: 90%
Posts: 35
Joined: 11/30/98
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Re: Sorry, got upset there. Calmer, serious question...
May 9, 2016, 3:47 PM
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> If you can't understand that that should not ever be legal then there's no use in continuing this conversation....
That's fine with me.
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All-In [26968]
TigerPulse: 96%
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Joined: 7/6/10
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Just because I think something should be illegal
May 9, 2016, 3:31 PM
[ in reply to Re: Sorry, got upset there. Calmer, serious question... ] |
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Doesn't mean I think that is the only means of prevention. I have never once argued against any of the preventive measures you are talking about.
Also, I have never "focused on punishment".
Let's start by taking our seal of approval off of the killing of children. Then let's go from there.
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All-In [26968]
TigerPulse: 96%
Posts: 44823
Joined: 7/6/10
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Wait, let me also say...
May 9, 2016, 11:46 AM
[ in reply to Re: Sorry, got upset there. Calmer, serious question... ] |
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You answer..."it's a crappy situation..." doesn't answer the question. The hypothetical woman is already in "the situation". Why, then, would you wish they wouldn't go through with it? Whether they go through it or not doesn't affect whether or not they are in the "situation".
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Rock Defender [54]
TigerPulse: 90%
Posts: 35
Joined: 11/30/98
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Re: Wait, let me also say...
May 9, 2016, 12:58 PM
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You really don't see the difference between having and not having to carry your rapists child to full term? If not, then we can just stop and agree to disagree here.
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All-In [26968]
TigerPulse: 96%
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Joined: 7/6/10
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Well, forgive me for not knowing that's what you were
May 9, 2016, 3:26 PM
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referring to, since that aspect had not come close to being mentioned in the thread. Can't read your mind! Heh.
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Oculus Spirit [81078]
TigerPulse: 100%
Posts: 56152
Joined: 9/13/04
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I still find it ironic that you detest abortion, but are OK
May 9, 2016, 12:59 PM
[ in reply to Nothing but a cop-out. ] |
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with the death penalty. Which, as you would never answer, may or may not include those who perform the abortion, which in your mind is murder.
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All-In [28802]
TigerPulse: 100%
Posts: 58393
Joined: 11/14/03
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Yeah, it's not the most logical position
May 10, 2016, 12:13 AM
[ in reply to Nothing but a cop-out. ] |
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But it's the small "c" conservative position. People see it as too big a change, and too upsetting to some people, so they'd rather hold onto their moral reservations while not joining a movement that makes them look more committed than they are.
Really, though, a "pro-choicer" who think there should be any limits on abortion at all is closer to the pro-life position than they are to actual pro-choice politics. In real life, pro-lifers fight for small limits on abortion, because they can't ban it. Pro-choicer oppose any policies that would make it any more difficult to get an abortion, including policies that are popular here and closer to the policies that most countries have. Even overturning Roe v. Wade wouldn't mean a nationwide ban on abortion, it would just allow states where the people want to ban it to ban it.
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Heisman Winner [111711]
TigerPulse: 100%
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Joined: 9/10/03
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Re: Just to be clear
May 8, 2016, 9:50 PM
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There are web forums that are not here you can dicuss this. I dont care where.
Tia
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Orange Blooded [3921]
TigerPulse: 100%
Posts: 4631
Joined: 7/11/03
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you mean people talk about this subject? for reals?
May 9, 2016, 8:47 AM
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do people take sides? this could be a hot button issue? whodathunkit?
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All-In [46825]
TigerPulse: 100%
Posts: 30733
Joined: 8/11/15
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The two sides really aren't as far off as it seems
May 9, 2016, 10:02 AM
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I do not agree with abortion as birth control.
I do agree with abortion when it comes to cases of rape/incest or the mother's life is in danger (then it is up to her). How can anybody look at a girl/woman who just went through that and tell her no you have to keep that child that came from this severely traumatic episode. If you're the type of person who would make that woman keep that child anyways, you're a sorry excuse for a human being.
I do agree with increasing access to contraceptives and education on how to use them even at the middle/high school level.
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All-In [40353]
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Joined: 7/13/12
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there is a time and a place for everything***
May 9, 2016, 10:05 AM
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