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All-In [42187]
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Riddle me this on Texas's law
Sep 8, 2021, 2:12 PM
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Forgive the new thread, but I'd like us to just focus on this one aspect of it. Let's stay away from the topic of abortion as a means of birth control to correct an "oops".
One of the issues that is always brought up with an abortion law is that of rape or incest, or how could the government possibly require a woman (or girl) to carry a baby to term if the sex wasn't consensual. This is a dilemma that the Texas law presents as this six weeks limit also pertains to rape victims.
Gov. Abbott's response is that Texas is going to "work tirelessly to make sure that we eliminate all rapists from the streets of Texas by aggressively going out and arresting them and prosecuting them and getting them off the streets."
Someone help me understand how that's realistic or why a woman or girl should be required to obey this law if she didn't have a choice in carrying this child?
Because I have a feeling that if men could somehow get pregnant and were raped, the attitude would be much different.
https://www.wspa.com/news/gov-abbott-abortion-bill-wont-force-rape-victims-to-have-babies-texas-will-eliminate-rapists/?utm_medium=referral&utm_source=facebook.com&utm_campaign=socialflow&fbclid=IwAR1FNgHcrInoKDlCuu5qn3xInoAIq4wJubnGZxCPDV7CBdfUO7aI-OzNuKc
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CU Medallion [60043]
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I agree.
Sep 8, 2021, 2:18 PM
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In case of rape or incest, within a 6 week period, you can terminate. I can live with that being the law.
I am still wondering why we are talking about this now and why not back in May? Its like a diversion tactic or something.
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All-In [42187]
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It doesn't matter when it's talked about.
Sep 8, 2021, 2:24 PM
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We already established that's a silly response.
Many women don't know they are pregnant during the 6 week period. If a woman who is raped discovers she is pregnant after 6 weeks, are you saying she should have to carry the baby to term? Why?
Is a 13-year-old girl who is raped by an uncle or another relative going to be able to make that call within those 6 weeks?
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CU Medallion [60043]
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If she was raped, there is a rape kit conducted
Sep 8, 2021, 2:26 PM
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she would know if ##### is present........and to even assert that a woman who was raped wouldn't be watching pregnancy tests like binge watching home shows, you are nuts.
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All-In [42187]
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You are making this assumption for an adult woman...
Sep 8, 2021, 2:27 PM
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I'm sure she would be watching those tests.
But it's not that simple. A rape kit isn't always conducted. A woman may not have known she was raped (intoxicated or something).
And if we're talking children, there are a whole host of reasons why they wouldn't do anything before six weeks, from being too frightened to come forward to not having the means to take action.
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Oculus Spirit [83127]
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Diversion of what?***
Sep 8, 2021, 3:17 PM
[ in reply to I agree. ] |
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All-In [26968]
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The problem with these "exceptions" is that
Sep 8, 2021, 2:19 PM
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if the premise is that it is murder of a child, then how is OK to murder a child, if the circumstances of the conception was __________ .
To me, if doing it in some cases is OK, then doing it in all cases should be OK. And if we are talking about a human life, there should be no exceptions.
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All-In [26968]
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Same premise applies to this 6 weeks limit, also, of course.
Sep 8, 2021, 2:23 PM
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I get the idea of incremental changes being better than no changes.
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CU Medallion [60043]
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dont be so obtuse
Sep 8, 2021, 2:23 PM
[ in reply to The problem with these "exceptions" is that ] |
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Rape - the trauma of rape and the idea of that person being one with you in another human is a concept that I know I couldn't come to terms with at all. Plus, the trauma to the child of being a "rape child" is something I wouldn't wish on anyone.
Incest - there are all kinds of birth defects and illnesses that can come from incest. Plus, again, the social stigmas and the idea of being a child of incest is unfathomable for me. Incest in many cases is much like rape, the father rapes his child, uncle rapes his niece. All so terrible and basically rape.
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All-In [26968]
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Don't understand the obtuse accusation.
Sep 8, 2021, 2:25 PM
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Don't you agree it's logical, that if killing an unborn child is wrong because it is the murder of a child, then that shouldn't change depending on the circumstances of the conception. How is that the child's fault, to the point that they should die?
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CU Medallion [60043]
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I can agree with others like Krzy
Sep 8, 2021, 2:29 PM
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who typically dies in the abortion hill, that it is not a human at that point. I can go along with that assertion. I think around that 6-8 mark, you are bordering a human being. At 9 weeks, you have head, hands, legs, arms. That is my dividing line.
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All-In [26968]
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OK, I don't agree, but understand that logic.
Sep 8, 2021, 2:29 PM
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That still doesn't have anything to do with the circumstances of the conception.
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Oculus Spirit [81897]
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Not sure what it means I die on the hill, but okay.
Sep 8, 2021, 8:36 PM
[ in reply to I can agree with others like Krzy ] |
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Most women don't know they're pregnant at 6 weeks.
I don't need to beat the dead horse because these threads always just fling emotions around. I believe that viability is the key factor, and with the amazing work of medicine continues to keep getting sooner. I'm also pro-choice but am personally against abortions - it's a decision for a woman and her doctor.
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Lot o points [163012]
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Sorry, that logic only works for vaccines.
Sep 9, 2021, 6:09 PM
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Lol.
I am with you, I personally am against abortions, but it is not my decision.
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Oculus Spirit [83127]
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Obtuse? If you actually believe it's murder, then the
Sep 8, 2021, 3:12 PM
[ in reply to dont be so obtuse ] |
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circumstance shouldn't matter.
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All-In [31902]
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You might not agree with his opinion, but it's hardly...
Sep 8, 2021, 3:16 PM
[ in reply to dont be so obtuse ] |
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obtuse.
I think it's a very logical position.
For me, it's troubling when factoring in the entire human (mother and child) equation. From a political perspective, I'm willing to compromise on outlawing abortions and carving out an exception for the health of the mother and I include rape and incest into that category.
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All-In [28802]
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Yep, that's always been a political calculation
Sep 8, 2021, 8:18 PM
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Ie. It would be better to have some restrictions on abortion but to allow it in certain exceptional and rare cases than it would to prohibit all restrictions on abortion. I'm not sure if that political calculation is necessary anymore in certain states, though.
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All-In [42187]
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So you're saying...
Sep 8, 2021, 2:25 PM
[ in reply to The problem with these "exceptions" is that ] |
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If a 13-year-old girl is raped by a relative, she should have to carry that child to term if it's after 6 weeks?
Why should the girl have to go through that? What kind of life is that for the baby?
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All-In [26968]
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It's absolutely horrifying.
Sep 8, 2021, 2:25 PM
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As for what kind of life it is for the baby, it's the kind of life where they're not dead.
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All-In [42187]
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That didn't answer the question, Prod.
Sep 8, 2021, 2:29 PM
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You're telling me you would look that 13 year old in the eye and say, "Well, it's very terrible that your uncle did this to you, but because we're talking another life, you have to carry this child and care for it for the rest of your life."?
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All-In [26968]
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No, I would not say that.
Sep 8, 2021, 2:32 PM
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Do you think if a father dies in a car accident, leaving a mother alone to raise their four year-old, then that mother should be allowed to kill the child? Or would you look her in the face and say "Sorry, you are forced to take care of the child?"
My response to your hypothetical 13-year old is going to be identical to your response to this hypothetical mother. Literally, whatever you say, I'll agree with for the hypothetical 13-year old.
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All-In [42187]
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Those are not comparable situations, and you know that
Sep 8, 2021, 2:48 PM
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At least, I think you do.
That mother with the 4 year old CHOSE to have that 4 year old with another grown man. That isn't the same as an underaged girl raped by a relative.
That's not even the same sport let alone the same ballpark.
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All-In [26968]
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The mother didn't choose for her husband to die.
Sep 8, 2021, 2:51 PM
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Regardless of whether you think they are comparable, I'm telling you, if you want to know what I would say to the hypothetical 13-year old, I would say the same thing you would say to the hypothetical woman in my scenario.
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Hall of Famer [24784]
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All-In [26968]
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It wasn't an analogy
Sep 9, 2021, 7:01 AM
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It was intended as a way to answer Cata's question by making him think in a similar way to the way I was thinking.
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All-In [34109]
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Re: That didn't answer the question, Prod.
Sep 8, 2021, 2:33 PM
[ in reply to That didn't answer the question, Prod. ] |
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I'm often surprised by the confusion I see in response to Prod's comments.
Prod's argument seems really straightforward to me. If abortion is murder, and a 13-year-old intends to have an abortion, then the 13-year-old intends to murder. Whatever terrible things result from not committing the murder, it is likely not as bad as being murdered.
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All-In [26968]
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Exactly. Think of the worst circumstances in the world
Sep 8, 2021, 2:35 PM
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Call that Scenario A.
Scenario A plus a child being murdered is Scenario B.
I argue that Scenario B cannot be better than Scenario A.
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All-In [42187]
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All-In [34109]
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Re: That didn't answer the question, Prod.
Sep 8, 2021, 2:53 PM
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Right, the murder part becomes a black and white issue. It's the worst thing in the world from conception forward, and there's no distinction between murdering a genetically human lifeform so long as it has the right number of chromosomes (i.e., gametes can't be murdered but zygotes can).
As long as that's an agreed-upon premise, you're in good shape. Bear in mind, it's not just that abortion is murder, it's that any murder is worse than any other bad thing. (Prod may actually have some limits on that second piece, because I don't think we've explored it in depth, but he mentioned in this thread one potential exception where you kill a doomed fetus to save an adult human.)
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All-In [42187]
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Re: That didn't answer the question, Prod.
Sep 8, 2021, 2:57 PM
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I don't know Prod's stance on what I'm about to say next, but I will say if someone holds the view that any abortion is murder and thus nothing could be more worse, then I expect them to hold consistent views toward the death penalty. And possibly even supporting military engagements that aren't self defense.
That's if we're going to blanket label it all as murder and that nothing is worse...
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All-In [34109]
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Spoiler alert: Prod's answer
Sep 8, 2021, 3:00 PM
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is that neither of those types of killing (death penalty and war) constitutes murder. I believe he has said as much in the past.
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All-In [26968]
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Correct.
Sep 8, 2021, 3:03 PM
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Murder is an intentional taking of an innocent life. Capital punishment (which is Biblically commanded, outside of Levitical Law) and the theater of war do not apply.
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All-In [42187]
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And if...
Sep 8, 2021, 3:06 PM
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The person executed was actually innocent, which has happened many, many, many times under our law?
Because somewhere in that mix, a future serial killer was aborted, no?
If you reject the murder of an innocent fetus, wouldn't you also reject a system where an innocent man could be killed by the state?
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All-In [26968]
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It's not my call...God said it.
Sep 8, 2021, 3:08 PM
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He wanted to implement a system by which an innocent man could be killed by the state.
If someone intentionally did something to cause an incorrect guilty verdict, then I would consider that person a murderer.
If it was a mistake, then that's horrible, but it's an imperfect system run by imperfect people. God knows.
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All-In [42187]
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But our justice system...
Sep 8, 2021, 3:11 PM
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And capitol punishment is not defined under Biblical law (no, folks, it's not).
It seems if we aren't making any exceptions for abortion in order to preserve life of the unborn, we shouldn't be making any legal exceptions when it comes to preserving the lives of those who are grown.
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All-In [26968]
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Capital punishment: Genesis 9:6
Sep 8, 2021, 3:14 PM
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I agree, Biblically, there shouldn't be any exceptions for capital punishment. If found guilty of Murder 1, the execution should happen, as immediately as possible.
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All-In [42187]
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Exodus and Leviticus call for...
Sep 8, 2021, 3:17 PM
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Execution of someone who curses or insults their own parents. And failing to keep the Sabbath holy. And adultery (see ya, Trump!).
Do you agree there as well?
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All-In [26968]
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I agree God wanted them to do that, yes.
Sep 8, 2021, 3:18 PM
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He hasn't told us to do that, though.
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All-In [42187]
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I guess maybe I need to go down this road
Sep 8, 2021, 3:24 PM
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You say God states that people should be executed for murder, and you agree with it (swiftly, you said).
You said all abortion is murder.
Does this mean you wish for capital punishment for any woman who has an abortion?
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All-In [26968]
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I don't think the state should execute someone
Sep 8, 2021, 3:29 PM
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(or punish in any way) if the same state has told them what they did is OK. In this case, the state shares the guilt. In a way, it's similar to killing in war...it's state-sanctioned killing, though there are obviously differences as well.
So I use the criterion "found guilty of murder".
I would not spiritually besmirch someone who went the other way, though, because I can't necessarily point to chapter and verse to support it.
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All-In [26968]
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In Genesis 9:6, the two words "by man"
Sep 8, 2021, 3:33 PM
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say that man is in charge of implementing and executing the command. He gives the government the responsibility. So I think it's up to the government to do it correctly. If they don't, he will hold them (individuals in government) accountable for however they did it wrong. One way they can do it wrong is to incorrectly define murder.
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Hall of Famer [21577]
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Well its a good thing the Christian Taliban isn't allowed to
Sep 8, 2021, 3:37 PM
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solely make our laws.
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All-In [26968]
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Cata, I'm not going to go any further here, because
Sep 8, 2021, 3:38 PM
[ in reply to I don't think the state should execute someone ] |
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it will mess up the board, and I hate when people do that. If you want to discuss capital punishment more, please start a new thread. (It's not on topic with the OP anyway) Not sure how much more I can say, so I will not guarantee a reply, but I'm not running from the discussion.
I'm also leaving very soon, so it may be the morning before I say more.
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Orange Blooded [4020]
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Re: Exodus and Leviticus call for...
Sep 9, 2021, 10:21 AM
[ in reply to Exodus and Leviticus call for... ] |
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This is the part where you expose how Christian Conservatives like to cherry pick which parts of the Bible should be followed and which parts should be ignored.
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All-In [26968]
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None of the Bible should be ignored
Sep 9, 2021, 10:56 AM
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And all of it should be followed, as appropriate.
Would you expect the President to follow Article 1 of the Constitution? Of course not, because it doesn't apply to him. And the document explicitly says it doesn't. But that doesn't mean Article 1 should be ignored by anyone, including the President.
If the Bible say "Prodigal you do A, and Birmingham, you do B," then I'm not cherry picking if I do A. I'm doing what it tells me to do.
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All-In [42187]
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I think you can agree...
Sep 9, 2021, 11:10 AM
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That executing people for adultery, insulting their parents, and working on the Sabbath is outrageous, correct?
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All-In [26968]
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It would be outrageous for us to do that, yes.
Sep 9, 2021, 11:15 AM
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Christ came and died to free us from any need to do those things...he died so the adulterer, the parent-insulter, and the Sabbath-worker didn't have to. To return to them would be to make his sacrifice in vain. And that would be outrageous indeed.
Galatians 5:1
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All-In [42187]
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Re: It would be outrageous for us to do that, yes.
Sep 9, 2021, 11:16 AM
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So then do we apply that same guideline to capital punishment? I know you said you wanted to discuss that in another thread, but for the sake of the board, it may be best not to start a new one.
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All-In [26968]
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You may have missed it, but it's reason I specifically
Sep 9, 2021, 11:20 AM
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pointed out when I first mentioned it that capital punishment was outside of Levitical Law. Indeed, it predates the Law by a thousand years, and was given to all men for all time.
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Orange Blooded [4020]
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Legend [18024]
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"It's God's fault"
Sep 8, 2021, 5:39 PM
[ in reply to It's not my call...God said it. ] |
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And why would God want to implement a system by which an innocent man could be killed by the state? The fact you acknowledge that happens means you(and all of us) are guilty of premeditated murder when an innocent person is executed.
Considering there are logical, rational, and valid alternatives available to punish people (even murderers) outside of capital punishment, it makes advocating for capital punishment simply based on "God's will" come off similar to how Islamic Extremists sound.
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All-In [26968]
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OK***
Sep 9, 2021, 6:51 AM
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Legend [18024]
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Wow, okay.***
Sep 9, 2021, 4:29 PM
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All-In [26968]
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I mean, I guess you intended it as an ad hominem insult
Sep 10, 2021, 7:48 AM
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That I "sound like an Islamic extremist". I don't know what that is supposed to mean in terms of our discussion. I don't know what Islamic extremists believe about this topic, but I'm sure there are plenty of things I agree with them about, and so does everyone else. And, of course, there are many things I disagree with them about (I do think their religion is evil.)
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Legend [18024]
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absolutely not, but not surprised you took it as that.
Sep 10, 2021, 5:42 PM
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Ad hominem would be to attack you personally. I'd have to outright call you an Islamic Terrorist, and that's clearly not what I was saying.
What I did, however, was to compare your position to that of an Islamic Terrorist's position and how similar they are. Considering the inflammatory nature of that truth and how no rational person would ever want to have their position be similar to that of an Islamic terrorist I can see how that might upset you or make you think it was an attack on you, but it wasn't. The point was to show the irrationality of the opinion. I hope that clarifies it for you.
And note, I was pretty specific in what I was saying sounded like agreement with an Islamic Terrorist's position so it doesn't matter there are "plenty of things" you might or might not agree with them about. The topic was very specified.
As for what it means for our discussion let me try a different way:
Can you argue your position on allowing Capital Punishment that doesn't involve falling back on "God's will"?
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All-In [26968]
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Definitely not.
Sep 13, 2021, 8:26 AM
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That's the only reason needed.
If God didn't say to do it, I'd definitely be against it.
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Legend [18024]
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Let me try through a different lens...
Sep 13, 2021, 4:45 PM
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If Capital Punishment was banned or simply not used, would you say it should be?
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All-In [26968]
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And, I wasn't upset in the least.
Sep 13, 2021, 8:29 AM
[ in reply to absolutely not, but not surprised you took it as that. ] |
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But I do think it's ad hominem, because saying it "sounds like an Islamic extremist" doesn't address the legitimacy of the argument. What is bad about the argument, such that "sounding like an Islamic extremist" is a bad thing?
It obviously doesn't upset me at all that I would have a position similar to an Islamic extremist. I volunteered that myself, so obviously it doesn't bother me.
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Legend [18024]
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It categorizes the argument which is a type of addressing.
Sep 13, 2021, 4:37 PM
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Again, ad hominem would be to attack you personally so I would have to call you an Islamic Terrorist/extremist for it to be ad hominem. Instead, I categorized your argument as one similar to that of an Islamic Terrorist/extremist. Again, the difference might seem slight which is why I understand why you think it was ad hominem.
Theological extremism in any form, is usually seen as something to avoid because of the danger it presents to the civil order. That's why holding an opinion that falls into that category is a "bad thing."
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Hall of Famer [24784]
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Convenient...***
Sep 8, 2021, 10:25 PM
[ in reply to Correct. ] |
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All-In [31902]
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Come on counselor, words matter...
Sep 8, 2021, 3:21 PM
[ in reply to Re: That didn't answer the question, Prod. ] |
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murder is the illegal killing of a person
Instead of murder, I think homicide fits better.
Abortion isn't currently murder...because it's legal. But it is the taking of a life according to Prod's view (and mine for that matter).
I know it's splitting hairs and I'm not sure why it's a pet peeve of mine.
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All-In [34109]
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That's a brilliant point. Well, almost...
Sep 8, 2021, 3:28 PM
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You're absolutely right that I've let "murder" go undefined, which really isn't fair to the argument.
But I'll tell you Prod's answer to that. (Sorry Prod, don't mean to sound presumptuous but your point of view is so crystal clear that I have no problem reciting it.) Murder isn't the illegal killing of someone. It's unjustified killing.
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All-In [26968]
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I actually defined murder elsewhere on this thread.
Sep 8, 2021, 3:29 PM
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You are pretty much correct.
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All-In [31902]
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Since when do we get to make up our own definitions of...
Sep 8, 2021, 3:36 PM
[ in reply to That's a brilliant point. Well, almost... ] |
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words?
Murder is clearly defined as the illegal and premeditated killing of another person.
But I was just making the point splitting hairs. We clearly all know what you meant...as sloppy and unprofessional as it may have been 
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All-In [34109]
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If we want to get technical, "illegal" isn't
Sep 8, 2021, 3:54 PM
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part of the legal definition of murder. After all, that would make it circular.
Murder is usually considered the intentional killing of another person. Premeditated killing makes it first degree in most places, reckless indifference or something along those lines makes it second degree.
The reason why abortion isn't murder isn't because it's "legal killing." It's because an unborn human isn't considered a person under the law, and therefore the "another person" element of the crime isn't met.
Your point was correct and I was sloppy. But now I have to go find where Prod defined murder and find out how close my answer was.
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All-In [34109]
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All-In [31902]
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All-In [34109]
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Fair enough. Makes sense that the dictionary definition
Sep 8, 2021, 4:26 PM
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would include the fact that murder is illegal, since it's a crime. But legal definitions don't include "illegal" in definitions of crimes, because circular.
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All-In [31902]
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Of course....but if you where going to explain murder to...
Sep 8, 2021, 4:32 PM
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someone, you would say "the illegal/unlawful killing of another person"...right?
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All-In [34109]
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Yes you certainly would.
Sep 8, 2021, 4:50 PM
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Now, to bring this around to where the subthread started, it was about Prod's starting point that abortion is murder. He couldn't have meant that abortion is illegal, since it isn't, just like the phrase "meat is murder" isn't a statement about the legality of eating meat.
Thus, when Prod referred to abortion being the "murder of a child" (link below), he was clearly referring to a definition of "murder" that did not include legality. I think we all understood his meaning, but you are nevertheless correct to point out the common definition.
https://www.tigernet.com/clemson-forum/message/the-problem-with-these-exceptions-is-that-29397575
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All-In [28802]
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Eh. His statement was normative, not descriptive
Sep 8, 2021, 8:28 PM
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But, as you say, just calling something "murder" is question begging when what we want to know is whether something should be right or wrong, or whether it should be illegal. When somebody says that something is "murder," they can mean that it's currently illegal killing, or that it should be illegal killing. But if it should be illegal killing, but isn't currently illegal, then they'll have to explain why it should be.
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All-In [31902]
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Well we are beating this horse to death....
Sep 9, 2021, 7:39 AM
[ in reply to Yes you certainly would. ] |
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my point is that instead of pro-lifers saying "abortion is murder" it is more proper and I believe illustrates the point better to say "abortion is homicide and should be illegal". That makes the point that it is believed that abortion is the taking of a human life and should therefore be illegal.
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All-In [34109]
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And of course I don't disagree with what you're saying...
Sep 9, 2021, 7:47 AM
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Actually, your last point works both ways. You could say that it should be murder because it's the taking of a human life. OR you could say abortion is murder because--despite repeated incorrect determinations by our courts--it meets the elements of the crime of murder because unborn humans are persons.
This gets into a silly area of esoterica called "legal realism," which is the notion that there can be a truly correct answer to a legal question, even if all the courts get the answer wrong. Under that idea, abortion might in reality be murder, but people aren't being arrested because all the courts messed up.
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All-In [28802]
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Correct, but that's also scientifically illiterate
Sep 8, 2021, 8:16 PM
[ in reply to If we want to get technical, "illegal" isn't ] |
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If what we mean is that some human beings aren't legal persons with rights, then we're just back to debating what killing is legal and what killing isn't. At the time when unborn children were treated as if they were not persons under the law in order to find a right to privacy, we knew less about human development and the idea that the developing child in the womb was just a mass of cells was more defensible. It isn't that way anymore, but some people still pretend like it is because, as you said, it's the basis of the legality of abortion.
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All-In [34109]
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Re: Correct, but that's also scientifically illiterate
Sep 9, 2021, 12:48 PM
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I have no real disagreement except that I think we knew plenty about fetal development in 1973 when Roe was decided. And the Court chose the trimester rule in an attempt to recognize the differences in developmental stages.
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All-In [28802]
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A more honest version of this debate would be:
Sep 8, 2021, 8:11 PM
[ in reply to Come on counselor, words matter... ] |
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When is the taking of life "murder," and when is it not? Abortion proponents have wanted to argue that killing unborn children doesn't take a life, because they have tried to argue that the unborn aren't alive. They've relied on the fact that unborn children are inside a mother's body and have to rely on the mother's body for survival to argue that an unborn child is just like, say, lung cells or red blood cells. While that never really made intuitive sense, we now know that unborn children are new human individuals at the earliest state of development from conception.
So it's simply a fact that you're killing another human being when you perform an abortion. But since we don't always think it's murder to kill another human (capital punishment, killing in war, self-defense, etc.), abortion supporters need to argue why abortion should be legal killing. Because so much of the above is usually obfuscated by media writing about abortion, and by abortion activists, we just get these super stale, question begging, reflexively liberal slogans like "my body, my choice," or "keep your rosaries off my ovaries!" Meanwhile, pro-choicers never really have to defend their ethical principles.
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Lot o points [155941]
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Hall of Famer [24079]
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Re: That didn't answer the question, Prod.
Sep 8, 2021, 2:37 PM
[ in reply to That didn't answer the question, Prod. ] |
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Let's say the rape victim had the baby, and when the baby was 1 year old, the mother started having major psychological problems based on the baby's existence. Would you be ok with killing the baby at that point? I think what he is saying is, if it's a life it's a life.
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All-In [28802]
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I think this is trying to make law by exception
Sep 8, 2021, 3:00 PM
[ in reply to That didn't answer the question, Prod. ] |
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You're thinking up the most extreme, unlikely cases as the main reasons for opposing abortion restrictions.
Abbott is being more than a little silly in suggesting that Texas can somehow totally prevent pregnancy due to rape by eliminating rape. Obviously, though, if you can make these cases even more rare than they already are, then you have less of these very tragic situations.
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All-In [42187]
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Re: I think this is trying to make law by exception
Sep 8, 2021, 3:07 PM
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Yes, Abbott is being more than a little silly, but this:
You're thinking up the most extreme, unlikely cases as the main reasons for opposing abortion restrictions.
Isn't as unlikely or extreme as you think in many impoverished communities. And it happens, thus it needs to be addressed in the scenario.
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All-In [28802]
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It's around 1% of abortions
Sep 8, 2021, 8:30 PM
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Yes, that's still too many, and considering how many abortions happen yearly, it's around 3000 per year. Roughly, because obviously the numbers will depend on state populations and number of rapes in a state in a given year, that would come to 60 such pregnancies per state if we just divide by 50.
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Hall of Famer [21577]
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What do you mean?
Sep 8, 2021, 3:31 PM
[ in reply to It's absolutely horrifying. ] |
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That baby is in heaven!
You're selfish if you want it to live in h3ll on earth just because it makes you feel better.
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Orange Blooded [2999]
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And 13 year olds have such great odds on mortality...
Sep 9, 2021, 8:58 AM
[ in reply to It's absolutely horrifying. ] |
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Jesus Christ this thread.
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All-In [42187]
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Yeah, I'm pretty floored.
Sep 9, 2021, 9:41 AM
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I mean, we've had mostly civil discussion, but it's still boiling down to, "You're 13 and uncle raped you and got you pregnant? Suck it up, butter cup. This is God's will. Have a nice life."
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All-In [26968]
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Nobody in this thread is conveying that attitude.
Sep 9, 2021, 11:00 AM
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Not that I've seen. Strawman, all day long.
It's hard to imagine anyone needing more help than this hypothetical 13-year old. The onus should be on everyone in her community to do everything they can to help her. "Suck it up...have a nice life?" That would be evil, and no one in this thread is intimating that it is appropriate.
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All-In [26968]
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It's why I gave you the mental exercise of my
Sep 9, 2021, 11:03 AM
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counter-hypothetical. I was hoping I didn't have to say it, and you would understand based on your own feelings. Would you tell the woman in my hypothetical to "suck it up, have a nice life?" No, you wouldn't! You would love her and help her in any way you could.
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All-In [31902]
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That is a very poor summary of what has been said on this...
Sep 9, 2021, 11:02 AM
[ in reply to Yeah, I'm pretty floored. ] |
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subject in this thread.
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All-In [42187]
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It sure is feeling like it.
Sep 9, 2021, 11:13 AM
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Here. Let me sum up the correct answer. Thirteen year old raped by uncle and she's pregnant? Take her to abortion clinic. Done. End of discussion. Don't care if it's past six weeks. Don't care about the law. No, there is no "let's help her the best we can."
That's it. That's how this is handled.
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All-In [26968]
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That sounds to me like the kind of callousness
Sep 9, 2021, 11:17 AM
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You just projected onto others. "Done. End of discussion...Don't care....Don't care...That's it..."
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All-In [42187]
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Forgive me...
Sep 9, 2021, 11:25 AM
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My patience is growing a little thin with these examples. I've said I don't like abortion as a means of birth control, but there is a lot of gray area and situations that happen that demand this issue not be treated as a black vs. white one. And I lay that same onus on the pro-choice crowd who say it's completely a woman's choice.
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All-In [26968]
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No problem...I would like it if you
Sep 9, 2021, 11:34 AM
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acknowledged that no one in this thread has expressed a callous attitude toward your hypothetical that you previously described.
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Orange Blooded [2999]
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A callous attitude hardly matters when the reality the
Sep 9, 2021, 11:39 AM
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nuanced one creates is, what's the word, callous.
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All-In [42187]
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Fair enough...
Sep 9, 2021, 11:44 AM
[ in reply to No problem...I would like it if you ] |
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My apologies for insinuating that. My thoughts were that this thread started to take too much of a "abortion is a black or white issue" approach.
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All-In [26968]
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The right/wrong of killing a child
Sep 9, 2021, 11:55 AM
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is black and white, but that doesn't mean the situation is. Every situation where this is considered is colored by a multitude of factors, that must all be addressed. We cannot say "this child must live" and not address how that child and mother will have a sufficient quality of life. We cannot say "you can't do that" without providing reasonable alternatives. We cannot say "what you are thinking of doing is wrong" without addressing the circumstances that drove the individual to that point, and trying to prevent it from happening.
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CU Medallion [60043]
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thats why I am saying lump in rape with incest
Sep 8, 2021, 2:27 PM
[ in reply to So you're saying... ] |
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its hardly ever separated.
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All-In [42187]
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I'm confused by your initial response?
Sep 8, 2021, 2:28 PM
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Did you mean to say you agree there should be exceptions to this law for rape and incest?
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CU Medallion [60043]
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yes I agree there should be exemptions
Sep 8, 2021, 2:33 PM
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just for these two.
No exemption on birth defects or a down syndrome possibility.
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All-In [42187]
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Re: yes I agree there should be exemptions
Sep 8, 2021, 2:49 PM
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I concur that abortion shouldn't be on the table simply because a child has a birth defect or Downs, as you mention.
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Orange Blooded [2999]
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It absolutely should be for many birth defects though.
Sep 9, 2021, 9:00 AM
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There are many fetuses that are incompatible with life outside the womb. These situations are why 2nd trimester abortions should still be allowed.
A hospital shouldn't have to wait until a woman with an infection is life-threateningly in sepsis before allowing a D&E.
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All-In [26968]
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I hate doing this, because I get sucked in, and I don't
Sep 8, 2021, 2:40 PM
[ in reply to The problem with these "exceptions" is that ] |
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like what these debates do to my emotions. But I will just say what I've said before. Morally, I can think of only one exception, and it's still troubling to me. If it's a medically sure thing that neither the mother or the child would survive the pregnancy, then I would consider allowing an exception to take that child's life. Very, very hard for me to say, and I'm not sure I agree with myself all the time on this.
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All-In [42187]
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I guess morally I see another flaw with the law
Sep 8, 2021, 2:51 PM
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If an underage girl is raped, even worse if it's a family member, and she goes past the six week threshold, we're now going to open the door to further her pain by allowing random private citizens to sue her under Texas law. And she and/or her family probably won't have the money to fight it.
The world will be lucky if that girl doesn't take her life and the fetus with her.
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All-In [28802]
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You can't sue the woman, I believe
Sep 8, 2021, 3:06 PM
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Just the people performing the abortion or aiding in the performance of it. These are obviously very difficult situations, but it's always seemed to me that our thinking about abortion is clouded by the illusion of choice over the whole matter of pregnancy. Choice isn't the default, it's a luxury given to us by technology much of the time, and even then, we don't really have a choice over our mechanism of reproduction.
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All-In [34109]
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All-TigerNet [13360]
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All-In [42187]
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Okay, I stand corrected. Thanks.
Sep 8, 2021, 3:14 PM
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I still hold this is a cruel measure to take against a girl who is a victim of such circumstances.
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All-In [28802]
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It wouldn't be a measure against a girl
Sep 8, 2021, 3:23 PM
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Just people performing an abortion on her. I can see how some people might think it's cruel not to allow others to perform an abortion on her, or to punish them for doing so. But maybe abortion isn't the only thing we can do for women who are victims of rape who become pregnant. Maybe the money from the fines for violations of this law could be used to support women who become pregnant because of rape.
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All-In [42187]
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I meant...
Sep 8, 2021, 3:27 PM
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Just making a young girl go through that in general, legal penalty or not.
But maybe abortion isn't the only thing we can do for women who are victims of rape who become pregnant.
See, now I would like to see more support on this end, but we get too much of "can't have an abortion at all but also don't want to provide measures to assist you once you've had the kid" from the GOP.
And rape victims, period, just don't get the support they deserve from government.
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All-In [28802]
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But nobody is "making" somebody do anything
Sep 8, 2021, 8:21 PM
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That's simply the way the body works. Unfortunately, the modern liberal mindset (meaning, the whole philosophy of liberalism since the 17th century) has been to treat everything as if it can be controlled by choice, which is confusing in instances like these where what we're actually talking about is control over the body.
Message was edited by: camcgee®
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Hall of Famer [24784]
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Their body, not yours... or did the King say different?***
Sep 9, 2021, 11:59 AM
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Orange Blooded [2999]
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We're literally talking about forcing children to have
Sep 9, 2021, 9:03 AM
[ in reply to It wouldn't be a measure against a girl ] |
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babies. How this doesn't fall under "acceptable exceptions" to you all is lost on me. Carlin was right I suppose.
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All-In [28802]
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We literally aren't talking about that***
Sep 9, 2021, 5:20 PM
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Orange Blooded [2999]
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6 weeks from last period is the calculation right?
Sep 9, 2021, 8:21 PM
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So doing the math, could be roughly 14 days after missed one? Gotta get two appointments in, might be tough with no clinics operating, if daddy has money there’s other states/countries if not, maybe the church could throw a baby shower?
What am I misinterpreting? Perhaps we could share with them about how the lord works in mysterious ways and they can wear baggy clothes to hide the bump at youth group?
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Head Coach [790]
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Re: Riddle me this on Texas's law
Sep 8, 2021, 3:08 PM
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The issue is it is not a child at 6 weeks, 9 weeks, 12 weeks, 15 weeks, 20 weeks, 24 weeks, etc.
It is a CHILD when it is born, otherwise it is a fetus. So let us be clear on this.
Thus the debate should be around when a fetus is viable outside the womb, at which point it would be a child. And by viable i mean able to live and breath on its own without extraordinary measures. This dividing line is roughly the 24th week. Yes we can save children who are born at 20/21ish weeks, but they are a small percentage and faced with loads of other issues to manage throughout their life.
So you can call it a "child" all you want to try and normalize this and make people feel like they are cruel or whatnot, but it isn't a child. It is a fetus.
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Hall of Famer [24079]
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Re: Riddle me this on Texas's law
Sep 8, 2021, 3:18 PM
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Fetus is Latin for offspring. Killing your offspring is a pretty good description as well.
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Head Coach [790]
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Re: Riddle me this on Texas's law
Sep 8, 2021, 3:22 PM
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definition is "unborn offspring". Meaning ... not a child.
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All-In [39020]
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Projection.
Sep 9, 2021, 9:15 PM
[ in reply to Re: Riddle me this on Texas's law ] |
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You want to define it as something other than a child because the truth exposes the reality of the situation.
A young human being below the age of puberty.
I see elsewhere you want to deny the very humanity of unborn children, which makes sense. People in favor of mass murder often attempt to dehumanize their victims beforehand.
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Oculus Spirit [83127]
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6 weeks is insanity. Every woman 10 days late may have to
Sep 8, 2021, 3:19 PM
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take a pregnancy test.
This will get struck down eventually.
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All-In [28802]
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Why? It's when unborn children's hearts start to beat***
Sep 8, 2021, 3:25 PM
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Head Coach [790]
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Re: Why? It's when unborn children's hearts start to beat***
Sep 8, 2021, 3:26 PM
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again ... not a child. A fetus.
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Hall of Famer [24079]
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Re: Why? It's when unborn children's hearts start to beat***
Sep 8, 2021, 3:28 PM
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Whatever helps you sleep at night
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Head Coach [790]
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Re: Why? It's when unborn children's hearts start to beat***
Sep 8, 2021, 3:35 PM
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I sleep like a rock at night. You know why? Because I believe that women should be empowered to make the right decision for them.
They are the ones impacted by this
They are the ones who have to undergo the trauma
They are the ones who bear 99% of the burden
So I sleep well because i am doing what i can to ensure that women are trusted to make the right decision for them and their fetus and potential child going forward.
During the day, i do worry about judgmental a**hats like yourself who try and impose power and control over women because of their fears and inadequacies. That's what's dangerous.
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Hall of Famer [24079]
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Re: Why? It's when unborn children's hearts start to beat***
Sep 8, 2021, 3:42 PM
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Let the hate out
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Head Coach [790]
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Re: Why? It's when unborn children's hearts start to beat***
Sep 8, 2021, 3:54 PM
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I have no idea what you're even trying to say....
I got nothing but love....
You on the other hand wag your judgmental finger over everyone who doesn't believe in your version of your bible. Which is a shame because you miss so much beauty in life that way.
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Hall of Famer [24079]
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Re: Why? It's when unborn children's hearts start to beat***
Sep 8, 2021, 3:59 PM
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I didn't say anything about the Bible dumba ss. So I believe you are the one being judgmental. You are also the one that started calling people names.
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Head Coach [790]
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Re: Why? It's when unborn children's hearts start to beat***
Sep 8, 2021, 4:08 PM
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You gonna tell me your opinion on this topic is rooted solely in science? You're an atheist pro-lifer?
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Hall of Famer [24079]
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Re: Why? It's when unborn children's hearts start to beat***
Sep 8, 2021, 4:12 PM
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Why would you have to be particularly religious to think that killing a human with a heartbeat is wrong? Seems like a fairly natural human thing to believe.
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Head Coach [790]
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Re: Why? It's when unborn children's hearts start to beat***
Sep 8, 2021, 5:53 PM
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ok, then let's take that 6 week human, remove it from the womb and let it live it's best life. That's the best thing for it right?
Oh wait....
1) it isn't a human
2) it isn't a child
It is an embryo which turns into a fetus. I'm sorry you can differentiate this.
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Hall of Famer [24079]
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Re: Why? It's when unborn children's hearts start to beat***
Sep 8, 2021, 6:13 PM
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A baby can't live on its own after it is born. That doesn't mean it's not human or valuable.
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Head Coach [790]
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Re: Why? It's when unborn children's hearts start to beat***
Sep 8, 2021, 6:43 PM
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So if an illegal immigrant comes into the US and has a 6 week old embryo in her womb with a beating heart, that embryo is a citizen of the united states then yes?
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Hall of Famer [24079]
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Re: Why? It's when unborn children's hearts start to beat***
Sep 8, 2021, 7:33 PM
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We just have a different set of morals. I value what is inside of a pregnant woman and you don't. We're just different types of people.
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Head Coach [790]
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Re: Why? It's when unborn children's hearts start to beat***
Sep 8, 2021, 7:49 PM
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haha...you answered my question. Actually we don't have different morals and ethics.
You actually don't care about all the embryos and fetuses. I get it. Just the ones that look and feel like you.
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All-TigerNet [13605]
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Re: Why? It's when unborn children's hearts start to beat***
Sep 8, 2021, 4:20 PM
[ in reply to Re: Why? It's when unborn children's hearts start to beat*** ] |
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I dont know about Fuller, but I'm an atheist.
I am pro-choice but do believe we minimize the amount of abortions anyway possible and legally.
Too many people on our side of the isle (and not referring to anyone on tnet) are against anything that may reduce abortions.
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Legend [18024]
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If those people arguing against ways to reduce abortions
Sep 8, 2021, 6:21 PM
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like contraceptives, sex education, and making it legal (look at Switzerland's rates and methods) then they may not be actually pro-choice.
I'd like to know what their arguments are and why they don't want to reduce abortions, I think it's a universal truth that both pro-choice and anti-abortionists want fewer abortions. They just disagree on how to go about doing it.
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Legend [18024]
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All-In [28802]
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I'm not sure that's right...
Sep 8, 2021, 8:25 PM
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something is beating at that point.
https://www.karger.com/Article/Fulltext/501906#:~:text=The%20development%20of%20the%20heart,cells%20and%20heart%20tube%20looping.
The development of the heart begins as early as the third week of gestation with the 4-chamber fetal heart formed by gestational week 7. It involves complex biochemical signals, interactions, and specification of myocardial progenitor cells and heart tube looping. The transition from the fetal to neonatal circulation is considered to be a period of intricate physiological, anatomical, and biochemical changes in the cardiovascular system. With a successful cardiopulmonary transition to the extrauterine environment, the fetal shunts are functionally modified or eliminated, enabling independent life.
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Legend [18024]
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Even that's saying it's after 6 weeks and not a "heart"
Sep 8, 2021, 10:07 PM
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The whole first trimester is known for organogenesis and until recently they couldn't even detect the heart "fluttering" that occurs in the embryo stage.
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All-In [28802]
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That's not quite what it's saying***
Sep 9, 2021, 5:21 PM
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Legend [18024]
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Yeah, it is.***
Sep 10, 2021, 12:45 AM
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All-In [39020]
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As usual no good arguments for abortion...
Sep 9, 2021, 9:12 PM
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which is why the conversation immediately jumps to the extreme outlier cases of rape, incest, etc.
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All-In [42187]
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Oh, you mean the things that never, ever happen?***
Sep 13, 2021, 8:47 AM
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Oculus Spirit [81066]
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lulz..old white guys arguing about stuff that won't affect
Sep 10, 2021, 12:56 AM
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them, as if they have all the answers to every instance.
Hey..have I told you how I think you should do your taxes, conduct your marriage, or plan your retirement?
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