Replies: 75
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Orange Blooded [4995]
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Heisman Winner [111733]
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Re: A good read for the naturalist/atheist
Nov 26, 2018, 7:28 AM
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I have enough questions to fill a phone book on Noah's ark alone.
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Orange Blooded [4995]
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Re: A good read for the naturalist/atheist
Nov 26, 2018, 9:10 AM
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Are you aware that the strictly literal view of the Bible is a fairly recent view?
A lot of the early church fathers who we count on for so much interpretation and confirmation of which books are inspired held a more allegorical view of the Old Testament. They were not concerned with whether the event literally occurred, it was the meaning behind it. I won't say Noah didn't really build an ark but the story clearly points to Jesus saving those who believe through faith. Same thing with the "talking snake" and eating the forbidden fruit. Clearly the snake represents evil and the temptation to sin.
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Heisman Winner [111733]
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Re: A good read for the naturalist/atheist
Nov 26, 2018, 9:26 AM
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OK, then where do we draw this line on Allegorical references and truth. It all seems rather fuzzy to me. I can certainly appreciate the metaphorical nature of the book, but draw the line when it starts start dealing in magic.
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All-In [42203]
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So I have a serious question/response
Nov 26, 2018, 8:22 AM
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Does this book address the most common question: Why does bad stuff happen to good people?
If so, what's the answer?
This has been the number one reason I drifted away from the faith. It was solidly driven home over a year ago when I lost a person special to me (and an amazing person at that) in a car accident way, way before their time. It further pushes me away when I see that nut Katie Arrington survive her accident and claim it was all part of God's plan.
Which is the problem I've had with the past responses. That this is all part of the plan, that it all happens for a reason, that they're in a better place, etc.
Because the problem is that I've seen too often how it tears those left behind apart, and more often than not, I see them drift further from faith as well. Doesn't that work against what God wants?
I get it. We all have to die and it's not going to be pretty for everyone. It's just who goes at what time and how they go that doesn't settle well with me.
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All-In [26968]
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There's a problem with the question: it's loaded.
Nov 26, 2018, 8:32 AM
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Why do bad things happen to good people? This assumes there is such a thing as "good people".
Sure on a relative scale, from our human eyes, some people seem worse than others. But the Bible says that there is none righteous, no not one.
On my very best day, when I feel like I've put others before myself, when I've helped somebody, when I was as kind as I could be...what I deserve for all of that is eternal hell.
God's love is so great, that he would allow one iota of good to happen to the best person who ever lived. How unfathomable that he would do any good to me!
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Rock Defender [54]
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Tell that to a grieving parent.
Nov 26, 2018, 8:45 AM
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Hey if this worldview helps you out in your day-to-day, more power to you. But please for the love of Christ, don't spout that off to someone who's lost someone.
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All-In [26968]
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Um, why would anyone ever do that?
Nov 26, 2018, 8:48 AM
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Obviously I never would.
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Rock Defender [54]
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I've seen it done. The question was about bad things
Nov 26, 2018, 8:50 AM
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happening to "good" people, and your response was basically that there are no good people and you should be thankful if anything good happens to you.
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All-In [42203]
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Re: I've seen it done. The question was about bad things
Nov 26, 2018, 8:54 AM
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I too have seen it. People having the audacity to say "things happen for a reason" or "God has a plan".
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Orange Blooded [4995]
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Re: I've seen it done. The question was about bad things
Nov 26, 2018, 9:12 AM
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And that's a terribly insensitive answer. God has nothing to do with the bad things that happen in this world. But he can work through the bad things. He's done it all throughout history.
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Oculus Spirit [81078]
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"God has nothing to do with the bad things that happen in
Nov 26, 2018, 10:16 AM
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this world"
Say what?
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All-In [42203]
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Orange Blooded [4995]
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Re: I've seen it done. The question was about bad things
Nov 26, 2018, 10:45 AM
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No it says that God created the world perfect but with the opportunity for sin. It’s human beings that have turned it into the awful place that it is. God or no God you can’t argue against that. Even when it comes to natural disasters. Take the fact that there are people starving in the deserts of Africa from lack of rain. When you take into account that Americans who only represent 7% of the worlds population yet use over 50% of the worlds resources the blame falls squarely on us.
You brought up a drunk driver earlier. Do you think each individual should have the ability to choose right from wrong or should God have created a bunch of robots? A world where we have free will has to also have the opportunities for wrong choices to be made no? You’ll say well an all powerful God could have stopped it.....well doesn’t the Bible warn against the dangers of alchohol?
In fact if you were to live strictly by what the Bible teaches wouldn’t you agree we’d have heaven on earth?
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Oculus Spirit [81078]
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If God created heaven and earth, then he also created
Nov 26, 2018, 11:04 AM
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disease. And all the cancers. And multiple thousands of other issues with the human body that kill, maim and punish those who have never sinned, sometimes before they are born.
I won't even start on the circular logic of how a perfect being creates something that is imperfect.
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Orange Blooded [4995]
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Re: If God created heaven and earth, then he also created
Nov 26, 2018, 11:26 AM
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Aren’t the vast majority of diseases and cancers caused by poor choices we make? The leading cause of death is heart disease yet you still see the fast food lines backed up at lunch time. You still see people sucking down those cigarettes....
It all goes back to free will and the ability to make choices. If I knew I always had tomorrow I wouldn’t love my wife and kids and cherish each moment like I do. You’ll say well why didn’t God put us in heaven to start with? Well we wouldn’t have made the choice then would we? Our choice would have been made for us....
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Oculus Spirit [81078]
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St Jude and Shriners' hospitals are filled with children
Nov 26, 2018, 11:46 AM
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with cancer that haven't made enough choices to cause themselves life threatening diseases.
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Orange Blooded [4995]
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Re: St Jude and Shriners' hospitals are filled with children
Nov 26, 2018, 11:54 AM
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And the atheistic world view says those kids who have names, self awareness, love for their family, desires, hope, all these feelings, it all means nothing. They'll die soon and it will be like they never lived.....
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Orange Blooded [4747]
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Re: St Jude and Shriners' hospitals are filled with children
Nov 26, 2018, 1:30 PM
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Stop trolling. You're purposely creating a strawman that atheists are unfeeling nihilists. The truth of the matter is that most atheists believe that we create our own purpose in the world. What we do here on earth is what matters. It's the Christians who believe that this is just a trial run and what matters more is what happens after death, even though you have zero evidence that anything exists outside of the universe we inhabit.
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Orange Blooded [4995]
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Re: St Jude and Shriners' hospitals are filled with children
Nov 26, 2018, 2:11 PM
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Nope never said individually that atheist were like that. But their worldview does seem to suggest there is no meaning in the universe does it not?
And if you are correct that we all create our own purpose does this mean people like Hitler are justified in their actions?
Who are you to say they are wrong?
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Orange Blooded [4747]
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Re: St Jude and Shriners' hospitals are filled with children
Nov 26, 2018, 2:29 PM
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All purposes are not for the betterment of humanity; I think you know this and are still trolling.
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Orange Blooded [4995]
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Re: St Jude and Shriners' hospitals are filled with children
Nov 26, 2018, 3:01 PM
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Hitler thought he was bettering humanity.
If there is no God and therefor no ultimate standard who are you to judge what another person decides?
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Standout [345]
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Re: St Jude and Shriners' hospitals are filled with children
Nov 26, 2018, 7:39 PM
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You don’t need god to have morality. No power has to exist to determine that I don’t want to be mugged or killed so maybe I shouldn’t do it to someone else.
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Orange Blooded [4995]
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Re: St Jude and Shriners' hospitals are filled with children
Nov 27, 2018, 9:26 PM
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Do you not see how your worldview contradicts what you are saying here?
If there is no God and we all spun into existence out of nothing where did this sense of morality come from?
"It evolved" is not an answer. It's even worse than "God did it".
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Orange Blooded [4747]
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Re: St Jude and Shriners' hospitals are filled with children
Nov 27, 2018, 10:02 PM
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Of course morality is a product of evolution. If every early human went around killing every other one, we wouldn't be here having this discussion. Empathy and altruism are ingrained in us because we are better able to survive with the help of others. It's why people without these traits are considered aberrations - we call them psychopaths.
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Orange Blooded [4995]
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Re: St Jude and Shriners' hospitals are filled with children
Nov 27, 2018, 11:21 PM
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I’m not buying that because it goes against what we know about human behavior. We are very selfish creatures who seemingly just look out for ourself for the most part....but we know we SHOULD help each other. Why? Why should I give a rats butt about my neighbor when he’s just a cosmic accident that will eventually die and be forgotten?
In the naturalistic worldview we are nothing more than ants....
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Orange Blooded [4747]
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Re: St Jude and Shriners' hospitals are filled with children
Nov 28, 2018, 5:32 PM
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It seems to me that most atheists are infinitely more moral than you are. You need to be told to do what's right, we just do it even though there's no sky-daddy telling us to do good things so we'll get a gold house in the afterlife.
I'll also add that I'm going to go ahead and bet that you know next to nothing about the academic field of human behavior.
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Orange Blooded [4995]
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Re: St Jude and Shriners' hospitals are filled with children
Nov 28, 2018, 6:20 PM
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It seems you’ve completely missed the point. It’s not that people who believe in God have better morals, it’s that we as humans have them because there is a God. That’s a popular argument anyway amongst people a lot smarter than you and I.
I took a semester of psych 101 at York Tech so yes I’m sort of an expert in the field....
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Orange Blooded [4747]
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Re: St Jude and Shriners' hospitals are filled with children
Nov 29, 2018, 4:58 PM
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Well, at least now we know where your degree came from.
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Oculus Spirit [81078]
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That's an interesting redirection,
Nov 27, 2018, 3:14 PM
[ in reply to Re: St Jude and Shriners' hospitals are filled with children ] |
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but it certainly doesn't divert from what I said.
The children who die from painful terrible diseases because an uncaring God deemed it to be so certainly never caused God, nor anyone else any harm.
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Oculus Spirit [81078]
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Orange Blooded [4995]
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Re: Everybody says they want to go to heaven
Nov 26, 2018, 12:02 PM
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It's telling that we love each other so much that we don't want to be separated. Where did that come from? The Bible teaches that we were made in the image of God. The fact that we find the ability to love and do good in a world that is so hostile and evil is consistent with what you'd expect if the world was created by a good God who gave us free will.
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Oculus Spirit [81078]
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Its free will until you do something that God doesn't like
Nov 27, 2018, 3:13 PM
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And then you burn in a fiery hell for all eternity.
And whatever it is "he" doesn't like apparently can be just about anything. But it doesn't matter; you were never good enough no matter what decisions and choices you make.
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Orange Blooded [4995]
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Re: Its free will until you do something that God doesn't like
Nov 27, 2018, 9:31 PM
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The book I linked to in the OP discusses the subject of hell in depth. A lot of people outside the fire and brimstone southern baptist denomination do not believe in a literal fiery hell, and they have good reason not to as the language used indicates Jesus was speaking figuratively.
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Oculus Spirit [81078]
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Religion very much seems to e whatever one feels like
Nov 27, 2018, 10:30 PM
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believing, seemingly a la carte.
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Orange Blooded [4995]
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Re: Religion very much seems to e whatever one feels like
Nov 27, 2018, 11:13 PM
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No doubt but in the case of hell even those that do not believe in literal fire will say you don’t want to be there because God is not there.
If you can imagine a world with all the pain suffering but no good, no love, where nobody cares for each other....that’s what I think a Godless world and what hell would be like. And it seems to me that would be what you would have if the world evolved naturally. C.S Lewis wrote a book called The Great Divorce in which he describes what he thinks hell is like and he argues that the people who are there don’t want to leave.
Also, the Bible says “God makes the sun shine and the rain fall on the just and the unjust”....and that’s another thing that is consistent with the world we live in. Pretty much all other religions claim that you can be rewarded for your good works.
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Oculus Spirit [81078]
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A godless world is just like the one you live in.
Nov 28, 2018, 10:29 AM
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Identical in fact.I certainly don't think it's hell. It's just daily life, with all the ups and downs of anyone else's life, whether they believe or not.
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Orange Blooded [4995]
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Re: A godless world is just like the one you live in.
Nov 28, 2018, 10:47 AM
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I don’t think so. I think God represents all the good that’s in the world, just like the verse I quoted says he does.
If we evolved naturally I don’t think there would be much good in the world if at all and the million dollar question.....
Why is our planet the only one in our universe that supports life? Everything else we can see out there is hostile to it. And where did the information come from to for positive gene mutations? Everywhere else in our world that you find information you find intelligence behind it.....
So you have a world view full of questions, I have a world view full of questions however, my world view has much more evidence pointing to it being true:
1. The vast amount of information needed for the complex systems that make up our world that points to an intelligent designer
2. The universal moral standard. Where did it come from?
3. The historical proof for Jesus and the prophecies fulfilled
4. The human experience. We are personal beings with longings that nature itself cannot fulfill.
Those are just off the top of my head. The book I linked goes into more detail and points out more....
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Oculus Spirit [81078]
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I gotta tell ya, I skipped to the bottom of all that.
Nov 28, 2018, 4:29 PM
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And i have no idea what this means
" We are personal beings with longings that nature itself cannot fulfill. "
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Orange Blooded [4995]
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Re: I gotta tell ya, I skipped to the bottom of all that.
Nov 28, 2018, 4:53 PM
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It’s called the argument from desire.
Argument from desire
If and when we desire, we do so because what we desire exists prior to our desiring it. Religion at its basic level could be defined as a desire to please or appease a Supreme Being. Therefore this Supreme Being must exist.
"The Christian says, 'Creatures are not born with desires unless satisfaction for those desires exists. A baby feels hunger: well, there is such a thing as food. A duckling wants to swim: well, there is such a thing as water. Men feel sexual desire: well, there is such a thing as sex. If I find in myself a desire which no experience in this world can satisfy, the most probable explanation is that I was made for another world. If none of my earthly pleasures satisfy it, that does not prove that the universe is a fraud. Probably earthly pleasures were never meant to satisfy it, but only to arouse it, to suggest the real thing. If that is so, I must take care, on the one hand, never to despise, or be unthankful for, these earthly blessings, and on the other, never to mistake them for the something else of which they are only a kind of copy, or echo, or mirage. I must keep alive in myself the desire for my true country, which I shall not find until after death; I must never let it get snowed under or turned aside; I must make it the main object of life to press on to that other country and to help others do the same.'"
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Oculus Spirit [81078]
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Yeah, thats sort of what I figured.
Nov 28, 2018, 5:01 PM
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That's a load of crap. It's "wanting for the spiritual" or some such nonsense, and people aren't innately born with that.
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Orange Blooded [4747]
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Orange Blooded [4995]
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Re: I've seen it done. The question was about bad things
Nov 26, 2018, 2:04 PM
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Now Bob you know you can't just pull one line out of an entire book and ignore the context. Other translations render it "calamity" or "disaster" and verse 45:9 says "Woe to him who quarrels with his Master" clearly referring to God's coming judgement on those who reject him.
This is in no way saying God created the evil in the world.
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Orange Blooded [4747]
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Re: I've seen it done. The question was about bad things
Nov 26, 2018, 2:30 PM
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Whether you use a translation that says "evil," "disaster," or "calamity," God himself still says that he is responsible for the bad things in the world. Stop trolling.
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Orange Blooded [4995]
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Re: I've seen it done. The question was about bad things
Nov 26, 2018, 2:58 PM
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That's not what the passage says at all. Here's the entire thing. Even if you just take the single verse you quoted it still doesn't say "I created the evil in the world". It is saying I will create calamity for those who oppose Israel....
The Lord says this to Cyrus, his anointed, whose right hand I have grasped to subdue nations before him and disarm[a] kings, to open doors before him, and even city gates will not be shut: 2 “I will go before you and level the uneven places; I will shatter the bronze doors and cut the iron bars in two. 3 I will give you the treasures of darkness and riches from secret places, so that you may know that I am the Lord. I am the God of Israel, who calls you by your name. 4 I call you by your name, for the sake of my servant Jacob and Israel my chosen one. I give a name to you, though you do not know me. 5 I am the Lord, and there is no other; there is no God but me. I will strengthen[c] you, though you do not know me, 6 so that all may know from the rising of the sun to its setting that there is no one but me. I am the Lord, and there is no other. 7 I form light and create darkness, I make success and create disaster; I am the Lord, who does all these things.
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Orange Blooded [4995]
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All-In [26968]
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It's true, but you don't always tell every truth
Nov 26, 2018, 8:55 AM
[ in reply to I've seen it done. The question was about bad things ] |
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to every person in every situation. That's not edifying in that situation. On a message board, when we are talking at a high, philosophical level, it is edifying.
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CU Medallion [60063]
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Re: Tell that to a grieving parent.
Nov 26, 2018, 12:43 PM
[ in reply to Tell that to a grieving parent. ] |
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I have had a tough time this year after losing both my parents within 8 months of each other. They both were devout Christians and were just good people to everyone that they met and amazing parents. They gave so much money to the church and my mom would give money to any fire or police benevolence that would call her and ask for money. Just a kind hearted lady and my dad was just a paper mill worker/farmer moving through this life helping anyone that needed it.
I cannot understand why they both had to die at 67. Makes zero sense. I know I shouldnt do this, but I know people that are just terrible, nasty people, constantly drunk, constantly mean to others....in their 60's/70's and they are just as healthy as can be....I just don't get it. Not that I want them to die, I just dont understand why it had to be my parents.
I struggle everyday with this type of thinking around faith. I never understood it till I lost them both, now I get it 110%.
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Heisman Winner [111733]
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Re: Tell that to a grieving parent.
Nov 26, 2018, 10:13 PM
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sorry dude, my love and respect to you.
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All-In [42203]
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Re: There's a problem with the question: it's loaded.
Nov 26, 2018, 8:53 AM
[ in reply to There's a problem with the question: it's loaded. ] |
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And this answer also makes me less inclined to subscribe to the faith. A religion that says we're all unrighteous no thanks?
I don't buy that when I covered the story of those two little boys who drowned years ago when one brother went into the pond to save his younger brother.
And I don't buy that after seeing all the wonderful things that young woman did for others before she died in a car accident caused by another idiot who gets to live and party and post pics of himself in bars on Facebook.
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Orange Blooded [4995]
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Re: There's a problem with the question: it's loaded.
Nov 26, 2018, 9:04 AM
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I would love to sit here and go back and forth with you on this but I'd rather you just read the book because you sound just like the agnostic father and there's nothing wrong with that. It just takes a little change of perspective.
I will say that one thing that satisfies me when it comes to this problem of pain is that if there was no chance that I'd lose someone close to me I don't think I could fully experience the love between us.
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Oculus Spirit [81078]
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That's a pretty big bag of bricks to carry around.
Nov 26, 2018, 10:19 AM
[ in reply to Re: There's a problem with the question: it's loaded. ] |
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No matter what you do, you're never good enough.
Then why even try? What's the point?
When this theory of God's little game with humans comes up, it always reminds me of Ginsberg's version of the laws of Thermodynamics:
Zeroth law: There is a game First law: You can't win Second Law: You can't break even Third Law: You can't even get out of the game.
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All-In [26968]
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All-In [48078]
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Re: A more appropriate question is
Nov 26, 2018, 9:24 AM
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The real answer is because there is no God , but if there was a God, that God doesn't control those things.
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Orange Blooded [4995]
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Re: A more appropriate question is
Nov 26, 2018, 10:21 AM
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If you come to the conclusion that the world spun into existence out of nothing with no one creating it you have a lot more to explain away than the theist.
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Heisman Winner [111733]
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Re: A more appropriate question is
Nov 26, 2018, 10:22 AM
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no, not really. An atheist has no problem admitting that our existence is far too complicated for our species to ever understand, and does not bother trying, where the person of faith fills in the blanks however they see fit.
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Orange Blooded [4995]
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Re: A more appropriate question is
Jul 10, 2019, 10:23 AM
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Or maybe the theist is just following the evidence?
One interesting argument this book brings up is the anthropological argument which basically says that we have longings and desires as humans that nature itself cannot explain. The need to love, be accepted, etc....
How would this consciousness and self awareness be present in a universe that is so hostile to life?
The only explanation that makes sense when you take into account our experience as humans is that a similar being created us....
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Heisman Winner [111733]
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Re: A more appropriate question is
Nov 26, 2018, 10:42 AM
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in our case, about 3 million years of evolution made us adaptable to almost any environment. And really we are not all that self aware, we think we are and invent cool stories trying to explain our existence, but in the end they are just stories carried down through hundreds of generations. And if not for the discovery of fossil fuels, our global population would be about 1/10, at best, of what it is now.
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Orange Blooded [4995]
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Re: A more appropriate question is
Nov 26, 2018, 10:58 AM
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So why are we the only speck in the universe where all these astronomical odds can be overcome time and time again?
And how could we possibly evolve into creatures that love each other and put meaning to our lives in such a hostile world that is simply about the survival of the fittest?
It only makes sense when you apply a creator who reflects our human nature to the equation.
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Heisman Winner [111733]
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Re: A more appropriate question is
Nov 26, 2018, 12:15 PM
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Animals that all hated each did not least long on the evolutionary chain. The chemical response we attribute as love insures the survival of our species, because unlike other animals, we as parents have to care for ours until at least 12 years which is a commitment not necessary with other species of animal which are mature and self sufficient in under a year. If we had a genetic disposition to abandon our children after a year, our species would die off in a 3 generations.
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Orange Blooded [4995]
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Re: A more appropriate question is
Nov 26, 2018, 12:29 PM
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And where does the information come from for all these positive chemical reactions?
The cause is always more complex than the effect. There's nowhere in the universe that you find information that didn't come from an intelligent source....
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Standout [345]
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Re: A more appropriate question is
Nov 26, 2018, 7:49 PM
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God(s) has been the answer to every single element of the human existence/experience and the world in general until we learned enough to explain how it actually worked. Not understanding is not proof of a higher power.
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Heisman Winner [111733]
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Re: A more appropriate question is
Nov 26, 2018, 7:59 PM
[ in reply to Re: A more appropriate question is ] |
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you did not read past chemical reponses, Ok. The point I was making is that we are unique from other animals because we take longer to mature into adulthood. That is the price we pay for our intelligence and that commitment to rearing, love.
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Orange Blooded [4995]
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Re: A more appropriate question is
Nov 28, 2018, 11:42 AM
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And you ignored my previous question of where the information for these chemical responses come from....
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Re: A more appropriate question is
Nov 26, 2018, 10:28 AM
[ in reply to Re: A more appropriate question is ] |
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I didn't say the world was created out of nothing. I can't explain how the world was created. No human can. That's part of the reason man wrote all the BS in the Bible and invented the concept of God. We are just trying to explain things beyond our comprehension and that we don't understand.
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Orange Blooded [4995]
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Re: A more appropriate question is
Nov 26, 2018, 10:53 AM
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And what about the prophecies in the Old Testament fulfilled by Jesus? You can’t chalk those up to man made BS because we have copies before his lifetime. You’ll say well they made it look like Jesus fulfilled them.....
And they died for this lie? And even though the Romans and Jews were hell bent on stomping this new religion out nobody stepped up and said these guys are full of ####? They didn’t do that they just started killing them for some reason even though there were many religions that people were freely allowed to practice in the Roman Empire.
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All-In [48078]
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Re: A more appropriate question is
Nov 26, 2018, 11:39 AM
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There prophecies fulfilled. It's all BS. The Bible and the hype around it are man made BS. If there is a God, the Bible has nothing to do with it. The Bible is just bad fiction generally.
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Orange Blooded [4995]
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Re: A more appropriate question is
Nov 26, 2018, 11:50 AM
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66 different books, 40 different authors, 1500 years, several different cultures....yet it tells one complete story of the same God and his interaction with humanity. It has been shown to be accurate through archaeology and consistent with the time periods and cultures it describes time and time again Carl. Like I said you've got a lot more to explain away than me.....
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All-In [48078]
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Re: A more appropriate question is
Nov 26, 2018, 11:56 AM
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It's nonsense and bs written by charlatans, nuts, or authors desperate to believe, writing to other people in need who will believe anything for various reasons. That said, I don't mind Christianity. I am glad you believe. It seems it has made you a good person whether it is a bunch of bs or not,
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Orange Blooded [4995]
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Re: A more appropriate question is
Nov 26, 2018, 12:10 PM
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Well that goes against everything we know about it through historical, archaeological data, and human nature in general.
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Oculus Spirit [93703]
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Re: Define faith?***
Nov 26, 2018, 1:08 PM
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Trusting our secondary to do well vs Tua in the national title game.
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Oculus Spirit [93703]
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Why do I need to define faith?***
Nov 27, 2018, 12:22 AM
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Oculus Spirit [93703]
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I'm just wondering what you think faith is.***
Nov 27, 2018, 7:22 AM
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