Replies: 44
| visibility 1,173
|
Orange Blooded [2693]
TigerPulse: 97%
Posts: 3411
Joined: 7/3/07
|
|
|
|
All-In [46825]
TigerPulse: 100%
Posts: 30733
Joined: 8/11/15
|
You can't believe what he says. He's a never trumper***
Nov 20, 2019, 9:08 AM
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Lot o points [155973]
TigerPulse: 100%
Posts: 65839
Joined: 5/6/13
|
wait..........so now there's quid pro quo,
Nov 20, 2019, 9:10 AM
|
|
but it had nothing to do with javelin missiles, just if the guy could make an official visit to the US?
I'm getting dizzy these goal posts are moving so fast. This is the biggest "throw it against the wall and hope it sticks" shidshow I've ever seen.
|
|
|
|
|
Orange Blooded [2693]
TigerPulse: 97%
Posts: 3411
Joined: 7/3/07
|
Cause you aren't focused. It's time for you to lock in.***
Nov 20, 2019, 9:24 AM
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
CU Medallion [56106]
TigerPulse: 100%
Posts: 31650
Joined: 8/27/02
|
|
|
|
|
CU Medallion [56106]
TigerPulse: 100%
Posts: 31650
Joined: 8/27/02
|
They're trying to pin him down on this right now.***
Nov 20, 2019, 10:58 AM
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
All-In [26968]
TigerPulse: 96%
Posts: 44823
Joined: 7/6/10
|
To me, just the fact there may have been "quid pro quo"
Nov 20, 2019, 9:26 AM
|
|
Doesn't mean the President should be impeached. This is the gist of that Mnuchin presser a while back, where I thought he made reasonable points, but many people took it as some "admission of a crime". It seems like "quid pro quo" would be a relatively common thing...that's a large part of what diplomacy is.
|
|
|
|
|
All-In [26968]
TigerPulse: 96%
Posts: 44823
Joined: 7/6/10
|
Sorry, Mulvaney, not Mnuchin.***
Nov 20, 2019, 9:28 AM
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
All-In [46825]
TigerPulse: 100%
Posts: 30733
Joined: 8/11/15
|
To me it isn't the QPQ or bribery or extortion or whatever
Nov 20, 2019, 9:29 AM
[ in reply to To me, just the fact there may have been "quid pro quo" ] |
|
synonym you want to use.
It's that he used his leverage to push a foreign government to investigate his political rival.
If he would have went through the FBI/DOJ or anything like that we wouldn't be here.
But because he used our country's leverage to personally help his political campaign, I have a problem with that.
|
|
|
|
|
All-In [26968]
TigerPulse: 96%
Posts: 44823
Joined: 7/6/10
|
The key is the motive.
Nov 20, 2019, 9:31 AM
|
|
If he did it for personal gain, then that's the potentially impeachable part, to me.
It's not about the existence of "quid pro quo," to me. It's whether the President knowingly and intentionally put his personal interests ahead of that of the nation.
If he was trying to do something good for the United States of America, then he should do all the quid pro quo he needs to do that.
If he was trying to do something good for himself at the expense of the nation, then he shouldn't quid pro quo a single nickel.
|
|
|
|
|
All-In [40353]
TigerPulse: 100%
Posts: 23466
Joined: 7/13/12
|
agreed on the motive and intent
Nov 20, 2019, 9:41 AM
|
|
the interesting thing to me is that Biden isn't even the democratic nominee for President.
It can be assumed that it is campaign related, but how do you prove that?
|
|
|
|
|
All-In [26968]
TigerPulse: 96%
Posts: 44823
Joined: 7/6/10
|
Exactly. Prove it.
Nov 20, 2019, 10:10 AM
|
|
Really, I suppose they don't need to "prove" anything to impeach, but you better have a strong case. But it would certainly be need to prove it for removal from office, via Senate. Of course, in that portion, we would hopefully see the President questioned directly by Senators.
|
|
|
|
|
All-In [28802]
TigerPulse: 100%
Posts: 58393
Joined: 11/14/03
|
It's almost impossible for me to believe...
Nov 20, 2019, 1:09 PM
|
|
that Trump did this for non-campaign/non-domestic politics related reasons. However, I don't know if they'll even find somebody to say that this is the only reason why Trump wanted to do this, both because of loyalty and because Trump confuses his personal good with the good of the country.
|
|
|
|
|
CU Guru [1405]
TigerPulse: 54%
Posts: 3412
Joined: 1/10/13
|
Re: agreed on the motive and intent
Nov 20, 2019, 1:18 PM
[ in reply to agreed on the motive and intent ] |
|
If someone is standing over a murder victim with the murder weapon, it can be assumed that the person holding the thin is there murderer even if you didn't witness it. The idea that it wasn't for Trump's personal gain is laughable.
|
|
|
|
|
110%er [6101]
TigerPulse: 85%
Posts: 10117
Joined: 11/1/11
|
Re: The key is the motive.
Nov 20, 2019, 10:09 AM
[ in reply to The key is the motive. ] |
|
I haven’t seen any evidence of personal interest motivation. Going after a Democrat candidate running for the democratic nomination who’s 1) running 3rd place among the field, 2) can’t fill a phone booth with interested voters doesn’t cut it. Hunter Biden was under investigation way before any of this started, until Joe has the prosecutor fired in a brazen display of bribery.
|
|
|
|
|
All-In [28802]
TigerPulse: 100%
Posts: 58393
Joined: 11/14/03
|
Problem is, Trump confuses those two goods
Nov 20, 2019, 1:07 PM
[ in reply to The key is the motive. ] |
|
Not sure he even thinks about whether there could be a difference between what's personally good for him and what's good for the country. If Ukraine wasn't doing what he wanted, then that must be because Ukraine is corrupt and in conspiracy against his agenda- which is making American great again. Therefore, whoever crosses Trump must hate America. You see this calculus with his fans all the time, and even your clear headed way of seeing this won't do anything about those people.
|
|
|
|
|
Oculus Spirit [97746]
TigerPulse: 100%
Posts: 64879
Joined: 7/13/02
|
He can't go through the FBI or the DOJ
Nov 20, 2019, 1:20 PM
[ in reply to To me it isn't the QPQ or bribery or extortion or whatever ] |
|
Because the corruption he wanted investigated happened on foreign soil, in a foreign country. WE CAN NOT INVESTIGATE THAT. The FBI and DOJ have absolutely zero jurisdiction or authority to do #### in Ukraine. The State Department, through diplomatic channels (USING OUR AID AS LEVERAGE) can. So can the President. Only two ways Biden's son could ever be investigated. MUST be done by Ukraine.
What subject is in decline in the US more than History? You guessed it, civics. Followed by financial literacy education, which is non-existent.
|
|
|
|
|
All-In [28802]
TigerPulse: 100%
Posts: 58393
Joined: 11/14/03
|
In fact, they could've coordinated with Ukraine
Nov 20, 2019, 1:38 PM
|
|
This happens all the time. There's no reason why the president personally needed to talk to Zelensky about this, on their first phone call, while withholding aid against the advice of the military and the diplomats.
|
|
|
|
|
Oculus Spirit [97746]
TigerPulse: 100%
Posts: 64879
Joined: 7/13/02
|
Ukraine has to investigate. Period.
Nov 20, 2019, 2:15 PM
|
|
They can coordinate all they want. They (FBI) can't go knocking on doors, or interviewing witnesses, or anything. But if Ukraine doesn't want to, then you get a Presidential call and a quid pro quo. Just like Ukraine didn't want to fire the prosecutor, so Biden did a quid pro quo. Same thing. Either way Ukraine has to do the investigation. We can only extort with our money. We do it all around the world.
|
|
|
|
|
Orange Blooded [2693]
TigerPulse: 97%
Posts: 3411
Joined: 7/3/07
|
|
|
|
|
Oculus Spirit [97746]
TigerPulse: 100%
Posts: 64879
Joined: 7/13/02
|
Hush with your thoughtfulness and logic.
Nov 20, 2019, 1:15 PM
[ in reply to To me, just the fact there may have been "quid pro quo" ] |
|
We spread $50,000,000,000 taxpayer dollars among 200 different countries EVERY YEAR. At no time, ever, has a President or our government EVER demanded a quid pro quo. We toss our money around and then tell each country "Here you go. Do with this what you please. We're just so happy to be able to give you money."
|
|
|
|
|
110%er [6101]
TigerPulse: 85%
Posts: 10117
Joined: 11/1/11
|
Re: Trump's dog just turned on him
Nov 20, 2019, 9:42 AM
|
|
Don’t confuse common requests for favors when money is being handed out, for improper behavior. This has been normal political practice for decades and doesn’t rise to the level of an impeachable offense. Besides, the new catch word being applied is “bribery”, so you have to look for more severe violations rather than simple quid pro quo
|
|
|
|
|
Heisman Winner [137983]
TigerPulse: 100%
Posts: 63822
Joined: 10/22/00
|
Talk about moving goalposts.***
Nov 20, 2019, 9:57 AM
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
All-In [40353]
TigerPulse: 100%
Posts: 23466
Joined: 7/13/12
|
we did not think at the time that what we were doing was
Nov 20, 2019, 9:42 AM
|
|
improper
|
|
|
|
|
Orange Blooded [2693]
TigerPulse: 97%
Posts: 3411
Joined: 7/3/07
|
"We thought we were just putting jews on the train to Paris"***
Nov 20, 2019, 10:11 AM
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
All-In [28802]
TigerPulse: 100%
Posts: 58393
Joined: 11/14/03
|
Sweet, a Holocaust comparison
Nov 20, 2019, 12:57 PM
|
|
Withholding aid to get Ukraine to investigate Hunter Biden is just like killing millions of Jews.
|
|
|
|
|
Oculus Spirit [81078]
TigerPulse: 100%
Posts: 56152
Joined: 9/13/04
|
It always goes there***
Nov 20, 2019, 1:25 PM
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Orange Blooded [2693]
TigerPulse: 97%
Posts: 3411
Joined: 7/3/07
|
|
|
|
|
110%er [6101]
TigerPulse: 85%
Posts: 10117
Joined: 11/1/11
|
Re: Trump's dog just turned on him
Nov 20, 2019, 9:58 AM
|
|
Sondland just confirmed:
-Ukraine is corrupt -Pause the aid, let’s first see if the new guy is the real deal -Zelinski seems to be a good guy -Aid gets released
|
|
|
|
|
Oculus Spirit [93681]
TigerPulse: 100%
Posts: 95429
Joined: 12/25/09
|
What did Trump offer for quid pro quo?
Nov 20, 2019, 10:23 AM
|
|
A visit to the Whitehouse is replacing the accusation that he held up gov funding for Ukraine? I'd call that a downgrade comparable to downgrading a hit and run to jaywalking.
You're going to impeach the POTUS over asking for something to grant a Whitehouse visit? I heard he spit on the sidewalk and didn't rise when a lady entered the room one time. Oh, the ketchup on steak should be on the list of his lawless behavior too.
|
|
|
|
|
Standout [347]
TigerPulse: 84%
Posts: 1062
Joined: 7/1/19
|
To be fair, ketchup on steak should be an impeachable offense.***
Nov 20, 2019, 10:27 AM
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Oculus Spirit [93681]
TigerPulse: 100%
Posts: 95429
Joined: 12/25/09
|
I'm forced to agree.***
Nov 20, 2019, 10:35 AM
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
All-In [49058]
TigerPulse: 100%
Posts: 38820
Joined: 12/31/97
|
|
|
|
|
Legend [17297]
TigerPulse: 100%
Posts: 14242
Joined: 12/14/98
|
|
|
|
|
110%er [6101]
TigerPulse: 85%
Posts: 10117
Joined: 11/1/11
|
Re: What did Trump offer for quid pro quo?
Nov 20, 2019, 10:35 AM
[ in reply to What did Trump offer for quid pro quo? ] |
|
This is all more drama to feed to the media. Quid pro quo isn’t even an impeachable offense, yet his carefully delivered testimony is somehow making a case for impeachment. And they’re scared to death of Giuliani. He’s running around with signed affidavits from Ukrainian officials that proves this whole thing is a lie.
|
|
|
|
|
110%er [6101]
TigerPulse: 85%
Posts: 10117
Joined: 11/1/11
|
Re: What did Trump offer for quid pro quo?
Nov 20, 2019, 10:38 AM
|
|
And what the hell is this from yesterday? Was a note passed to Vidman?
https://youtu.be/kBGd2ue2dIY
|
|
|
|
|
All-In [26968]
TigerPulse: 96%
Posts: 44823
Joined: 7/6/10
|
I think he should be impeached if he offered
Nov 20, 2019, 10:44 AM
[ in reply to What did Trump offer for quid pro quo? ] |
|
Ukraine a pencil in exchange for a personal favor.
I think he should not be impeached if he threatened to withhold every single dollar of aid, in exchange for a legitimate national interest.
|
|
|
|
|
Oculus Spirit [93681]
TigerPulse: 100%
Posts: 95429
Joined: 12/25/09
|
I'd have to look at the transcript but it seems he...
Nov 20, 2019, 10:50 AM
|
|
asked for a favor. If I'm remembering he said 'do us a favor.' I'm not sure it was a personal favor or not and I doubt it could be considered as such.
I know that Bill Barr promised to look into the origin of the Russian collusion charges and I also know that Ukraine played a part in this by being in collusion with the DNC to out Maniford who was a Trump campaign guy at the time.
Imo, Trump pushed for an investigation but according to the transcript he was trying to get Barr's foot in the door which insist that any investigation would include a coordinated activity between Ukraine's justice department and the US justice department.
This is all much ado about nothing but that's the way of the world now.
|
|
|
|
|
All-In [28802]
TigerPulse: 100%
Posts: 58393
Joined: 11/14/03
|
No, he asked Ukraine to investigate two things...
Nov 20, 2019, 1:04 PM
|
|
1. The origin of the Russia investigation 2. Hunter Biden's involvement with Burisma, which he brought up as being related to Joe Biden, who he believed got the Ukrainian prosecutor fired for investigating Burisma.
The Justice Department could've done its own coordination with Ukraine, if it wanted to.
Do you truly believe in your heart that Donald Trump cared to much about corruption in Ukraine that he withheld crucial aid in order to get them to deal with corruption? Was the appearance of a conflict of interest important enough for the president to bring up during his first phone call with Zelensky? Was it important enough to withhold aid?
Lost in all of these legalistic defenses of Trump involving what's plausible is what we all know about Trump's narcissistic character, and his ignorance of norms. Yes, he was in part elected because he doesn't care about norms. But we should've all expected this kind of thing from him.
Maybe the fact that this is normal behavior for Trump is why some people think it's no big deal.
|
|
|
|
|
All-In [42197]
TigerPulse: 100%
Posts: 38274
Joined: 11/30/98
|
Do you realize how foolish you look?
Nov 20, 2019, 12:21 PM
[ in reply to What did Trump offer for quid pro quo? ] |
|
Sondland, who was involved in this, is flat out saying quid pro quo for military aid. He is testifying--under oath--that Trump ordered all of this top happen. And you continue to just say, "But... but... where's the quid pro quo?!"
How many people involved in this mess have to tell you that's what happened before you believe it?
Just stop. You're embarrassing yourself.
|
|
|
|
|
Hall of Famer [22393]
TigerPulse: 99%
Posts: 31289
Joined: 11/30/98
|
You can see the goalposts actually moving in this thread.
Nov 20, 2019, 10:29 AM
|
|
Predictably for some. For others, a BIT of a surprise.
|
|
|
|
|
110%er [6101]
TigerPulse: 85%
Posts: 10117
Joined: 11/1/11
|
|
|
|
|
Hall of Famer [22393]
TigerPulse: 99%
Posts: 31289
Joined: 11/30/98
|
Sonderland said he didn't believe Trump.
Nov 20, 2019, 11:04 AM
|
|
He hung up the phone still believing that it was definitely a "quid pro quo" and still believes it today.
|
|
|
|
|
Oculus Spirit [78892]
TigerPulse: 100%
Posts: 26424
Joined: 12/6/98
|
lol, I thought you were talking about a real dog***
Nov 20, 2019, 2:18 PM
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
110%er [9035]
TigerPulse: 100%
Posts: 9795
Joined: 4/27/13
|
"roughly"
Nov 20, 2019, 3:37 PM
|
|
|
|
|
|
Replies: 44
| visibility 1,173
|
|
|