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Jesus's Genealogy
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Jesus's Genealogy

4

Oct 31, 2023, 5:57 PM
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Jesus’s Genealogy


A previous thread branched off into Jesus’s genealogy, and I thought it was an interesting enough topic to split it off so it doesn’t get buried too deep in discussion.

Some people made some fine posts related to it, and attached some nice articles, but I wanted to get right down into the weeds and dig around in it.

In short, something is going on there, I just haven’t figured out what it is. So, I’ll consider this post a work in progress. It’s a mystery, and I do love mysteries.


We’ve got two genealogies to work with, Matt 1:1 and Luke 3:23. Matthew puts his right up front. It’s the very first thing he wants you to see and read; Jesus’s Davidic link. So, whoever Matthew’s intended readers were, I suppose that was a primary concern or issue for them.


Luke on the other hand puts his genealogy after Jesus’s birth. So he wants John the Baptist and Jesus’s birth to come first for his audience. Since there are only two to work with, it should be easy enough to line them up and see what we’ve got here.


I can see three distinct break points right off the bat, so I’ll break my spreadsheet into 3 chunks to take a closer look at each one:


Section 1 (I’ll paste multiple times so you don’t have to scroll back and forth.)


a1


Section one is the simplest. Matthew on the left, Luke on the right. Column C is consecutive generations, 1-14. Matthew makes a comment about 14 generations from a to b, 14 generations from c to d, etc. But it seems he fudged a bit, or at least double-dipped. We’ll get there in a second.

Column D is king numbers of the Unified Kingdom, and then Judah. Saul and Ish-bosh-eth would have been U1 and U2, but they’re not relevant here.

Column E is the people, F is the scripture. Colum G is consecutive generations from Adam. For instance, Abraham is 21st generation from Adam, and 1 for Matthew, so 21/1.

Matthew starts at Abraham, and Luke starts at Adam, but all that is irrelevant at the moment.


a1





The first important split in Jesus’s genealogy comes at David. (The lineage is identical prior to that.)

Matthew branches off through Solomon, the King’s branch. Luke branches off through Nathan. Both are kids from Bathsheba, and as far as I can tell, Luke’s branch is not priests or really anyone of importance.

In fact, most of those names mentioned through Nathan only appear once in the whole Bible, right here. Why did he go down that branch? That’s mystery #1. I have no idea.





Section #2 is the most interesting section.


a2



Matthew is trying real hard for his 14-14-14 symmetry. Maybe a little too hard. If you look at the kings in red (except Solomon), those are all kings of Judah that Matthew eliminated in his lineage. You can still read all about them in 2 Chronicles and 2 Kings, but Matthew doesn’t want them. Why? That’s mystery #2.


Here’s what’s going on politically:

Ahaiziah is the legit #6 King of Judah. No question about it. Son of the king becomes the king. But he marries the enemy. The daughter of the King of Israel, Omri. Her name is Athaliah. Oops. They have a son, Joash.

But King Ahaiziah dies early, and Joash is still a baby, so his mom, the enemy, becomes Queen Regent of Judah. Now, she is the rightful Queen, but she’s not of the line of David.

A true “Oh Shid” moment. Next she tries to kill baby Joash and the whole rest of the family, but gets killed herself. When that happens, Joash, of the line of David, becomes rightful king as he is still the son of the former king.

And Joash’s son, Amaziah, becomes rightful King of Judah also. But Matthew cuts the whole episode, and lineage, out. Why would he do that? Matthew is writing almost 900 years after that ugly episode. Nevertheless, those kings are not in Matthew’s lineage of Jesus. Mystery #3.


a2






Sure the wicked mom was of the Omri line from Israel, but her son, and her son’s son, were both rightful Davidic rulers. Finally, once the dust clears, Matthew includes Uzziah, king #10, without missing a beat.

Matthew even fudges by saying King #5 (Jehoram) was father of King #10 (Uzziah)

“Jehoram the father of Uzziah,” Matthew 1:8 NIV



But that is flatly contradicted by 2 Chronicles 26:1

“Then all the people of Judah took Uzziah, who was sixteen years old, and made him king in place of his father Amaziah.”


a2






And Matthew is contradicted again in 2 Kings 15:1

“In the twenty-seventh year of Jeroboam king of Israel, Azariah[a] (Uzziah),son of Amaziah king of Judah began to reign.”
[a] 2 Kings 15:1 Also called Uzziah;


a2



Uzziah (#10) is the son of Amaziah (#9), not the son of Jehoram (#5).

Now, one could “poetically” say that we are all the sons of Adam, or Seth, or Enosh. But if one is making a chronological list of kings, it’s best to stay either in poetry, or in prose, because mixing the two makes for a whole lot of unnecessary confusion.

And if one is doing it specifically to show royal lineage, like for Jesus, prose is better than poetry. Particularly when Matthew has the Old Testament he can flip right over to and review the line in both Kings and Chronicles.

Matthew then cuts out 2 more Kings, Jehoahaz (#17) and Jehoiakim (#18). Both these guys were legit, but 17 was deposed by the Egyptians in an alliance gone wrong, and 18 was killed by the Babylonians and not buried. Still, they were Kings of Judah in the line of David.


a2



Matthew also deletes another King of Judah from history down at Zedekiah, King #20. Zedekiah was placed on the throne of Judah as a puppet by Babylon but he revolted, watched his kids die, got his eyes poked out, and got hauled off in captivity 586 BCE. Poor guy. Why Matthew nixes him is mystery #4.





At this point, Matthew’s poetic 14-generation symmetry needs some massaging, so he double-counts Jeconiah (in light blue), counting him as the last of the second group of 14, and the first of the third group of 14. It’s possible that Jeconiah has a son named Jeconiah, and so there were two Jeconiah’s, but the Bible says he has 8 sons, and Jeconiah isn’t one of them. Mystery #5.

1 Chron 3:17 And the sons of [q]Jeconiah [r]were Assir, Shealtiel his son, 18 and Malchiram, Pedaiah, Shenazzar, Jecamiah, Hoshama, and Nedabiah.


a2






Zedekiah would prove to be the last king Israel (Judah or Israel) would ever have. The two Jesus genealogies briefly synch-up again at the Exile, with both Matthew and Luke tracing Jesus through Shealtiel and his son Zerubbabel (in orange.) Both were of the Davidic line, but neither would get a chance to be king. They make sense in Matthew’s line, but why Luke has two “would be kings” in his line of unknowns it yet another mystery, #6.


A3





And finally, after Zerubbabel, Matthew and Luke again diverge. Matthew goes through son Zerubbabel’s son Abihud, and Luke goes through Zerubbabel’s son Rhesa. And the only problem with that is that 1 Chron 3:17 doesn’t list Rhesa as a son of Jeconiah. The only time the name Rhesa appears in the Bible is in Luke’s lineage.

So, where did Rhesa come from? Mystery #7. And why split between Abihud and Rhesa? Mystery #8.


There’s still something missing though, because even with Matthew cutting out a handful of Kings of Judah, there’s still about 10 generations difference from when they synch at Zerubbabel, down to Jospeh and Jesus. What’s up with that? Mystery #9.


A3





So, there’s a little history on the topic but as always, it just seems to generate more questions than answers. Why two lines that touch and diverge, touch, and diverge? Why cut out some kings but not others? And who are all those people through Nathan, and how can they be counted as “royalty?” Nine juicy questions for those willing to take up the R&P Board challenge!

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Re: Jesus's Genealogy

2

Oct 31, 2023, 6:12 PM
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One quick edit:

I had a cut and paste error I missed with Rhesa. Rhesa's existence isn't a problem (He is listed, though only once.) So the only issue would be why Matthew and Luke spit between Abihud and Rhesa. Make that 8, not 9, questions <img border=">.

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Re: Jesus's Genealogy

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Oct 31, 2023, 8:12 PM
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I am of the persuasion that the genealogies are distinct to show a royal lineage through David and then another lineage through through Mary. The reason for Mary's lineage is to prove the matrilineal descent of Jesus. This establishes both His royalty and His Jewish decent - The Savior is of the Jews.

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John 3:16; 14:1-6


That is my understanding.

1

Nov 2, 2023, 4:19 PM
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There is aother important concepts to join to that and complete foundation for me. If it is generally known and accepted by all that x's is a son to son prodigy of Y then you just have to trace your family back to Y to show you are a descendant of X.

We're just not appreciating how much Jews knew about their family heritage 2000 years ago.

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Re: Jesus's Genealogy

1

Nov 1, 2023, 7:34 AM
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Fake. Didnt mention Heli. Unless I missed it. :)


Message was edited by: CUintulsa®


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Re: Jesus's Genealogy

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Nov 1, 2023, 10:41 AM
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He didn't mention that, but about the only possible solution I've heard would be the theory that Jacob and Heli were brothers, and that the biological father had died and the other took his wife and family.

That would still wouldn't make much sense though. If you're listing a genealogy you're gonna list the biological parent.

He did mention several problems for the inerrant view, particularly that matthew clearly made mistakes. What do you make of those?

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Re: Jesus's Genealogy

2

Nov 1, 2023, 12:00 PM
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There's a few big points I didn't list as I look at it all again.


1) It seems the whole genealogy angle was meant for Jews not for Gentiles. For instance, if I were a Roman considering converting to Christianity in 100 AD or so, I doubt I would give a whit about who was related to King David or not way over in Judea centuries ago. I'd either believe the message of personal salvation through Christ, or not.


2) Along those same lines, the genealogy seems like a defense against those who WOULD care, like educated priests in Jerusalem perhaps, who knew the Bible inside and out and were apt to critique the lineage of Jesus.


3) What I find most interesting about the 7 missing kings (which is fully 1/3 of the history of Judah), is that it was apparently not based on being "good or bad." That is, many of those kings listed were considered to terrible idol-worshippers who had abandoned God. So loyalty and obedience to God was not as much of a negative factor as having someone related to your cousins over in Samaria, through the House of Omri.

Joash and Amaziah were even considered to be GREAT kings of Judah for their loyalty to God, but they got axed because of their association with Omri, even though they were completely legit kings. Politics over religion in that case, it seems.


4) The fact that the lineage is double-sided is interesting, assuming the Nathan side goes through Mary, which it doesn't clearly say as far as I know. Any prophecy that I know of doesn't specify either side or a requirement for both.

And if it was stipulated by everyone that Joseph is NOT Jesus's biological dad, why provide a lineage for him at all? Who is Matthew trying to convince, and of what, and why?


5) The Zerubbabel connection is another oddity. He was very important in that he led the Exiles back from Babylon in 539 BCE or so, but how can he be in both lines? Matthew and Luke wanted him in their line, but he can't have been both a "son" of Solomon and a "son" of Nathan at the same time. So what is up with that?


So many good questions in all of this.

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Re: Jesus's Genealogy

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Nov 1, 2023, 4:35 PM
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Point #1 and #2 are spot on. Too many people are trying to make western ideas (in todays world) about genealogy shape what is written in Scripture (and for a Jewish Culture). Matthew, especially, is pointedly written to the Jews.

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John 3:16; 14:1-6


Re: Jesus's Genealogy

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Nov 1, 2023, 4:55 PM
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I’m slowly putting together a post ( first in my mind, and then in print, lol) about Jewish Christians. Because in those days, the very first Christians were of course all Jewish converts.

Long before Paul took the message on the road, Jews were following Jesus around with great interest. And what they might have thought about his words, in a Jewish context, vs how Christianity is presented and practiced today, I think would be fascinating to look at.

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Re: Jesus's Genealogy

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Nov 1, 2023, 2:20 PM
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Very interesting. While the Bible does not mention Jesus being married it also does not say he was not married. Some say Mary Magdalene was his wife. She traveled with him and was one of the few with him when he died on the cross, was with him when he was buried in the tomb, then saw the empty tomb and saw him after he rose again. The Bible also does mention him kissing her on the mouth.
Discuss

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Re: Jesus's Genealogy


Nov 1, 2023, 2:47 PM
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Yes. At some point I'll post on the Gospel of Mary, which is a real hoot. It's not canon, but it really shows Jesus as a man, at a minimum.

There's a passage where Peter I think, says, "Why do you kiss her differently than you kiss me?" Jesus has a semi-obscure answer, but basically he says "Because she's a woman and you're not, you dolt."

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Re: Jesus's Genealogy

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Nov 2, 2023, 10:44 AM
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"Why do you kiss her differently than you kiss me?"

Whoa...

The embarrassment factor and confusion this brings means it could possibly be historical.

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Re: Jesus's Genealogy


Nov 2, 2023, 12:07 PM
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It's actually a pretty funny read. Jesus's snippy side shows. Not as bad as losing his temper at the Temple, but there are a few times in the New Testament where he gets kinda terse or sharp at people.

This is one where he kinda mocks Peter in a low key, but funny way. It's very short, so I'll see if I can find it and post it.

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Re: Jesus's Genealogy

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Nov 2, 2023, 1:37 PM
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Jesus definitely disrespected his elders.

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Re: Jesus's Genealogy


Nov 2, 2023, 2:15 PM
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I think one could find a lot of evidence for that if they looked closely enough. That time period, while Jesus is teaching until he dies, is very intersting.

On the one hand, he says obey every iota of the Law, and on the other, he flagrantly violates it time and again, while he is alive. By the advice he gives to others, the food he eats, the company he keeps, etc.

Even his own family calls him crazy.


But that still doesn't mean he wasn't the Son of God, to his believers. Faith requires no evidence, otherwise it wouldn't be called faith. If one needs proof, then it's no longer a matter of faith.

But Jesus's actions are a curious blend of supporting the Law and skirting it. That might be a future post someday.

He wouldn't be alone either. You can go to almost any book in the Bible, and the prophets are griping about social issues...not looking after widows, or the young, or the sick; about corruption in the courts, in business, about prostitution. Every single gripe that has existed since man has walked the earth. All the same. And there is constant criticism that those in charge of the Law are not abiding by it themselves.

And that goes back to 1100 BCE and the Judges, through David, right on up to Jesus.

In that sense, those prophets are no different than Jesus in their message - social justice - it's just that they aren't claiming to be the Son of God, whereas he was.

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Re: Jesus's Genealogy

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Nov 2, 2023, 2:40 PM
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I wouldn’t necessarily agree with that definition of faith. God supposedly provided proof time and time again. Faith was counting on him to do it again and trust that his way was the right way.

Not just other biblical characters, people from all walks of life and religions were basically what Jesus was…someone defying the status quo.

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Re: Jesus's Genealogy

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Nov 2, 2023, 3:48 PM
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>I wouldn’t necessarily agree with that definition of faith. God supposedly provided proof time and time again.


Sure, I can see that. One of the things that strikes me when reading the Bible is that I'm not sure the writers of the OT have faith by my definition. Instead they have a word-view that is entirely and completely God-centric.


As an example, for years I've tried to find an explanation of why Einstein considered light to be the speed limit of the universe. The best answer I've ever found was that he didn't find a reason. He just said that it was, and built a world around that "fact." It's remarkably descriptive based on what we know and observe, but it's not as if he found some independent "proof" that light is the speed limit. He just said it was.

That's really no different than what pre-Copernicans did with establishing the earth as the center of the universe and defining everything, and I mean everything, around that "fact." And it worked for a long time, based on what we knew and observed at that time.

It one reads parts of the Old Testament closely enough, it's the same feel. No one "proves" that Yahweh is the center of all things, he simply is by definition. And so, when foreign nations attack Israel, it's not because of bad relations with those nations, or the aggressiveness of their leaders, it's Yahweh using those nations a whipping stick for Israel's transgressions against Yahweh.

It's a complete transference of blame from Assyria to Israel itself, by the Israeli prophets. The ancient version of "God sent that earthquake or hurricane to America because of America's sins. But with nations. Like God sent Japan to attack us at Pearl Harbor.

So Assyria didn't conquer the 10 tribes of Israel because Shalmaneser V was a brutal aggressor, he conquered them because he was a tool of God. Everything is in terms of the Jews obeying, or disobeying Yahweh. Shalmaneser doesn't have free will. He was steered by God to be the mechanism of Israel's defeat.

So is what the ancient Jews had faith, or was it a reality-creating assumption? Or is there a difference? I'm not really sure.

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Re: Jesus's Genealogy

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Nov 2, 2023, 5:36 PM
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Yes the Israelites along with everybody else attributed everything to their version of god. Now we seem to be headed away from that mindset as more and more people are turning away from religion. Our history as a species has been brutal and bloody but it is now the safest time in history to be alive and it seems to be mainly because we are moving away from fundamentalism. Evangelicals I guess would say that's what the bible predicts. I think people are just learning to get along regardless of race, nationality, or religion.

Faith seems to be a different thing to Christians than to Jews. Jesus said "blessed are those who believe without seeing". However in the Old Testament the Israelites supposedly saw God unequivocally act in history.

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Re: Jesus's Genealogy

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Nov 2, 2023, 12:14 PM
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Interesting. As a general comment - not specifically to you but in response to this type of discussion - I am going to say that it is easy to drift into the weeds when considering what truth is.

The further we get from 1963, the more people think someone other than Oswald killed Kennedy, with very little new evidence emerging over time. Today it is about 70% against. Almost no one has actually read the Warren Commission report, but almost everyone has read a conspiracy theory debunking the report. The magic bullet that hit Kennedy, rose 4 inches, moved sideways another 4 inches, entered Connelly, and was later found in 'pristine' condition? Everyone has heard about that. How many people know that the shot has been recreated and confirmed? Not being a whatabout, it didnt generate a new book.

We can't know who killed Kennedy for sure, but the evidence points to Oswald. As to conspiracies, it is not well known that his own wife said he hated, and was shooting at, Connelly: it's one line in the Commission report. So, until new actual evidence is found, it points to Oswald.

What best explains the existence of the NT documents? That has to be addressed from the starting point, not by whatabouts. Academic volumes have been produced for each of the relevant questions, such as:
- Do the available documents reasonably reflect the originals?
- Can authorship be reasonably determined, if not to a person, to place, time and community?
- Were the authors in a position to know the truth?
- Were they attempting to tell the truth?
- Do surrounding and subsequent circumstances support it as the truth?
- Do alternate explanations reasonably explain the documents' existence?

We are centuries beyond much of the work done to answer those questions. What most people know are only (1) the proposition that they are accurate and (2) a list of whatabouts. That is fine: there is more to a person deciding on the truth of those questions than forensic evidence. However, we do live in an era where the list of whatabouts defines truth - even chirping about 'literal' and 'inerrant' - though few if any of those address those questions. Whether its "You believe a dude walked on water", or "But we don't have the originals", or "that passage has a footnote saying not all documents contain that passage", or "that remembrance of an event doesn't exactly match in every detail that other guy's memory of an event", we are living in a world of whatabouts that do not actually address the question. We seem to believe that whatabout questions are answers, questions answering themselves. That is being in the weeds.

We can't dissect all that evidence here. However, many who major in whataboutism do not believe - usually do not know - evidence exists for affirmative answers to the above questions. It does. The evidence for the accuracy of those documents far outweighs the evidence that Oswald was the lone killer.

The genealogies are interesting to consider. Thinking that a few questions about them addresses the above questions is, imo, being in the weeds, not too far from writing a book about the blips found on a tape of an open mic on a cop's motorcycle at Dealey Plaza. Turned out it was echos, if my memory is correct.

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Re: Jesus's Genealogy

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Nov 2, 2023, 2:19 PM
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I don't disagree with any of that. And I also don't think that a genealogy has anything to do with whether Jesus was the son of God, either. As I've mentioned before, in my church the specific details of the various explanations of man were largely irrelevant. One believed, or one didn't.

But, the fact that Matthew put his genealogy right in front might show that it mattered to him, or at least to those he was directing his Gospel to.

My interest in in the historical situation at the time that compelled Matthew to do that. As I mentioned, it wouldn't surprise me in the least if Matthew didn't have an Old Testament sitting right on his desk as he was writing his Gospel. And he probably knew the Kings of Judah by memory, as did his readers, without even flipping to Kings and Chronicles.

That tells me that he was ok cutting 7 kings out, AND that his readers were fine with it too. There's no way he would present a genealogy that was false to people just as versed in scripture as he was.

It would be like me telling Clemson Nation that we won 3 national championships in the 90's. No one would believe it, and since they lived through it they would know it without a doubt. Actually, a better analogy would be if I listed all the Clemson coaches and just left out Hatfield and West. Clemson nation might just look around, nod in agreement, and say "Yeah, were fine with that. We can all collectively agree that never happened."


Sticking with the Gospels, let's say I'm a Jew in 50ish AD, and maybe I was even lucky enough to walk around some with Jesus twenty years earlier. Mark puts out his Gospel, without a genealogy, and it's well received in the community, and accurately portrays what a lot of people remember.

But those priests in Jerusalem won't stop nagging us. In fact, they are still sacrificing at the Temple (and would until 70 AD), still worshipping as normal, and still going about their daily routines as if nothing significant has happened. We see it clearly, but they don't. To them, it's just business as usual. And what's worse, they're attacking the guy who we know was the messiah by saying he doesn't have the creds to be a messiah. The fools!

I say "a messiah" because even the Jewish version of what a messiah is has changed over time. Cyrus, 500 years earlier, was called a messiah. Being Persian, he surely wasn't of the line of David. But now, in 2nd Temple times of 50 AD, correct lineage is a requirement.

So, Matthew sits down in 60 AD and says "I got this." And that's the first thing he lists out, a genealogy. First to silence priestly criticism of Jesus, and second to meet the new requirement of what a messiah is in 30AD vs 500 BCE. By this time Paul has set up churches all over Turkey, Greece, and Italy, among people who could care less about David line. They're not Jews, so it's the message, not the creds, that sell them on Jesus.

But the Jerusalem priests won’t stop. Now the gripe is "Well sure, Matthew gave a lineage back to David, but you Christians say Mary was a virgin, and since Joseph wasn't Jesus's biological dad, he STILL doesn't meet the current Jewish requirement of a messiah. Never mind that Paul is converting way more gentiles by now who just don't care about lineage. This is a fight between Jerusalem Jews and Temple priests.

So Luke sits down in about 70 AD and says "I got this." And he take the line through Mary, to counter the priest criticism that Joseph was a proxy dad. But to do that he has to give Mary sufficient cred too, so his Gospel begins with Jesus's birth and her role and background, and then he gets to Jesus’s genealogy though her. Most everyone who was alive then is dead now from old age, and the Temple has been destroyed by Rome, so his line can’t come under much criticism, because there’s no one left to criticize it.

By the time John comes along in 90ish AD, there is no Temple, and no priests to speak of, and most Christians are gentiles anyway, so nobody cares much about the line of David anymore. So he doesn't even address it in any way in his Gospel.


Now, that's all hypothetical, and I have no idea if it happened that way at all. And as I said at start, for me it's all human explanations to other humans, for their needs, independent of what may be reality. If Jesus was the son of God then he was, regardless of how someone tried to explain it or justify it to someone else for whatever reason.


But it is that human stuff that I find most fascinating. And trying to get into the minds of those guys, while they're making those decisions on what to say, and what not to say, and how to say it, is incredibly exciting.

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Re: Jesus's Genealogy

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Nov 2, 2023, 4:31 PM
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I'm with you. I hope I was clear that my response was not to your legit and interesting examination of those genealogies. We cant get a better understanding if people like you dont do that. I'm glad God created people like you who will do it. :)

Instead, I was thinking of people who look at that and go, "Aha! It's not absolutely correct down to the last comma, so it's all a conspiracy."

I used Oswald as an example because it is so controversial, with some compelling whatabouts, and with credible people reaching a different conclusion.

A clearer and more analogous case would be OJ, where an acquittal came not so much from whatabouts - the only defense OJ had - but because whatabouts gave the jury permission to follow ideology rather than evidence. The objective evidence all points to OJ, with none pointing anywhere else, but the jury chose this scenario: The police arrived after the fact or committed the murders themselves, somehow had OJ's blood and hair, and planted them at the scene. That is how deep in the weeds one can get by focusing on the size of a glove, or on the minor differences in wording by four people remembering one event. If one doesn't want to believe the conclusion, the most self affirming way to do it is to define whatabouts as evidence, even if it means standing on indefensible alternative explanations.

But that is not about your article, which was informative and fun, as all yours are.

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Re: Jesus's Genealogy

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Nov 2, 2023, 5:00 PM
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Thanks for your compliments and comments. Always glad to have them. Discussion is fun whether we agree or disagree. As I said long ago, I almost hope we disagree on some things because that often opens our eyes do different ways of viewing things. That's certainly been the case for me since the R&P board started.

On iotas and such, just at a functional level, any understanding of God, short of a direct experience, is subject to the filters that it must go through in translation. For instance, if I have an experience, you'll never get any closer to my experience than my ability to transmit it, by word or text, and secondly, through your own filter as you receive my message. That's the best we humans can do.

So in my mind one can box themselves into expecting more, or accept than men and their means are imperfect. God may or may not be perfect, but man certainly is not perfect. So I don't expect him to be in any context, including when he tries to explain God.

On OJ, Mrs. Fordt and I were totally wrapped up in all that mess, lol. She was far worse than I was, and I'm always into a good mystery. We actually went to the scene in Brentwood and walked the sidewalk where it happened, standing right by the front gate, which is just feet, like 4 or 5, from the sidewalk. Just barely enough room for two people to stand face-to-face and not be in the sidewalk itself.

What blew us away was how busy it was even at 10:00 at night, when we were there. People walking their dogs, cars passing by, it's in a surprisingly busy part of LA. But we both agree, the evidence was simply overwhelming. We still can't figure exactly how it happened with no one hearing, but all one needs is surprise, assertiveness, and a few seconds, I suppose.

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Re: Jesus's Genealogy

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Nov 2, 2023, 8:48 PM
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What impressions or conclusions did you draw while being there, other than the high traffic, if any?

We felt much the same way at Dealey Plaza in Dallas:
- 20-ish cars a minutes go over the 'X' painted on the road where the fatal shot hit. If you didn't know where you were, you wouldn't know anything had happened there.
- The entire scene is very small. The face of the school book building, the location of the car and the 'grassy knoll' all fit into a space that seems to be between 1/2 and 1 acre in size. Some people in town have lots the size of the scene.
- Grassy knoll is a misnomer. Is just a shallow rise in the terrain away from the street.
- Looking at and standing on the grassy knoll I thought, "No way." Very close to the car (30-40 feet?), very open and exposed, no way to do that unseen. "Everybody will be looking at Kennedy" isn't good enough: it's too close to the car, too open and exposed, and in the line of sight of too many people.
- From the 6th floor window looking down on the scene, I thought, "Can't be dismissed as a hard shot." I am not an experienced hunter - have hunted birds a dozen-ish times, deer half that - and it didn't seem like a hard shot.
- Besides the book building and the knoll, there is no other place for the shooter to be. While it is a very busy commercial area, the "Plaza" is a grassy 'Y' formed where two four-lane roads split (on the other side of the street from the "knoll"). Kennedy's car was traveling in its two lanes, with the two lanes for the opposite direction being on the other side of that grassy Y. The Plaza is therefore in the middle of an open area. Other than the school book building, the next nearest building or cover is hundreds of yards away.

Those were just my impressions, and as best as I remember it, not measured data. But the entire scene seemed very small.

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Re: Jesus's Genealogy

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Nov 2, 2023, 11:56 PM
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>But the entire scene seemed very small.

Same at the OJ scene, just very, very compact. So much so that we thought the only way to obscure the stabbing at the front gate would have been to park a van on the street to block the view. Now, the sides were obscured by foliage, so that helped obscure it, and it was dark, so that helped, and I suppose if OJ had scouted and picked his moment precisely that would help. Here's a couple pics.





Now, Goldman's body was found in that alcove just to the right, opposite where the small tree and mailbox are, behind the gate.

The blood shows the spot. Those tiles are 8x8 I think, which makes the gate not quite 3' wide. So two men standing face-to-face will fill up almost 1/2 of that walk space. And you can see the sidewalk in the bottom corner. Just incredibly tight. No room for a struggle, or delay, or discussion - just stab and push back into that corner. Here's a better shot of 2 man, and the sidewalk.




What you can't get from this is how close the adjacent homes are. They're stacked like brownstones...thin frontage and deep lots. Side by side along the sidewalk. Just a crazy unbelievable crime scene. I mean, if you screamed loudly in that alcove, dozens of people would hear you. The homes are that close, side by side and across the street., and across the back alley. Just packed with people. Here’s a few more pics





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Re: Jesus's Genealogy

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Nov 3, 2023, 12:05 AM [ in reply to Re: Jesus's Genealogy ]
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>We felt much the same way at Dealey Plaza in Dallas:

What was your take on the railroad bridge, or the knoll on the other side of the plaza? Looking at the Zapruder film I've often thought about those locations.


Like in the parking lot where the silver and white vans, and that green dumpster are, at bottom of pic.




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Re: Jesus's Genealogy

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Nov 3, 2023, 12:04 PM
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Wow, that really is small. I suppose some of that reaction is "you look taller on TV", but not all. Both scenes seem much smaller than the events would indicate. Yes, in the OJ scene, it had to have happened fast. I don't remember the nature of the wounds, but I would guess they were somewhat one-and-done, not an extended fight. Add surprise to a well known celebrity assailant, and one can see the reaction being slow. One would guess that the attack started with the gate still closed. And of course the footprints lead away from the entrance afterward, for the reasons you mentioned. I had never pictured it that way, so thank you for the photos and drawing. I had pictured an empty sidewalk running adjacent to an apartment building, like you typically see, but that was not the case at all. Thanks.

You ask a good question about the area on the other side of the Plaza. I wish I could remember that direction better. What I do remember is standing on the sidewalk where the last shot hit, and doing a 360, wondering where an assassin might be (like all the investigators and a zillion other people have done). That direction didn't strike me as a probable, but I can't remember why. One thing you already know is that the direction doesn't fit. The shot had to have come from behind/right or front/left (as looking at the car from front to back), so maybe I subconsciously eliminated the area you refer to. But I did notice how large the area becomes if you eliminate the school book building, the Grassy Knoll, and the area you mentioned: you go from half acre to hundreds of yards across.

I did walk from there up to the top of the grassy knoll. I think the 'picket fence' was no longer there, but regardless of that, it didn't seem probable. Anything can happen, but that seemed too close, too exposed, fence or no fence. An assassin couldn't predict that there wouldn't be a bunch of people standing right there. And there were some relatively close. Zapruder and Zitsman (sp) and a few other people were within 10 yards of the possible shooter location. Very risky. On the other hand, there are no good photos of that area at the time of the shooting. So, who knows?

Because of this conversation I did search a bit, and discovered that there are some AI enhanced Zapruder films. I almost wish I hadn't looked. The AI enhancement makes it look almost like a modern movie studio clip in detail, speed and clarity. JFK's and Jackie's movements during those seconds are very clear. His head is already turning a bit to the left, toward Jackie, presenting a target that lines up with the two possible directions. Regardless of what it looks like in the clip, the massive hole in his skull was more toward the rear than the front (per several docs on scene), though a shot from the grassy knoll could have hit that area. For every person who says the head wound means it came from the front, another analysis, some very reputable, say no, the wounds are what a shot from the rear would produce. We'll never know - anyone involved is probably dead now - but it looks like Oswald to me. I could link a youtube here, but I'll let you find it if you like: won't take but a sec.

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Re: Jesus's Genealogy

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Nov 3, 2023, 5:06 PM
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Thanks for the detail. Interesting situations in both cases. It's amazing how different a site can look in reality vs photo or video. Years ago I travelled with my FIL to Custer's battlefield. First time for both of us.

He was a retired colonel, spent his career in military field exercises, maneuvers, etc., and he stood up on the ridge overlooking the river, looked it over, scanned the folds in the ground, available cover, distances, etc.

He looked at me and said: "Four thousand Indians down there? Custer was just a da** fool." We had a good laugh.

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Re: Jesus's Genealogy

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Nov 3, 2023, 11:18 PM
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I would like to go visit that place. He was a rogue, no question, but a fun one. His wife was apparently beautiful, and from a wealthy family. His letters back home to her, and hers to him, were very steamy. The language was more circumspect than today, but the intent no less clear. Cool stuff. We didn't invent sex, evidently.

If you went, I am sure you read about all this, so you can confirm what I think I understand, but the actual battle was apparently not as depicted in paintings, with little if any heroic last stand on a hilltop. The location of the dead bodies seems to indicate - if I remember what I read correctly - that the initial attack by the indians was an overwhelming run-through of the Army forces, like a shark through a school of minnows. From there, Army soldiers fled helter-skelter, in 2's and 3's, with the indians calmly chasing them down and killing them. It was more a methodical slaughter than a battle, with bodies scattered over a wide area. It was over pretty quickly, I think.

They deserved it not only for tactical reasons - he put the troops in a bad position - but strategic/moral reasons also. Prior to that battle, the male indians would leave a village and hide when the Army approached. Custer therefore began attacking the women and children in the villages to draw the males back, and into battle. You can't do that without eventually paying the price for it. The indians decided to put an end to it.

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Re: Jesus's Genealogy

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Nov 4, 2023, 12:26 AM
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Yes, all correct.

The best PR man in history may have been Custer's wife. I think she may have even commissioned some of those "heroic" paintings. I think that was her way of saying "I'm not going down in history as having married an idiot", lol.

He had quite a career though. He was the youngest Brig Gen in the Civil War I believe, at like 24 years old. No doubt very brave, if not sensible, and also vainglorious.

What makes the whole episode even more tragic, and your telling of the event is as I have read it, and as it's presented at the battleground, is that he really had to do nothing. The tribes were preparing to move north into Canada with weeks if not days, and he had 2 full column of cavalry literally a day away.

So it really paints a picture of "I want to grab fame while I, and only I, can. Why wait for reinforcements to share the glory or for the opportunity to pass?"

The battlefield is deceptive. It looks like a long, flat slope from the ridge down to the river, from a distance, but there are many, many, shallow, hidden ravines running up it. Lots of places for people to hide in high grass until they are right up on you.

Another interesting side is the makeup of the 7th Cav. Something like 14 languages. Just a complete hodge-podge of immigrants, all sent out to the middle of nowhere to conquer the West.

If you make it out there it'll have to be a destination. You don't really "pass through" lol. Very remote and very sparse, but beautiful. Def. worth it if you like Big Sky country.


Here's the so called "Last Stand." You can see the ravines running all up through it. Tree line is the river.




And here's Reno and Benteen's Columns, just a day's horse ride away. Custer knew they were coming. He just didn't wait for them.








Beautiful vistas




Looking up from the river





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Re: Jesus's Genealogy

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Nov 4, 2023, 1:52 AM
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Okay, I'm sold: I'm going to talk MissTulsa into going. I would love to see that site, and the topography you mention.

See Libby Custer. A cutie, for sure. How do you get a photo into the body of the post? I'm always the last to know.

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Re: Jesus's Genealogy

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Nov 4, 2023, 2:35 AM
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We paired it with a trip to Yellowstone…flew into Salt Lake City, saw the temple and Brigham’s harem 😊, Jackson hole, etc. a lot of driving. Had some friends come from the other side…mt rushmore, devils tower (close encounters of the third kind) deadwood. Also a lot of driving lol.

The syntax for a pic is

Sometimes the pic will self format. If it doesn’t”, just edit the text to make sure it has the carot at front and back and the img src= and it should work.

And yes, Libby was a cutie!

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Re: Jesus's Genealogy

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Nov 4, 2023, 2:38 AM
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ha it tried to read my example and gave me a question mark. I’ll post a pic of the syntax so it will accept it.

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Re: Jesus's Genealogy

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Nov 4, 2023, 2:51 AM
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Looks like you figured it out, she showed up for me.
Here's the basic syntax.


Screenshot-197

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Re: Jesus's Genealogy

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Nov 4, 2023, 2:54 AM
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Oh to get it in the body itself just type your message, paste the image string in the middle, and keep on typing.


Type type type

...image string...

Type type type

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Re: Jesus's Genealogy

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Nov 4, 2023, 9:45 AM
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Type type type



Type type type

Thanks. The "type type type" before and after seems to be the key. Seriously, I think I missed that class. Knew nothing about img src.

She seems to have a ring on her index finger, so that is not a new thing either.

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Re: Jesus's Genealogy


Nov 2, 2023, 6:11 PM [ in reply to Re: Jesus's Genealogy ]
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For some reason you can't comprehend the fact that you are setting the bible up to be scrutinized that way by claiming it is of divine origin. And then you complain that people examine it the way they do.

But at the same time saying it's not? Just in what it teaches? I'm not sure what your view is on that as you try to skate around it and move the goalposts to try and prove some point that only you are enlightened enough to see.

The resurrection is supposedly the difference between life and death. I don't get to burn in hell if I believe some fringe theory about a famous murder and miss the truth.

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Re: Jesus's Genealogy

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Nov 5, 2023, 11:38 AM [ in reply to Re: Jesus's Genealogy ]
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- Do the available documents reasonably reflect the originals?

There doesn't seem to have been "originals" as in independent accounts by each Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John. There is still academic debate to this day, and new books being written, on the subject of authorship, and which of these writings came first among others, and which ones used the others as a source.

- Can authorship be reasonably determined, if not to a person, to place, time and community?

A resounding no. None of the writings identify the author and none of them really corroborate any details from the other. Extrabiblical sources are oddly quiet and mention none of the characters of the New Testament except for passing mentions of Jesus and early christianity in general.


- Were the authors in a position to know the truth?

We don't know, because we don't know for sure who wrote them.

- Were they attempting to tell the truth?

Maybe originally, but we don't have the originals. We have a collection of writings that relied heavily on each other and that have been added to.

- Do surrounding and subsequent circumstances support it as the truth?

With no significant extrabiblical sources I would say no. Yes the religion exploded, but not until it became the official religion of the Roman Empire.

If a man really rose from the dead and showed himself to hundreds of people, seems like it would have caught on a little faster.


- Do alternate explanations reasonably explain the documents' existence?

I would say the story being 100% true is the most unreasonable explanation of all.

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Re: Jesus's Genealogy


Nov 5, 2023, 3:02 PM
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>and which of these writings came first among others

Yes, the view forever has been that Mark was written first and then Matthew, but I can easily see how Mark was a pared down version of Matthew, taking out stuff not necessary for an intended audience.

John seems to be last based on its sophistication and development of ideas, with Luke in the middle.

It is an interesting look to see what is shared between the Gospels and what is unique among them, and of course, why?



>Yes the religion exploded, but not until it became the official religion of the Roman Empire.

This is something that is worth closer look at, I think. Yes, having the largest empire on earth as your backer is a good jump start to explosion status, but my feel is that Christianity was big enough in 313AD and the Edict of Milan that Constantine felt there was some significant political gain to allowing it.

It's also noteworthy that Constantine merely allowed it (and other religions) to exist free of persecution, but it was Theodosius I and the Edict of Thessalonica in 380 that made it the state religion. Further evidence of Christianity's growth and political influence in those intervening 70ish years.


>If a man really rose from the dead and showed himself to hundreds of people, seems like it would have caught on a little faster.

The miracles part is another interesting topic. For instance, why would the stone have to be rolled back at the tomb? Could not a spirit, or even a physical body, just rise through the stone cave by the power of God? The point being that seeing the physical body gone seems to have been a part of the whole deal, whether the stone was rolled back by God or by man.

And if it was rolled open, it could just have easily been rolled back shut, by God, or by man. So finding the physical body gone was a big part of the "proof" of the resurrection I think.


One would think that when Jesus re-appeared to his disciples he could simply have said "My physical body is still in the tomb, with the stone door still shut", or, "this is all of me, the tomb is now empty," with the stone door shut. And have people believe him, since they saw him die on the cross.

The physical body missing seems to have been a big deal, particularly to the Sadducees I think, who didn't believe in resurrection. The Pharisees, who did believe in resurrection, might have been inclined to believe even if the tomb had never been opened. And of course, at the time there were very few gentile converts to convince.

Another curious event is when Jesus empowers others to heal. And even more curious is the Monty Python moment akin to “I’m not the Messiah, I’m just Brian.” When the distraught crowd is mourning the death of the young girl, and Jesus himself walks over and says “She’s not dead, she’s just sleeping,” and wakes her up. Why would that story even be included in the Gospels? Some strange stuff going on.

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"Why seek ye the living among the dead?"

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Nov 6, 2023, 2:10 PM
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The stone being removed was important that those who heard the angel's voice be able to verify it. Even if they didn't believe until they saw Christ they could, in retrospect, know that His body was not in the tomb. We all rise in spirit upon death, either to eternal life or eternal death, we all rise in spirit.

We all feel that man has a spirit.

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