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110%er [5483]
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If Fl St can do it in Basketball why can't we?
Jan 25, 2017, 5:59 PM
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I doubt theyhave new worldclass facilities.
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110%er [5513]
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We did under OP
Jan 25, 2017, 6:00 PM
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BB has killed the program
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Legend [16160]
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No we didn't...He wouldn't have R-U-N-O-F-F-T if he had***
Jan 25, 2017, 6:05 PM
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All-In [30872]
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That was his wife wanting to shop and get OP away from
Jan 25, 2017, 7:17 PM
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the side piece he had down here.
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Orange Blooded [3820]
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FSU went to the Final Four in 1972...
Jan 25, 2017, 6:04 PM
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lost to UCLA in the final game.
we had never even played in the ACC Championship game at that point.
#lackofanytradtionatall
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All-In [25014]
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a final four in 1972
Jan 25, 2017, 6:08 PM
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is the difference?
does Minnesota's football national titles in the 60s have any affect on their program today?
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Orange Blooded [3820]
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is called tradition, program, distinctiveness, brand....
Jan 25, 2017, 6:09 PM
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and we have none.
Until we create that
we're at best a one-and-done in the NCAA a la OP.
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All-In [25014]
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FSU doesn't have that either for bball
Jan 25, 2017, 6:11 PM
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like us they are a football first school and have had many lean years
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Orange Blooded [3820]
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I'd suggest that FSU has a national brand that transcends
Jan 25, 2017, 6:18 PM
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any particular sport -
thought obviously it's greater in football than elsewhere.
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All-In [25014]
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hmm interesting
Jan 25, 2017, 6:24 PM
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I guess they do have better teams in pretty much every sport. (volleyball, women's soccer, women's basketball, tennis) and about even in Baseball.
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All-TigerNet [13038]
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They are clearly better in baseball***
Jan 25, 2017, 6:33 PM
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Orange Blooded [3820]
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no... not better "teams", a better "brand"....
Jan 25, 2017, 8:48 PM
[ in reply to hmm interesting ] |
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and "brand" is everything in Collegiate Basketball.
Ask yourself: why do kids from all around the country go to Lawrence, Kansas to play basketball? Brand. Rock chalk.
Why does Coach K suffer one-and-dones every year - because he can replace them every year using his and Duke's "brand".
How does Mark Few win year after year at Gonzaga in the face of UCLA and Washington and Oregon, and even though none of his players really surfaces to the NBA? Because good kids know his brand - i.e. they'll go to the NCAA's every year playing a certain type of ball.
Clemson's stuck. Academic requirements are too high, competition is too high, Pickens isn't Tallahassee or Gainesville or even Durham, etc. on down the line.
I personally think it's going to take two years of a great recruit like Zion Williamson to undo the current "stuck".
And if you want to look at what happens to a program that takes a couple of mis-steps and then panics, look at Wake Forest. They used to have "brand". Now? Not so much....
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Orange Blooded [3820]
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All-In [27366]
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Uhhh....
Jan 25, 2017, 6:10 PM
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Their coach is better?
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110%er [5483]
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And not afraid to recruit high level players.***
Jan 25, 2017, 7:18 PM
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All-TigerNet [10402]
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Re: If Fl St can do it in Basketball why can't we?
Jan 25, 2017, 6:11 PM
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Because we have a HS coach at best
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Walk-On [128]
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Amen, amen, amen. we caught them in football....
Jan 25, 2017, 6:15 PM
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we can catch them in basketball..
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Orange Blooded [3820]
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the question wasn't about catching FSU -
Jan 25, 2017, 6:23 PM
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it was about catching FSU AND the rest of literally hundreds of other
D1 basketball schools.
seriously, does anyone not remember George Mason?
anyone can do it once. once being the operative word.
Clemson's handicaps are tall though:
ACC competition, low recruiting standard in home state, academics, no tradition, historically poor fan support,
no significant local media outlet, no local NBA presence, et al ad nauseum.
growing this program is a helluva lot more than getting on a chat board and whining like some think....
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CU Medallion [58448]
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Enough of this - we CAN do it.
Jan 25, 2017, 6:20 PM
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We can have a better basketball at Clemson, and should expect it. Period. The last 6 years have only been acceptable if they were a necessary, unavoidable step toward a significantly better program that gets past the first round of the NCAA tournament with some regularity. If we have clearly and demonstrably moved in that direction, then good. If that is not demonstrably evident at this point, then we are far off track and should expect corrective measures sooner than later.
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Orange Blooded [3981]
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Re: If Fl St can do it in Basketball why can't we?
Jan 25, 2017, 6:24 PM
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The better question is if West Virginia can why can't we
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All-TigerNet [10402]
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Re: If Fl St can do it in Basketball why can't we?
Jan 25, 2017, 6:31 PM
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If I were a betting man I believe I would take Pitt.
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All-TigerNet [13038]
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They have a coach that can recruit extremely well
Jan 25, 2017, 6:34 PM
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That's pretty much the only difference
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All-In [38430]
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Re: If Fl St can do it in Basketball why can't we?
Jan 25, 2017, 7:25 PM
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Florida State has never done a thing in CBB . You serious, Clark ?
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CU Guru [1535]
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We have done it--Purnell, Barnes, Ellis...all successful
Jan 25, 2017, 7:37 PM
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because they knew you had to do things differently here to win. Ellis went the JUCO route, Barnes went ultra-physical, and Purnell just ran and ran. Brownell is trying to win by playing regular old basketball, but regular old GOOD basketball players won't ever come here. The three of those aforementioned coaches all found guys basically unwanted by any university with a real basketball program and made them a part of a winning system. Purnell actually got this program to the level where his system WAS getting good ballplayers to come here. We would've been scary good for a while if he had stayed. And my god, were we fun to watch.
Brownell was NEVER going to be successful here because nothing he does will EVER make a really good player want to come to a non-basketball school like Clemson.
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CU Medallion [58448]
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All were successful, certainly more successful than
Jan 25, 2017, 10:10 PM
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Brownell, and I agree that all struggled to attract better talent ("regular old GOOD basketball players"), but if there is one thing that will guarantee that we never achieve real success at Clemson, it's to succumb to the nonsense about not being able to attract better talent than we ever have, and instead have to rely on some kind of gimmick or compensating system. That would be falling into a trap that only means more underachievement, frustration, and ultimate failure.
I agree that we can't expect to recruit head-to-head with the likes of UNC/Dook/Louisville, but we can certainly attract real, good basketball players; definitely better overall than what Brownell has brought in, and even a notch better than Purnell and Barnes were able to attract. There is no reason we can't recruit well enough here at Clemson to make the dance on a fairly regular basis, and to advance past the first round every few years.
I understand the history and tradition of our football program is very different from that of Clemson basketball, but the way to get better is simple and it's the same: Better players. After Tommy West, recruiting picked up a notch under Bowden, and with better players came better results. After Bowden, Dabo took recruiting up yet another notch, and we all know the results. Yes, better facilities, better coaches perhaps, but the dramatic improvement over that span of time has been due mainly to the steady ramping up of talent.
The main priority for Clemson basketball going forward, must be to attract better players, not to give up and go for some gimmick or figure out some kind of scheme that will allow us a modicum of occasional success.
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All-In [44055]
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Cliff Ellis?!?
Jan 25, 2017, 10:26 PM
[ in reply to We have done it--Purnell, Barnes, Ellis...all successful ] |
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He went to three NCAA Tournaments in his ten years at Clemson. The '89-'90 team that went to the Sweet Sixteen was great, but he also had plenty of teams which didn't make the postseason. I certainly wouldn't consider him successful in terms of what we are striving for in basketball.
We need much higher standards for basketball. Barnes is the only coach we've had who I would consider worthy of wanting to emulate. It is depressing reading some posts here saying things like "a realistic goal would be making the NCAAs most years" and "we will never compete for top recruits." Not with that crappy attitude, we won't!
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All-TigerNet [11487]
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OP came to Clemson about same time as...
Jan 25, 2017, 8:01 PM
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Hamilton. OP had a better record than Hamilton by the time he left for Depaul. If he didn't make some foolish decisions including leaving and the adminstration showed support, OP would be better than Hamilton now. We can get someone better if we chose to...
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Legend [19697]
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OP never recruited like Hamilton
Jan 25, 2017, 10:23 PM
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No coach we've ever had has recruited as well as Hamilton
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