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Replies: 91
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Re: Did the apostle Paul contradict the teachings of Jesus?
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Dec 5, 2023, 6:20 PM
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Very interesting point around the 9 min mark...
Paul never says anything about the life of Jesus in his letters. Never even quotes a saying or teaching.
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Dynasty Maker [3576]
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Re: Did the apostle Paul contradict the teachings of Jesus?
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Dec 5, 2023, 6:24 PM
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Should have kept listening. Bart says he quotes Jesus just three times all in only one of his letters to say:
- You should pay your preacher
- You shouldn't get divorced
- Quotes the lord's supper
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Re: Did the apostle Paul contradict the teachings of Jesus?
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Dec 5, 2023, 6:35 PM
[ in reply to Re: Did the apostle Paul contradict the teachings of Jesus? ] |
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Another interesting point:
Jesus never had to deal with the issue of Gentiles and whether or not they must follow Jewish laws because he was strictly in a Jewish setting. He seemed to be unconcerned with them.
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Dynasty Maker [3576]
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Re: Did the apostle Paul contradict the teachings of Jesus?
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Dec 5, 2023, 6:41 PM
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Mentions the goats and sheep passage from Matthew 25, and says that Jesus seemed to believe god would save gentiles based on how they followed his laws, mainly with how they treat other people.
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Standout [341]
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Re: Did the apostle Paul contradict the teachings of Jesus?
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Dec 6, 2023, 2:10 PM
[ in reply to Re: Did the apostle Paul contradict the teachings of Jesus? ] |
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Just outstanding. 60 of the best minutes I have spent on the topic.
I'd never heard of Bart till some of you guys brought him up here on the boards. I really appreciate how he says "These are the words in the Bible. But these words can lead to fundamentally different interpretations of who is saying exactly what."
That's big. What I try to do, personally, is paint a picture of the context...the world in which they lived, to get an idea specifically what they are saying, and mean. As Bart implies, the words in themselves are not quite enough for a definitive answer on many occasions.
For instance, if someone in 1920 said "It was a gay affair." That's hugely different than if someone in 2020 said "It was a gay affair." Exact same words. Maybe the same meaning, maybe not. Tough to tell without context.
As to this specific podcast, a few things I thought were crucial to understanding:
1) It's very difficult today, sometimes, to think of Jesus as a Jew. Jesus was born as Jew, lived as a Jew, and died as a Jew. As odd as it seems, there was not one day in his life where Jesus was a Christian.
2) Both Paul and Jesus were apocalyptic Jews. Both thought the End was imminent. Both acted like the end was imminent. Both were driven to get their respective messages out before the End.
3) About their messages, this is part of the controversy. Jesus seemed to preach Compassion. He railed that all this sacrifice stuff, all the extra liturgy, the washing of hands, etc., was missing the whole point of the Law. And he loved the Law, he taught the Law, he defended the Law. He simply said, "you guys are focusing on the mechanics of the law, and not the message of the Law....be compassionate. That's what God wants. That's commandments 1 and 2. Jesus doesn't say the rest of the Law is invalid in any way, even the sacrifice stuff.
Jesus just says doing half of the Law is not enough. You can't kill a goat and treat you neighbor like shid and say you are following the Law. You're only half following it. God wants you to love each other, not only drop another dead animal at his doorstep."
But Jesus, to my knowledge, never said "My Death and Resurrection will be your salvation." Paul said that, but I'm not sure Jesus did. I'm checking, but I haven't found it yet. Jesus danced all around it. He said "I'm the son of God. I'm the Messiah, believe in my Father, believe in me," and so on. But that's not quite Jesus saying "my death with be your means to salvation" And he said all those things while he was alive. So he may have meant, believe in my message, not in my death.
Paul on the other hand, said exactly that. "Faith in Jesus's D&R is your way to salvation." No doubt about that.
So Jesus is clearly saying "Compassion will get you into heaven," but is he saying more? And Paul is clearly saying "Belief in Jesus's sacrifice will get you into heaven. Two incredibly close, but ever so slightly different things.
4) The toughest thing about all this is that most of it is occurring before the first written word about it. Paul was on the road long before any of the Gospels were written. Even before his letters were written. That period from 30 AD to 50 AD is a black box. The only way to get inside that box is read everyone's words with incredible care, and remember who they al are...Jews to the core.
Consider these verses in Matthew, from Jesus himself in the Sermon on the Mount, about who should get his sacred word, intended for Jews:
Matt 7:6 “Do not give dogs what is sacred; do not throw your pearls to pigs. If you do, they may trample them under their feet, and turn and tear you to pieces.
That, to me, is not the universal love of Jesus. That is more like Jesus telling the Gentiles to F off. Along these lines:
Matt 10:5 "These twelve Jesus sent out with the following instructions: “Do not go among the Gentiles or enter any town of the Samaritans."
Over in Matt 15, a poor Canaanite woman, a Gentile, who has heard of Jesus's deeds, begs compassion from and he basically calls her a dog.
22 A Canaanite woman from that vicinity came to him, crying out, “Lord, Son of David, have mercy on me! My daughter is demon-possessed and suffering terribly.”
24 He answered, “I was sent only to the lost sheep of Israel.”
25 The woman came and knelt before him. “Lord, help me!” she said.
26 He replied, “It is not right to take the children’s bread and toss it to the dogs.”
She persists:
27 “Yes it is, Lord,” she said. “Even the dogs eat the crumbs that fall from their master’s table.”
And with that Jesus relents:
28 Then Jesus said to her, “Woman, you have great faith! Your request is granted.” And her daughter was healed at that moment.
Now, it's also important that he says "You have great faith." But faith in what? Jesus is still alive at that point. So it can't he faith in his D&R because that hasn't happened yet. But it could be faith in the fact that he is the Messiah for the Jews and that the world is coming to an end, and because she comes to him looking for healing, she has faith in all those things. But none of those things has anything to do with personal salvation.
That's why the words themselves are important, as is the context of the moment, and the context of the time.
Anyway, a great find and a great listen.
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Orange Immortal [65577]
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And part of the problem is determing what Jesus actually said and what
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Dec 6, 2023, 8:33 PM
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was added, changed, or spun to fit the evolving message.
I find it interesting as well that Paul, of course, never met Jesus, or heard Jesus speak, or read any biblical scripture about Jesus, as none existed for some time while Paul was "spreading the word". He did meet and speak with Peter and James, but it makes you wonder how complete and accurate Paul's eventual message would have been. Did Paul add any of his own conclusions or beliefs? Paul's writings that made it into the bible weren't written until a decade or two after the death of Jesus, and the gospels weren't written for a decade or two after that.
Looooooonnnnngggg, but related, and worth it if you find this kind of stuff interesting:
https://youtu.be/pfheSAcCsrE?si=8pt4Nh0pjzW16K6r
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Top TigerNet [32188]
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Re: And part of the problem is determing what Jesus actually said and what
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Dec 6, 2023, 11:56 PM
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Smiling Tiger®
All good points. And when one reads the Bible in this mindset, many things that appear odd and confusing suddenly become more clear.
>And part of the problem is determining what Jesus actually said and what was added, changed, or spun to fit the evolving message.
That is very true on many levels, but, the amazing thing to me is that in this specific case, this interpretation requires no more than the Bible itself and the current words in the Bible, assuming they are accurate. In this case I assume they are accurate because of the unusual picture they paint. That is, I would think that if they were false or altered, they would deliberately paint a different picture. Something much more compassionate perhaps.
I'm a little shocked at Jesus's attitude towards the poor Canaanite woman, but, when one sees Jesus as a Jew to the core, and in conjunction with his other comments and dealings with Gentiles, it makes sense. Only within the Pauline interpretation of "Savior of the World" does his harshness seem odd.
I know for a fact that none of my prior pastors never taught me Jesus alluded to a woman that she was the same as a dog. That would've stuck out in my mind. But the key word in that verse, and as Matthew specifically points out, this was a Canaanite woman, not a Jewish woman. The specific words do matter, whether altered, or original.
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Orange Immortal [65577]
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Agreed***
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Dec 7, 2023, 12:25 AM
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Standout [341]
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I think a lot of what Paul taught was hangups about himself
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Dec 8, 2023, 12:39 AM
[ in reply to And part of the problem is determing what Jesus actually said and what ] |
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Like the total depravity concept. Jesus never taught that and it’s never mentioned in the Old Testament. I think that’s how he felt about himself, that he was totally depraved and just projected that on to everyone else
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Varsity [104]
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Re: Did the apostle Paul contradict the teachings of Jesus?
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Dec 7, 2023, 8:46 AM
[ in reply to Re: Did the apostle Paul contradict the teachings of Jesus? ] |
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> Just outstanding. 60 of the best minutes I have spent on the topic.
You should check out his podcast, it's amazing. He's not the devil incarnate that this board would lead you to believe. He's truly passionate about the topic and trying to figure out who wrote the NT and why.
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Dynasty Maker [3576]
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Re: Did the apostle Paul contradict the teachings of Jesus?
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Dec 7, 2023, 9:59 AM
[ in reply to Re: Did the apostle Paul contradict the teachings of Jesus? ] |
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"But Jesus, to my knowledge, never said "My Death and Resurrection will be your salvation." Paul said that, but I'm not sure Jesus did. I'm checking, but I haven't found it yet. Jesus danced all around it. He said "I'm the son of God. I'm the Messiah, believe in my Father, believe in me," and so on. But that's not quite Jesus saying "my death with be your means to salvation" And he said all those things while he was alive. So he may have meant, believe in my message, not in my death."
Before I read the rest of your post I just have to stop and say that this is a very underrated point.
Jesus did say in the famous John 3 passage to nicodemus that eternal life was gained by "believing" and that those who do not are condemned.
But like you say...Believe what exactly?
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Top TigerNet [32188]
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Re: Did the apostle Paul contradict the teachings of Jesus?
Dec 6, 2023, 2:12 PM
[ in reply to Re: Did the apostle Paul contradict the teachings of Jesus? ] |
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Just outstanding. 60 of the best minutes I have spent on the topic.
I'd never heard of Bart till some of you guys brought him up here on the boards. I really appreciate how he says "These are the words in the Bible. But these words can lead to fundamentally different interpretations of who is saying exactly what."
That's big. What I try to do, personally, is paint a picture of the context...the world in which they lived, to get an idea specifically what they are saying, and mean. As Bart implies, the words in themselves are not quite enough for a definitive answer on many occasions.
For instance, if someone in 1920 said "It was a gay affair." That's hugely different than if someone in 2020 said "It was a gay affair." Exact same words. Maybe the same meaning, maybe not. Tough to tell without context.
As to this specific podcast, a few things I thought were crucial to understanding:
1) It's very difficult today, sometimes, to think of Jesus as a Jew. Jesus was born as Jew, lived as a Jew, and died as a Jew. As odd as it seems, there was not one day in his life where Jesus was a Christian.
2) Both Paul and Jesus were apocalyptic Jews. Both thought the End was imminent. Both acted like the end was imminent. Both were driven to get their respective messages out before the End.
3) About their messages, this is part of the controversy. Jesus seemed to preach Compassion. He railed that all this sacrifice stuff, all the extra liturgy, the washing of hands, etc., was missing the whole point of the Law. And he loved the Law, he taught the Law, he defended the Law. He simply said, "you guys are focusing on the mechanics of the law, and not the message of the Law....be compassionate. That's what God wants. That's commandments 1 and 2. Jesus doesn't say the rest of the Law is invalid in any way, even the sacrifice stuff.
Jesus just says doing half of the Law is not enough. You can't kill a goat and treat you neighbor like shid and say you are following the Law. You're only half following it. God wants you to love each other, not only drop another dead animal at his doorstep."
But Jesus, to my knowledge, never said "My Death and Resurrection will be your salvation." Paul said that, but I'm not sure Jesus did. I'm checking, but I haven't found it yet. Jesus danced all around it. He said "I'm the son of God. I'm the Messiah, believe in my Father, believe in me," and so on. But that's not quite Jesus saying "my death with be your means to salvation" And he said all those things while he was alive. So he may have meant, believe in my message, not in my death.
Paul on the other hand, said exactly that. "Faith in Jesus's D&R is your way to salvation." No doubt about that.
So Jesus is clearly saying "Compassion will get you into heaven," but is he saying more? And Paul is clearly saying "Belief in Jesus's sacrifice will get you into heaven. Two incredibly close, but ever so slightly different things.
4) The toughest thing about all this is that most of it is occurring before the first written word about it. Paul was on the road long before any of the Gospels were written. Even before his letters were written. That period from 30 AD to 50 AD is a black box. The only way to get inside that box is read everyone's words with incredible care, and remember who they al are...Jews to the core.
Consider these verses in Matthew, from Jesus himself in the Sermon on the Mount, about who should get his sacred word, intended for Jews:
Matt 7:6 “Do not give dogs what is sacred; do not throw your pearls to pigs. If you do, they may trample them under their feet, and turn and tear you to pieces.
That, to me, is not the universal love of Jesus. That is more like Jesus telling the Gentiles to F off. Along these lines:
Matt 10:5 "These twelve Jesus sent out with the following instructions: “Do not go among the Gentiles or enter any town of the Samaritans."
Over in Matt 15, a poor Canaanite woman, a Gentile, who has heard of Jesus's deeds, begs compassion from and he basically calls her a dog.
22 A Canaanite woman from that vicinity came to him, crying out, “Lord, Son of David, have mercy on me! My daughter is demon-possessed and suffering terribly.”
24 He answered, “I was sent only to the lost sheep of Israel.”
25 The woman came and knelt before him. “Lord, help me!” she said.
26 He replied, “It is not right to take the children’s bread and toss it to the dogs.”
She persists:
27 “Yes it is, Lord,” she said. “Even the dogs eat the crumbs that fall from their master’s table.”
And with that Jesus relents:
28 Then Jesus said to her, “Woman, you have great faith! Your request is granted.” And her daughter was healed at that moment.
Now, it's also important that he says "You have great faith." But faith in what? Jesus is still alive at that point. So it can't he faith in his D&R because that hasn't happened yet. But it could be faith in the fact that he is the Messiah for the Jews and that the world is coming to an end, and because she comes to him looking for healing, she has faith in all those things. But none of those things has anything to do with personal salvation.
That's why the words themselves are important, as is the context of the moment, and the context of the time.
Anyway, a great find and a great listen.
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Ultimate Clemson Legend [102418]
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No, absolute not. Anyone who believe Paul contradicted Jesus...
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Dec 5, 2023, 5:55 PM
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lacks the understanding of Jesus role as 'law fearing, Hebrew. If anyone thinks that Jesus should have or could have died on the cross for the sins of mankind, they would have to be ignoring the absoluteness of Jesus full and complete compliance of the Mosaic Covenant (legal, absolute and complete compliance with both agreements, they lack understanding of either, both or the demands the entire reason for God taking the body of man.
Anyone (1) who wants enough of the explanation to understand, I promise, I can give you plenty scriptural reference to show that Jesus preached Mosaic Law and the law of mercy He introduced to all 12 of his Apostles and every single person who heard His voice while awaiting His crucifixion. He never disrespected the Law of Moses or the Law according to exactly the same way as it is written.
1. It delights me to share the truth. I refuse to participate in an argument with anyone who does not believe the Bible. That's all I got, that's near to all I read or listen to and all I need. I, out of obligation share with those I know are not 'God fearing,' because I know that some of these question are given for me to answer. It's likely that some wandering young Christian soul will not be mature enough to avoid getting confused, so forget it!
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Dynasty Maker [3576]
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Re: No, absolute not. Anyone who believe Paul contradicted Jesus...
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Dec 5, 2023, 6:45 PM
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Jesus and Paul clearly taught two different views of salvation.
Jesus said keep the commandments and love your neighbor.
Paul said just have faith in Jesus death and resurrection.
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Top TigerNet [32947]
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Re: No, absolute not. Anyone who believe Paul contradicted Jesus...
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Dec 6, 2023, 10:23 AM
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They clearly did not
And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up: That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life. For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved. He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.
https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=John.3.14,John.3.15,John.3.16,John.3.17,John.3.18&version=KJV
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Dynasty Maker [3576]
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Re: No, absolute not. Anyone who believe Paul contradicted Jesus...
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Dec 6, 2023, 12:26 PM
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What about when Jesus was asked how to inherit eternal life and he responded keep the commandments?
What about the goats and sheep passage where he says people will be separated by how they treat people?
Those passages you’ve referenced from John are not found anywhere in the earlier synoptic gospels nor does Paul quote Jesus saying them.
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Top TigerNet [32947]
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Re: No, absolute not. Anyone who believe Paul contradicted Jesus...
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Dec 6, 2023, 12:57 PM
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Well, if you remove portions of the Bible then I guess you can piece your point together.
God's grace will bring you to love your neighbor as yourself. God's grace will bring you to a better treatment of people.
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Dynasty Maker [3576]
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Re: No, absolute not. Anyone who believe Paul contradicted Jesus...
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Dec 7, 2023, 10:07 AM
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So you're saying if you truly become a christian you will treat people better?
That kind of sounds like cheating lol.
A lot people are kind without Jesus.
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Ultimate Clemson Legend [102418]
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IDK about you.
1
Dec 7, 2023, 1:04 PM
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"So you're saying if you truly become a christian you will treat people better?"
Yes, some at first but as a newborn grows so does a newborn Christian grows in God's Spirit and kindness grows more and more in relationship to that.
"A lot people are kind without Jesus."
Yes they are. Some heathen are more polite and kind than me. Which isn't really saying much for them. I'm not a very nice guy.
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Dynasty Maker [3576]
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Re: IDK about you.
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Dec 7, 2023, 4:48 PM
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"Yes they are. Some heathen are more polite and kind than me. Which isn't really saying much for them. I'm not a very nice guy."
So you're not a true believer then?
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Ultimate Clemson Legend [102418]
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No, I'm a 'true believer,' as if that was the qualification to prove I'm...
Dec 11, 2023, 10:37 PM
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born again of God's Spirit.
I lack patents, fall quite short of loving others as I love myself and have way too much pride, lust for toys and a serious lack of humility.
The good news is that God isn't finished working His will in me yet.
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Top TigerNet [32947]
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Re: IDK about you.
2
Dec 7, 2023, 7:14 PM
[ in reply to IDK about you. ] |
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There are times that love is correcting. Giving someone the truth may not always seem kind. Of course, this should always be done with grace, as our saviour is full of truth and grace.
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Top TigerNet [32947]
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Top TigerNet [32947]
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Re: No, absolute not. Anyone who believe Paul contradicted Jesus...
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Dec 7, 2023, 6:25 PM
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That and communion with the Almighty
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Dynasty Maker [3576]
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Top TigerNet [32947]
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Re: No, absolute not. Anyone who believe Paul contradicted Jesus...
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Dec 7, 2023, 7:06 PM
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No
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Dynasty Maker [3576]
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Re: No, absolute not. Anyone who believe Paul contradicted Jesus...
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Dec 7, 2023, 7:09 PM
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So you believe there are others ways to heaven then?
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Top TigerNet [32947]
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Re: No, absolute not. Anyone who believe Paul contradicted Jesus...
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Dec 7, 2023, 7:16 PM
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I believe that God's grace, through Christ Jesus, that brings us to repentance is the only way to righteousness.
What do you mean by heaven?
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Dynasty Maker [3576]
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Re: No, absolute not. Anyone who believe Paul contradicted Jesus...
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Dec 7, 2023, 7:46 PM
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I say heaven because that's what this thread is mainly about, the difference between Jesus and Paul on how one gains eternal life. That's what being a christian is about, going to heaven right?
But Jesus said several times and seemed to preach that you are granted eternal life based on how you treat others.
So that would seem to mean that someone of any religion or lack there of could be saved.
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Top TigerNet [32947]
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Re: No, absolute not. Anyone who believe Paul contradicted Jesus...
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Dec 7, 2023, 9:52 PM
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If by being in Heaven means communion with God, then yes, that is correct. That is eternal life, whether it lasts a milli-second or a million mellinia. The Kingdom of Heaven is at hand.
For God so loved the world that he gave his only begotten son, that whosoever believes in him shall not perish, but have everlasting life.
Right anyone can be saved - whosoever.
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Dynasty Maker [3576]
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Re: No, absolute not. Anyone who believe Paul contradicted Jesus...
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Dec 8, 2023, 8:50 AM
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That verse seems to contradict a lot of what Jesus said elsewhere.
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Top TigerNet [32947]
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Re: No, absolute not. Anyone who believe Paul contradicted Jesus...
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Dec 8, 2023, 10:04 AM
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Like what?
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Dynasty Maker [3576]
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Re: No, absolute not. Anyone who believe Paul contradicted Jesus...
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Dec 8, 2023, 10:38 AM
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Lol. This thread has multiple quotes from Jesus alluding to the fact that how you treat people and keep the commandments is the difference between eternal life or death.
I know, you view the Bible from a modern day Christian perspective, but that doesn’t let Jesus speak for himself….
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Top TigerNet [32947]
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Re: No, absolute not. Anyone who believe Paul contradicted Jesus...
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Dec 8, 2023, 10:45 AM
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These two concepts are tied together. There's not really anything modern or new about the idea that salvation will bring about good works in a person.
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Dynasty Maker [3576]
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Re: No, absolute not. Anyone who believe Paul contradicted Jesus...
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Dec 8, 2023, 12:11 PM
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BUT THAT IS NOT WHAT JESUS ACTUALLY SAID.
Paul said that. Other christians writing after the fact said that.
Jesus literally said it's following the commandments and treating other people how you want to be treated.
You pointed to John 3:16. The gospel of John was one of the last books of the New Testament to be written.
Don't you think if that quote was historical Paul or one of the other gospels would have mentioned it?
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Top TigerNet [32947]
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Re: No, absolute not. Anyone who believe Paul contradicted Jesus...
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Dec 8, 2023, 12:57 PM
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YES IT IS
For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved. He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God. And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil. For every one that doeth evil hateth the light, neither cometh to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved. But he that doeth truth cometh to the light, that his deeds may be made manifest, that they are wrought in God.
https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=John.3.17,John.3.18,John.3.19,John.3.20,John.3.21&version=KJV
I'm sure John sent Paul an email with his thoughts. Given when John was supposedly written, I'm highly doubting Paul had any writings by John.
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Re: No, absolute not. Anyone who believe Paul contradicted Jesus...
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Dec 8, 2023, 2:56 PM
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Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John, are supposedly independent accounts. John being the last of them written. Most date it in the 90's, a good 60 years after Jesus died.
If Jesus actually said that, how could the apostle Paul, and the other gospel writers be ignorant of it?
Don't you think it's odd that every time Jesus speaks of eternal life in the earlier sources that he says keep the commandments?
Suddenly in one of the last books of the New Testament he makes such a theological statement as "salvation goes through me by faith"...
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Re: No, absolute not. Anyone who believe Paul contradicted Jesus...
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Dec 8, 2023, 3:56 PM
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Right, they were independent accounts that were written after the life of Christ. I'm guessing the writers were not comparing notes.
Even at the beginning of Mark, salvation is taught by being baptized in the Holy Spirit. Now, being baptized in the Holy Spirit will bring you to good works.
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Re: No, absolute not. Anyone who believe Paul contradicted Jesus...
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Dec 8, 2023, 4:37 PM
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Well it's actually pretty much unanimous among scholars that Matthew and Luke both used Mark as a source, and that all three used another source that is lost.
John stands alone.
Anyway, you are not letting Matthew speak for Matthew, and Mark for Mark, and so on...You are letting John speak for Matthew and Mark and so on...You are letting Paul speak for them and them for Paul.
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Re: No, absolute not. Anyone who believe Paul contradicted Jesus...
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Dec 8, 2023, 4:49 PM
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I just pointed out to you that Mark points towards salvation as being baptized in the Holy Spirit.
If it is the case that Matthew and Luke used Mark as a reference, then it stands to reason that they would sound similar to each other and different from John.
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Re: No, absolute not. Anyone who believe Paul contradicted Jesus...
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Dec 8, 2023, 5:06 PM
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The baptists would say you're going to hell for believing that baptism has anything to do with salvation lol.
Galatians and the book of Acts report that they were still arguing about what it takes to be saved long after Jesus death.
If Jesus had actually said what John 3:16 claims he did why were they still debating?
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Re: No, absolute not. Anyone who believe Paul contradicted Jesus...
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Dec 8, 2023, 8:23 PM
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That's not correct either. Most Baptist (that are educated in their denomination) will tell you that Baptism by the Holy Spirit is salvation.
There is no logic in what you said. Just because a debate is happening about something that was said prior doesn't mean the prior thing wasn't said.
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Re: No, absolute not. Anyone who believe Paul contradicted Jesus...
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Dec 9, 2023, 8:58 AM
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You are incorrect sir. I was born and raised in a baptist church. They will quickly tell you that baptism is simply an announcement of your salvation, not a saving act in itself.
"Baptism: A primary Baptist distinction is their practice of adult believer's baptism and their rejection of infant baptism. Baptism is an ordinance for believers only, by immersion only, and as a symbolic act, not having any power in itself. The act of baptism pictures what Christ has done for the believer in his death, burial, resurrection. Likewise, it portrays what Christ has done through the new birth, enabling death to the old life of sin and newness of life to walk in. Baptism gives testimony to salvation already received; it is not a requisite for salvation. It is an act of obedience to Jesus Christ."
https://www.learnreligions.com/southern-baptist-beliefs-700524
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Re: No, absolute not. Anyone who believe Paul contradicted Jesus...
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Dec 9, 2023, 9:00 AM
[ in reply to Re: No, absolute not. Anyone who believe Paul contradicted Jesus... ] |
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"There is no logic in what you said. Just because a debate is happening about something that was said prior doesn't mean the prior thing wasn't said."
If Jesus said and taught that, why would nobody think to say "hey remember when Jesus said xyz"?
Seems like that would have cleared it up.
But it wasn't clear. Jesus is reported to have said a lot of things that seem to be contradictory.
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That's a good point but it's actually a thought or two short of being in...
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Dec 7, 2023, 6:46 AM
[ in reply to Re: No, absolute not. Anyone who believe Paul contradicted Jesus... ] |
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context. Matt 19:
"18 He saith unto him, Which? Jesus said, Thou shalt do no murder, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness,
19 Honour thy father and thy mother: and, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.
20 The young man saith unto him, All these things have I kept from my youth up: what lack I yet?
21 Jesus said unto him, If thou wilt be perfect, go and sell that thou hast, and give to the poor, and thou shalt have treasure in heaven: and come and follow me."
If a Jew claimed Jesus added to love and mercy to Mosaic Law plus following Him. I wouldn't argue.
Jesus was God. In fact, from His own words we can see that Mosaic Law was insufficient to the saving of the soul, for, He added mercy to it which replaced that law upon His death by fulfilling the contract between God and man leaving only the law of mercy, spoken of by James in chap 2. He did that which none had ever done, He lived perfect and was innocent of breaking the law. God accepted His death as satisfying the Mosaic Covenant.
You speak with forked tongue, whiteman! I've seen you tell the story 'Go and sell all you have...' and never mention Mosaic Law atall.
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Jesus was very stern and resolved in His sermons about loving and caring for one another. He fed 3-5K people more than once.
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There is only one record of Paul meeting Jesus. On that road to Damascus. Paul never heard what Jesus said while Jesus was in the flesh before His death.
Message was edited by: ClemsonTiger1988®
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Just wondering...
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Dec 5, 2023, 11:53 PM
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Whom do you think gae the Law to Moses?
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YHWH***
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Dec 6, 2023, 12:06 AM
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Re: YHWH***
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Dec 6, 2023, 7:54 AM
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ok... is that the Father or the Son?
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Father obviously, Jesus wasnt born yet***
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Dec 8, 2023, 12:42 AM
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Re: Father obviously, Jesus wasnt born yet***
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Dec 8, 2023, 9:56 AM
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You do not know scriptureif you believe the Son was not already around. who do you think Jacob wrestled with?
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Re: Just wondering...
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Dec 6, 2023, 9:13 AM
[ in reply to Just wondering... ] |
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Yahweh was one god amongst many under a supreme god El.
This supreme god may even be mentioned in the OT separate from Yahweh.
The concept of a son didn’t come until the first century.
The Jewish messiah was not supposed to be the son of Yahweh.
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Re: Just wondering...
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Dec 6, 2023, 3:39 PM
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The Big Dog
I think Micah 4:5 may be evidence of that belief among the Jews. Not necessarily belief in a hierarchy among the gods, though it could be that too.
Micah 4:5 "All the nations may walk in the name of their gods, but we will walk in the name of the Lord our God for ever and ever."
Micah prophesied around 740 BCE, before the Assyrians came down an took away the 10 Tribes. So his writing, at that time, about other nations and "their Gods" would seem to indicate that belief.
He doesn't say "Other nation's Gods are fake." He says other nations may walk "in the name of their gods." So the fact that he doesn't challenge them doing that would indicate to me that he believes they have other gods.
The gods of Egypt are also mentioned in Exodus on multiple occasions without dispute. Now, others may dispute them, but Micah doesn't seem to.
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Ultimate Clemson Legend [102418]
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It certainly shows that Hebrews recognized that other people had...
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Dec 7, 2023, 6:53 AM
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other gods. Psalms 115:
"2 Wherefore should the heathen say, Where is now their God?
3 But our God is in the heavens: he hath done whatsoever he hath pleased.
4 Their idols are silver and gold, the work of men's hands.
5 They have mouths, but they speak not: eyes have they, but they see not:
6 They have ears, but they hear not: noses have they, but they smell not:
7 They have hands, but they handle not: feet have they, but they walk not: neither speak they through their throat.
8 They that make them are like unto them; so is every one that trusteth in them."
I think it's safe to confidently say that Hebrews had a certain defined opinion about other gods.'
Saying people worshiped rocks and stumps covered in gold and precious metals...well, we got that today. Nothing new.
Signed
'88s evil twin
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YHWH was the main name of God
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Dec 8, 2023, 12:44 AM
[ in reply to Re: Just wondering... ] |
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There were a ton of names given for the God of Abraham
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Re: Just wondering...
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Dec 6, 2023, 9:16 AM
[ in reply to Just wondering... ] |
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Yahweh was one god amongst many under a supreme god El.
This supreme god may even be mentioned in the OT separate from Yahweh.
The concept of a son didn’t come until the first century.
The Jewish messiah was not supposed to be the son of Yahweh.
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Jesus did not teach 'his interpretation,' of anything.
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Dec 7, 2023, 6:26 AM
[ in reply to You missed the point of the OP. Jesus taught his interpretation ] |
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John 1.
"1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
2 The same was in the beginning with God.
3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.
4 In him was life; and the life was the light of men.
5 And the light shineth in darkness; and the darkness comprehended it not...
14 And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father), full of grace and truth.
Word=GOD=WORD=Son of GOD=Jesus=Christ=Messiah=Holy Ghost=Holy Spirit. No math to it. Jesus was God. Jesus met Moses on the mountain and wrote the 10 commandment in stone tablets with His own finger. Jesus doesn't interpret anything. He knew it all because He created it all.
Paul literally met Word=GOD=WORD=Son of GOD=Jesus=Christ=Messiah on the road to Damascus. Comments on the interwebs will never change that.
Message was edited by: ClemsonTiger1988®
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Re: Jesus did not teach 'his interpretation,' of anything.
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Dec 7, 2023, 8:29 AM
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Stole all my thunder but, doesn't appear he was going to answer my last question anyway so I could make a similar presentation.
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It's not my first theft.
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Dec 7, 2023, 8:49 AM
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It's so easy to get distracted while watching people mishandle God's Word. I went through most of the issues of my confusion over the harmony between the Old Testament and the New Testament, The Story of Scripture, for years. Keeping in mind that both testaments are required for better understanding and harmony between them requires being reminded that Jesus dictated the OT to the men who wrote it. I never comprehended it before I got saved and that ignorance lasted longer than it should after.
I sole and 'set so many hearts afire in my youth they took to calling my neck of the woods The Smokey Mountains.' - Granny Clampett
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Re: It's not my first theft.
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Dec 7, 2023, 10:11 AM
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"Keeping in mind that both testaments are required for better understanding and harmony between them requires being reminded that Jesus dictated the OT to the men who wrote it."
Bring this presumption to the table is about the only way it seems you can reconcile the two.
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That's the game. Start with a premise and figure out a way to make it
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Dec 7, 2023, 11:53 AM
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work. Reason and logic and common sense be ######, because none of that applies to God. Therefore, one can make any claim about God.
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If logic and common sense are no more than man's logic and common sense...
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Dec 7, 2023, 1:17 PM
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and supposition is idle speculation limited by man's personal opinion of himself and his understanding.
Imagine a man getting a slam dunk marriage the night before he ships out to fight a war. The couple's knowledge of one another is extremely limited. She writes to him and he writes back to her. He reads her love letters but she prefers to consider who he is and what he's like with 'common sense and logic.'
If one doesn't read the Bible he is become like that woman. Common sense and logic become wishful thinking from imagination.
I'd starve to death spiritually without the Bible. I'd give up a meal or two everyday to get a Bible is I didn't have one. I've found most Christians feel the same way and none of us believe we spend enough time in God's Word.
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The Bible is one book, old and new being part of the complete Story of...
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Dec 7, 2023, 1:07 PM
[ in reply to Re: It's not my first theft. ] |
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God and man.
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Re: The Bible is one book, old and new being part of the complete Story of...
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Dec 7, 2023, 1:13 PM
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It’s literally not. It’s a canonized collection of writings. There were other writings that were considered and not included and some (like Revelation) that almost didn’t make it but did.
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Why then do you argue that one part is in conflict with another.
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Dec 7, 2023, 1:27 PM
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Every time I provide support for my opinion you dig into my words and categorically dismiss them as if you didn't care what I believe because you already know it's wrong.
It's clear to me, you don't believe that my God is able to produce, protect and provide His Holy Word because a bunch of men, evil, selfish, atheist or not can over power Him and confound and defeat His purpose of doing so.
Why even discuss it with me? You know I'm going to get all the support I need to satisfy me and anyone who knows Jesus in their hearts?
My foolishness is because I love you and believe that someday God will speak to you both through life and spirit. Let us continue.
Now post the supposed conflict and I'll address them for those who might not understand and are willing or wanting to know. 
BTW, I understand the book of James almost didn't make it either.
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Re: Why then do you argue that one part is in conflict with another.
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Dec 7, 2023, 4:48 PM
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> Why then do you argue that one part is in conflict with another.
Huh? You can still compare separate writings.
> Every time I provide support for my opinion you dig into my words and categorically dismiss them as if you didn't care what I believe because you already know it's wrong.
My bad, I'll just yes man from now on and shall not question thee.
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That's not what you did.
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Dec 8, 2023, 5:52 AM
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You categorically dismissed the Bible as a fairy tale. My guess is that you didn't read the first of two dozen post describing the dispensations or just refuse to admit it if you did.
You think this is a challenge, one mind, one man vs another. It's not. You question me and I share what I know right off the cuff, as honest as I can be with respect for my knowing that my ego is huge and feeds the pride of life which sometimes takes over and becomes my rudder, sail and the wind behind it.
'OH, Lord, it's hard to be humble, when you're perfect in every way!'
I hate that I come across like that sometimes. I do that but it's not that I'm trying to master you in some contest of ego and intellect. I pray for you every day and urge the day that God will speak to you. No greater blessing might He ever give than for you to tell me you've traveled that road to Damascus and experienced the reality of God.
The facts of this conversation is that I gave my explanation as to why people believe that Jesus and Paul had different views. It's due to the dispensation. If you were being honest you would have shown me where I was wrong and not said dismissed the topic as of you suddenly realized that you weren't interested in the conversation any longer.
I do want to offer my sincere gratitude for reminding me why I have not gotten married a third time.
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Re: That's not what you did.
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Dec 8, 2023, 4:07 PM
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> You categorically dismissed the Bible as a fairy tale. My guess is that you didn't read the first of two dozen post describing the dispensations or just refuse to admit it if you did.
What are you talking about?
I was specifically talking about the claim that it's one book. That was it.
> I do want to offer my sincere gratitude for reminding me why I have not gotten married a third time.
Something, something ... common denominator.
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I don't mean to come across as a smart#ss but...
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Dec 9, 2023, 2:50 PM
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My God made the Pharaoh so fearful that he released a group of slaves which consisted of 600K men not including the women and children and those to old to go to war.
He also destroyed the wealth of Egypt with such devastation that the citizenry of Egypt gave the Hebrews gold, jewelry, clothing and anything else the Hebrews 'borrowed.'
Basically, Hebrews spoiled Egypt in a manner which yielded the greatest wealth known to man. The 1 mil slave count alone is the greatest wealth of that day.
Maybe your faith in God is different than mine. After all the miracles I've read about, all the lives I've seen turned around and the change God's mercy and grace have brought to my heart I am fully persuaded that He was able to produce, protect and provide His Holy Word to me.
The Bible speaks of vessels of honor and vessels of dishonor. It tell us that God uses both. Is man frail? Most certainly. Even the most prominent figures of the OT and the NT failed yet they were all used by God to show His power and mercy.
I believe we should agree to disagree and while I will continue to welcome your opinion I can give you surety with my promise that I will not agree with anything you present which I believe is in conflict with God's Word.
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Re: Jesus did not teach 'his interpretation,' of anything.
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Dec 7, 2023, 8:51 AM
[ in reply to Jesus did not teach 'his interpretation,' of anything. ] |
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The irony being that this is indeed an interpretation of the text.
Another perfectly reasonable interpretation is that Jesus was an apocalyptic Jew preaching his interpretation of the OT.
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I opened the link and read down through two of the examples of the conflict'...
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Dec 7, 2023, 9:37 AM
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imagined between Christ and Jesus. The author of that hypothesis is devoid of appreciation and respect for context and dispensations.
A deceitful person can find individual verses and compare, twist and contort them to 'prove,' anything. Someone practiced can prove that washing dishes is the exclusive responsibility of men so I leave you with my first reaction to such suppositions.
Here Eph 4:
"13 Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ:
14 That we henceforth be no more children, tossed to and fro, and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the sleight of men, and cunning craftiness, whereby they lie in wait to deceive;..."
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Re: I opened the link and read down through two of the examples of the conflict'...
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Dec 7, 2023, 11:27 AM
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> The author of that hypothesis is devoid of appreciation and respect for context and dispensations.
You seem to have no problem dishing those out. Anyone who disagrees with seems to be such a deceitful person, my gosh.
> A deceitful person can find individual verses and compare, twist and contort them to 'prove,' anything.
What is deceitful about looking at someone saying one thing, and someone else saying another and concluding that they said different things?
Sure, I agree, sometimes context clears it up and there isn't a contradiction however, sometimes there is just a disagreement or contradiction.
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Re: I opened the link and read down through two of the examples of the conflict'...
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Dec 7, 2023, 12:59 PM
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There's a definite lack of context and disrespect to the fact that...
Dispensations are vital to understanding perspective. Before Abraham no one got circumcised to please God. Abram lived during the dispensation before the law, when God told him to leave his home and his family and go to a 'land I will show you.' Man's seal upon that covenant was circumcision and God changed Abram's name to Abraham and had a one time seal to put on the deal to ensure that Abraham and his children would always know that God has offered surety for that promise.
That continued until the Mosaic Covenant was agreed up and God sealed that deal with Moses and the COI. From there to Christ was the dispensation under the law. Jesus lived in that dispensation and under the law. Upon Jesus' death the dispensation of the law ended.
Those who believed in Him and seek salvation by His blood through faith are no longer under the law. Jesus, Who was God, Who met Moses on the mount and wrote the law we call The law of Moses was God in body living perfectly according to Mosaic Law and gave His life, which was never in violation of the law, to pay for the sin of all men.
To live under the law, without violating the law and without undermining it in the heart of those around Him, Jesus never contradicted Moses Law. He succeeded.
Those of us who believe on Jesus as our savior may be accused of contradicting Jesus, along with all 12 apostles, too. They lived and we now live in the dispensation of grace. Note that Jesus wasn't around long enough to have said much after His death. He met a few time with believers who seem to have all known Him previous to His crucifixion and left us with only those conversations. All but a short few days of His life were under the dispensation of the Law.
Dispensational context is vital to appreciate the difference in what Jesus preached and that of the writers of the Acts of the Apostles and the letters to the early church(es). Even Christians who don't believe in dispensationism are fully aware of the change.
As far as other context I'll be happy to discuss any of those with you if you C&P them here. One at time is plenty less I die of old age trying to write a book.
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Orange Immortal [65577]
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He didn't.
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Dec 9, 2023, 1:16 PM
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Nothing I can say will enlighten you to that truth for I speak of scripture, you speak from the heart of man.
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Re: He didn't.
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Dec 9, 2023, 1:35 PM
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So God made everything, but not sin.
> Nothing I can say will enlighten you
Because your logic is wrong.
> I speak of scripture, you speak from the heart of man.
Scripture was also written by man.
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By man in only that the hand of man did the scribing.
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Dec 9, 2023, 2:53 PM
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The Word of God was written by The Spirit of God working in men who yielded their will and understanding to God's Holy Spirit.
No, to claim it was written by man is in error.
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Varsity [104]
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Re: By man in only that the hand of man did the scribing.
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Dec 9, 2023, 5:20 PM
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> The Word of God was written by The Spirit of God working in men who yielded their will and understanding to God's Holy Spirit.
The evidence we have for this is you saying it and it written in a book by men. Where is the evidence that it was actually guided by God?
These claims have only been made by men. If that's not the case, please do show me.
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Re: Did the apostle Paul contradict the teachings of Jesus?
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Dec 6, 2023, 3:08 PM
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I think yes in some cases, but not always.
For instance, they both taught a message of compassion, but I think the message of WHO to be compassionate to was different. For Jesus, since he only taught Jews, it was primarily Jews be compassionate to Jews; and for Paul, since he only taught Gentiles, it was Gentiles be compassionate to everyone. Stuff like that. Fine parsings of definitions and beliefs between the two.
They never met, and they addressed different crowds, so I can't imagine their messages being exactly identical.
But I also think the particular list in the OP only has a few true inconsistencies out of those listed. Most of the 25 examples are apples and oranges type situations that can be reconciled. I'll try to spend some time addressing them if I get a chance.
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Ultimate Clemson Legend [102418]
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I am delighted to attempt to answer questions posed by those here on Tnet.
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Dec 9, 2023, 9:58 AM
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I feel akin to everyone here. I like to communicate one on one with others. I'm not arguing with someone who publishes their thoughts and opinions for a living. I love to read personal testimonies given in post, books which edify me and hear God's people preach and I love especially to read, hear or watch a video of someone teaching me more about God's Holy Word as it's written.
I am not interested in arguing with anyone who publishes materials contradicting what I believe and have believed for all my adult life, something which has dominated my thoughts and life for over half a century.
I didn't exhaust that list of ways Paul's teachings differed from Christ. I know they lived under a different law. Each of them had the basic responsibility to please God but that while Jesus was under Mosaic Law had to live accord to the sacrifices of the blood of bulls and goats to honor God, Paul live under another law which was free from the law which bound him and all mankind previous to that one sacrifice which paid all mans' sin debt to the law of sin and death.
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Re: Did the apostle Paul contradict the teachings of Jesus?
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Dec 7, 2023, 2:58 AM
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Ok, grabbed some time to take a closer look at this.
1. I don’t see “day” vs. “time” as a contradictory. One is specific, one is general. Both can be true.
2. I don’t see “spirit” and “I” as contradictory. One is before Jesus’s death, one is after.
3.This is slightly out of context. The missing part is Jesus’s words … “for to him all are alive.” No contradiction in my mind.
4.This Paul just focusing and speaking to just one issue, so sort of out of context. There’s no doubt in anyone’s mind that Paul believes in and teaches, belief in God. No contradiction.
5. Again, general vs. specific. Both can be true.
6. Both can be true. No contraction.
8. Both can be true. No contradiction.
9. This one seems like apples and oranges. Actions before man, vs. actions before God.
10. This one seems like a translation issue. In the NIV, Paul says “I face death everyday.”
13. Eh, I’ll call this one semantics. Paul is saying he is his flock’s father “Through Christ”, which is not the same as saying he is The Father. Wordplay, but no contradiction.
14. This is another close one. I’m gonna say that the Grace of God is contingent on belief in God. One leads to another, and so not a contradiction.
15. Here, I think Jesus and Paul, since they were both Jews, are speaking of the same thing…the World to Come. And since Jesus thinks a new world is coming, my take is that “Heaven and Earth passing away” is simply a figure of speech, saying “All you currently know will end, when the new World arrives.” No not really contradictory, just the same concept phrased in different ways.
17. This more big picture small picture stuff. Jesus is speaking of God, Paul is speaking of men. No contradiction here, just a language issue.
19. This is apples and oranges. Paul is talking teachers, Jesus is talking flock. And Jesus could have said it while he was the only teacher. So, no contradiction.
20. This one is interesting because I can see them being written at different times. When Jesus walked the earth, he WAS the one leader. By the end of Paul’s missions, he had taught many people his message. So no contradiction I think.
21. Here, Paul is conflating bad with sinful. Jesus is saying good men can sin, and still be forgiven. This is just terminology, not contradiction.
23. This one is touchy, but I’m going to go with both can be true. I think this is apples and oranges a bit. Paul is speaking about the end of the Law, Jesus is speaking to obeying the entire Law. So not exactly the same topic, and thus not contradictory.
24. I think this some very close parsing of terms. Paul is saying preachers need to be paid, Jesus is saying we do not need to be paid. But Jesus does say “take what you are offered” in food and such. So, different terms and methods, but same message I think. Man gotta eat.
25. This feels like a terminology issue, too. I think both Jesus and Paul are speaking of faith here so I’m gonna say no contradiction. But the Gospel of John is involved, and John is different enough that it might need a closer look down the line. For now, no contradiction.
So that’s a quick review on my first scan. My tally is 19 apparent, but not actual contradictions, leaving 6 possible contradictions. I’d love anyone else’s perspective. Here’s my follow up on the possible contradictions.
7. This one might be legit. This is in the realm of faith vs. works, and it does appear here that Jesus is saying your words, ie, your actions, matter, just as your faith does.
Matt 12:36 But I tell you that everyone will have to give account on the day of judgment for every empty word they have spoken. 37 For by your words you will be acquitted, and by your words you will be condemned.” Nothing about faith in there. Jesus says judged by words.
16. This one is also a contradiction candidate, hinging on whether the law will be “fulfilled”, or “ended.”
Romans 10:4 “Christ is the culmination of the law so that there may be righteousness for everyone who believes.”
Matthew 5:17 “Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them.
What does "fulfill" really mean? 88 and I have had a ton of discussion on this, and it just comes down to individual interpretation I think. Could easily go either way.
11. This is an interesting one and might need a dedicated post. What makes it unusual is that Paul seems to be preaching two different things himself, in addition to maybe something different than Jesus. There’s no doubt that Paul thinks “Faith Alone.” He says it many times.
Romans 3:28 “For we hold that one is justified by faith apart from works of the law.” Clear. Simple. Easy.
But then, in Romans 2:6, Paul says this:
God “will repay each person according to what they have done.” To those who by persistence in doing good … he will give eternal life…10 …glory, honor and peace for everyone who does good. 13 For it is not those who hear the law who are righteous in God’s sight, but it is those who obey the law who will be declared righteous.
So that’s not faith alone. What on earth is going on here with Paul? The dude is tough to follow. Paul, is it faith alone? Or faith and "what they have done...Acts?" Those who obey the law are not relying on faith alone.
12. Alright, this one is complicated as well, and might also need a dedicated post called “Paul’s Thinking.” I’m not sure I get it all, but I’m trying.
Paul is using some unusual angles here to condemn the Law. What he’s getting at is this, I think. He’s implying that as a child, he was free, he didn’t know what sin was, because there was no Law for him, as a child, to follow. He was naked, running around, and loving life as a toddler. When he was taught the Law, he learned what Sin was, because he was, for the first time in his life, told what NOT to do.”
Romans 7:7 “For I would not have known what coveting really was if the law had not said, “You shall not covet.”
Now, I kind of think Paul would have known what coveting was whether he ever learned the Law or not, but he’s using this reasoning to say the Law shackled him with these various restrictions called Sins, and if he had never learned the Law he would never have known what Sin even was.
Romans 7:8 But sin, seizing the opportunity afforded by the commandment [of the Law], produced in me every kind of coveting. For apart from the law, sin was dead.
So Paul is saying, if there was no Law, there would be no Sin. I kind of disagree, but that’s his argument. I do get his point, but it seems like a pretty weak argument. But whatever, that’s what he’s hanging his hat on. So he’s saying that the Law, by existing, creates Sin. "For apart from the law, sin was dead." I don't have the heart to ask Paul about Original Sin at this point...too complicated. Anyway, on we go...
Romans 7:9 Once (when he was young?) I was alive apart from the Law; but when the commandment [of the Law] came, sin sprang to life and I died.
So the Law “killed” Paul's toddlery freedom and his sinlessness. The Law to Paul is shackles and bonds over the freedom to do anything he wants without being labeled a “sinner.”
But Paul actually says the Law is good. It pointed out to him what Sin is. In fact, for him, it created Sin. "For apart from the law, sin was dead."
Paul's beef though is that although the Law says what Sin is, it won’t permanently remove Sin. He still has bad thoughts, even though he practiced the Law.
Romans 7:23 but I see another Law at work in me (my own evil desires), waging war against the Law of my mind (my good intentions) and making me a prisoner of the Law of sin (Moses’s Law of Commandments) at work within me.
So Paul says the only way out of his mess is through belief in the Jesus, not practice of the Law, even though he admits, here at least, that he Law is good and useful. It tells one what sin is, but it can’t soothe your soul and bring you peace. It can was away sin for a while, but not permanently. Whew.
So, after that marathon tangent to try and understand Paul’s mind, I do think point 12 is a potential contraction.
Jesus says here: “If you want eternal life, obey the commandments.” And Paul is saying “the commandments can warn you, but they can’t fix you.” So, different messages.
18. I was tempted to call this one general vs. specific again, but I’d need to take a closer look. Could be more to it. Paul does seem to open the gates wide open, while Jesus keeps it cracked. So for now, potential contradiction.
22. This one is legit. Faith vs Acts debate.
So that's my take. All opinions welcomed.
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Dynasty Maker [3576]
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Re: Did the apostle Paul contradict the teachings of Jesus?
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Dec 7, 2023, 10:57 AM
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2. I think the contradiction here is that Paul claims his revelation came from the spirit, not the words of man.
Jesus said the word is the truth. I assume he was referring to the Old Testament and his words.
I guess technically this isn't a contradiction because Jesus could have chosen to reveal himself to Paul specifically in a different way.
The question is why? Why have any eyewitness accounts at all? Why have any scripture at all? The majority of modern church practice and culture comes from Paul anyway.
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Re: Did the apostle Paul contradict the teachings of Jesus?
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Dec 7, 2023, 11:07 AM
[ in reply to Re: Did the apostle Paul contradict the teachings of Jesus? ] |
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On #8...
There does seem to be a contradiction between what Jesus called his actual followers when he was alive to do and what christians are called to do today based on the teachings of Paul.
Jesus' disciples literally walked away from their jobs and families.
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Re: Did the apostle Paul contradict the teachings of Jesus?
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Dec 7, 2023, 11:13 AM
[ in reply to Re: Did the apostle Paul contradict the teachings of Jesus? ] |
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11. Yes definitely a contradiction maybe not necessarily between Paul and Jesus, but just with the christian worldview in general. Do our actions matter or not?
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Re: Did the apostle Paul contradict the teachings of Jesus?
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Dec 7, 2023, 12:07 PM
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I need to re-read Romans again to be sure, but #11 sure sounds like Paul teaching acts and faith, even though everywhere else he is all faith.
Paul admitted elsewhere he was a chameleon to get converts, so he may be preaching to a specific audience here who want to hear a specific message. I haven't quite figured it out yet, but it's definitely different, and in my view at the moment, both contradictory to Jesus's message and Paul's own message elsewhere.
A real mystery.
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Ultimate Clemson Legend [102418]
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As you said to me, there were many Hebrew converts among the first churches.
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Dec 9, 2023, 1:03 PM
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Reading further into that chapter from the verse particularly selected by the writer of that article we see that Paul was directing at least a majority of his thesis in chap 2 to those Hebrews for he said:
"14 For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves:"
Specific mention of the Gentiles then:
15 Which shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and their thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another;
16 In the day when God shall judge the secrets of men by Jesus Christ according to my gospel."
"17 Behold, thou art called a Jew, and restest in the law, and makest thy boast of God,"
He is relating Hebrews under the law with Gentiles who have only natural law in their hearts which leave both groups lacking before God. 'You are behaving like those heathen.
There's the supposed conflict. It is not in conflict with Jesus' teaching. For are not the Hebrew of today continuing to insist that their relationship with God is established and maintained by their obedience to Mosaic Law? Or perhaps do they believe they are saved by faith through grace without Jesus sacrifice. I honest don't. The only Jews I take understanding from are those who wrote the Bible and those who profess Christ today.
In my ignorant opinion, I believe that many if not all the supposed conflicts between Jesus' teaching and that of His Apostles are not founded in these misunderstanding bred from failure to appreciate context which identifies comparisons of the 'Law of Mercy,' to the Mosaic Covenant. That's why my first go to is usually dispensation.
God has not changed from the creation of the world. Mankind are children being raised by a loving Father who is growing His family to live and serve as heirs to His Throne forever.
Message was edited by: ClemsonTiger1988®
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Ultimate Clemson Legend [102418]
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Shame on you!
1
Dec 9, 2023, 12:16 PM
[ in reply to Re: Did the apostle Paul contradict the teachings of Jesus? ] |
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I had no intentions of sifting through all that knowing that the OP pasted a link with expectations that one, some or many would wade through the torturous details and provide an exhaustive response. You rapscallion. Not only did you take front and center on this, your interest has (automatically) excited (and incited) me enough to respond. SO, JUST BECAUSE IT's YOU...
4. Evidently the person who composed that risk was trying to catch flies with chopsticks. Romans 13:
"1 Let every soul be subject unto the higher powers. For there is no power but of God: the powers that be are ordained of God."
To me it's outrageous that Paul loved Jesus and understood as well as or better than anyone, that Jesus was God. Paul taught the incarnation of God's Spirit as the proof of, definition of love for Jesus and our fellow man.
It's more than intuitively obvious that love for God was the common theme in Mosaic Law and a birth in Christ's Spirit; that love for God was what bound, and binds, member of the universal Body of Christ, which is His Church, together and knowing, understanding and living in our love for Jesus is our love for God.
This claim that Paul taught or believed things contrary to Jesus are birthed of ignorance of God, His Son and His Word or just plain foolishness or regurgitation of evil men.
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10. The author of that has no concept of spiritual application(s) of those two examples, neither that of Jesus' understanding or that of Paul's. I do, not to boast of my understanding but to boast of God for making me, a foolish vain man, understand.
To comprehend Jesus' view of death let's look at the entire chapter, I'll do the (RD) Reader's Digest
condensation of the story John told.
Lazarus died. His sister & friend told Jesus. Jesus waited two days before He went to the grave. Jesus' disciples didn't want Him to go because He risk capture of bad men. He said 'Lazarus sleepth,' and they though he mean sleeping as we sleep daily. This verse is the key to life. It can't be condensed or view in any form other that that which the KJ translators recorded it.
21 Then said Martha unto Jesus, Lord, if thou hadst been here, my brother had not died.
22 But I know, that even now, whatsoever thou wilt ask of God, God will give it thee."
Martha believe that Jesus' faith in God could raise Lazarus from the grave
23 Jesus saith unto her, Thy brother shall rise again.
Both Paul and Jesus had a special way of using example of this world and relating them to truths of the spiritual realm. Frames of reference are sometimes missed by overlooking the relationships between the two and thinking they are transitions between the topics. They are vied as, 'changing the subject.' Folks like me who have limited focus will think that both Jesus, and Paul were changing the subject.
This is one of those situation when Martha believed Jesus was changing the subject on her and thereby avoiding her comment(s). She thought, and I thought for years, that He was speaking of the spiritual realm and missing the fact that He was not avoiding the question she asked.
I hope this is clear, I'm doing the best I can with my stumbling words from my limited ability to comprehend and explain it with stumbling word.
"24 Martha saith unto him, I know that he shall rise again in the resurrection at the last day."
RD version, 'That's not what I'm talking about.'
"25 Jesus said unto her, I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live:"
So I ask you, and everyone who reads this:' Do you think He was addressing this as 'living,' in the physical realm or the spiritual realm? I will continue this discussion when someone responds with an answer.
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Re: Shame on you!
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Dec 10, 2023, 10:47 AM
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ClemsonTiger1988®
>You rapscallion. Not only did you take front and center on this, your interest has (automatically) excited (and incited) me enough to respond.
I knew you couldn't resist
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