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All-In [10404]
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Bowden vs Brownell (resources and support)
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Mar 10, 2023, 1:11 PM
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Another lie was posted by JK on another thread: Bowden coached at a football school with resources and support that most ACC schools didn’t have. Bowden had many advantages, where as Brownell has many disadvantages. The two situations and coaches couldn’t be more different.
As you can see below that wasn't the case at all.
Per Cris Ard 7/22/2016
From 1999-2004 Clemson ranked dead last in the Atlantic Coast Conference in football facilities spending, yet in that span Bowden managed to take home ACC Coach of the Year honors twice. But while Bowden's staff lifted the program's recruiting, also averaging eight wins a season and dominating arch-rival South Carolina, the Tigers' drought of conference titles would continue under his watch.
When Tommy Bowden began his first season in Clemson in 1999, the Tigers had not won 10 games in a season since 1990. The Tigers had not won the Atlantic Coast Conference championship since 1991. Not only was Clemson no longer nationally relevant, but the Tigers were just coming off a 3-8 campaign, the program's worst showing since 1976.
Ultimately Bowden was able to improve the product on the field, winning nine games in 2000, 2003 and 2007. But it should be noted that for six of his nine-and-a-half seasons as Clemson's head coach, the program would rank dead last in the ACC in football facilities spending (1999, 2000, 2001, 2002, 2003, 2004). In fact in 2004, the dressing room Bowden's team used in Death Valley was essentially the same facility Danny Ford's team had used in 1989.
Bowden sought advice from all of Clemson's former living head coaches in late 1998 upon taking the job, including Tommy West, who immediately told him to stay on Clemson's administration for a facilities push. As readers will see later in this interview, I ask Bowden what he wants to be remembered for as the Tigers' head coach. But before the coach can answer, his wife, Linda Bowden, chimes in and simply states, "He should be remembered for helping get the West Zone off the ground because they (Clemson's administration) were in no hurry to get it."
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CU Medallion [18472]
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Re: Bowden vs Brownell (resources and support)
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Mar 10, 2023, 1:19 PM
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This is where he tells you that “history” matters. But only the selective bits that serve his agenda count.
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Top TigerNet [30619]
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Re: Bowden vs Brownell (resources and support)
Mar 10, 2023, 1:35 PM
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Bowden also put himself on a pedestal while he was here. One thing I can remember is that he separated himself from the team during the game. He stayed at one end of the sideline or the other by himself with his headphones. He also blamed a loss on something other than coaching. His favorite saying was "50% of college football teams lost today". However, he did do good things for Clemson. I remember his mother made a statement saying after Tommy was let go, "Well, Clemson is still paying him for years".
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Orange Immortal [62864]
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Re: Bowden vs Brownell (resources and support)
Mar 10, 2023, 2:08 PM
[ in reply to Re: Bowden vs Brownell (resources and support) ] |
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I think that anybody that says the administration ignored facilities in every sport was being honest, IMO, it was TB that finally got someone to listen about how far behind the FB facilities were for a school that was mostly a FB school over all sports. Dabo told them about the same thing....
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110%er [4022]
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Re: Bowden vs Brownell (resources and support)
Mar 10, 2023, 1:28 PM
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“From 1999-2004 Clemson ranked dead last in the Atlantic Coast Conference in football facilities spending”
This is an interesting statement. This was before Oregon built an operations center and the football facility arms race spending took off in earnest.
So what did football facility spending include back then? Everyone pretty much had locker rooms and a practice field (outdoor). Plus there was a weight room of some type.
Did this include the stadium? Obviously no one in the ACC (then or now) had a better stadium than Memorial Stadium. Perhaps Wake added a few bricks or Duke painted the toilet doors at Wallace Wade during this period. Idk.
But I don’t think Clemson was at any facilities disadvantage relative to our conference brethren back then. Did we have an advantage like we do now, definitely not. But even in those dark days post-West and post-Hatfield, Clemson cared more about football than any other ACC school, save FSU.
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All-In [10404]
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Re: Bowden vs Brownell (resources and support)
Mar 10, 2023, 1:30 PM
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If you insist I do more research I'll try but you're incorrect. For example UNCheat did their end zone facility, locker rooms, coaches offices, etc. in the mid 90's. ESPN even did a special segment on their facilities.
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110%er [4022]
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Re: Bowden vs Brownell (resources and support)
Mar 10, 2023, 1:44 PM
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No, not insisting No need for you to do work.
But there was investment in facilities by Clemson well before this period. So yea, maybe the holes did something during this period and we didn’t, but I just don’t think we were ever at a disadvantage stadium-wise in the ACC after 1982. Different schools did construction projects at different times and I guess from 99-04 we weren’t doing much but no ACC school as ever ahead of us in this area.
Possible exception to this: I don’t think we were the first with an indoor facility. Remember Dabo’s comments about the pro day in the rain and how he was embarrassed that we didn’t have an indoor facility for our players.
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All-In [10404]
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Re: Bowden vs Brownell (resources and support)
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Mar 10, 2023, 1:47 PM
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Bowden wouldn't take visiting recruits into the locker room for crying out loud. Should I go on?
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CU Guru [1573]
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Re: Bowden vs Brownell (resources and support)
Mar 10, 2023, 3:19 PM
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Bowden wouldn't take visiting recruits into the locker room for crying out loud. Should I go on?
I’d have to see actual numbers before I would believe the Duke Blue Devils outspent Clemson, in football, for five years. I find that incredibly unbelievable. UNC certainly had great stuff. Everyone talked about what Brown did there. NC State began their revamp of Carter-Finley around that time. I can certainly buy that Clemson was far from first in that category, but last? If the author of that article has actual numbers to support that claim, I’d love to see those.
This is not an accusation of you lying. Please know that. I have no doubt the article you have quoted said exactly what it said, but I would hope that article would have shown actual numbers and the context of COMPLETE football operations expenses. I’d love to know. Did Duke really outspend Clemson in any football category for FIVE straight years?
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All-In [10404]
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Re: Bowden vs Brownell (resources and support)
Mar 10, 2023, 3:37 PM
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It's my understanding we still had the old metal lockers like in high school and even Duke had a nicer locker room.
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CU Guru [1573]
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Re: Bowden vs Brownell (resources and support)
Mar 10, 2023, 3:42 PM
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Is there a source to verify that? Did someone just tell you that, or did someone who would actually and objectively know that Duke had superior facilities to Clemson during that time? That’s what I’m asking. I found the article you referenced in your previous post, but the author of the article just made the statement about “dead last.” There was no graph or statistical data to support his statement. Was he just saying that because that was the rumor, or was that confirmed?
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All-In [10404]
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Re: Bowden vs Brownell (resources and support)
Mar 10, 2023, 4:52 PM
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He had other articles way back in the Bowden era or shortly after that had data. Not sure when or if I could find out if those articles are still out there.
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Orange Blooded [2702]
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Re: Bowden vs Brownell (resources and support)
Mar 10, 2023, 2:55 PM
[ in reply to Re: Bowden vs Brownell (resources and support) ] |
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We weren’t recruiting against the ACC. Lots of SEC schools were outspending us as well. The facilities were most definitely an issue at the time.
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Game Day Hero [4435]
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Re: Bowden vs Brownell (resources and support)
Mar 10, 2023, 1:38 PM
[ in reply to Re: Bowden vs Brownell (resources and support) ] |
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Tigerphil asked a lot of questions in response to to the post about football facilities but stated no facts. He also used his or her opinion in his post but again no facts. The FACTS were that Clemson was last in the ACC prior to Bowden taking the football program. Tigerphil sounds like a lawyer in his closing statement of a trial that was lost.
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110%er [4022]
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Re: Bowden vs Brownell (resources and support)
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Mar 10, 2023, 1:52 PM
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Ok, I’m open to your facts but please state a your sources.
I just doubt that the football coaches on Wake, Duke, etc. had a better product to sell facilities-wise than Bowden did at Clemson. Death Valley was an impressive structure even back then that no one in the ACC could compete with. Other type of facilities of the era - loclkerooms and weight rooms - weren’t anything close to like they are today, but nobody else’s were either.
Not sure why this agitated you so much, just having a discussion in a place meant for it. That’s all.
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Orange Blooded [2197]
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Re: Bowden vs Brownell (resources and support)
Mar 10, 2023, 2:16 PM
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The fan support has always been better for football than basketball, but hinging your argument on the stadium is silly. The players spend 6-7 games a year in the stadium, maybe 8 if you include the spring game. The facilities are the practice facilities, rehab facilities, training table, etc. BTW, the FSU stadium was quite impressive in those days and better than DV imo (possible that made a difference in recruiting), though haven’t been there since then.
All that to say, we absolutely should go find the best basketball facilities in the country (NBA and college) and model a plan to do that. Additionally, we should find ways to get fans in the seats, be it give to students after 2nd tv timeout, or buses to/from Greenville, cheaper tix for weeknights, etc.
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All-In [10404]
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Re: Bowden vs Brownell (resources and support)
Mar 10, 2023, 2:35 PM
[ in reply to Re: Bowden vs Brownell (resources and support) ] |
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Really? You're going to zero in on Wake/Duke? Yes even they spent more on facilities. Take a look at this excerpt
Ard. Talking to some of your assistant coaches at that time, they seemed to think that you were getting beat up on the recruiting trail because of the lack of facilities. They really felt like this impacted your ability to recruit at a higher level.
Bowden. "Oh, it did. It did. But once we got it approved, I felt we had it addressed. It was just a matter of could I hang on until it got finished. Because I used pictures to show recruits for so many years. Now, can you hang on until these things are completed? People you recruit against are pretty smart. When kids left our campus, they'd go on recruiting visits to Auburn or South Carolina and they were asked, 'Did they show you those pictures again at Clemson? They've been showing them to prospects for years.'
"It got old. It just started to get old. It definitely affected us."
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Valley Legend [12954]
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Re: Bowden vs Brownell (resources and support)
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Mar 10, 2023, 2:19 PM
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The problem is the two programs are different as we have historically been a top 20 program in football and a bottom feeder in basketball. Hard to put a finger on exactly why that is the case but is not uncommon. For example, UNC, UVA and Duke has been good in basketball but not so much in football. So if we accept the fact that our basketball program has struggled historically then how do we overcome whatever it is that is keeping us in the bottom half of the league? We can cycle through coaches as we have always done which sometimes yields short term success but the coach typically bolts at the first opportunity (OPP and Barnes are two examples) and we have to start over. Many schools invest in facilities and amenities to push a program up the ladder.
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All-In [10404]
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Re: Bowden vs Brownell (resources and support)
Mar 10, 2023, 2:28 PM
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Can you ever stay on topic in a thread? The topic is about another lie/myth that JK likes to spread.
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CU Guru [1560]
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Re: Bowden vs Brownell (resources and support)
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Mar 10, 2023, 3:05 PM
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Ok so you dislike CBB. Next.
Do you like Clemson or just football?
Do you only like to complain and gripe even when the Clemson basketball program is having success?
Do you at least admit that Clemson had much more success and was seen as a football school before and during Bowden as Clemson's coach?
Do you think Dabo should coach basketball too?
Does it irk you that a national group has CBB as a candidate for National Coach of the Year?
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All-In [10404]
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Re: Bowden vs Brownell (resources and support)
Mar 10, 2023, 3:39 PM
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Do you read an original post and respond to that?
Do you only complain and gripe because you're not even responding to the original post?
Do you at least admit you didn't read or can't comprehend the original post?
Do you think you should read the original post too?
Does it irk you that you can't read or understand the original post?
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Rival Killer [2852]
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I can believe it
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Mar 10, 2023, 3:15 PM
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For years post-Danny there was a lot of friction between the Administration and the football program. I'm sure a lot of posters here know more about this than I do, but for a long time - dating back to Max Lennon - the view was that the football program was detrimental to the academic success of the University. And some of it was probably a reaction to the football probations we suffered under Pell and then Ford.
I think we can see the foolhardiness of that point of view - football success has led to unprecedented excellence in Clemson academics. See the record number of freshman applications, SAT scores, etc.
It's interesting to hear about Tommy West's input into this. I think Tommy Bowden deserves a ton of credit for the things he did to get us where we are today.
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CU Medallion [20868]
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She likely knows this but chooses to ignore as it
Mar 10, 2023, 3:30 PM
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doesn't fit her trolling efforts. She won't acknowledge and will simply continue to say different.
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