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Orange Blooded [2561]
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We all know....
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Oct 28, 2024, 2:59 PM
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..that college football no longer has much to do with going to college especially now that NIL and trnaferring is running wide open. The question now is there a point when colleges just start dropping out of football because they can't contribute to a profitable business model. Why should the profitable teams share money with the unprofitable schools? This entire set up makes no sense at all.
Does college football eventually divorce itself from college entirely? What I mean is what other businesses do colleges operate that are not under the guise of student recreation?
Granted some schools make alot of cash from football, but there's eventually going to be a point when the teams want to run themselves as a business with an owner that just might not be the college. They might play at a school, and be named for the school, but may have no link to the school at all other than name and location. A complete training league....the NFL B league.
It really become a convoluted and logically impossible business model to sustain.
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Dynasty Maker [3491]
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Re: We all know....
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Oct 28, 2024, 3:15 PM
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It's an interesting question. As to whether colleges just start dropping out, I would expect that this will happen on some level, though I'd expect that farther down the rung than FBS. (FCS? Div II, III, NAIA etc.)
However, this dynamic could eventually result in more "divisions" of football. We had the I-A/I-AA distinction created in 1978, and while all the non-power conferences are still part of FBS (formerly
I-A), I wouldn't be shocked if we see another division created at some point to account for the fact that the non-power conferences are going to be further adrift from the power structure and financial resources of the Big Ten/SEC conglomerate than they are even now. I just can't imagine all those- what we would formerly call "mid-major" programs fielding teams without at some point wanting to group themselves into another division and have their own championship structures. That doesn't mean they still won't be losing players in the NIL wars, but at least their prestige and goals they have as a program will make them more alluring and maybe that level of competition can find it's niche w/in the NIL world.
But, that's just some speculation. So much has changed and some of it fairly quickly, so who knows.
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Orange Blooded [2323]
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Re: We all know....
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Oct 28, 2024, 3:41 PM
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Curious as to what effect that would have on a school that also considers themselves an academic institution. I realize that money talks. And in this instance, it's speaking loudly. But which state program and BOT will stand up when a degree from Football U. means nothing? Will enrollment decline for the non-athlete that is trying to get a job and the interviewer says, "oh, you got a degree from there, huh."?
I think it's a double edged sword if a school decides they're going all-in on being Football U.
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Orange Blooded [2585]
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Re: We all know....
Oct 30, 2024, 8:30 AM
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We need only look to Vandy and Duke. Vandy in particular seems to have gotten the message that if they are to stay relevant in major college football they will need to commit to being good at the sport. They seem to be moving that direction with facilities upgrades and a fairly decent team this year. I think another question might be what happens if the profitability of being good at the highest level of football starts making sense to the Ivy league schools? Talk about having the money to have a truly great team. It seems that movement in the way a sport is perceived there are always unintended "consequences" and money is a powerful motivator.
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Starter [258]
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Re: We all know....
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Oct 28, 2024, 3:20 PM
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I agree with you. The direction seems to be that college football is no longer associated with education. Very sad.
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Varsity [110]
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Very sad that decades of exploitation ended?
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Oct 29, 2024, 11:33 AM
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Not even!
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Ultimate Clemson Legend [102836]
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Yes, in the past athletes were forced -- sometimes with threat of violence -- to
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Oct 29, 2024, 11:39 AM
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play a sport in exchange for free tuition & fees, free meals, free housing, and free trips to other locales.
Exploitation to the nth degree.
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Varsity [110]
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So you missed the obvious...
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Oct 29, 2024, 3:33 PM
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And replied with a Strawman argument.
How illogical of you.
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Tiger Spirit [9438]
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LOL! Cry more diaper baby!***
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Oct 29, 2024, 3:42 PM
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Varsity [110]
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Your parents obviously didn't love you...
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Oct 30, 2024, 9:25 AM
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Or they would have made you wear the helmet and stopped you from licking the windows.
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Orange Blooded [2147]
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Poster's was statement was satirical and obviously not "strawmanning" ****
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Oct 30, 2024, 11:20 AM
[ in reply to So you missed the obvious... ] |
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Ultimate Clemson Legend [102836]
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He loves to throw out psychological terms without a real understanding
Oct 30, 2024, 12:24 PM
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of what they mean.
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Varsity [110]
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Wrong again.
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Oct 30, 2024, 3:28 PM
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The post I responded met the textbook definition of Strawman.
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Varsity [110]
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That's exactly what it was...
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Oct 30, 2024, 12:03 PM
[ in reply to Yes, in the past athletes were forced -- sometimes with threat of violence -- to ] |
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and in some cases still is.
The courts have repeatedly stated that.
Perhaps you've heard io fair market value?
Suspending sthketes for accepting a free meal or for an autograph certainly isn't that.
Are you still mad that Lincoln freed the slaves, too?
"Nowhere else in America can businesses get away with agreeing not to pay their workers a fair market rate on the theory that their product is defined by not paying their workers a fair market rate
Under ordinary principles of antitrust law, it is not evident why college sports should be any different."
"The NCAA is not above the law."
SCOTUS Justice Brett Kavanaugh
Concurring opinion
NCAA vs Alston
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Varsity [110]
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That's an Appeal to Outliers.
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Oct 30, 2024, 3:31 PM
[ in reply to Yes, in the past athletes were forced -- sometimes with threat of violence -- to ] |
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You used an extreme example in a bogus state or to define that as the norm.
Plenty of exploitation going on that doesn't nert your extreme, cherry picked attempt st comparison.
And what you like certainly is a form of exploitation...and it's disgusting.
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Ultimate Clemson Legend [102836]
TigerPulse: 100%
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How many times
Oct 30, 2024, 3:38 PM
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do you plan to respond to the same post?
I realize internetting isn't for everyone.
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Valley Legend [12210]
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Re: We all know....
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Oct 28, 2024, 3:28 PM
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Hard no. Unless multiple sports are eliminated, football cannot be because it pays the bills. Do not forget the laws that require women's sports and football provides for those teams.
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All-Conference [431]
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Re: We all know....
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Oct 28, 2024, 4:26 PM
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Yes. I think the smaller schools will eventually drop football all together because they can't afford the NIL and the bags of cash the kids are requiring to play football. I also do think that sooner than later football will divorce itself from the NCAA and tell the go "F" themselves and we will officially be NFL minor leagues. We are already headed that way with basically pay-to-play we have no, and revenue sharing on the way.
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Varsity [110]
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Probably not.
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Oct 29, 2024, 3:34 PM
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They'll just have smaller NIL and revenue sharing and continue to compete at their level.
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Varsity [110]
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False premise. All college athletes must be students.
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Oct 28, 2024, 5:36 PM
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They must maintain a minimum GPA of 2.3 in their core courses in addition to the following:
Complete 24 semester or 36 quarter hours of degree credit each academic year.
Earn at least 18 semester or 27 quarter hours between the start of fall classes and spring commencement.
That has "student" written all over it.
It's one of the few things in the NCAA sports model that is actually legal.
So, no, we don't all know what you thought you knew
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Orange Blooded [2561]
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Re: False premise. All college athletes must be students.
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Oct 29, 2024, 10:02 AM
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Wow...are you a visionary or what? You are familiar with the term RINO right? Student athletics in name only is what all those rules you listed amount to...all that stuff will be officially dropped as it gets gerrymandered in the current system to work out anyway.
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Varsity [110]
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Prove it
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Oct 29, 2024, 11:32 AM
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I'll pop some popcorn and wait.
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Orange Blooded [2561]
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Re: Prove it
Oct 30, 2024, 5:10 PM
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Dude, you are going to eat alot of popcorn. It's not like it will happen soon. It might be ten years or more, but the direction it is all going eventually schools will have players that are not students at all, just employees of the team. Captain Obvious says that the college model of amateur student athletes is doomed or will be revived by returning to a students first model. Since a good training league (perhaps semi-pro) football is big business why should these guys go to colleges at all? The answer will come in whether colleges continue to attempt to play in a business they cannot afford to be in.
Under the current model only 14 of the current FBS football programs actually made a profit last year according to a report from the NCAA in spite of all the cash swirling around. In total, only 10% of all college athletic programs break even (you can look this up for yourself).
The big football schools make plenty of money on it, but there are more than a hundred schools that can't afford to keep up. It is a matter of time until they just give up on it as there is no point to field a team that loses money trying to play on the big stage when it can go back to purely amateur student athletics and make money from stadium tickets, play regional schools only and that's it.
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Varsity [110]
TigerPulse: 92%
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Football is hugely profitable for most of the schools.
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Oct 29, 2024, 10:57 AM
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Even a middling program like Troy made around $33 million last year.
College football has always been a NFL minor league. It didn't suddenly change when the players started getting NIL money or the ability to transfer like every other student.
No connection to the school other than name and location? Like the only connection that Pickens has to Pickens County is name and location? Like the only connection to Atlanta the Braves have is name and location?
The sky is not falling, Chicken Little.
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Orange Blooded [2561]
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Re: Football is hugely profitable for most of the schools.
Oct 30, 2024, 5:13 PM
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I just read a report from NCAA that said gross profits are one thing, but net profits are only shown by 14 of the FBS teams playing today.
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Orange Blooded [2538]
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Re: We all know....
Oct 29, 2024, 11:33 AM
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ALL BUBBLES POP
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Paw Warrior [5022]
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Re: We all know....
Oct 29, 2024, 3:51 PM
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The money chase will bring college and pro together. No limit to salaries, no university enrollment requirement, no four year eligibility limit, unlimited transfers. We are headed to a multi-tiered football league, just like pro soccer (as pro soccer is everywhere except in the U.S.).
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Hall of Famer [8864]
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Re: We all know....
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Oct 30, 2024, 8:10 AM
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There is so much money involved these days, even the small schools are jumping in with football programs. When we lived in Texas, there were no football programs at many of the schools who are now playing with the big boys. For example, UTSA, Texas State,Houston Baptist and many, many others. Back home in SC we now find football at Anderson University and schools like them. As long as there is money to be made, more and more schools will continue to wade into the fray.
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Rival Killer [2913]
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When sensible eligibility rules can be put in place, being a student first will
Oct 30, 2024, 8:16 AM
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become the priority again
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Varsity [110]
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Please objectively define "sensible rules"******
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Oct 30, 2024, 8:19 AM
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Rival Killer [2913]
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Sitting out for transfer, 3 year scholarship commitment, 5 year max to play...***
Oct 30, 2024, 9:22 AM
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Varsity [110]
TigerPulse: 92%
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That's nut a viable definition.
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Oct 30, 2024, 9:30 AM
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Sitting out for transfers - violates the judicial decisions in Ohio vs NCAA and is this illegal.
3 year scholarship commitment also violates that federal court order.
5 year max to play violates the NCAA's own existing rules.
Your definition of "sensible" needs some work.
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Ultimate Clemson Legend [102836]
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Allowing athletes to play only four years in college violates their
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Oct 30, 2024, 9:33 AM
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Constitutional rights and is illegal. They should be allowed to play college ball until they're at least in their fourties.
Signed,
Bluffton OrangeMan
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Varsity [110]
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That's utterly dishonest of you.
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Oct 30, 2024, 9:41 AM
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I said no such thing. Stop trying to dishonestly pawn if what you said as my words.
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Ultimate Clemson Legend [102836]
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You disagree?
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Oct 30, 2024, 11:15 AM
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How could you place these limitations on the ability of college athletes to earn money?
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Varsity [110]
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I disagree with people dishonestly trying to put words in my mouth******
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Oct 30, 2024, 12:00 PM
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National Champion [7736]
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Rival Killer [2913]
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Varsity [110]
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No, it doesn't.
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Oct 30, 2024, 12:05 PM
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Your lack of athletic ability isn't a Constitutional issue.
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Rival Killer [2913]
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You know nothing of my athletic ability***
Oct 30, 2024, 1:07 PM
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Varsity [110]
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I know if you had any, we wouldn't be having this discussion.***
Oct 30, 2024, 3:25 PM
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Rival Killer [2913]
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I still have skills, and the constitution guarantees me unlimited eligibility***
Oct 31, 2024, 11:00 AM
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MVP [500]
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Re: We all know....
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Oct 30, 2024, 9:39 AM
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The LOVE of money, the root of all evil, spoken by a Man of God.
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Varsity [110]
TigerPulse: 92%
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Then you should immediately refuse to accept any money for your work...
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Oct 30, 2024, 12:07 PM
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...and refuse to ever accept Social Security, a pension, or Medicare.
Because to do otherwise would be nauseatingly hypocritical of you. 🤮🤮🤮🤮
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Paw Master [17395]
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This is an excellent post. That's the end game. Stop the charade entirely.
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Oct 30, 2024, 11:13 AM
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This is not college football. It is the NFL development league, with teams located at or near college campuses.
Let the football programs completely separate from the schools. If the schools (or towns) permit, they can lease the school's name as the location for the franchise (heck...maybe it would be the other way around...schools can pay the teams for sponsorship rights, to keep their name out there). If the schools want to offer an opportunity for the players to take classes there, that's up to them. On campus stadiums and practice facilities can likewise be leased to the teams on terms that both organizations determine mutually.
Enough is enough...these teams have very little to do with having "student-athletes" represent the school on the field of play. It is a developmental league for the NFL.
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Varsity [110]
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Is reality difficult for you?
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Oct 30, 2024, 12:13 PM
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The college teams have been the (unpaid) NFL minor leagues for decades.
The teams clearly are still college teams.
They have all of the college identification, fan support, and traditions they e always had.
They make tons of money for the schools, and for local businesses like concessions and merch vendors.
Clemson made something north of $195 million from football in 2023.
It would be crazy to give that up in return for a relative pittance of stadium rental revenue.
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Paw Master [17395]
TigerPulse: 100%
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It is difficult. I'm not very smart. Which is why it's good you're here.
Oct 30, 2024, 12:58 PM
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So can you point me to the details on how Clemson made $195 million in 2023 from football, and what that money was allocated to? That will help me understand your perspective.
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National Champion [7736]
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Re: It is difficult. I'm not very smart. Which is why it's good you're here.
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Oct 30, 2024, 1:07 PM
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Clemson made 196M in TOTAL, not just football
Football revenue was $77M
Football ticket sales was $28M
Football concessions/parking etc was $1.1M
Football media rights was $26M
Football royalties was $2M
Football total revenue ~$134M
Football profit was $10M which was down 35% from the prior year
Source: https://bvmsports.com/2024/03/15/how-clemson-football-performed-financially-in-fy2023/
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Rival Killer [2913]
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I wouldn't care if that was zero, I like Clemson, the University, not just
Oct 30, 2024, 1:22 PM
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the football team
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Varsity [110]
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I like Clemson, the University too.
Oct 31, 2024, 11:06 AM
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Not just the football team.
I like Clemson so much I don't want the school to keep getting hit with millions of dollars in liabilities from the NCAA's stupidity.
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Paw Master [17395]
TigerPulse: 100%
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Varsity [110]
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Paw Master [17395]
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As weve established, Im not very smart, so maybe Im misreading the article
Oct 30, 2024, 6:19 PM
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you linked, but what I see is that gross revenue increased by $37.7M.
Total profits from the athletic profit was $21.7M. It also says that Football’s profit was $10.1M, and that it was the only sports program that turned a profit. I’m not sure how that works that we made $21.7M but only had one profitable program which only made $10.1M. Maybe some of the AD profits come from a general fund (merchandising or some such).
Anyway, given that the school will owe $20-$22M according to you in “revenue sharing”, and guessing that the revenue sharing doesn’t account for the mandated increase in scholarships, it seems like the Athletic Department will just be treading water. Seems very reasonable to offload and let greater business minds, who aren’t distracted being an institution of higher learning, take over.
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Varsity [110]
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Increased scholarships...
Oct 31, 2024, 10:28 AM
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A few points...
1. No school HAS to offer 105 scholarships. It's not mandated. That's the cap, not the minimum. Any school can have fewer if they choose.
2. Scholarships don't cost the school much cash, relatively speaking.. It's mostly in kind support. I don't have dollar figures.
3. The costs to field non revenue sports teams is a factor, especially with the West Coast travel factor now. We may see some of them dropped.
4. The biggest change is not the 105 scholarships. It's the elimination of walk ons. The NCAA hasn't given a reason for that, as far as I've seen. My guess is that it's due to the fair market value" issues in Alston vs NCAA, Tennessee/Virginia vs NCAA, and esoecially in the proposed House vs NCAA settlement. That's the case that is going to generate some kind of revenue sharing. Walk ons are pretty much an oxymoron in a revenue sharing age, because they probably wouldn't be eligible for it. That would likely start another round of lawsuits, something the NCAA obviously doesn't want.
5. The sticking point holding up the House settlement is that the NCAA tried to insert clause to let them monitor all future NIL deals of more than $600. The judge and the plaintiffs are balking at that. If the NCAA is smart, they'll drop that clause and settle for the proposed $ 2 point something billion that's supposed to find the back pay and future revenue sharing. If they don't, there will be no settlement, revenue sharing will be on hold, and if they lose the case, it's going to cost them far more than 2 billion and change. THAT would be far more expensive for Clemson and every other FBS schools except for the 3 military academies. I don't think anyone really wants that. I certainly don't.
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Varsity [110]
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Varsity [110]
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Obviously I misread that.
Oct 31, 2024, 10:51 AM
[ in reply to Re: It is difficult. I'm not very smart. Which is why it's good you're here. ] |
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However, there's a pretty obvious solution to the overall margin being down around $10 million.
Cut Dabo's salary to $1 million annually. Use the other 10 million for the offset.
Think of the opportunity it would give him for additional moralizing on the side using himself as the example.
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National Champion [7347]
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It's "To Have and Have Not" writ large.
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Oct 30, 2024, 12:21 PM
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This NIL/Portal thing has created a zygote that will detach from the main body of college football at some point, and grow/live on it's own. Those are the P4 "haves."
The have nots, meanwhile, are the silent majority. Those D1/D2 programs that attract kids who don't have delusions of NIL and/or NFL grandeur -- those who just want to play ball and get educated on the school's dime.
I reckon it's just business as usual for those programs.
As a fan of a giant program like Clemson, there are times when I feel very acutely the corporatized nature of the P4 experience -- the incessant messaging, everything is "sponsored by," every idle minute is crammed with something to keep the brand front and center. It's a big business.
Some games, it wears on me. Others, I don't notice as much. But I know that what our family pays for tickets, parking spots (Tiger Park condos/play pen) goes up, up always up. And for many of us, it's becoming a matter of stewardship -- how much are we willing to give of our time/treasure to support what is essentially an NFL football franchise?
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Head Coach [998]
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Re: We all know....
Oct 30, 2024, 1:00 PM
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I been thinking the same thing. I can only imaging that if Clemson and other top programs in the ACC receive a larger split the other teams will suffer. It seems this would ultimately make the conference weaker as a whole.
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Varsity [110]
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As opposed to Clemson potentially winning the lawsuit
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Oct 30, 2024, 3:26 PM
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Getting out of the GOR, and leaving the conference completely?
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National Champion [8076]
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Multiple Divisions Coming!
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Oct 30, 2024, 6:45 PM
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I agree with you! Just_Sayin
The current G5 needs their own National Championship.
Most schools will fall into this category!
As you and others have said, "everybody else will get priced out"! At least, if you hope to be competitive and field a team that has a realistic chance to compete - you had better go to the level you can compete in.
This is done already in football because of "competitive advantages"! This would just be another iteration of a similar thought process.
Otherwise, hitting the fast forward button a bit, to me one day you end up with Birmingham Stallions versus the San Antonio Roughnecks! I.E. pro ball - I might watch or I might go watch paint dry instead. One day when it's only Michigan and Texas or the other Oil Money schools versus Ohio State - it will alienate me and likely Millions of others who just won't care. Their school wasn't involved at any point in the process.
If Clemson wasn't in that mix. Whatever level they fall into is what, I would keep up with and spend time and money on learning about/watching "ONLY"! Just checking other schools message boards of schools who won't likely be in that big money league - I won't be the only one that's like that. Will they care; no. But, the feeling would be 100% mutual.
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Ultimate Tiger [38731]
TigerPulse: 100%
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Re: We all know....amateur athletics
Oct 30, 2024, 7:13 PM
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So basically the premise of amateur athletics, whether we are talking NCAA or olympics, is over. I don’t like it, but you can’t fight progress. Right?
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Varsity [110]
TigerPulse: 92%
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That's not what needs to happen.
Oct 31, 2024, 10:47 AM
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If the football team becomes employees, OR the team separates from the school,
that takes away a lot of Title IX issues from dropping the women's sports, too.
See that would not only kill off the mend non revenue sports, it would kill most of the women's sports as well. I don't want that, do you?
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