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Ukraine
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Ukraine


Feb 25, 2022, 6:31 PM

History is the deal to look at.
The USA has lost soldiers fighting in places like VN and Korea. We have died in France, England, Germany, Pacific, etc.

Fighting terrorist has had us in dying in many, many other places.

Whether any of the above was the correct thing, or not, is not the question. Is the Ukraine one of the places we should die in? I can make a strong argument for and against.



Would you want your kids to fight there? Of course not, you would not want them to fight any place.
I signed up with the USA ARMY in 1966 for 4 years, and my Mom wept as she had lived through WW11.

The deal for me is if we fight, "fight to win" and hold nothing back. Politicians waste lives as they are all about polls and votes.



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the tug abides


Troops?


Feb 25, 2022, 6:39 PM

I am anti-war but there comes a time where you can't avoid it. WW2 was a good example. Looking back, the US should have gotten involved much sooner in my opinion.

Wars seldom start over values, mostly its about money.

No way can we send troops into Ukraine but there is a lot more NATO can do.

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Re: Troops?


Feb 25, 2022, 6:43 PM

You are 100% correct. This is a job for Europe. Wrong or right the USA is a part of NATO. NATO has become a useless political mess.

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the tug abides


Re: Troops?


Feb 25, 2022, 6:49 PM

Tug - you hit it on the head. If we fight we need to fight to win. And unfortunately there isn’t anything in this for us to win. At least not at this point. The last time we were in one with something to win was WWII. The rest since then have all been wasting our boys (and girls) lives for someone’s political gain.

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Re: Troops?


Feb 25, 2022, 6:56 PM

I do not agree with all you posted, some things are worth the USA fighting for. How great would it be if the politicians lined up and fought to the death?

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the tug abides


Re: Troops?


Feb 25, 2022, 7:06 PM

I’m just not sure this is one of them. And to your point, they are only worth fighting for if you are fighting to win. I do like the idea of sending the politicians. Maybe a new approach to term limits. If you’ve been on Capitol Hill more than 10 years you go first.

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Real leaders lead


Feb 25, 2022, 7:14 PM

In olden day the leader was first on the line.


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the tug abides


Re: Real leaders lead


Feb 25, 2022, 7:42 PM

These people aren’t leaders. And on second thought, sending them is the polar opposite of fighting to win.

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polar opposite


Feb 25, 2022, 7:46 PM

Yeah, but then there would be less WAR.

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the tug abides


Re: Troops?


Feb 25, 2022, 8:12 PM [ in reply to Re: Troops? ]

not just political,but monetary as well.

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null


Imagine at the end of WW2


Feb 25, 2022, 6:57 PM [ in reply to Re: Troops? ]

NATO was formed and it did mean something to those who fought and lost loved ones in the war, trust me.

Article 5 in NATO says, "you attack one, you attack all". This is the only thing that scares Putin. Putin said he didn't want Ukraine to join NATO because it would bring NATO to Russia's border but if he takes over Ukraine they are STILL bordering NATO! Its BS.

It's not Europe's problem, it's the free world's problem.


Message was edited by: PACIFIC BEACH TIGER®


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"trust me"


Feb 25, 2022, 7:06 PM

For a couple years was back in the woods in a NATO unit with about 40 guys. We had no USA vehicles, etc. We even had NATO blankets to sleep under.
We had tactical NUKES. Our mission was to stop any USSR tank invasion, and we could easily do that.
WAR today is not what most think it will be.

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the tug abides


Re: Imagine at the end of WW2 - - - buffer states vs. Russia


Feb 25, 2022, 8:03 PM [ in reply to Imagine at the end of WW2 ]

History also speaks to the correctness of your statement, PACIFIC BEACH TIGER®, that despite public proclamations to the contrary (on both sides), Russia (Soviet Union) doesn't give two shizzes about being next door neighbors to potentially hostile states.

Soviet Union had buffer states of Lithuania and Poland as buffer states between them and Germany prior to 1939.

Stalin's secret alliance with Nazi Germany in August 1939 was for Soviet Union to occupy the eastern part of Poland; Nazi Germany occupied western part of Poland. Buffer state gone ... at Soviet Union's pleasure.

Stalin annexed Lithuania in August 1940. The other buffer state between Soviet Union and Nazi Germany was gone ... at Soviet Union's pleasure.

NATO deludes itself by wanting to believe that having a NATO member like Romania or Bulgaria is somehow a deterrent to Russia. Only the USA as a NATO member has the teeth to truly deter Russia. When the USA appears to be weak-willed, then NATO becomes essentially impotent.

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buffer states vs. Russia


Feb 25, 2022, 8:35 PM

Excellent post.
On the flip many Americans feel a need for all to have freedom. That causes problems.

If one human lacks it - we all do.

"NATO deludes itself by wanting to believe that having a NATO member like Romania or Bulgaria is somehow a deterrent to Russia."

In the day it was. In today's world miles means less. One over looked deal is Artillery. Many think it is all about rockets and airplanes.

The final deal these days is who can deliver or defend the NUKES.
The USA gave Putin the "go-ahead". Soon China will demand the same as to Taiwan.

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the tug abides


We have cruise missiles, submarines, drones,


Feb 25, 2022, 7:30 PM [ in reply to Troops? ]

satellites and EMPs that could dampen their spirit.

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"When I die, I want to go peacefully like my Grandfather did, in his sleep -- not screaming, like the passengers in his car."

"I don't suffer from insanity. I enjoy every minute of it."


Re: We have cruise missiles, submarines, drones,


Feb 25, 2022, 7:40 PM

Others also have lots of that.
How long can you keep you family alive if the electric grid goes down. That is kinda our job -> defend the Bride.

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the tug abides


Re: Ukraine


Feb 25, 2022, 6:40 PM

Thank You, Tug, for having the “guts” to try and make a difference.

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no guts


Feb 25, 2022, 6:49 PM

Thanks but I was too smart to have "guts".
In the day kids were being drafted.

I saw a movie:


I decided not to die in the mud on the ground but to be above it all.

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the tug abides


Re: no guts


Feb 25, 2022, 8:17 PM

believe i first saw that movie at the theater in downtown CU.maybe the Y.

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null


Re: Ukraine


Feb 25, 2022, 7:18 PM

Ukraine has ordered any males 18-60 to pick up arms and fight. That’s a broad brush draft right there. Not trained or well armed against this Russian Army? This could become a tragically ugly slaughter.

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Re: Ukraine


Feb 25, 2022, 8:04 PM

Berlin did that as Russians approached.
Ukraine can not in any fashion slow what ever Russia wants to do.

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the tug abides


Re: Ukraine


Feb 25, 2022, 8:20 PM [ in reply to Re: Ukraine ]

kinda reminds of schicklgruber trying to defend berlin at the end.

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null


War


Feb 25, 2022, 7:33 PM

PACIFIC BEACH TIGER®

I am sure he and I differ on most things so a good debate. I respect him.


"I am anti-war but there comes a time where you can't avoid it. WW2 was a good example. Looking back, the US should have gotten involved much sooner in my opinion."

I agree.

In the USA there were factions and even protests "for" and "against" as to entering WW11. Pearl Harbor may have hurt Germany more than us as it scared folks and made them angry.
Entering WW11 was politics. It was difficult for any politician to support that. Unlike today, the oceans made us safe.

The English had killed many of us in a couple wars. We were not fans. Many here had English and Irish roots, that --> (and common sense) took the day.

Some claim $$ and it is always a deal, but in the end it is how how $$ controls politicians.


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the tug abides


Re: War


Feb 25, 2022, 7:51 PM

Putin knows that the US has no taste for war after Afghanistan. As for NATO. They are always strong out of the blocks but quickly fade to just the US being the lone horse out front in the end. This mess scares me. I fear there are others in the shadows with Putin waiting to jump in.

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Like who?***


Feb 25, 2022, 7:57 PM



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Re: Like who?***


Feb 25, 2022, 8:10 PM

Romania and/or Bulgaria ... both of which are NATO members.

Bulgaria puts Russia next door to Turkey; Turkey is still the biggest key to getting access to the open seas for Russia.

Romania is an oil state; Russia taking over Romania is akin to Sadam Hussein's attempt to take over Kuwait.

Too bad that the 'peaceful world' doesn't appear to have the stomach to stop this from happening; we are left to hoping that Russia won't move on either of these two.

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Re: Like who?***


Feb 25, 2022, 8:24 PM [ in reply to Like who?*** ]

Don't forget China and North Korea would just love the opportunity to take a shot at the U.S.

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don't tread on me


Feb 25, 2022, 8:07 PM [ in reply to Re: War ]

Most shine on the fact that no one on Earth can stand up to the USA.

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the tug abides


Re: don't tread on me


Feb 25, 2022, 9:34 PM

And I think that is true - as long as our leaders use the tools at their disposal wisely. And , to your earlier point, finish.

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Re: War


Feb 25, 2022, 7:56 PM [ in reply to War ]

Very true about the $$$. I wish that the politicians had our best interests at heart. They don't.

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Re: War


Feb 25, 2022, 8:25 PM

unless you're a senator's son.where's john fogerty?

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null


Re: War


Feb 25, 2022, 8:41 PM

In my day avoiding the draft was for the rich.
Clinton escaped to Oxford.
Bush was taken in to the National Guard.
Guys who escaped to Canada were called criminals.

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the tug abides


Re: Ukraine


Feb 25, 2022, 8:07 PM

No US leaders are considering sending troops to Ukraine.

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Re: Ukraine


Feb 25, 2022, 8:43 PM

Good fun, name one who deserves to be called a "leader'

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the tug abides


NATO


Feb 25, 2022, 8:18 PM

For decades the USA has demanded the NATO countries commit a tiny % of their $$$ to defense. None comply, not one. They make us pay that bill. Why is that on us?

What we have done is to "sell" them advanced weapons and then pay for it with USA tax $$. That makes many wealthy including all our politicians.

NATO can stand up to Russia. Russia would loose that battle. Their threat (like ours) is unthinkable destruction in all countries.

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the tug abides


Re: NATO


Feb 25, 2022, 8:30 PM

only the profiteers and politicians gain.the casualties come back and have to depend on the generosity of the private sector for support-wounded warriors,tunnels to towers,etc.

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null


Re: NATO


Feb 25, 2022, 9:41 PM [ in reply to NATO ]

This is what concerns me about Putin’s comments. Unfortunately Russia and other countries including the US have the ability to change the world as we know it with one push of a button. Is he bluffing? One heck of a gamble. This is what is different from previous world wars. Nothing is out of range at this point.

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Putin


Feb 25, 2022, 9:57 PM

No man in the world has his power.
In history that has seldom gone well.

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the tug abides


Re: Ukraine


Feb 25, 2022, 9:42 PM

General Patton said during WW2, "There is no substitute for victory." You don't go to war unless you are committed to winning it.

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Re: Ukraine


Feb 25, 2022, 10:01 PM

As many have stated in here already- the politicians have no stomach for anything-now a days-
Well except for becoming rich.
I hope it ends soon- as I truly feel the USA would be in a he LL of a bad situation- with our military in the shape it is in and the brainless politicians that are in office- not all of them but a lot of them.

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Ukraine Defense Force


Feb 25, 2022, 10:02 PM

This makes me sad and ashamed.



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the tug abides


this is why biden screaming


Feb 25, 2022, 10:11 PM

" any invasion will be met with swift and severe consequence"...when you have no plans to really do anything at all makes him look weak af

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Re: Ukraine


Feb 25, 2022, 10:23 PM

No but Biden has a lot of blood on his hands. He allowed for the oil pipeline from Russia and we buy oil from Russia. Both of these items help pay for Putin's war chess.

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Frankly, I don't believe the American people would


Feb 26, 2022, 4:25 AM

stand for any commitment of U.S. troops into the Ukraine, although sympathy for them abounds.

Told friends some time ago that I thought Ukraine should declare itself neutral, much like Switzerland, retract its request for NATO membership, while reserving its rights to negotiate peaceful trade agreements with whomever. That would create a neutral buffer that I believe the Russians would accept.

While I deplore the Russian agression, I believe the Russian mentality differs vastly from ours in that their centuries-old history has made them paranoid about neighbors. In fact I have held to the opinion that it would have been a better scenario had other states, such as the Balkans, Poland, etc. also declare themselves neutrals, refraining from alliances other than trade treaties.

Lastly, Putin is of himself a scourge upon his own people, much less anyone else. Hence, the Russians would be far better situated were they to oust him and allow a younger generation to attempt peacefully to integrate their country into world society sans the skullduggery fostered by the likes of the Putin types.

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Speaking of history, Biden = Nevill Chamberlain***


Feb 26, 2022, 6:47 AM



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That Neville Chamberlain fella sure gets around


Feb 26, 2022, 7:29 AM

I think I just saw him in Germany, France and Italy. He was wringing his hands about green energy and wondering when the sun would shine and the wind would blow..... :)

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Re: Ukraine


Feb 26, 2022, 7:37 AM

I think we should impose trade sanctions on any country that is not also sanctioning Russia aka China. Russia is slowly taking more and more land in Georgia.

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Re: Ukraine


Feb 26, 2022, 8:11 AM

This could have been prevented. Who didn't see it coming? Peace through strength.

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Re: Ukraine


Feb 26, 2022, 8:14 AM

When offered a lift out of Ukraine, Zelensky said “ I need guns, not a ride”.

Heroes to Russian Warship “ Russian Warship, go #### yourself”


There has been some epic quotes out of those folks in Ukraine. Hope folks in this country would stand up like the majority there have.

I can’t help but feel for a those who are dealing with this.

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Re: Ukraine


Feb 26, 2022, 10:19 AM

If we had only listened to General Patton!!

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Re: Ukraine


Feb 26, 2022, 10:47 AM

https://news.sky.com/video/ukrainian-border-guards-tell-russian-warship-go-f-yourself-12551537


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