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Orange Blooded [4035]
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Honest question: Brads vocal defenders/ supporters - why?
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Mar 7, 2023, 1:36 PM
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I am not trying to start a war - just curious.
There are several (at least) very vocal Brad supporters/ defenders. Who take every opportunity to shout down or ridicule people wanting to make a change. Who become critical of Dabo (even his haircut) and jealous of our football program.
What is it that drives you to believe that after 13 years - that Brad should be our coach going forward? It is not like Brad has won a lot of titles and simply on a bad 13 year streak. Or that he is like Coach Howard or Ford and now part of Clemson lore.
I don’t understand - but - maybe I just don’t get it.
Please make a honest - polite - effort to explain it to those of us who want to give someone else a try. (Knowing full well - that we might take a step back.)
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Legend [16240]
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Re: Honest question: Brads vocal defenders/ supporters - why?
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Mar 7, 2023, 1:40 PM
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She doesn't believe Brad is all that, she just uses the Clemson fan frustration with him and our program over his tenure to troll us. It's a ruse.
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Orange Blooded [3420]
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Re: Honest question: Brads vocal defenders/ supporters - why?
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Mar 7, 2023, 2:02 PM
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The main defense of Brownell is that he is steady and consistent. His teams finish middle of the pack in arguably the top basketball conference in the country and his players stay out of trouble and graduate (mostly).
Quite frankly, Clemson is a football school. I think the AD is satisfied with having a decent or mediocre bball program. To Brownell's credit I don't recall any seasons where we flat out sucked and finished in the bottom 3 of the conference.
When you think of schools like wake forest and louisville, who've traditionally had very strong teams and have completely fallen off, or a school like BC that is a bottom dweller every year then the choice to stick with Brownell and field a mediocre but respectable team makes sense... at least a little bit
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Legend [16058]
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That's truly a loser's attitude. We don't give to IPTAY for
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Mar 7, 2023, 2:05 PM
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a mediocre basketball team. We don't bye season basketball tickets in hopes of going to the NIT. Anyone with that attitude is NOT a true Clemson fan.
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Orange Blooded [3420]
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Re: That's truly a loser's attitude. We don't give to IPTAY for
Mar 7, 2023, 2:20 PM
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Just to be clear, I'm not saying I personally agree with the idea that mediocrity is the best we can hope for. I think if you're being honest and realistic with the whole situation, this is the approach that the athletic department has taken, for better or worse.
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Legend [16902]
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Re: That's truly a loser's attitude. We don't give to IPTAY for
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Mar 7, 2023, 2:22 PM
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But why do they keep giving him raises for this? Extensions I get if they’re happy. But his salary is unmerited.
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All-TigerNet [13478]
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Freshman [-41]
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Heisman Winner [139902]
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Re: Honest question: Brads vocal defenders/ supporters - why?
Mar 7, 2023, 2:39 PM
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I would not call myself a vocal defender. I am just against firing coaches in general. I would not have fired Tommy Bowden, nor Larry Shyatt, nor Jack Leggett, nor Monte Lee, nor even Tommy West or Ken Hatfield. I just believe in sticking with a commitment, win or lose. As much as I love to see the Tigers win, I happen to think Clemson is bigger than Athletics, and firing coaches makes it appear otherwise.
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Legend [17298]
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Re: Honest question: Brads vocal defenders/ supporters - why?
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Mar 7, 2023, 4:12 PM
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Thank goodness you are not the Clemson Athletics Director. We'd have the worst athletic department in the country if we followed that logic that no coach should ever be replaced.
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All-TigerNet [13478]
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CU Guru [1746]
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Commissioner [914]
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I'm not a Brad guy in any way, shape or form.
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Mar 7, 2023, 2:42 PM
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but maybe the pumpers are sick of the constant negativity on Tigernet.
Or maybe they like his odd haircut. It's kind of like a hedgehog with a part.
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Legend [16902]
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Re: I'm not a Brad guy in any way, shape or form.
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Mar 7, 2023, 3:20 PM
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I’m one of the biggest Brownell dumpers on here and I held my tongue until Judge Keller started misrepresenting statistics about Brownell and trash mouthing former players and coaches to pump up Brownell. So I’d say they’ve mostly brought it on themselves. And the vitriol isn’t a fraction of what was thrown at Coach Leggett - and he had a genuinely distinguished career unlike Brownell.
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CU Guru [1893]
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Re: Honest question: Brads vocal defenders/ supporters - why?
Mar 7, 2023, 2:59 PM
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Thirteen years of abject mediocrity is enough. Brownell is never going to win the ACCT or make the NCAA final 4. He has had more than sufficient time to prove that. If mediocrity is your standard, keep him.
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All-Pro [699]
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You could make an argument
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Mar 7, 2023, 3:01 PM
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That Brad is the best basketball coach Clemson had every had. Most of that argument is only a result of his longevity with Clemson, but there’s an argument to be made nether the less. Any firing the best you’ve ever had is always a tough pill to swallow.
However, in no universe is he considered one of the best coaches in the country or even the
conference. Clemson has had a bad history in basketball, but we don’t have to let that continue to constrain us.
I think a move should be made if we don’t make the tournament. We could wind up in a worse position for sure, but it’s clear Brad has taken us as far as he can.
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Legend [16902]
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Re: You could make an argument
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Mar 7, 2023, 3:15 PM
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He’s nowhere close to the best. Any “won the most games” type arguments are immediately offset by the fact that he had also lost the most games.
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Letterman [290]
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Re: Honest question: Brads vocal defenders/ supporters - why?
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Mar 7, 2023, 3:28 PM
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Because they're having the best year in forever and you lot want to fire the coach. It looks dumb really.
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110%er [5962]
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The best year in forever? And we're sitting on the bubble?***
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Mar 7, 2023, 4:27 PM
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Freshman [-98]
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Brad Caused the Greenhouse Effect
Mar 7, 2023, 4:46 PM
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He should be summarily executed.
But seriously, you can blame him on the mediocrity of the program over the years - that's fair.
But it is literally insane to blame him for our seeding issues. There has never been a 3 seed in this position and likely never will be again. I don't care who we lost to early season (though it is ironic that Penn State is using that argument in their loss to us.), we had a great conference record and that should mean a heckuva lot more than losing to a rival and another team that somebody scheduled on Brad's behalf.
And as pointed out, to fire a national coach of the year candidate to make a bunch of fools happy would show a level of immature stupidity that shouldn't even be considered. Who would consider the job knowing that they can win, yet lose.
So I encourage all to ratchet up your iptay donation by $5000/year to help pay Brad off and find a way to get Quinn Snyder - you guys will LOVE him...
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Orange Blooded [2847]
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Quinn already has a job
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Mar 7, 2023, 10:38 PM
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Most of the stuff you read on TigerNet regarding CBB is pure garbage. He will not be fired. 22 wins and a 14-6 record in the ACC. What in the hell do you people want? I know tournament or bust . Everybody following the program wants to go to the tournament. But some of you need to check yourselves. Clemson basketball history is a wasteland. One good season and the coach leaves for better job. The Clemson job is not a good job. Coaches who have coached at Clemson will tell you that. A portion of the fan base just wants to ##### and you are a redheaded stepchild in your own league. That is never going to change. I’ve got news for the you. CBB is respected by his peers. He coaches his ### off. You people act like he wanted to lose the three losses you keep bringing up. And you won’t give him credit for the 22 victories, several in impressive fashion. The core of this year’s team should return for next year. I am excited about the future of the program. I believe it. Some of you other people need to believe it.
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110%er [7969]
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Re: Honest question: Brads vocal defenders/ supporters - why?
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Mar 7, 2023, 3:32 PM
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I am not trying to start a war - just curious.
There are several (at least) very vocal Brad supporters/ defenders. Who take every opportunity to shout down or ridicule people wanting to make a change. Who become critical of Dabo (even his haircut) and jealous of our football program.
What is it that drives you to believe that after 13 years - that Brad should be our coach going forward? It is not like Brad has won a lot of titles and simply on a bad 13 year streak. Or that he is like Coach Howard or Ford and now part of Clemson lore.
I don’t understand - but - maybe I just don’t get it.
Please make a honest - polite - effort to explain it to those of us who want to give someone else a try. (Knowing full well - that we might take a step back.)
If you have to say its an honest question then its not an honest question. For example, you say CBB had a bad 13 year streak yet he is within one win per year on any coach in our history in terms of percentages which would suggest you question is not serious.
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All-In [28349]
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Re: Honest question: Brads vocal defenders/ supporters - why?
Mar 7, 2023, 4:23 PM
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brad sux
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Orange Blooded [4035]
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Re: Honest question: Brads vocal defenders/ supporters - why?
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Mar 7, 2023, 4:26 PM
[ in reply to Re: Honest question: Brads vocal defenders/ supporters - why? ] |
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Thanks, but clearly off base.
I just wanted someone to lay out why. The example I used was simply that if he won a natty and then had a series of bad year (almost like Jim b at Syracuse) then we owe him. IMO.
To me, being close to being the average at Clemson is not a good line.
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110%er [7969]
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Re: Honest question: Brads vocal defenders/ supporters - why?
Mar 7, 2023, 4:41 PM
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Thanks, but clearly off base.
I just wanted someone to lay out why. The example I used was simply that if he won a natty and then had a series of bad year (almost like Jim b at Syracuse) then we owe him. IMO.
To me, being close to being the average at Clemson is not a good line.
Once again it seems you are not trying to understand. Being close to average but on upside by ~ 9% is not good unless you bother to look at context. For example, we expect much more out of our football team because we have demonstrated the potential and invested accordingly. Neither of which is true with basketball. For me i would have no problem with a change as long as we invest in the new coach the way we did with baseball. Unfortunately hiring a mid major coach with no P5 experience would end up in our program going the wrong way. Either the coach bombs or has a couple of years of success and bolts. Either way we are worse off than we are now.
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All-TigerNet [13478]
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Orange Blooded [2669]
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Re: Honest question: Brads vocal defenders/ supporters - why?
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Mar 7, 2023, 5:01 PM
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I find most would consider me a vocal supporter of brownell.
I like him as a person and I like the fact that he runs a clean program. I also think he is a great basketball coach that really develops and gets the most out of his players. He hasn't recruited the best during his tenure, but that has gotten better. Our performance and recruiting have both increased over the last 6 years as a result of the new facility upgrades. We just signed our best class IMO, and we potential have a lot of firepower coming back next year. I think
PJ, chase hunter, and Hemenway all return. I think this is one of the best Clemson teams we have seen over the last 20-30 years, and if we return everyone we could be better next year.
I am on record saying that if we don't make the tournament this year, then he should be fired. Im definitely having second thoughts because I never could have imagined being 3rd in the ACC and not in the tourney. I also love the culture and talent of the team that will be coming back next year. If he hits on next years recruiting class, we could have something special.
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Legend [16902]
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Re: Honest question: Brads vocal defenders/ supporters - why?
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Mar 7, 2023, 5:16 PM
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Only 4 players average more than 10 points a game - we lose half of them. Including the leading scorer. Godfrey, Middlebrooks, Wiggins, Beadle, and Dillon Hunter between them average less than 3 pts/game (per player). Even against a cream puff schedule for the ages we couldn’t find time to develop the bench. It should be a classic Brownell letdown season if he manages to keep his job. And you had to wonder what the incentive to stick around is for Hall. If he truly thinks he has a shot at the NBA, his third team All-ACC ranking is a clear sign that he isn’t getting there from Clemson.
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Orange Blooded [2669]
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Re: Honest question: Brads vocal defenders/ supporters - why?
Mar 7, 2023, 5:22 PM
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Wow.
Remember when you told me I was bashing our former players because I said that narcisse wasn't an acc caliber player, and Milton jiennings didn't live up to his 5* billing?
I heard the same crap for you before this season about how bad we were going to be. You were dead wrong, and you will be again. We only returned 2 double digit scorers last year too.
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Legend [16902]
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Re: Honest question: Brads vocal defenders/ supporters - why?
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Mar 7, 2023, 5:42 PM
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Did I say they were busts? JFC, you lack critical thinking skills. I’m clearly on record that I think the coach bares responsibility for player development. Something that you clearly don’t believe based on your bashing of his early players. I stated specifically that he didn’t find time for them. That is just a fact. Despite multiple blowout games and a ranking system that only matters up to 10 points, he under utilized those players. If that implies there is something wrong with them that is entirely on him. And he’s going to be relying on the heavily next year. Unless they’re jettisoned to the portal as most of his recruited players do.
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Orange Blooded [4035]
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Orange Blooded [4035]
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Re: Honest question: Brads vocal defenders/ supporters - why?
Mar 8, 2023, 8:56 AM
[ in reply to Re: Honest question: Brads vocal defenders/ supporters - why? ] |
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Thank you. Exactly the type of response I requested. I understand your argument. Where I really struggle is the 13 years part. Did he suddenly “get it”? I like this years team. The question is - is it the anomaly or it is a new baseline to improve from?
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110%er [6673]
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Because we look with foresight positively and
Mar 7, 2023, 5:13 PM
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celebrate every victory, which has been 22 this year. Those who look out with hindsight negatively which is stinking thinking (12 step terminalogy). Try living in the moment with a positive outlook.
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Legend [16902]
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Re: Because we look with foresight positively and
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Mar 7, 2023, 5:17 PM
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My positive outlook is that - at some point - Brownell will no longer be our basketball coach.
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Walk-On [129]
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Re: Honest question: Brads vocal defenders/ supporters - why?
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Mar 7, 2023, 8:54 PM
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Clemson won 22 games this year. They were 15-1 at home. One of the best seasons of my lifetime. Along with the 2018 team that went to the Sweet 16
This year, his top 3 guards all missed multiple games. I think the BC game they were all 3 out. We still won 22 games.
Due to injury, Our best player was a shell of himself for the first two months of the season. We still won 22 games.
The players love coach BB. They play hard for him. They always have.
Other coaches respect him.
Fans and students support the team.
How do we compare to our peers? USC, NC State, Georgia Tech, and FSU. 3 of those 4 have had multiple coaching changes during Brownells tenure. Yet we have a better program than all but FSU.
His players seem to be good people and represent Clemson well.
And he does win games. He puts a competitive team on the floor every single year. Any honest person can see that his teams are better now than they were in his first few years.
Do I want to make the tournament more? Yeah.
Do I want more consistency? Yeah.
Do I wish his teams played better in November and December? Yeah.
Do i think a coaching change would improve any of those? Doubtful.
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Orange Blooded [3615]
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Re: Honest question: Brads vocal defenders/ supporters - why?
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Mar 8, 2023, 1:19 AM
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I thought the Original Post was asking a question, but it turns out to be just another Inquisition.
So if I don’t support the coach, nor support the posters who support the coach, nor support the posters who give TU to the posters who support the coach, am I still at risk of being stretched on the rack if my answer is unsatisfactory?
Ahh, #&#&# it. I’ve always wanted to be taller anyway.
Fact is, I’ve always been honest about the fact that I’m not an alum. I’ve been a fan since I was a kid almost 50 years ago. I’ve always talked up Clemson over USC because, in my county, Gamecock grads and their families were super snobby, while it was Clemson grads who made improvements in people’s quality of life (through the viewpoint of a kid anyway.)
Besides, my best friend’s dad, and my cousin both went to Clemson.
So when I went to college at a school with no big-time sports program, I continued following Clemson and attending an occasional game.
IOW, my opinion is not as important as some others, because I do not have either a personal or financial stake in the basketball program. My support is emotional and intellectual, and I’ve always thought Clemson was more special than some of you deserve. But I don’t hire coaches, pay their buyouts nor boost the NIL funds to the extent some of you do.
But as an outsider, I am free to see and say the obvious: the playing field is rarely level in college sports. Clemson has natural advantages in some sports but disadvantages in others. For at least the last 50 years, Clemson athletic history is a series of on-again, off-again cheating scandals (possibly as habitual as any program in the nation) intended to overcome the disadvantages and consequent penalties that followed. Basketball-wise, Clemson is just now emerging from the shadow of the snobs on Tobacco Rd. who have probably cheated just as much historically but actually created the uneven landscape that compelled Clemson coaches to cheat just to compete.
We all decry the drop off in the current ACC. However, look at how only one of the 4 top seeds is a Tobacco Rd program. THIS 22-23 MBB SEASON IS AN ESSENTIAL GROWTH STEP FOR THE MODERN ACC. Now it needs to get even better.
As an outsider, I think BB continues to keep the program on an upward trajectory. That’s important.
It’s also squeaky clean. That’s important, though maybe not like it used to be.
I also think the duration of his stay here is irrelevant if he is improving the program. Yes, he possibly should have been terminated somewhere between seasons 4-7. But you can’t terminate him after season 13 when it was such a landmark season, simply because it’s conceivable that it could have been even better. You’ll get a terrible reputation as a fan base, and it’s not as though some people don’t mock you already.
3 years ago I suggested that BB would be able to recruit more evenly with the other programs in the ACC if he could survive long enough to outlast the legendary coaches in the league. I was mocked for that, but it’s coming to pass.
Mike Brey, Coach K and Roy Williams are now gone, and Boeheim is a shell of himself. Hamilton (in seniority and resume) and Bennett (resume) are now the only coaches who carry the same gravity as Brownell with recruits, media and the coaching profession. Like it or not, he is considered to be a successful coach, and it is STUPID to undermine him now that the program is on the precipice of success.
(I do think Scheyer will be a great coach, but right now recruits are influenced more by the institution than his coaching achievements.)
Those of you who have a major investment in the program have a right to be heard. But please don’t turn Clemson into a dysfunctional school like Auburn. And, as I’ve always said, save the “Fire the Coach!” talk until the season is over. The players deserve your unquestioned support until then.
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Orange Blooded [4035]
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Re: Honest question: Brads vocal defenders/ supporters - why?
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Mar 8, 2023, 9:13 AM
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Thank you. Your opinion holds value like everyone else’s.
I also agree that he should have been let go years ago.
Are we really on an upward trajectory or are we the simply anomaly that happens every few years.
I don’t dislike Brad, I simply want Clemson to be competitive (and not simply in a horrid ACC year). The ACC has dropped down well below multiple conferences - it has been for years - but hidden by the Duke, unc, and now uva top end. We lost the middle this year - Louisville, fsu, nd, Syracuse, - and has been a while since wake, gt, ncstate, bc has challenged.
I do disagree with people who think just because we have not done much thru the years - that we cannot be very good or even great. (I was there 77-81- and we played exciting ball). Larry Nance is still a friend. The ACC was king. We were exciting.
Today, the losses and lack of excitement has drained the fan base and students.
Maybe I want a new coach simply to bring “hope” back to the school. I know we could drop off, but hope is a wonderful thing.
Anyway, thanks for your comments. Was exactly what I was seeking.
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CU Guru [1778]
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Re: Honest question: Brads vocal defenders/ supporters - why?
Mar 8, 2023, 3:05 AM
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The majority are either too young to remember Clemson basketball before Brownell or too old to differentiate modern and legacy Clemson basketball.
The university as a whole is on a different level the last 15 years. We had a flawed, old coach on the front end of that that took advantage of it and showed the start of what was possible. There’s a group that isn’t old enough to remember beyond Brownell.
Conversely, there’s a group that still compares modern Clemson basketball to the fruit basket/blacknwhite days before this was a top 20 university with the #1 “brand” in the country.
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CU Guru [1746]
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Here's my take....Brad hasn't made it easy
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Mar 8, 2023, 3:39 PM
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for a decision to be made one way or the other. He does just enough to keep our heads above water but the fun times aren't plentiful. I think our AD (past and present) know that Clemson basketball isn't anything special. People dont like up to come here to walk the floor of Littlejohn...coaches or players. That factors in the decision making. Also, not enough fans actually care to make that decision easier one way or the other.
At the end of the day, the AD has ask himself what he wants out of the program and then go from there. If its more, then make a plan and move on. If not, give him an extension.
If I was in charge, its simple. If we do not make this years tournament I am probably moving on. Its been 13 years and while we havent stunk and are most of the time in it, we havent dont anything great. Adding to that decision, our attendance and fan interest is pretty 'blah'. There just isnt much excitement for the program and its been that way for awhile under Brownell....maybe the entire time he's been here.
Im sure the talking heads would bash the decision, but they don't want more the program. they just defend their own.
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