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National Champion [7347]
TigerPulse: 100%
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So, what is a "good run?" And when does it become a great one?
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Jan 20, 2025, 5:52 AM
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Because we can all agree Brownell has had himself a *great* and lucrative run at Clemson as far as D1 head coaching gigs go.
Meanwhile, and during Brownell's watch, coach Swinney (who also has had a *great* and lucrative run as far as D1 head coaching gigs go) has taken what he was handed and turned it into a perennial league powerhouse and two-time national title winner. Coach Noonan (ditto) has done same for the soccer program.
So, when does Brownell's great run translate into the same thing for the players and fans?
Or will it always be an Apollo 13 thing -- a string of "successful failures?"
"We made the E8 last year and this year won the ACC but lost in the second round of the tourney ... good run!"
"Won the ACC this year (FINALLY!) but hey the the kids were just too tired to make much of a showing in the tourney ... good run, though!"
It never ends.
And that's why right or wrong, fair or unfair, Brownell will remain behind the 8-ball until he's hanging a national title banner from the rafters in Littlejohn, like Swinney and Noonan have done over at Death Valley and Riggs Field.
Thanks for reading this far.
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Rival Killer [2913]
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It has to include a conference championship***
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Jan 20, 2025, 6:01 AM
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National Champion [7347]
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That'd be a good start.
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Jan 20, 2025, 6:03 AM
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All-In [10715]
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Re: So, what is a "good run?" And when does it become a great one?
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Jan 20, 2025, 7:23 AM
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It’s all about expectations. There are none for Clemson Basketball. If there were Brownell would have been gone a long time ago.
I wouldn’t call last season a successful failure but I agree with what you are saying - at some point he has to win championships. At least you would think so. It seems like he already has a lifetime contract. It’s the most bizarre thing. If he were to win an ACC championship he probably would get a lifetime contract, but Dabo is firing people after a year of winning the ACC.
Expectations are not the same in the admin or with the fans, so Clemson basketball continues to accomplish very little.
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National Champion [7347]
TigerPulse: 100%
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So less than optimal is good enough
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Jan 20, 2025, 7:35 AM
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for basketball but not football.
Maybe this year is *the year basketball turns the corner, and "less than optimal" becomes what it means.
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All-In [10715]
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Re: So less than optimal is good enough
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Jan 20, 2025, 7:42 AM
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I’ve given up hope of Clemson basketball ever turning the corner. Not that my hope means anything at all. Clemson has to actually care. I thought for a minute Neff actually cared about making it a successful program but that was short lived.
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Oculus Spirit [42775]
TigerPulse: 100%
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Re: So, what is a "good run?" And when does it become a great one?
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Jan 20, 2025, 7:35 AM
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We are not a basketball school and the school does not provide as much support for basketball as it does for football so we cannot justify high expectations for basketball. We should all know by now there is a direct correlation between a coach’s salary and the expectations for success for his team.
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National Champion [7347]
TigerPulse: 100%
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So Brownell's $3.5M draw this year isn't enough for anyone to expect
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Jan 20, 2025, 7:41 AM
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anything of him this year?
Sign me up for that gig.
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Oculus Spirit [42775]
TigerPulse: 100%
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Re: So Brownell's $3.5M draw this year isn't enough for anyone to expect
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Jan 20, 2025, 8:14 AM
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Please check your meter.
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National Champion [7347]
TigerPulse: 100%
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?
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Jan 20, 2025, 9:45 AM
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Tiger Spirit [9377]
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Re: ?
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Jan 20, 2025, 9:52 AM
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110%er [3623]
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Re: So, what is a "good run?" And when does it become a great one?
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Jan 20, 2025, 7:55 AM
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I've been watching Clemson basketball since the mid 80s -- less than some, more than most.
I do NOT buy the tired narrative that "Clemson doesn't care about basketball" or "Clemson doesn't support basketball." This has no basis in reality.
When Horace Grant, Elden Campbell, Dale Davis et al. were playing, we packed Littlejohn...and it was not a fun place for opponents. We cared. We supported, and the Administration did too (Ok, the Shyatt years were...awful).
Fans come when there is a good product. They don't when there isn't. It's not complicated -- never has been.
By and large we've watched Brownell be slightly-above-average for 15 years, with an occasional run, here and there. I appears that -- perhaps -- he is finally figuring it out. I believe this is our deepest team in years -- probably decades. Who knows?
But we still have never won the ACC Tournament, and have barely ever won the regular season.
Until Brownell brings home a meaningful championship, he has earned skepticism from the fans. It's his job to un-earn it.
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All-In [10715]
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Re: So, what is a "good run?" And when does it become a great one?
Jan 20, 2025, 11:10 AM
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I’m not sure why you don’t buy that narrative. What other explanation is there then?
You care, I’m not discounting that. I care. BUT Clemson as a whole does not care nor do the majority of Clemson fans. If so then there wouldn’t be such a disparity between what the football team has accomplished vs the basketball team. There would be much more pressure and demand to win. Expectations are not the same.
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Clemson Sports Icon [54104]
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I think it's due to a few things.
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Jan 20, 2025, 1:14 PM
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First, we are a "football school" and that has been a big source of pride for the school, alumni, and fans for over a hundred years.
Our identity as a football school has kept us at times from devoting more to other sports, such as basketball. This has been due at times to limited funds, which we felt had to go to football, while at other times it has been due to us not wanting to compete at a high level in basketball. When the Dukes, UNCs, and most other ACC schools were devoting sizable resources to their basketball programs decades ago, we weren't. You still see that in recent years, as our spending on basketball has remained near the bottom of the conference.
We also have the disadvantage of playing in what is historically the strongest basketball conference. That made it very hard to get over the hump as a basketball program. On the flip side, it made it easier for us to rise to prominence in football, as we have been one of few ACC teams to prioritize football like we do.
I disagree about expectations for our basketball program though. There is an expectation from our administration and fans to win. Perhaps the expectation hasn't been to make deep NCAA Tournament runs with regularity, but it has certainly been to win. Brad has won enough to keep his job, and I think that is because the administration understands how hard the job is.
To his credit, Neff has devoted more resources to our basketball program than prior ADs. These investments have been crucial, as they allowed for better facilities and a higher caliber of assistant coaches. Not surprisingly, we have seen our program improve its recruiting and its winning in the years since. With that, expectations will rise - as they should.
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Oculus Spirit [42775]
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Re: I think it's due to a few things.
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Jan 20, 2025, 3:16 PM
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Looks like I’m pretty much nailed it. 😂😂😂
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National Champion [7347]
TigerPulse: 100%
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And in far fewer words.
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Jan 21, 2025, 3:49 PM
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Well done.
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110%er [3623]
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It's not complicated
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Jan 20, 2025, 1:54 PM
[ in reply to Re: So, what is a "good run?" And when does it become a great one? ] |
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I don't buy the narrative because I've seen the opposite. During the late 80s/early 90s, and briefly during OP's tenure, the product was good and Littlejohn was packed. I remember "sleeping" outside all night, waiting for tickets to the Duke game in 1990. One of our few regular season championships.
A few of Purnell's teams were fun, and filled the house (and were woeful in the tournament).
Brownell's apologists on this site have said for years that "Clemson doesn't support basketball". The truth is: Clemson Nation won't support mediocre basketball. Nor should we.
I think the expectations are that we win. Unfortunately, there has been too little of that over the years.
But don't blame the fans for that.
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Clemson Sports Icon [54104]
TigerPulse: 79%
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Weve had some very good teams under Brownell that have not been supported
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Jan 23, 2025, 12:59 AM
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nearly as well as they could have been.
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National Champion [7347]
TigerPulse: 100%
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Could be that all the *very average/disappointing*
Jan 23, 2025, 7:10 AM
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Brownell teams have placed downward pressure on fan support for the few *very good* ones.
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National Champion [7347]
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Orange Phenom [14967]
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Honestly, I (God willing) have about half my life
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Jan 20, 2025, 8:20 AM
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left to live and I'm not expecting to ever see a national title banner hung in LJ. I'd like to see an ACCCG banner though, and I think we can do that.
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Orange Phenom [14286]
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Re: So, what is a "good run?" And when does it become a great one?
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Jan 20, 2025, 8:33 AM
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Do you consider Dave Clawson a successful coach at WF or Narduzzi a successful coach at Pitt? I would say both have been successful in the situation they are/were in but their records would not be acceptable for a Clemson football coach. Context matters. For example, we are having a great season and just beat a top conference team on the road but instead of celebrating the big win, our LF fans start a thread to diminish our HC. A coach who is having recruiting success since we modernized our facilities and stepped up support for assistants. A HC who has found a way to utilize the portal to help our program.
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Valley Legend [12211]
TigerPulse: 64%
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Re: So, what is a "good run?" And when does it become a great one?
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Jan 20, 2025, 8:42 AM
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Every fan would love for the Tigers to win an ACC Championship and it could happen but the reality is as long as Duke gets the 5* guys, it will be an awesome task. It is much harder to win a basketball championship than any other but I never thought I would live long enough to see us win in Chapel Hill and we did.
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National Champion [7347]
TigerPulse: 100%
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"It is much harder to win a basketball championship than any other ..."
Jan 20, 2025, 12:05 PM
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All but about 2 active D1 head football coaches would disagree with this.
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Clemson Sports Icon [54104]
TigerPulse: 79%
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It's simple math. More games and more teams = harder to win in basketball.***
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Jan 20, 2025, 1:16 PM
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National Champion [7347]
TigerPulse: 100%
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Also simple math: 0 ACC titles in 71 years.
Jan 20, 2025, 1:42 PM
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Data viz would show a pretty flat trend there.
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Dynasty Maker [3495]
TigerPulse: 92%
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Oculus Spirit [42775]
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Paw Warrior [5065]
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National Champion [7347]
TigerPulse: 100%
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That's a fair assessment.
Jan 20, 2025, 11:29 AM
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And I believe is also true of football in the NIL/portal era -- it's a lot harder to win now than it was before June 21, 2021.
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Orange Phenom [14286]
TigerPulse: 99%
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Re: That's a fair assessment.
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Jan 20, 2025, 2:17 PM
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And I believe is also true of football in the NIL/portal era -- it's a lot harder to win now than it was before June 21, 2021.
Especially when a HC chooses not to use the portal
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110%er [4000]
TigerPulse: 85%
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Re: So, what is a "good run?" And when does it become a great one?
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Jan 20, 2025, 9:20 AM
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If we make the tourney this year, this will be the most successful 8 year "run" in clemson basketball history, and it is not really close. Brownell deserves a ton of credit. It's not just a good season "here and there", we have been consistently solid with a few great teams in there over the last 8 years.
Our success is CURRENT. We had an elite 8 run last year, this year is shaping up to be awesome, we have some good young players in the program, our recruiting has been better than ever these past few years, and program appears to be continuing to ascend. Despite all of this, most of our vocal "fans" want to continue to b!tch and cry because they hate brownell. What a bunch of pathetic losers.
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National Champion [7347]
TigerPulse: 100%
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That's a great PR pitch for the program.
Jan 20, 2025, 11:26 AM
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And none of it is wrong/false.
But it's also a big ask. Celebrating eight long years of nothing much* after 44 YEARS of nothing much* is a stretch, kinda like the football program failing to make the playoffs for only four years is a stretch for a lot of people.
It's got nothing to do with whether someone likes/dislikes Brownell. I don't know enough about basketball coaching to criticize him. In the end, all I can do is look at the results for guidance on whether he's good, great, or just average. And according to his overall record, he's merely good.
"Great" is still hidden from view if it's there at all.
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110%er [4000]
TigerPulse: 85%
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Re: That's a great PR pitch for the program.
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Jan 20, 2025, 2:08 PM
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There were something like 10 teams that had been to an elite 8 and sweet 16 in the last 7 years. There are a lot of teams that are mediocre per your standards.
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National Champion [7347]
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Right. It's why they're called "mediocre."
Jan 20, 2025, 2:29 PM
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Mediocre being "of moderate or low-quality, value, ability, or performance."
So-so. Also-ran. Performance level "meh."
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Orange Phenom [14462]
TigerPulse: 100%
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Win the ACC Tournament
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Jan 20, 2025, 9:51 AM
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That's a great run, a never done before in the history of Clemson basketball level great run
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National Champion [7347]
TigerPulse: 100%
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Definitely would be a good start.
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Jan 20, 2025, 11:27 AM
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CU Medallion [19128]
TigerPulse: 95%
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I can see why you have to change handles so often***
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Jan 20, 2025, 2:59 PM
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National Champion [7347]
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I see you're down to a 91.
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Jan 20, 2025, 3:41 PM
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Speaking of a good run ...
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CU Medallion [19128]
TigerPulse: 95%
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I was at 91 when you joined***
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Jan 21, 2025, 4:07 PM
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Heisman Winner [83848]
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Just wow....
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Jan 23, 2025, 12:45 AM
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What a ####### tool, 😂 CM Shack®
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National Champion [7347]
TigerPulse: 100%
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I thought you said I'd been here a while.
Jan 23, 2025, 1:53 PM
[ in reply to I was at 91 when you joined*** ] |
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Now you agree that I've been here since I got here.
Pick a line and stick with it, please.
And keep working on that pulse. I believe that with some small changes, and possibly a rosier outlook and attitude, could achieve a more credible presence in here.
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Orange Phenom [14286]
TigerPulse: 99%
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Re: So, what is a "good run?" And when does it become a great one?
Jan 20, 2025, 4:20 PM
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Y’all ever wonder why some schools can be good at a particular sport but are bad in a different sport? How can Duke, UnC and Kansas be great at basketball but not so much in football?
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National Champion [7347]
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Because they're basketball schools?
Jan 21, 2025, 3:50 PM
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(Was that a rhetorical question?)
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Commissioner [1259]
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Re: So, what is a "good run?" And when does it become a great one?
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Jan 20, 2025, 4:24 PM
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Unfortunately we have become a football school and it feels as if anything positive in basketball is a bonus.
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National Champion [7347]
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Doesn't seem very unfortunate.
Jan 21, 2025, 3:51 PM
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Clemson's won three national titles in football and zero in basketball.
That feels like the opposite of unfortunate.
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Commissioner [1270]
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Re: So, what is a "good run?" And when does it become a great one?
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Jan 21, 2025, 7:05 PM
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There are roughly 370 Men's Division 1 basketball programs.
37 schools have won the NCAA Tournament in its 86 years of existence.
Does seem all that easy.
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Game Changer [1997]
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A lot of the disappointment comes from Clemson being one of the 7 ACC
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Jan 21, 2025, 7:53 PM
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charter schools in 1953, and the only one not to have won an ACC basketball tournament championship. That includes Maryland and South Carolina which have been long gone from the ACC. In addition, Florida State, Georgia Tech, Miami, and Virginia Tech have also won it. That, of course, is not entirely on CBB, but he has been the head coach longer than anyone else at Clemson.
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Orange Elite [5394]
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Re: So, what is a "good run?" And when does it become a great one?
Jan 23, 2025, 6:59 AM
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You’re joking right? Last season saved his Job. It finally appears he can put up back to back season and not fall back to mediocre/NIT. No his time at Clemson has not been “Great”. I’d consider his run with the addition of these two season to be “Okay” take these two seasons away and it’s “poor”.
Where the transfer portal era has not been good to Dabo it’s been very good to Brownell.
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Clemson Icon [24727]
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If Clemson usually has a good team we shouldn't fire the coach.
Jan 23, 2025, 10:13 AM
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We should fire coaches if we usually have a bad team or rarely have a good team.
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National Champion [8018]
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how many coaches in any sport have done what Dabo did? and what is the %
Jan 23, 2025, 10:19 AM
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of coaches that have done it as well?
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National Champion [7347]
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Zero percent.
Jan 23, 2025, 1:55 PM
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Which corresponds with the percentage of seasons Brownell has delivered at least an ACC title.
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Rival Killer [3002]
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Re: Zero percent.
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Jan 23, 2025, 2:09 PM
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Or the number of football Natty's the chickens have won.
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Rival Killer [2899]
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Rival Killer [2899]
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Brownell is halfway to removing the two biggest monkeys from Clemson BB's back
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Jan 23, 2025, 1:59 PM
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The first was the winless streak in Chapel Hill - took care of that back in early 2020 before Covid was a thing (and just before we got Burrow'ed in NOLA).
The second is an ACC Tournament Championship.
Accomplish both of those and he deserves a statue.
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National Champion [7347]
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He may deserve an extension for doing those things.
Jan 24, 2025, 8:08 AM
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But a statue might be a stretch.
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All-TigerNet [5800]
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Re: So, what is a "good run?" And when does it become a great one?
Jan 24, 2025, 8:19 AM
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Won the ACC? When, you high?
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Dynasty Maker [3528]
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The Lunatic Fringe never stops
Jan 24, 2025, 8:36 AM
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A bunch of Debbie Downers on this thread. Clemson basketball is winning and the hate flows like beer and bourbon at a bloated tailgate. The next basketball loss will bring out the string of FIRE BROWNELL posts. You Bozos can't see past your red noses that you have one of the best coaches in college basketball. He has built a program both ways -- he develops players and he works the portal. Don't hate. Appreciate. 16-4 overall and 8-1 in the ACC and there are empty seats in Littlejohn. Pathetic. But those seats will be full when Duke and North Carolina come to town because you people will be pulling your blue jerseys out of the closet and running to Littlejohn. If you hate Clemson basketball, go sniff football jocks and swoon over every word uttered by Dabo. Clemson "fans" will never stop comparing football to basketball. Just check the history. BroWnell has done a great job.
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National Champion [7347]
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Take it easy.
Jan 24, 2025, 11:50 AM
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One of the analysts said Brownell's one of the best in the biz during the Cuse game the other night.
I can see the point.
We'll see if Brownell's approach is finally paying off, and Clemson basketball is undergoing a fundamental uplift the way the football program experienced before going on its run of CFP/natty appearances and wins.
The point of the OP was to ask what constitutes a great run.
Some said an ACC title this season would qualify.
I agree.
And we'll see.
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