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Starter [368]
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My Problem with Brownell is not his coaching ability. But
Mar 19, 2015, 8:53 AM
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rather his lack of recruiting. There's a reason our FB program is on the rise, its because we're recruiting at a really high level. Look at Basketball signees and look at the schools we beat out for them. Winthrop? UNC Asheville, Georgia State. All descent on their level, but you're NOT going to win in the ACC with that calibre of player! Unless Brownell ups his game recruiting wise, he's got to go. He CAN Coach, I think he's good, but you cant win the derby riding a Jack@$$. You NEED PLAYERS! Brownell is the Hatfield of Clemson Basketball, good coach, poor recruiter.
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CU Medallion [67703]
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Re: My Problem with Brownell is not his coaching ability. But
Mar 19, 2015, 8:59 AM
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Hatfield had a great tradition he failed to draw on. Wth does Brownell have. You post is so wrong.
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All-In [30593]
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my problem is lack of wins***
Mar 19, 2015, 9:00 AM
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Legend [16629]
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^^^***
Mar 19, 2015, 9:00 AM
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Heisman Winner [108390]
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Heisman Winner [111412]
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Re: my problem is lack of wins***
Mar 19, 2015, 12:45 PM
[ in reply to my problem is lack of wins*** ] |
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do you think it has anything to do with the OP, or are darker forces at work here?
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Legend [19352]
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Re: my problem is lack of wins***
Mar 19, 2015, 12:47 PM
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Darker Forces at work...
That sounds racist
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Heisman Winner [111412]
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Re: my problem is lack of wins***
Mar 19, 2015, 12:48 PM
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it may be, but I was more delving into the super natural.
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Orange Blooded [3908]
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Hatfield was not a great coach either.
Mar 19, 2015, 9:01 AM
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He was an OK coach, horrific recruiter.
As noted by others the difference in recruiting the 2 things at Clemson are worlds apart.
Poor comparison.
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Hall of Famer [22965]
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good post....I was going to point out the same.....but
Mar 19, 2015, 10:05 AM
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I suspected it would have been wasted on anyone who thinks Ken Hatfield was a "good" coach too.
And you are 100% correct. Trying to draw correlations between Clemson football and Clemson basketball is tenuous at best.
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Starter [368]
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Re: Screw you! did you know the man? did you play at CU?
Mar 19, 2015, 10:14 AM
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If not, you don't know what really went on! Hatfield was a very good coach, but recruiter? no! Of course it's hard to recruit when your fanbase is bad mouthing you and telling recruits not to come, and YES, that happened! Why should it be any different to recruit basketball? Clemson wasn't always a National product football wise. They built themselves into one. Belief that it cant be done is why we can't sell recruits to come here. Never said Brownell couldn't coach, in fact said the opposite. IF he and Coach K switch players, WE are in the NCAA tourney and coach K is watching on tv, but you have to Recruit HIGH CALIBRE PLAYERS! Don't tell me it can't be done if the right guy is here!
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Hall of Famer [22965]
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You really don't have a clue what you're talking about, do
Mar 19, 2015, 10:21 AM
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you?
and just FYI....Clemson most assuredly was known nationally in football LOOOOONG before Coach Ford or Ken Hatfield showed up.
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Starter [368]
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Re: Being "Known" and being a National Product, not the same
Mar 19, 2015, 10:24 AM
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and I notice you didn't answer the question. did you play in college, or even go? My knowledge is first hand, not rumor, speculation, and internet chatter! you're right about one thing though, One of us in this conversation doesn't have a clue, however you might want to reevaluate what exactly qualifies you as having one.
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Hall of Famer [22965]
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lmao......
Mar 19, 2015, 10:32 AM
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so you played for Hatfield??
and yes....I attended Clemson, got a couple of degrees from there, went to several other universities as well. Went to my first Clemson football game in 1954, my first Clemson basketball game in 1957. No, I didn't play sports in college--I made up for being short and fairly slight by being slow as well.
But I think I have a good grasp on Clemson football history. And Clemson basketball history. Having been in attendence for much of it since the '50's
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Starter [368]
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Re: Played for Hatfield and West, and you want to talk
Mar 19, 2015, 11:24 AM
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about somebody almost killing a program, WEST was the worst coach EVER and nobody gives him half the grief they give Hatfield. BTW, having a "grasp" of Clemson football is still an outsider's perspective. I lived it, and can tell you first hand what went on, so don't try and lecture me about who could and couldn't do what. I KNOW who could and couldn't do it, I was there. You can watch a bunch of stuff and read about pregnancy too, but that doesn't mean you know as much about being pregnant as a woman who's given birth. Hatfield WAS a GOOD coach, but because he couldn't sign the same calibre of guys as FSU, etc. he was shown the door. We should hold our basketball program to the same standard we do our football program. Baseball too! Leggett is the next one that needs to go, even before Brownell. Why shouldn't we demand excellence of our coaches? To say we can't expect the same is a Loser's mentality.
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Hall of Famer [22965]
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then I would say the same thing about you....only not as
Mar 19, 2015, 12:43 PM
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profanely......you say that I can't recognize good football coaching after watching it for 60 years, then I won't argue with you....but only because you say you played college football....even though you offer no proof of your bonafides, I'll take you at your word......of course, I could say I went to Oxford too, but that doesn't make me a Rhodes Scholar.........however, along your same line of thinking, I don't think you have anything valid to say about college basketball, particularly Clemson basketball, since you never played or coached at the Div 1 level and never lived it. So your opinion of Coach Brownell's coaching or recruiting abilities is about as worthless as your ability to express yourself in a calm and analytical fashion
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Legend [19352]
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Starter [368]
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Re: No I didn't its in another post below
Mar 19, 2015, 11:11 AM
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might want to read, or get someone to read it to you before you comment on things.
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Legend [19352]
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Re: No I didn't its in another post below
Mar 19, 2015, 12:44 PM
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I can read just fine you are the moron acting as if none of our guys had decent offers.
Sorry facts dont back up your bull ####.
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Orange Blooded [3820]
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Look man, we all applaud the effort you're trying to make
Mar 19, 2015, 10:33 AM
[ in reply to Re: Screw you! did you know the man? did you play at CU? ] |
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here, but Ken Hatfield was not a good football coach. He was ok. He won with Danny's players. Most coaches around the country could have won with those guys. Once the well started running dry, the wins became less and less.
Hatfield did what he was hired to do. Clean up the image of the program. But a good coach, not even close. All you need to know about Hatfield is he let Virginia beat him in '90. First time ever. And it's not like that UVA team were world beaters. They only finished 9-4. He also lost to Tech that year by 2 points, essentially letting Tech claim a share of the national championship. That one's a little more excusable. I tell you what ain't though:
A tie against UVA in '91.
An embarrassment to a California team in the '91 bowl game.
1992 as a whole.
1993 pretty much as a hole.
Hatfield year by year. 1990 - 10-2 1991 - 9-2-1 1992 - 5-6 1993 9-3. You say, Oh that's pretty good right? Not when you count the fact that Florida State whipped us 57-0. UNC also shut us out, and the icing on the cake? We lost to a PITIFUL 2-9 Wake Forest team at home 20-16. So no, Ken Hatfield was NOT a good coach.
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Starter [368]
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Re: you're proving my point for me! I said, he couldn't
Mar 19, 2015, 11:13 AM
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recruit, hence the well ran dry as you put it. He could coach however, as we went 8-3 the year he got canned and had hardly any "real players" on that team.
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Legend [19352]
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Re: My Problem with Brownell is not his coaching ability. But
Mar 19, 2015, 9:09 AM
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"Look at Basketball signees and look at the schools we beat out for them. Winthrop? UNC Asheville, Georgia State."
Umm the two guys that are coming in both had strong offers from other big programs.
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Orange Blooded [2519]
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I wish we could outrecruit Winthrop***
Mar 19, 2015, 10:16 AM
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Legend [19352]
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Re: I wish we could outrecruit Winthrop***
Mar 19, 2015, 10:34 AM
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Our incoming class has offers from K State NC State Oklahoma St Alabama among others.
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CU Medallion [58376]
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We may be getting there, but it may be too little, too
Mar 19, 2015, 11:09 AM
[ in reply to Re: My Problem with Brownell is not his coaching ability. But ] |
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late for Brownell. We need more than 2 or 3 guys that can compete and win at this level, and so far we have not had it under Brownell with his recruits.
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CU Guru [1858]
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It's kind of like a snowball effect
Mar 19, 2015, 9:11 AM
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One great recruit helps lands another, then another. Improved facilities, exciting atmosphere helps get those great recruits BUT there has got to be someone that can sell that FIRST great recruit on Clemson and it all can begin to fall into place. Charisma is a gift that not everybody is blessed with however all great leaders have charisma. Is CBB charismatic, I don't know but if we are to build something great we need someone to sell his dream to his recruits and watch his program soar. Dabo is a great example of this.....sold CJ on his dream and now look where we are now......just a random thought on a Thursday morning.
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Orange Blooded [3573]
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Was Dabo a great recruiter from 03-06?
Mar 19, 2015, 9:44 AM
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Before we broke ground on the WEZ, the highest rated recruit that Dabo had brought in as recruiting coordinator was Cory Lambert (who didn't qualify that year). In 04 we signed 19...that's right NINETEEN 2 star players out of 27 total. In 05, after breaking ground on the WEZ we get James Davis. In 06 when we move in the wave really started. He now had the proof AND the vision, plus the administrative support.
The football program was stale and needed a shot in the arm in the form of facilities and administrative support. The results have been proven.
The basketball program is stale and needs a shot in the arm in the form of facilities and administrative support. The results are yet to be determined.
The baseball program and stale and needs a shot in the arm in the form of facilities and administrative support, and new leadership....and it can't get much worse.
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Starter [368]
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Re: Not a fair comparison as Dabo was NOT HC in 2003.
Mar 19, 2015, 9:49 AM
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Being on staff and being the HC is NOT the same. Brownell CAN NOT recruit period! Coach X's and O's? Absolutely, but if you play Dook with a JV team, you're in for a long night no matter how good of a coach you are!
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Orange Blooded [3573]
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We don't know what BB can do when given the resources
Mar 19, 2015, 9:54 AM
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Dabo's energy couldn't get superstars to come to Clemson when we were 20 years behind the times against the programs we wanted to compete with.
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All-In [30448]
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What, exactly do you expect him to tell a recruit to get him
Mar 19, 2015, 9:23 AM
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excited about Clemson basketball?
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All-In [30593]
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we have been to 3 straight NCAAT's....
Mar 19, 2015, 9:30 AM
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wait
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Legend [17248]
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Starter [368]
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Re: That's his JOB! THAT is what Recruiting IS! And my
Mar 19, 2015, 9:35 AM
[ in reply to What, exactly do you expect him to tell a recruit to get him ] |
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Comparison is NOT a poor won. I was there during the Hatfield years and he was NOT a bad coach. In fact it's a testiment to him in that we won as many games as we did considering some of the recruits we had playing. Brownell's two guys coming in have offers, but to how many "Basketball" schools? Hudson really has 1, Xavier, and Legend has WVa, that is usually okay in BB. When is the last time we got a REAL ACC calibre player? Not gonna beat out UNC and Duke for players, but NC State, Wake, Virginia, Louiville? We have got to recruit against THIS type of program if we want to step up our game! Hate if you want, but players make the team not coaches. If Coach K had our present team, he'd be watching tv at home this weekend too!
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Orange Blooded [3573]
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Thats a mistake
Mar 19, 2015, 9:52 AM
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we don't have to recruit against UNC, Duke, Louisville, Syracuse etc because we are going to lose recruits to them every time. They are looking at McDonalds All Americans. If you are a McD AA with no tie to Clemson are you really going to give Clemson serious consideration if you also get recruited by Duke? Hell no. And on the flip side, if you are a 5 star football player and get recruited by Clemson or Duke, are you really going to consider Duke? Hell no.
But what we can do is build a program that doesn't require 5 AAs to sustain it. Let the big boys fight for the one and dones, Clemson can build program consistency first. Then we take advantage of it when they miss out on a recruiting class. Those teams will have to hit on every recruit or they will dip.
And to make matters worse for teams like Clemson (or FSU, Miami VT) if you are a marginal player, you have a better chance of going to the NCAAs with teams like Winthrop, Northern Iowa etc than the middle of the road teams in the ACC. Basketball with the automatic bids and larger tournament/exposure is the exact opposite of football. The schools in the mid-majors have an advantage over the middle teams of the power-5s.
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Starter [368]
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Re: Tell that to Swinney! He has gone into Florida and
Mar 19, 2015, 10:05 AM
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Georgia and gotten the BEST they have and out recruited ALL the big boys to do it! Spiller, Watkins, Watson, McCloud, Cain, etc. Spiller was an All-American with NO ties to Clemson, and we stole him from right in Florida's back yard! Same with Watson and UGa. Great Recruiters make players want to come play for them. We don't have to have a Dean Smith type coach, just a great Recruiter!
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Orange Blooded [3573]
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Football and basketball aren't on the same level here
Mar 19, 2015, 10:51 AM
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and to compare the 2 and have the same expectations is crazy.
But not even the best salesperson is the world can sell a product that built on crap parts. And to this point, the administration (and fan) support of basketball is the equivalent of putting plastic parts in a car motor. To continue with the car analogy, we need to build a solid reliable midsize. Grow the reputation and then add the components to compete with the luxury car builders.
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CU Medallion [67703]
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CU Guru [1746]
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CU Guru [1746]
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I forgot to add....
Mar 19, 2015, 10:08 AM
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the majority of kids play for the coach and not the school. Then they fall for the school afterwards.
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Starter [368]
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Re:Then again the guy's not doing his job! What have our
Mar 19, 2015, 11:17 AM
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guys like D Watson and McCloud, Cain, Spiller etc said for years? We have a great relationship with the coaches, but we committed to CLEMSON NOT a COACH! He needs to sell the school, get some recruits or go back to Little league Basketball at Wilmington!
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Hall of Famer [22965]
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Orange Blooded [2217]
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Orange Blooded [3456]
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You can't compete with the big guys in recruiting
Mar 19, 2015, 10:34 AM
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when you have third world facilities. Hopefully the renovations help us turn the corner.
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