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Hall of Famer [21614]
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I'm significantly more worried about WR coaching than I am
Nov 29, 2022, 12:36 PM
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the coaches keeping DJ in instead of Cade.
The coaches have already demonstrated they are willing to pull DJ for the rest of a game.
Cade hasn't shown ANYTHING near what Deshaun and Trevor showed us their freshman years.
Our WR's are very much not good. Their routes are bad, their hands are inconsistent, their ability to go get the ball is poor, their mistakes are prevalent.
People need to control themselves and stop falling victim to false dichotomy. Is DJ a playoff quality QB? NO, obviously not. But apparently neither is Cade. At least not yet. But DJ's struggles are multiplied by a total lack of production/consistency from WR's. Elite WR's helped Trevor and Deshaun look even better (they were already awesome).
So it's not simply DJ is to blame OR Streeter OR Dabo OR WR's OR the OL. It's a combination, but I think the BIGGEST deficiency is the WR's. And I think COACHING has a lot to do with it. Talent isn't as bad as execution.
RB coaching actually looks good at this point. OL coaching looks good. Playcalls have been bad at times, but not terrible overall. QB coaching.... I can't imagine being too bad. Streeter coached Trevor well IMO. We know Dabo is an elite coach. People cry about him being "stubborn" but his personality is why Clemson has been in rarified air for the last 10 years.
Part of an assessment of a program is the fan culture. Usually fan culture is toxic but some are worse than others. In my opinion, Clemson has had a superior than average fan culture for the majority of my lifetime (back into the 80's) but lately a large number of Clemson people have become detached from a reasonable perspective. Quite simply, you guys need to learn to be ok with not making the playoffs every year. It's not reasonable to throw a fit every time we are not super-elite.
There is a difference with being disappointed and being entitled. How any Clemson fan who survived the 90's and 00's can label what we see today as "unacceptable" is INSANE. How anyone could say we are declining BECAUSE of Dabo is INSANE. Where were we before Dabo? How does anyone need to hear this? Our success, that spoiled some of you, is BECAUSE of DABO. It is an embarrassing level of entitlement for any Clemson fan to start crying that Dabo is a problem for Clemson football. And reasonable Clemson fans need to call these nutjobs out and make it clear that they are a minority.
Just try and relax, and realize a 12-2 season (which is possible) is one of the best Clemson has ever had in over 100 years.
We play more games now but do you realize how many times Clemson has finished BETTER THAN .750 win% in a season before Dabo? 18 times. In 100 years.
Dabo has done that 11 times in a row (counting our current record as it is now) and only missed that mark 2 seasons... his first two years.
Danny Ford did it 6 out of 11 years.
Have some perspective.
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Hall of Famer [21614]
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Rock Defender [53]
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Thank you
Nov 29, 2022, 12:43 PM
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All-In [48334]
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Re: Thank you
Nov 29, 2022, 12:54 PM
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Yeah, I agree. I was asking Sunday but it got lost in the 20000 posts. We kept hearing about Randall and he's going to be special. Well, he's been running routes and studying plays... I guess since spring. He's been in most of the season. I keep waiting for the bust out game. But only a catch, low yards in any game.
Point being Williams is special. But imo unless coach speak, why hasn't he been trained up by now to at least be on the field? Thoughts?
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Rock Defender [53]
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Re: Thank you
Nov 29, 2022, 1:19 PM
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110%er [6138]
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Re: Thank you
Nov 29, 2022, 3:16 PM
[ in reply to Re: Thank you ] |
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Randall came back very quickly from an ACL, it can take some time to get back to 100%.
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All-Pro [699]
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Re: I'm significantly more worried about WR coaching than I am
Nov 29, 2022, 12:48 PM
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Great post, wish I could thumb up twice.
You’re dead on about wide receivers. I think the stat about our streak without a 100 yard receiver says way more about our receiving core than it does DJ.
To have a great game as a WR you either need to constantly get behind the defense or make tough catches in traffic, sometimes both. Right now we have no one that can do either.
I like Antonio Williams, he’s shifty and does good in the slot. But if he’s your best receiver your team has a problem.
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Orange Blooded [3288]
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Re: I'm significantly more worried about WR coaching than I am
Nov 29, 2022, 12:49 PM
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The naysayers will say, "But the ACC sucks now". Sorry, but in the 80's the ACC wasn't exactly the best conference either. Sure Clemson was strong, but there was never really a consistent foil (UNC was very good in the early 80's, Georgia Tech and Virginia began to rise in the late 80s into the early 90s, and I guess some could argue that Maryland and NCST were decent). The reality is that until FSU joined the ACC, the ACC was not considered remotely a football conference.
Admittedly Dabo has 12 games to win 10 instead of just 11 like Danny had, but it's still very impressive that he has won 10 games a year for 11 years in a row.
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Hall of Famer [21614]
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That's why I chose win percentage.***
Nov 29, 2022, 12:54 PM
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110%er [7141]
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Re: I'm significantly more worried about WR coaching than I am
Nov 29, 2022, 12:49 PM
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Thank you for putting in the effort to write your articulate post.
There's always a chance that some of our excessively excitable fans will read your post and think a little before launching into their next ignorant diatribe.
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Legend [19694]
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More concerned with WR recruiting than coaching
Nov 29, 2022, 12:49 PM
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I think Tyler would look great coaching Sammy, Nuk, Tee, Williams, Renfrow, etc.
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Hall of Famer [22723]
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Re: More concerned with WR recruiting than coaching
Nov 29, 2022, 12:51 PM
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I agree. Watching Tee yesterday just reinforced that for me.
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Hall of Famer [21614]
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Point taken but we are not just witnessing lack of ability.
Nov 29, 2022, 1:08 PM
[ in reply to More concerned with WR recruiting than coaching ] |
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We are witnessing terrible execution. We are witnessing things that point to coaching AND talent.
There are teams with "inferior talent" at WR who play football much better.
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All-In [48334]
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Re: More concerned with WR recruiting than coaching
Nov 29, 2022, 1:13 PM
[ in reply to More concerned with WR recruiting than coaching ] |
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Yes Sir on both accounts. We've missed, had injuries, and our recruiting wr has gone down. We'd get at least one top 10 rated with speed and hands every cycle. Not in the last 3. Hopefully we did get 2 last year.
Stellato, hurt mostly but never could get the playbook last year. Maybe he'll be late bloomer. Doesn't look like the will Taylor experiment will pan out. He should stick to baseball.
I asked above, where's Randall. I'm not at the game so I can't watch him.
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Hall of Famer [22723]
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Re: More concerned with WR recruiting than coaching
Nov 29, 2022, 1:24 PM
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He’s playing some and has had a few flashes but he just doesn’t really look 100% to me or maybe the time lost to injury just has him behind on development or playbook?? He made a nice catch on a sideline throw in the Miami game.
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All-In [48334]
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Re: More concerned with WR recruiting than coaching
Nov 29, 2022, 3:13 PM
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Yes, it was a beauty.
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Hall of Famer [22723]
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Re: More concerned with WR recruiting than coaching
Nov 29, 2022, 3:23 PM
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I like that play - DJ fakes the handoff, tucks the ball like he is going to run then stands up and throws a pass. Most of them have been to TEs or AW across the middle but that one went a little longer down the sideline to Randall. It’s this type of play that gives me hope for Streeter but also makes me wondee why we don’t see more of it.
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All-In [48334]
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Re: More concerned with WR recruiting than coaching
Nov 29, 2022, 3:40 PM
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1000 % agree. He's done the pump fake and fake run several times and worked good. He's also rolled out like a run and found nice passes.
None in scar. The one play that made me throw my phone was the boundary 50/50 on 3rd n 3 to spector. Tee makes that catch but 6inch vertical spector may catch it 1 out of 10 times. Love him to death and he's a tiger thru and thru but he should be 3 or 4th string. I'd rather see swinney or turner in the game.
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Legend [19694]
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Legend [19694]
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Rock Defender [50]
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Re: I'm significantly more worried about WR coaching than I am
Nov 29, 2022, 12:57 PM
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LIKE I said offense play this year was average the recivers was not getting open when they did they drop the ball QB play was same I think the coaches OC and DC are over there head Dabo built clemson on being physical football team and we are losing this as a team
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Legend [19586]
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Re: I'm significantly more worried about WR coaching than I am
Nov 29, 2022, 1:16 PM
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Trevor and Watson played more in their very first games than Cade has all year. It’s impossible to say what he would have looked like because he wasn’t given any consistent opportunity. I would argue that his 2pt conversion vs Syracuse was very much a play in the conversation of those 2 players’ styles.
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Hall of Famer [21614]
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Part of the reason Dabo trusted them was what they showed
Nov 29, 2022, 1:22 PM
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in practice.
Even if we limit it to games, I saw Trevors first action. I saw Deshaun's. I saw Cade's. Even without watching practice it is obvious to me he is not ready like they were.
We have all the evidence in the world that Dabo saw the same (or more) in practice.
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Legend [19586]
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Re: Part of the reason Dabo trusted them was what they showed
Nov 29, 2022, 3:17 PM
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I don't think anyone would argue that he's ready like they were. The argument is that he's 10x more ready than DJ has been in 3 years.
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Hall of Famer [21614]
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Dabo has already demonstrated he will replace QBs.
Nov 29, 2022, 3:27 PM
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Multiple times.
So if he's willing to do it, the reason he isn't doing it this time is because he thinks it will cause more harm than good.
There is no justification for believing Cade is 10x better (or 2x) than DJ.
We can agree DJ can't get us to the playoffs, but where we disagree is you assume that Cade could. I trust that Dabo would make the switch if that were the case.
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Legend [19586]
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8/29 99 is all the justification I need even if Cade never
Nov 29, 2022, 3:41 PM
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took a snap.
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Hall of Famer [21614]
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That's absolute, not relative. So it's not meaningful.***
Nov 29, 2022, 4:06 PM
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All-In [48334]
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Re: I'm significantly more worried about WR coaching than I am
Nov 29, 2022, 1:23 PM
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But I think more has to be on DJ too. Maybe coaching. I point to ej Williams. Was highly rated. His freshman year with Trevor, he caught 24 passes, 300+ yards over 250 snaps.
He's gone way down each year since. A junior, he should be getting it by now. Is it him, lockerroom character, DJ, coaching, what?
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Hall of Famer [21614]
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My way of thinking regarding QB is simple. I'm not as
Nov 29, 2022, 1:28 PM
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interested if DJ is mostly to blame for our woes (obviously he is a big part of it during the games he has struggled) but it's more to do with what other option do we have?
Dabo has a history of replacing veteran starters with younger backups if it means winning games. He has demonstrated this pattern.... EVEN with Cade.
So if I am being rational, this tells me Dabo truly doesn't see Cade as a better alternative to DJ. Kelly Bryant never struggled as bad as DJ did vs Syracuse. Cole Stoudt never played as poorly as DJ's worst either... yet he still benched them because he believed the backup was better.
Many fans are convinced, DESPITE EVIDENCE, that Dabo is just being loyal at the expense of the team. To me, that's ridiculous and likely only prevalent due to frustrations of missing the playoffs.
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All-In [48334]
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Re: My way of thinking regarding QB is simple. I'm not as
Nov 29, 2022, 3:31 PM
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Good discussion, good thread. As I pointed out that ej is a good case study. Came in with Trevor and looked good as freshman. Not as good as A. Williams but good still. What has caused his demise.
100% in agreement there's no basis or reason to think Dabo or Streeter isn't doing what's best for the team.
I've posted through this year, my only concern is Cade not getting true game snaps and a couple series each game with the ones. He may or may not get better. DJ obviously plays better in practice. Anxiety is a real thing. Cade or maybe hunter Johnson could have gotten some duty in scar game. IMHO it was worth a try. Then one or two series on the sidelines may have gotten dj back in rhythm. He was off in the first half. I could tell his first few passes.
Anyway, not advocate Cade start any game. If he should, Dabo would. But dj did get better in ND game after he sat a series.
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Hall of Famer [21614]
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I can't disagree with anyone who says DJ should have
Nov 29, 2022, 3:34 PM
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been benched at some point during the SCAR game.
From where I'm sitting, that seems reasonable enough to me.
The problem I have (which does not apply to you) is people questioning Dabo's leadership in total.... or declaring how unacceptable it is for us to be "in this position."
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All-In [44050]
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Exactly. Dabo would replace DJ if there were a better option.
Nov 29, 2022, 3:54 PM
[ in reply to My way of thinking regarding QB is simple. I'm not as ] |
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There isn’t, and that’s concerning.
We have three 5 star QBs on our roster. A few months ago, Dabo called it the best QB room he’s had at Clemson. It doesn’t speak favorably of our ability to develop QBs.
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All-TigerNet [13700]
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Re: I'm significantly more worried about WR coaching than I am
Nov 29, 2022, 3:16 PM
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Thanks! I lost this post in the pile of tantrums.
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All-In [48334]
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Re: I'm significantly more worried about WR coaching than I am
Nov 29, 2022, 3:19 PM
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Easy to do. It's crazy. I love good discussion if it's rational and fact based.
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110%er [6138]
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If the primary target doesn't get open, it's usually not
Nov 29, 2022, 3:19 PM
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going to work out. There have been many videos posted on Twitter that shows the secondary read has been wide open. DJ is slow to process and rarely makes it to the secondary. Sometimes it's on the OL, but there have been opportunities missed.
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All-In [44050]
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I agree about the wide receivers being an issue
Nov 29, 2022, 3:50 PM
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but they shouldn’t be. We have signed elite receivers the last few years. They should be able to get open, especially against most of the defenses we play. And even though DJ is sometimes off on his throws, he typically throws a catchable 10-15 yard ball. Our WRs should catch most of those.
I believe it’s a combination of poor player development by our staff, coupled with a bad scheme. It seems that both Streeter and Dabo are heavily involved in the scheme and plays called.
While it would be nice to have another Sammy or Nuk, we still have an abundance of talent at the WR position and I agree that they aren’t producing.
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Hall of Famer [21614]
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I agree WR shouldn't be an issue. We have missed on WR's
Nov 29, 2022, 4:10 PM
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and we have not developed them AND we are not coaching them well before games. All point to coaching.
This isn't a thread to absolve coaching. This is a thread to say that all this emotion hurled at the QB starter is mostly misdirected.
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Orange Blooded [2253]
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Re: I'm significantly more worried about WR coaching than I am
Nov 29, 2022, 3:51 PM
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"But DJ's struggles are multiplied by a total lack of production/consistency from WR's. Elite WR's helped Trevor and Deshaun look even better (they were already awesome)."
-100% yes that DJ's struggles are magnified by a total lack of production/consistency from WRs. The WRs had an excuse for poor production last year (7 of them out for the year with injuries) but this year's group doesn't have that excuse. Anytime you see the coaches put one of the head coach's sons in the game late in the 4th quarter at WR tells us they don't trust this group.
"Elite WRs helped Trevor and Deshaun look even better".
Yes in 2018 and 2019 for Trevor and 2016 for Deshaun, but this is NOT true for Trevor in 2020 and Deshaun in 2014 and 2015.
Trevor had Powell and Rodgers in 2020. That's it. Powell was a 5th year senior who finally had the light come on but becoming 5th round draft pick and 53 catches 800 yards is not "elite". Rodgers was the elite slot receiver who had 77 catches for 1,020 yards.
2014 Deshaun had 2 receivers as well. A young Artavis Scott (76 for 965) and a true Freshman Mike Williams (57 for 1,030). That's it for "elite" receiver play that year. 2015 Deshaun had Artavis again (93 for 901), but due to Williams being out for the year with the neck injury in the opener, Deshaun was forced to spread the ball around. Peake, Legget, Cain and McCloud either never reached their potential or were too young to be "elite". Yes Hunter was on that team and made some critical catches, but he only had 33 catches for the season. Even he was "renfrow" just yet.
Look at the 2014, 2015, and 2020 seasons, I think it is pretty clear we are missing that true go to target at WR. The supporting cast has a similar amount of catches, but the clear difference is a missing 75+ catch receiver who you go to with the game on the line. We clearly don't have that now.
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Standout [335]
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Re: I'm significantly more worried about WR coaching than I am
Nov 29, 2022, 7:18 PM
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Absolutely correct that the issue hurting the team most is the wr recruiting and lack of development. This has been festering for 3+ years and when it was brought up here it was always, take a sip of the kool-aid and reply "I'm trusting Dabo". Not saying DJ doesn't have issues himself but if you don't fix the wr room, it won't matter what qb you bring in. Average talent, poor route running, lack of creativity, blocking sucks, etc. And now one of our two wr recruits is barely top 50, while the other is the 132 rated wr. Not going to compete with the Bama's, Georgia's and OSU's.
Guess as a fan it's easier to blame it on one person then actually fix the entire receiving corp and their coaching.
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Legend [17612]
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Re: I'm significantly more worried about WR coaching than I am
Nov 29, 2022, 8:12 PM
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I hear you. But Cade has not played period.
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Rock Defender [59]
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Team Captain [487]
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Re: I'm significantly more worried about WR coaching than I am
Nov 29, 2022, 8:21 PM
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I wish I had more thumbs to give!
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Letterman [259]
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Re: I'm significantly more worried about WR coaching than I am
Nov 29, 2022, 8:21 PM
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How anyone knows that Clemson will finish 12-2? If DJ plays all of the offensive plays, I personally think they will loss one of next 2 game. Thats what we are actually talking about. Dabo is being very unrealistic and stubborn.
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110%er [7169]
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WR coaching and OC playcalling shows no growth.
Nov 29, 2022, 8:27 PM
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WR are indeed regressing. It's why I can't understand those fans screaming for Dabo to use the Portal. We have the talent. It's the coaching we are failing at.
And sadly Streeter has shown glimmers, but fizzles out quickly. Clemson players deserve better.
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