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specific question about the refs and a call
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Replies: 67  

specific question about the refs and a call

[1]
Jan 4, 2014, 10:47 AM

on the late hit by OSU early in the game - why was that not an automatic 1st down for us? I know it was 4th down, but that was a continuation of the 4th down play and not an after the fact dead ball infraction.

any refs in here?

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It was a dead ball infraction.

[2]
Jan 4, 2014, 10:48 AM

The play was over when our guy went out of bounds.

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If the play was still live it wouldn't be a late hit.***


Jan 4, 2014, 10:49 AM



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Re: If the play was still live it wouldn't be a late hit.***


Jan 4, 2014, 10:51 AM

i understand that, but even after he went out of bounds it seems to me that is a continuation of the ongoing play.

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I've seen it called either way.

[1]
Jan 4, 2014, 10:54 AM

No way this crew was going to call it in our favor.

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There's no such thing as a continuation of the ongoing play

[3]
Jan 4, 2014, 10:55 AM

Either the play is live or dead. If you hit someone after the play is over its a personal foul.

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The play was also over when Beasley sacked their guy

[1]
Jan 4, 2014, 11:15 AM

Yet they get automatic first down

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it was not 4th down, so there was no change of possession

[1]
Jan 4, 2014, 11:16 AM

when the play ended.

it's awkward, but it makes sense.

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It makes sense but that is still a horrible call...the


Jan 4, 2014, 11:20 AM

Superman rip. Guys can jump into the air and bump into each other to draw attention to themselves but can't do what Beasley did.

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ok, but it was a terrible decision on vic's part. why give


Jan 4, 2014, 11:22 AM

the refs the chance to make that call?

swinney jump his @ss for being selfish... deservedly so.

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exactly. selfish move on Vic's part


Jan 4, 2014, 11:24 AM

he has to know better.

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Nevermind 3rd downplay as I read below***


Jan 4, 2014, 11:18 AM



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Re: The play was also over when Beasley sacked their guy


Jan 4, 2014, 1:37 PM

The play was not over when Beasley hit the QB, and he did not sack him because he did not have the ball genius! It was a late hit. Had it occurred after the play on 4th down and been a dead ball foul, it would have been the same. However, I think it occurred on 3rd down, so OSU still had possession and would be given a first down even if it was after the play was over!

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Are you high? It was a 17 yard sack, and the penalty was


Jan 4, 2014, 1:39 PM

Unsportsmanlike conduct, not late hit.


Maybe you're confusing 2 plays, which is more likely

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Clemson


Here is the explanation


Jan 4, 2014, 10:53 AM

I have a close friend who is an official in a BCS conference. I text him asking for an explanation. His reply:

Because he did not make the line to gain (first down) and the down is essentially over when he goes out of bounds... Then comes the late hit, but the play is already over. If he makes the first down, then you tack on the additional 15. Otherwise it is a turnover on downs with the fifteen yards assessed after the play backing up OSU to start their drive.

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Re: Here is the explanation

[1]
Jan 4, 2014, 10:55 AM

that makes some sense i guess. thanks for the response.

so i guess if you stop someone on 4th down you can just hammer them after the play and get away with it? seems petty to award a 1st down over a gesture after a play yet let a guy get an illegal hit with no penalty for the defense.

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Completely agree***


Jan 4, 2014, 10:57 AM



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They still lost 15 yards for the offense


Jan 4, 2014, 11:09 AM

It's not like they went unpunished.

If the change of possession doesn't happen immediately when we went out of bounds, when does it? Has to be instant.

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there needs to be a continuing action clause


Jan 4, 2014, 11:12 AM

the play was dead because he went out of bounds, however the action was not over in regards to that play. i bet a late hit on a QB like that, in the pocket, would be deemed roughing the passer even if the pass was already incomplete.

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Re: there needs to be a continuing action clause


Jan 4, 2014, 11:16 AM

Now you're asking the refs to make a judgement call, on a potential change of possession, and the less we have of that the better. It's got to be a simple rule that is applicable every time.

Roughing the passer is almost always before the ball falls to the ground. If the hit on the QB was so late that it came after the incompletion, it would be a dead ball personal foul.

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Re: there needs to be a continuing action clause


Jan 4, 2014, 11:29 AM

there is no "potential change of possession"....the live action was over but there was still ongoing action pertaining directly to that play. any resulting major infraction by the defense during the course of play (live or dead ball) should result in an automatic 1st down for the offense.

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I don't understand your reasoning.


Jan 4, 2014, 11:33 AM

The hit did happen after the play and didn't give the defense any advantage during the actual play. It didn't reward the other team in any way either as they were penalized for the penalty.

Its similar to throwing an interception and the defense called for holding on the return. The refs don't give the ball back to the offense after the penalty.

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not really


Jan 4, 2014, 11:37 AM

there was an obvious change of possession on the INT.

I guess the question is, when does the possession change hands? I say it is WHEN the ball gets spotted for the other team, not when we step out of bounds. The defense should be held accountable for any infractions during that course of action.

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Knowledge

[2]
Jan 4, 2014, 11:40 AM

After reading this entire thread I really worry about what people know and don't know about the basic rules of football . I now understand why it's always the refs fault.

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It is a clear turnover. Turnover on downs


Jan 4, 2014, 11:42 AM

Its 4th down the play is over and we didn't make it past the 1st down line. That is a turnover.

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Re: It is a clear turnover. Turnover on downs


Jan 4, 2014, 11:45 AM

but the ball has not officially been marked in play for them and the infraction occurred while we were in physical possession of the ball. agree?

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When the ball gets spotted? Are you nuts?


Jan 4, 2014, 4:15 PM

Lets say we stepped out of bounds, and 10 seconds later, well before the ball is spotted, an OSU player punched a CU player. How do we deserve to have the ball? Thats why your sugeestion makes no sense, and why there has to be a definitive rule every time something happens after the play is dead, even if it's only half a second.

And btw, my 'potential change of possession' was not specific to that play from last night, it was a general statement for flags that could change who has possession. As opposed to a flag that only involves yardage, one that determines possession is a much bigger deal, so it's pertinent to leave judgement calls out as much as possible.

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Re: Here is the explanation

[1]
Jan 4, 2014, 10:59 AM

If that is the case why was Beasley's throat slash and automatic first down. It was way after the play was over and the 15 yards would not have been a first down. The head of officials said at that time that a defensive personal foul was always an automatic first down.

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That was 3rd down... Not 4th***


Jan 4, 2014, 11:01 AM



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Re: Here is the explanation

[1]
Jan 4, 2014, 11:04 AM

The difference is who has the ball...

The call against Beasley was between the 3rd and 4th down. They were given 15 yards, and an automatic first down.

The late hit call occurred after McDowell stepped out of bounds, thereby turning the ball over. At that point we were given 15 yards, but it was their ball.

Just like in an interception or fumble, any penalty after the change of possession doesn't reverse the change of possession, it just adds or takes yards from the team that committed the foul.

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Re: Here is the explanation


Jan 4, 2014, 11:13 AM

Now it makes sense. Thanks for the explanation. That was driving me crazy and no one up here in Pittsburgh would help me out. They were to busy messing with me as I went nuts.

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Re: Here is the explanation


Jan 4, 2014, 11:01 AM

So when a team passes the ball on fourth down and the ball falls incomplete the play is over.So in that situation you can crush the qb and still get the ball.Not buying that explantion.

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As long as u crush him after the ball hits the ground.***


Jan 4, 2014, 11:02 AM



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Re: As long as u crush him after the ball hits the ground.***


Jan 4, 2014, 11:06 AM

Roughing the passer will result in a first down for the offense every time.No explanation necessary.

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Not if it's 4th down and the ball hits the ground.


Jan 4, 2014, 11:17 AM

By definition this is the same play that we saw last night.
As soon as the play is over (out of bounds or a pass incomplete or player is down) it is the other teams ball and all penalties are dead ball fouls.

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Whoops-explanation-***


Jan 4, 2014, 11:02 AM



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Re: Here is the explanation


Jan 4, 2014, 11:05 AM

if its a dead ball personal foul, yes.

if its deemed roughing the passer, no.

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Re: Here is the explanation


Jan 4, 2014, 11:16 AM

Well I doubt if we will ever see a crew from the AAC officiating another major post season game.Unfortunately for the Gamecocks,they have already been assigned to the GoDaddy.com bowl.

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Typically roughing the passer occurs before the play is dead


Jan 4, 2014, 11:12 AM

So the offense would keep the ball.

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Re: Here is the explanation


Jan 4, 2014, 11:25 AM

All this makes sense but what I don't understand is this. Why wouldn't OSU have started 1st and 25? We accept that OSU gets possession because it was 4th down and that when he steps out of bounds the down "instantly" becomes 1st down for OSU. There is no limbo for downs. Thus, the late hit happened during OSU's first down possession - this has to be true or the play should have resulted in a first down for Clemson. Thus, the 15 yards should have been assessed from the first down spot resulting in a 1st and 25. Not backed up 15 yards as though possession or downs were in limbo and then set at 1st and 10.

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Re: Here is the explanation


Jan 4, 2014, 10:58 PM

so if a QB gets a late hit on 4th down play when the ball is dead and the 1st down is not made, why does the off. team get an automatic 1st down, otherwise if would be roughing the passer. A late hit can not be called until after a play is over.

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Re: Urban paybacks not refs

[2]
Jan 4, 2014, 11:27 AM

It was not just one or two calls. It was the sum total of flags on Clemson. Boyd scored but we had to take another shot to get the TD. Lack of interference in End zone on another. Someone must have decided Ohio State was so disadvantaged Clemson needed to lay with one arm behind its back and to equalize the game there would be no holding on the nuts. Fortunately Tiger Pride and perseverance overcame the poor officiating.

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CUTIGERTIM
Clemson Rat 1968
Clemson fan forever


Re: specific question about the refs and a call


Jan 4, 2014, 11:28 AM

This penalty also bothers me. I have searched online for NCAA football rules to no avail regarding when change of possession actually occurs, I.e., when the offensive player is down or out of bounds vs when the ball is actually spotted for the other team . There are no published rules online and no other information regarding change of possession.

However, it is still illogical that the penalty was called on the defense "after the play was over" and yet the penalty was assessed to the Ohio State offense. Further research indicates that a personal foul ALWAYS results in an automatic first down and since the penalty was assessed against the defense, the OSU defense must live with the result of that penalty, not the OSU offense.

How can the play be dead if the penalty is called? Just plain logic tells you that the penalty cannot really happen as a result of the play if the play is over. A rules clarification or change is in order. I think this was a bad call (along with several others).

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well said and spot on


Jan 4, 2014, 11:31 AM

much better argument than i could make.

thanks.

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How is it any different than a PF assessed on the kickoff?***


Jan 4, 2014, 11:35 AM



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Re: How is it any different than a PF assessed on the kickoff?***


Jan 4, 2014, 12:00 PM

I don't understand the question. The team receiving the kick off Always gets a first down regardless of the situation.

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Defense gets a penalty on the TD and offense/ST penalized


Jan 4, 2014, 12:31 PM

on the Kickoff.

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Re: Defense gets a penalty on the TD and offense/ST penalized


Jan 4, 2014, 12:47 PM

In that case the change of possession is much more clear-cut. The actual specific time of change of possession is the question here.

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There's really no question


Jan 4, 2014, 12:52 PM

You get 4 downs to get 10 yards. At the end of the 4th down the ball is turned over to the other team. There isn't any period of limbo there.

This isn't basketball where the ball needs to be in your hands to have possession.

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Re: There's really no question


Jan 4, 2014, 12:54 PM

the penalty occurred while we were on offense and they were on defense. it really is simple.

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no, it occurred after our offense turned it over on downs.***


Jan 4, 2014, 2:26 PM



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Re: no, it occurred after our offense turned it over on downs.***


Jan 4, 2014, 9:37 PM

Perhaps you could end the "conversation" with some "deadsolidperfect" FACTS such as the specific NCAA rules that cover when the specific time that change of possession occurs and what the full extent of the penalty is for a personal foul, dead ball or not. I entered this conversation hoping that someone, even you, could possibly enlighten all of us with THE ACTUAL RULES since I could not find them. I may be wrong, but I want to really know the truth, not your opinion, as all of our opinions really do not matter. What matters is what the rules are and I am unable to find the exact applicable rules.

To review (and make it really simple), the issues in question are:
1. What is the EXACT time that possession changes hands?
2. What is the full extent of a personal foul penalty and does it include an automatic first down?
3. A penalty can be called on the offense, the defense, special teams and the sideline. Since the defense was called for the penalty, it makes logical sense that the offense would benefit from that penalty. Not everything makes sense...but it should.

It would be most helpful if you will now provide EXACT QUOTES from the NCAA FOOTBALL RULES BOOK (i do not have a copy)(and NOT from high school or the NFL rules book). Your one line opinion responses are otherwise considered inadequate. Many of us THINK we know the right answers. I, and a few others, want the rules. If you can help all of us...thank you. If you can't...

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down ends when the whistle blows. i don't need it to


Jan 4, 2014, 9:39 PM

prove me them wrong, i agree with the refs.

you seem to be the one needing to prove them wrong.

good luck.

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the link inside would be a good starting place for you.

[1]
Jan 4, 2014, 9:40 PM

http://www.dummies.com/how-to/content/understanding-footballs-downs-yardage-and-stuff.html

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each team has 4 downs to make 10 yards or a first down.


Jan 4, 2014, 11:41 AM

clemson's 4th down was over when the play ended.

that might be the way it's viewed.

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Re: each team has 4 downs to make 10 yards or a first down.


Jan 4, 2014, 12:02 PM

I think everyone understands that. My point is that the penalty was called on somebody and that somebody is the Ohio State defense. The Ohio State defense should then live with the result of their penalty and the decision as to possession should be assessed after the play is fully accounted for.

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it's a team penalty and i don't think everyone understands


Jan 4, 2014, 12:10 PM

clemson's possession ends after 4 downs or we wouldn't be having this conversation.

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Re: it's a team penalty and i don't think everyone understands


Jan 4, 2014, 12:49 PM

I think you missed the point of my prior post which is that a personal fioul is considered an automatic first down. I have yet to review any information that states otherwise.

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how do you award a team a first down if they don't possess


Jan 4, 2014, 1:07 PM

the ball, which clemson doesn't after 4 downs?

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Here is a ruling....

[1]
Jan 4, 2014, 10:52 PM

What does Late Hit Mean?

A penalty assessed when a player makes significant contact with an opposing player after the play has ended. While there is a small margin for error, the players are expected to do everything possible to avoid contact after the play. Late hits fall under the category of unnecessary roughness penalties, and are assessed fifteen yards from the end of the play.

The two major forms of late hits are out of bounds, when a player is hit well after they have crossed the white barrier on the sideline, and after the play, when the referee has blown the whistle and a player makes contact with another player well afterwards. Late hits are considered judgment calls, and often depend on the amount of contact and distance from the sideline where they occur. On late hits in the field of play, it usually depends on the time after the whistle where the contact occurs. Late hits are costly penalties due to the fifteen yard penalty assessed from the end of the play, and in the case of a defensive late hit, an automatic first down.


So they are saying it was after the play was dead is BS. You can't make that call until the play ends. That would like a QB being hit after the play on 4th down and the defense gets the ball and the new offense gets the 15 yd penalty. It is not the same as roughing the passer

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unfortunately the change of possession takes place first.


Jan 4, 2014, 11:13 PM

there are other rules at play. you ought to check them all out. hopefully it will help.

http://www.tigernet.com/forums/message.jspa?messageID=14875043

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OK - then here is one.. Why is a backward pass (lateral)...


Jan 4, 2014, 12:22 PM

not a live ball just because a defensive player touches it. Miller threw a clearly backward pass to his running back and one of our defenders tipped the ball and the refs immediately ruled it an incomplete pass. I see refs all the time calling backward passes incomplete after the receiver drops the ball or goes over their heads out of bounds. In that case the ball should be spotted where the ball goes OB.

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That isn't the rule


Jan 4, 2014, 12:30 PM

The ref ruled it an incomplete forward pass and blew the play dead. It cant really be reviewed in that situation.

It was hard to tell on the replay.

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Re: specific question about the refs and a call


Jan 4, 2014, 1:35 PM

If it was 3rd down, Clemson would have been given an automatic first.

However, since it was 4th down play and after the player went out of bounds short of the marker the play is over and possession switched to OSU. Therefore it was a dead ball foul.

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still don't understand why the rule doesn't then make it


Jan 4, 2014, 2:31 PM

1st and 25

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Re: still don't understand why the rule doesn't then make it


Jan 4, 2014, 8:11 PM

It would only be 1st and 25 if the penalty occurred after first down. It is the same in a kickoff. If there is holding, the ball is spotted 10 yards back and it is first and 10, not first and 20. However, if holding occurs on 1st down, it would be 1st and 20 after the penalty.

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So let me get it straight


Jan 4, 2014, 4:26 PM

A player can lay out a player who goes out of bounds on 4th down and only incur a 15 yd penalty on the change of possession?

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Re: So let me get it straight

[1]
Jan 4, 2014, 8:14 PM

right....provided that the player ran out of bounds before getting the first down.

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