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All-TigerNet [14427]
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clemson baseball
Apr 15, 2014, 8:53 AM
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i know this will matter not to all the coach leggett haters but it should. it really should bring into question our administrations commitment to non major sports in the past. for whatever reason it looks like it is finally getting fixed. about time. maybe this and the facility upgrades and the hiring of lecroy will get us back where we need to be. flame away haters.
CLEMSON -- Chances are, you've never heard of something called the Academic Common Market.
According to the Southern Regional Education Board's web site, the Academic Common Market is a 35-year-old program that allows aspiring college students in 16 states to attend school outside their state without paying out-of-state tuition provided that no school in their home state offers the degree program that's available at a participating out-of-state school.
Tigerillustrated.com Clemson University president Jim Clements believes the Academic Common Market will be a big deal not only for Clemson Athletics but also for general students. There are more than 1,900 undergraduate and graduate degree programs available at the participating schools, most of which are in the South.
By now you might be on the verge of falling asleep because you care about Clemson sports and you clicked on this article expecting something other than boring academic statistics.
But if you care about Clemson sports, and in particular Clemson baseball, you should care about the Academic Common Market.
This ought to get your attention: The University of South Carolina participates in the Academic Common Market and has capitalized on it for years by allowing out-of-state baseball players to pay in-state tuition in Columbia.
Until last Friday, Clemson had participated in the Academic Common Market at the graduate level only. But the school's Board of Trustees approved a measure to include it for undergraduate students, and it is huge news even though it has generated zero headlines until now.
Here's why this is a big deal:
Baseball recruiting, or recruiting in any of the equivalency sports, is a numbers game. We don't want to bore you or lose you with too much analysis of that numbers game, but we can sum it up by saying this:
NCAA rules limit baseball programs to 11.7 full scholarships, with a cap of 27 players receiving baseball-related financial aid. Participation in the Academic Common Market allows South Carolina and other schools to make attractive financial offers to prospects. Now it allows Clemson to do the same thing thanks to the administration's move to include it at the undergraduate level.
This is something that's been talked about and groused about for several years, but only recently has there been real movement on it. Thus much of the credit needs to go to new president James Clements and athletics director Dan Radakovich for not only recognizing the importance, but recognizing the need to do something about it as quickly as possible.
You can also go even higher than that, to the trustees themselves. Over the last couple years under chairman David Wilkins, there's been a noticeably stronger commitment to give athletics everything possible within the rules to win big. A less rigid stance on junior-college transfers is a part of this, and so is the shift to incorporate the Academic Common Market for the equivalency sports.
Before we go any further here, let's dispense with any notion that we're making excuses for Jack Leggett or saying a loophole is the reason South Carolina's baseball program has been superior to Clemson's in recent years.
He needs to close the gap with the Gamecocks and turn the rivalry back in Clemson's favor. He needs to get the Tigers back to playing host to Super Regionals, back to Omaha. No one disputes those notions.
The crux of this topic, though, is the question of whether Clemson is willing to give Leggett and his staff every opportunity to succeed. The answer has been affirmative in the form of the facility upgrades both completed and planned. Now, after Friday, the answer is the same in the form of giving him and his staff the flexibility some of his rivals have in the area of talent procurement.
If you thumb through South Carolina's baseball media guide from last year you'll see four Gamecocks from the state of Virginia who were in a major called Insurance Risk Management. According to the university's web site, the major is included in the school's Academic Common Market offerings.
The 2013 Gamecocks also had five out-of-state players in the Sports and Entertainment Management major. That curriculum is also on the list of South Carolina's ACM offerings.
The Gamecocks' baseball staff has intensified its recruiting efforts in the state of Georgia of late, and the Peach State has been a sweet spot for Clemson's recruiting over the years.
Nine players on Clemson's current roster are from the state of Georgia, which is a part of the Academic Common Market. If Clemson utilized the program and provided those players with a 25-percent baseball scholarship instead of, say, 50 percent, the aggregate result could be the equivalent of two extra scholarships. And a few extra scholarships for every recruiting cycle can make a world of difference, particularly if you're in a pinch after an unanticipated early draft departure and need to go out and sell a first-rate player on coming to Clemson.
Nine years ago, Coastal Carolina's baseball program began a rise to unprecedented prominence by reeling off four 50-win seasons from 2005 to 2010. The Chanticleers used the Academic Common Market to hammer the mid-Atlantic region in recruiting, particularly Virginia and Delaware.
The Academic Common Market is just one part of the multi-faceted dilemma that faces Clemson coaches in the equivalency sports. Some states, such as Arkansas, allow reduced tuition rates to students who live in bordering states. Some schools with monster endowments, such as Virginia and North Carolina, are able to give recruits need-based financial aid without even touching the capped pot of scholarship money.
These perks and breaks can be a tough sell to a university administration because they cost money. Clemson does not have the luxury of a massive endowment. It also doesn't have the luxury of nearly as much state funding as before. So there's been some natural resistance to the possibility that a flood of out-of-state students would take advantage of the tuition breaks.
These issues were on Terry Don Phillips' radar during a conversation all the way back in the fall of 2009:
"With the equivalency sports, some universities have an advantage, either through state programs or through large endowments or what it may be, to provide better financial aid packages than what we presently can do. That's one of the reasons the university is really working hard in their private fundraising efforts, to create endowments for scholarships for all students. If student-athletes would qualify, then it helps them with their package.
"The kids in baseball, track and field and soccer sometimes make their decisions on where they're going to go to school based on the total financial-aid package. They want to go to good programs, but if Clemson is offering a 50-percent scholarship to an out-of-state student, that student still will probably have to pick up $18,000, $19,000 of expense. Whereas if another school in the league, say they offer 50 percent but also have some type of non-countable aid that they can put in there and combine packages, they've got another four or five thousand dollars. You can save a family $10,000 a year.
"That's an issue that I believe has impacted our program. Now, to what extent I'm not sure. But it is an issue that we have to try to address in some form if we can."
Radakovich began examining the issue in the fall of 2013. And it didn't take long for the Academic Common Market to appear on Clements' radar earlier this year. Late Friday night, some of Leggett's disappointment about a series-opening loss at Virginia was no doubt tempered when he learned about the trustees' approval of the Academic Common Market.
Said Radakovich: "We're excited about Clemson's inclusion of the Academic Common Market and giving students an opportunity to attend Clemson under this program. It will be a tool in our recruiting toolbox for many of our equivalency sports programs.
"I know Jack has talked about it a long time. And I sympathize with the struggle that all baseball coaches have as it relates to the minimum scholarship amounts they have to give, how you spread it around amongst people, how some private schools utilize academic endowment scholarships for players that is non-countable aid - all of those things. What this has done is just create a really positive tool for that recruiting toolbox."
Said Clements: "This was a very important step for us. A lot of major universities do this. This will be good for athletics, but it will be good for the general student as well."
The numbers game just became a lot more favorable for Clemson Baseball and the other equivalency sports -- and at not a moment too soon.
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All-In [26968]
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Hiring of Lecroy? Mat LeCroy?
Apr 15, 2014, 8:56 AM
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You know he is currently a major-league coach?
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Orange Blooded [3573]
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Its his split personality Bradley LeCroy***
Apr 15, 2014, 8:58 AM
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All-In [26968]
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Oh, I thought deroberts was referring to something
Apr 15, 2014, 9:05 AM
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he hoped would happen. I see he meant it had already happened.
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All-TigerNet [14427]
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All-In [26968]
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Apologies for the misunderstanding, sir.***
Apr 15, 2014, 9:05 AM
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Heisman Winner [105574]
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It's too late for that Prod
Apr 15, 2014, 9:18 AM
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Once you're on deroberts' bad side, you're there for good. Except for IBeWriteGood who somehow went from deroberts' most hated rival to his BFF.
Message was edited by: GWPTiger®
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All-In [26968]
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I think I've been on his bad side for a number of years.
Apr 15, 2014, 9:19 AM
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So, it's cool.
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Heisman Winner [105574]
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You did the right thing by not trying to use humor
Apr 15, 2014, 9:25 AM
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that only makes it more mad
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All-TigerNet [14427]
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Re: You did the right thing by not trying to use humor
Apr 15, 2014, 9:30 AM
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lol, humor is humor when what you say is funny.
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All-TigerNet [14427]
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Re: You did the right thing by not trying to use humor
Apr 15, 2014, 9:32 AM
[ in reply to You did the right thing by not trying to use humor ] |
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but hey, go ahead and make this about me when i post something that has been a very serious problem at clemson.
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Heisman Winner [105574]
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I'm not making it about you, and I appreciate the
Apr 15, 2014, 9:36 AM
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OP, although I do think you have a tendency to jump on someone who either doesn't understand what you're talking about or someone who takes a different view than you.
Deep breath, relax. Don't you feel better already?
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All-TigerNet [14427]
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Re: I'm not making it about you, and I appreciate the
Apr 15, 2014, 9:49 AM
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so "smh" is jumping on someone. i could have really lit into him if it really bothered me. lots of things in here make me smh.
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Heisman Winner [105574]
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You didn't say "smh" you added an "f" in there
Apr 15, 2014, 10:09 AM
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which made it more confrontational, right?
You also suffer from the same problem I have, which is historical performance. You have a history of jumping down people's throats, you've done it to me plenty of times, so it's quickly seen that way when you say "smfh"
My problem is, even when I post something serious Crump thinks I'm being sarcastic or "trying to start the funny" as he would say and I get tmails from him.
See how that works?
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CU Medallion [62925]
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Ding! Ding!
Apr 15, 2014, 12:54 PM
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Plus, using the term, "goober" helps lessen the impact, right?
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Hall of Famer [22965]
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Re: I think I've been on his bad side for a number of years.
Apr 15, 2014, 10:04 AM
[ in reply to I think I've been on his bad side for a number of years. ] |
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one can only fool "all the people" for a short period of time...eventually even those formerly semi-supportive will question motives and when that happens, it won't end pleasantly
I've found the hiding and ignoring comments by those one has no respect for to be a terrific feature.
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110%er [6937]
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All-TigerNet [14427]
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Re: It's too late for that Prod
Apr 15, 2014, 9:28 AM
[ in reply to It's too late for that Prod ] |
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once again you have no clue sir. just seems to me if you are replying to a post you would have a clue who your coach is.
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Heisman Winner [105574]
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He obviously made a mistake and even went
Apr 15, 2014, 9:33 AM
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so far as to apologize.
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All-In [32747]
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So ? ? ?
Apr 15, 2014, 9:37 AM
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signed,
dbroberts
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Rock Defender [54]
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Re: He obviously made a mistake and even went
Apr 15, 2014, 10:11 AM
[ in reply to He obviously made a mistake and even went ] |
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Stop talking like that to my homeboy or there will be problems.
-Signed, Chad Kelly after exiting the vehicle
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All-In [36450]
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Re: It's too late for that Prod
Apr 15, 2014, 10:17 AM
[ in reply to Re: It's too late for that Prod ] |
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All these young whipper snappers with their inter web lingo and mediocre jokes really chap my ###. Have a little respect.
Signed, Deroberts
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Rock Defender [54]
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Re: It's too late for that Prod
Apr 15, 2014, 10:12 AM
[ in reply to It's too late for that Prod ] |
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IT'S CALLED CHARISMA GWP, GETCHU SUM
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All-In [26968]
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I think y'all are taking this much more seriously than I am.
Apr 15, 2014, 10:27 AM
[ in reply to Hiring of Lecroy? Mat LeCroy? ] |
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Hope y'all can work it out.
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CU Medallion [68535]
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Re: clemson baseball
Apr 15, 2014, 9:02 AM
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disappointing it took us so long to do this. It reflects poorly on Barker and TDP that nothing was done for years. I'm sure it was a money issue yet we now have to redo LJ a second time and will undo a good deal of what was spent on the West Zone by building a new football operations building spending money there a second time.
the planning an fiscal management in the ADept has been poor
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CU Medallion [64742]
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When I was a student-athlete at Clemson....
Apr 15, 2014, 9:21 AM
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all of the out-of-state scholarship student-athletes were charged in-state tuition rates which enabled Clemson to stretch its scholarship dollars a little further. Not sure when or how that changed.
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CU Medallion [68535]
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Re: When I was a student-athlete at Clemson....
Apr 15, 2014, 9:35 AM
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probably in the change over where they went from those stone tablets used then to ledger paper in the pre-computer era.
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CU Medallion [64742]
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Hey...if the abacus ain't broke, don't fix it.***
Apr 15, 2014, 9:44 AM
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CU Medallion [68535]
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Re: if the abacus ain't broke, don't fix it. You took that
Apr 15, 2014, 10:06 AM
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well .... for an old timer.
I say that since I'm older than you
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CU Medallion [64742]
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I'm not old....I'm experienced. Yeah...that's it !!!!***
Apr 15, 2014, 10:15 AM
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CU Guru [1400]
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Orange Blooded [3257]
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Orange Blooded [3413]
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Overall
Apr 15, 2014, 9:10 AM
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This is good for the University. Allows smart out of state kids the ability to come to Clemson for a cheaper rate if we have a program that their state doesnt offer.
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Heisman Winner [141131]
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Do you mind posting the unabridged version?
Apr 15, 2014, 9:35 AM
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TIA.
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Orange Blooded [4504]
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Thanks for the post. Definately something we need and
Apr 15, 2014, 9:46 AM
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glad the Trustees, President and AD of Clemson got it done.
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All-TigerNet [14427]
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Re: Thanks for the post. Definately something we need and
Apr 15, 2014, 9:50 AM
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thank you. just trying to put info out i am quite sure a lot of jack haters had no clue about.
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110%er [6937]
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Re: It is going to take a lot more than that to for some of
Apr 15, 2014, 12:53 PM
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us to change the opinion of that man.
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CU Guru [1400]
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So when did things change?
Apr 15, 2014, 4:56 PM
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As I posted elsewhere on this thread as late as Feb 2012 the school was charging the athletic department the in-school rate for athletes already.
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Legend [17006]
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Re: So when did things change?
Apr 15, 2014, 5:51 PM
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I saw your previous post and link and don't think it is pertinent to the issue. That interview was exceptionally broad. Perhaps the school is allowed to charge the athletic department the instate rate when a full scholarship is at issue - because if the student athlete is receiving a "full scholarship" it becomes irrelevant what rate is being charged. But when a student in a non-revenue sport is being offered a partial scholarship it becomes extremely significant what they are directly being charged for school. The Academic Common Market exists for a reason and Clemson did not participate for undergraduates. Why would such an entity even exist if schools could arbitrarily offer in-state tuition to any student athlete? So despite your previous link, it is quite apparent that Clemson was charging its out of state, partial scholarship athletes at the full out of state tuition rate. Your link dealt strictly with what the Athletic Department was reimbursing the University - which has nothing to do with what the school bills the student.
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Hall of Famer [21648]
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It's sad that most of the dumb, Leggett-haters won't have
Apr 15, 2014, 5:25 PM
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the patience to read the article you posted.
Their abandonment of prolonged thinking is what reduced them to their tragically short-sighted perspectives in the first place. This won't help them.
But thanks for the post. I love the writing style of the author and I love to see the good news, explained in a way that I can understand it.
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Recruit [87]
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Great News!
Apr 15, 2014, 5:26 PM
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I am very aware of the Common Market as my son is a HS baseball player in the state of Georgia He is ranked Top 500 Nationally and is a RHP that throws 90MPH. Unfortunately the cost of out of state tuition has eliminated many potential schools. It has also in the past has limited where Clemson can get its baseball players. Nothing against the kids in the state of SC, but the talent in Georgia, Florida and Texas is unreal. For Clemson to be able to start getting more kids from these states at lower cost is huge.
Is there a list of Clemson programs that fall under the Common Market? I know in order to qualify, the program your interested in must not be offered in the State that you currently live.
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CU Guru [1250]
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The Problem With Your Argument Is
Apr 15, 2014, 5:32 PM
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that, although this will help, talent is not the issue. Brady LeCroy has done a remarkable your of returning the Clemson baseball program talent level to a level more consistent to or equal with those of the past. The real issue is that, even with the influx of talent, the team continues to frequently make the same mistakes and most damaging, can not respond to adversity. That is reflective of overall mental make up of the team. Jack Leggett is responsible for that and has been a characteristic of all of his teams.
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Orange Blooded [4098]
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Re: The Problem With Your Argument Is
Apr 15, 2014, 6:56 PM
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well said and TRUE!
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110%er [6937]
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Re: You can't argue with facts.***
Apr 15, 2014, 7:11 PM
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Legend [19352]
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Re: clemson baseball
Apr 15, 2014, 8:39 PM
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Yes this is a welcome change but lack of talent has not been the root of Clemsons problems.
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Legend [16443]
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Point for longest post ever***
Apr 15, 2014, 8:53 PM
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Replies: 45
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