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Tiger Titan [50729]
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Question for those who support the name changes.
Jun 12, 2020, 1:00 PM
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Do you also support changing the name of Clemson University?
Yes or no?
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Clemson Icon [24728]
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Question for those who support white supremacists shrines
Jun 12, 2020, 1:05 PM
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and names on buildings:
Why?
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Clemson Conqueror [11120]
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Because this is nothing but virtue signaling, and will not improve one single person’s life.***
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Jun 12, 2020, 1:12 PM
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Clemson Icon [24728]
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Why so defensive and angry if it such a meaningless effort?
Jun 12, 2020, 1:20 PM
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For such a meaningless effort, it sure is pissing off a lot of white people who seem feel strongly about it?
These changes will not harm a single soul, yet white southerners are on fire about it.
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Clemson Conqueror [11120]
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White southerners?
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Jun 12, 2020, 1:25 PM
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You’re being a little prejudiced there, aren’t you?
And I didn’t say it’s harming anyone. It’s not.
My question...again: Who is it helping?
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TigerNet Elite [77549]
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Re: White southerners?
Jun 13, 2020, 12:30 AM
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He’s not just prejudiced, he’s very defensive for some reason.
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Orange Blooded [3826]
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Clemson Icon [24728]
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Isn't it true that the Confederacy was a white Southern
Jun 12, 2020, 2:14 PM
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institution founded upon the idea that all men were not created equal to the white man?
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Orange Blooded [3826]
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You must really hate Charleston since that is where it began
Jun 12, 2020, 2:32 PM
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maybe you should change you tnet name to reflect your wokeness
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Clemson Icon [24728]
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You are just flailing wildly and angrily in your support of
Jun 12, 2020, 2:39 PM
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racist white supremacists.
It seems to be a really big deal to you.
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Orange Blooded [3826]
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Why don't you just call me a racist you have implied it in
Jun 12, 2020, 3:54 PM
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every post liberal soy boy.
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Clemson Icon [24728]
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How does me calling confederates white supremacists and
Jun 12, 2020, 5:41 PM
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racists lead you to that conclusion?
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Orange Blooded [3826]
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No I believe you are just an a s s hole***
Jun 12, 2020, 7:16 PM
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CU Medallion [18179]
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CU Medallion [18179]
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Clemson Icon [24728]
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So, the Confederacy was NOT a white southern institution?***
Jun 12, 2020, 3:09 PM
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CU Medallion [18179]
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What the HeII are you talking about?***
Jun 12, 2020, 4:40 PM
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Clemson Conqueror [11120]
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I’ll check back in to see if anyone can tell me
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Jun 12, 2020, 1:20 PM
[ in reply to Because this is nothing but virtue signaling, and will not improve one single person’s life.*** ] |
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whose life gets better when we change these names.
I’m 100% in favor of doing real work to actually improve the lives of people in underprivileged areas, etc.
What has Deandre Hopkins done in that regard? Or is he too busy traveling the world dressed like a drag queen, spending his millions?
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CU Medallion [20802]
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Re: I’ll check back in to see if anyone can tell me
Jun 12, 2020, 1:50 PM
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Search "DeAndre Hopkins" and "charity" or "community" and you can find your answer.
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Clemson Icon [24728]
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You just can't hide your hate for Nuk.
Jun 12, 2020, 2:37 PM
[ in reply to I’ll check back in to see if anyone can tell me ] |
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Why? What has he done that upsets you so? What about Deshaun? Do you hate him too?
It will improve the lives of African American students at Clemson, at the very least. Why is that so hard for you to understand.?
Now, perhaps you can tell me whose lives get worse when we remove the names of racist white supremacists from our buildings?
I'll be waiting.
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Clemson Conqueror [11120]
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Re: You just can't hide your hate for Nuk.
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Jun 12, 2020, 3:19 PM
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There are a lot of pointless things we can do that would not make any lives worse.
The reason to make the changes that are being made should be that it improves lives.
You offered this:
“It will improve the lives of African American students at Clemson, at the very least. Why is that so hard for you to understand.?”
You have yet to explain how this will improve any lives. Please explain.
P.S.
You are not up to date on your PC language. Many black people are now opposed to being called “African American.” Seems like you would be a little more woke about that.
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Orange Blooded [3826]
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he's worried about missing out on a 5 star athlete***
Jun 12, 2020, 3:56 PM
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Rock Defender [51]
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Re: You just can't hide your hate for Nuk.
Jun 12, 2020, 4:57 PM
[ in reply to You just can't hide your hate for Nuk. ] |
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I agree. I am a Clemson Alum. My father, husband and children are too. It is positive change to go back to Old Main for Tillman. We should not have named the honors college after Calhoun, a known racist. Hopkins has been very active in helping with community needs in Houston, Central and now in Arizona. DeShaun has also given so much while at Clemson, for Gainesville and now at Houston.
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National Champion [7999]
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Re: I’ll check back in to see if anyone can tell me
Jun 12, 2020, 2:39 PM
[ in reply to I’ll check back in to see if anyone can tell me ] |
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DeAndre Hopkins has done a lot for his hometown Central, buying uniforms for the pee wee football teams for example, and a lot in the Houston community. Go Google and educate yourself before you post next time. While you’re at it, look up the types of men Calhoun and Tillman were and what they did. Clemson should not honor these types of people with names on prominent buildings.
And yes, I support the names being removed. Calhoun from the Honors College that wasn’t named that until 1982, and Tillman, who literally had blood on his hands. It was originally Main Hall. It should go back to Main Hall.
It really unnerves a lot of you on this board that these young black men may have a different point of view than you. You’re fine and love them, as long as they stay quiet and score touchdowns for you on Saturdays.
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Clemson Icon [24728]
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"Shut up and entertain me."
Jun 12, 2020, 2:43 PM
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That is the mantra of many whites.
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CU Medallion [18179]
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Oh Good Lord***
Jun 12, 2020, 3:00 PM
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Clemson Icon [24728]
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Orange Blooded [3826]
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Legend [6828]
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Orange Blooded [3826]
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Re: doesn't fit narrative***
Jun 12, 2020, 5:42 PM
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Orange Blooded [3826]
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Tiger Titan [50729]
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You should start your own thread if you want to discuss that
Jun 12, 2020, 1:16 PM
[ in reply to Question for those who support white supremacists shrines ] |
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rather than hijacking mine.
Are you going to answer my question, or just respond sarcastically?
This is an important discussion, IMO.
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Clemson Icon [24728]
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I don't want all Clemson fans to be painted in such
Jun 12, 2020, 1:22 PM
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a bad light as many of you are doing your best to accomplish.
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Orange Blooded [3826]
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If we don't agree with you we are wrong amiright***
Jun 12, 2020, 1:47 PM
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Paw Master [16128]
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Paw Master [16128]
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I guess that makes our university his "Shrine"***
Jun 12, 2020, 1:17 PM
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110%er [3824]
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CU Medallion [18179]
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Oculus Spirit [43144]
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There are no shrines on campus for anyone***
Jun 12, 2020, 1:37 PM
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Commissioner [985]
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These are symbols of heritage and our past.
Jun 13, 2020, 12:35 AM
[ in reply to Question for those who support white supremacists shrines ] |
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They represent Southern culture, some good, some bad. If "Clemson" has evolved past being the name of a slave owner into a brand, than why cant people accept that these statues have evolved past being racist shrines into symbols of our past and heritage?
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Heisman Winner [78589]
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Re: Question for those who support the name changes.
Jun 12, 2020, 1:10 PM
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No but I support renaming the Subway since we have no underground transportation in Clemson. 
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Tiger Titan [50729]
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Fair enough.***
Jun 12, 2020, 1:16 PM
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Starter [366]
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Paw Master [17554]
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I might burn my diploma if that happened
Jun 12, 2020, 1:14 PM
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I was ok with Calhoun because John C Calhoun had nothing to do with the creation of Clemson. His only contribution was having a daughter. And because the honors program had only recently (in the last 40 years) been named for him. When I hear Calhoun, I think immediately of John C Calhoun, and maybe the county that I used to live in. I guess in the back of my mind, I think of Fort Hill. But I am not passionate about JCC.
I was ok with Tillman because as much as I appreciate his passion in helping establish our University, he seems to have been a despicable person (I never met him). When I hear the name Tillman, I think of two things - Tillman Hall and evil. With the building being widely seen as a symbol of our University, and with as strong of feelings as the building evokes in many Clemson people, this seems like the right thing to do. I certainly am not passionate about Ben Tillman the man. I did have classes in Tillman Hall, but what the building most represents to me is my University.
Had it been left to me, I would not have changed either, but I recognized that these changes were likely in the best interest of the University, so in the spirit of compromise, I got on board. My feelings toward the building, the honors program, or Clemson University will not change one iota as a result.
When I hear Clemson, while I know the origin of its name, I think of my Alma mater. I think of my diploma, of my wife, my children, my brother, and so many other family members who share our Clemson heritage. I think of football Saturday’s, Tiger paws, and athletic triumphs. I think of a bucolic campus, beside a beautiful lake and at the foot of the majestic Blue Ridge mountains. I think of my ring, which gets recognized and draws comments everywhere I go. I think of brotherhood, pride, passion and solidarity. What I do NOT think of is slavery, racism or hate.
Clemson University is one thing I am VERY passionate about, and I will not stand idly by and see it renamed. I will fight this with all that I have. Dear old Clemson, we will triumph, and with all our might, that the tiger’s roar may echo o’er the mountains’ height.
Message was edited by: dsgriff®
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All-Time Great [88590]
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No, but I’d get over it. It’s just a name.***
Jun 12, 2020, 1:19 PM
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Tiger Spirit [9933]
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Speaking of name changes.
Jun 12, 2020, 1:22 PM
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I wonder what Jeff Davis (Clemson ROH) is thinking.
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Orange Blooded [3826]
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Probably needs to change his name not to offend anyone***
Jun 12, 2020, 1:49 PM
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CU Guru [1020]
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Question for those who eat peanut butter & jelly sandwiches.
Jun 12, 2020, 1:23 PM
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Do you use more peanut butter than jelly, more jelly than peanut butter, or the same amount of each?
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Paw Master [17554]
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yes***
Jun 12, 2020, 1:27 PM
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Paw Master [16326]
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Dynasty Maker [3397]
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Re: Question for those who eat peanut butter & jelly sandwiches.
Jun 12, 2020, 2:18 PM
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Apricot jam is pretty good too.
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Dynasty Maker [3506]
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Tiger Titan [48079]
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Re: Question for those who support the name changes.
Jun 12, 2020, 1:26 PM
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No. It's a brand name at this stage. Clemson is really a business.
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Clemson Icon [27767]
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No.................***
Jun 12, 2020, 1:29 PM
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Letterman [285]
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Re: Question for those who support the name changes.
Jun 12, 2020, 1:32 PM
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Do you also support changing the name of Clemson University?
Yes or no?
Unequivocally no.
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Dynasty Maker [3580]
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Re: Question for those who support the name changes.
Jun 12, 2020, 1:36 PM
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Man I don’t really give a chit what they call buildings , the only problem I have are players that were treated like Gods bad mouthing Clemson and putting the school in a negative light.
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Orange Blooded [3826]
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Wish I could have played a game for a living and have enough
Jun 12, 2020, 1:51 PM
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clout and power to rename buildings.
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MVP [509]
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MVP [509]
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Oculus Spirit [43144]
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Absolutely not***
Jun 12, 2020, 1:39 PM
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Top TigerNet [30012]
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No
Jun 12, 2020, 1:54 PM
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Thomas Clemson was an agriculturalist who was committed to education.
He did not dedicate his life to politics and oppressing black people through those means like Calhoun and Tillman did.
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Orange Blooded [3826]
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So some racist slave holders are more important than others***
Jun 12, 2020, 1:58 PM
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Orange Blooded [3826]
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No, I didn't want the buildings renamed either but I am not
Jun 12, 2020, 1:56 PM
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millionaire football player that is complaining bout my white privilege,
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Tiger Titan [48433]
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No, and the reason is because
Jun 12, 2020, 2:05 PM
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I've yet to hear one single person say it bothers them. Let alone, ongoing discussions about changing it for 17 years.
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Dynasty Maker [3162]
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No, we should not rename Clemson University
Jun 12, 2020, 2:24 PM
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Thomas Green Clemson (TGC) was an agricultural scientist and mining engineer, born in Philadelphia in 1807. His father was a Quaker (Quakers were instrumental in advocating for the abolishment of slavery). It is possible that he attended Quaker schools as a child in Philadelphia. His father passed away when he was very young. TGC was well educated (Norwich University, military school in Vermont and Paris School of Mines in France), well travelled (France, Belgium, and Cuba), and was very much a person of many interests and talents, especially in the fields of agriculture, chemistry, and mineralogy. He was also a musician and an artist. He was fluent in French and German.
He met Anna Maria Calhoun (AMC) in Washington, D.C. in 1838 and was married that same year. At the time, he was 31 years old and she was 21 years old. He would have surely known of her father's (John C. Calhoun) vocal and strongly held racist beliefs/positions. For the first two years they were married, they lived in Philadelphia. From 1843 to 1853, TGC owned slaves at Cane Brake Plantation in South Carolina. Outside of this ten year period, TGC did not own slaves, although he would have been directly exposed to slavery at numerous other times throughout his life.
From 1853 to 1861, TGC and AMC lived in Maryland. He helped lay the groundwork for the Maryland Agricultural College (University of Maryland), which was founded in 1856. At the start of the Civil War, they left the D.C. area and returned to South Carolina. TGC (and his son) joined the Confederate Army. He was 54 or 55 when he put on a uniform.
Following the Civil War, he returned to South Carolina.
It is surprising (to me) that he did not speak out against slavery, given his upbringing, education, and life experiences. Europe was ahead of the United States on abolishing slavery, surely this would have come up during his travels. In addition, Philadelphia had an abolitionist movement (which he was presumably aware of/exposed to while growing up there).
Had TGC never met Anna Marie Calhoun, I do not believe he would have owned slaves, nor fought for the Confederacy. His entire life trajectory changed after he met Anna Marie Calhoun. He came from a wealthy Philadelphia family and he happened to fall in love with a women from a wealthy South Carolina family. They met in Washington, D.C. It should also be noted that had he not met Anna Marie Calhoun, he would not have inherited Fort Hill (from the Calhoun Family) and Clemson University would not have been founded.
At the outbreak of the Civil War, they were living in Maryland and he was well established in his career with the federal government (he was also a lecturer at The Smithsonian). Had the Civil War not occurred, I am not sure they would have ever left Maryland.
Clemson was founded in 1889. 24 years after the Civil War and 36 years after TGC owned slaves. When he was drafting his will he DID NOT explicitly exclude women or minorities from attending Clemson, which was a departure from what other schools were doing at the time (Tulane, Rice, Vanderbilt, etc.).
Unlike both John C. Calhoun and Benjamin Tillman, TGC did not openly defend and advocate for white supremacy until his death.
I do not believe we should rename Clemson University.
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Orange Blooded [3826]
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Re: TGC was born a yankee so give him a pass***
Jun 12, 2020, 2:34 PM
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Tiger Titan [50729]
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Standout [340]
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so basically a person's stance was based on where they were
Jun 12, 2020, 3:22 PM
[ in reply to No, we should not rename Clemson University ] |
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born, and the type of education they received in that locale.
Sounds like the birth of White Privilege to me.
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Paw Warrior [4755]
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Re: Question for those who support the name changes.
Jun 12, 2020, 2:35 PM
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I am torn about the removal of statues and names.
I don't want us to hide from our bad history because every new generation should learn from it. On the other hand, I am not black so I have no idea how those things make our black Americans feel or think on a daily basis - my ancestors were not enslaved and abused.
There is also the matter of location. University buildings and town square statues and monuments on government property seem much more suspect to me. Battlegrounds and museums and other strictly historical (& out of the way) places seem a little less suspect.
Finally, I think commemorating (or celebrating) the past is of less importance than creating a better future for all of our people. Racism is a millstone around our collective necks, and if we need to lose a little history to keep it from choking all of us - then I am willing to consider it honestly and rationally.
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Oculus Spirit [39365]
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Re: Question for those who support the name changes.
Jun 12, 2020, 5:00 PM
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Good post +1
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Paw Warrior [4755]
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Re: Question for those who support the name changes.
Jun 12, 2020, 2:37 PM
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Judge Keller,
For a guy who includes nuance in your analysis of sports - for you to take such a complex issues and try to reduce it to yes or no is disingenuous and silly.
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Tiger Titan [50729]
TigerPulse: 79%
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I do think such a discussion should be more nuanced than a simple yes or no.
Jun 12, 2020, 3:21 PM
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Unfortunately, discussions people tried to have here about the nuances of Calhoun and Tillman were usually met with a lot of vitriol and criticism from those who view removing those names as the only right opinion.
Their point: those men were racist, black people are affected by it, so those names should be eliminated.
Thus, I felt it was easier to pose my questions as a simple yes or no. Interestingly, many people who responded so far have yet to answer the question. For those who have, thank you!
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Standout [340]
TigerPulse: 74%
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since when did Racism have nuances?
Jun 12, 2020, 3:24 PM
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since when did people opinions have nuances?
since when did people's egos have nuances?
since when did American politics have nuances beyond the value of the greased palm?
just asking...
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Tiger Titan [50729]
TigerPulse: 79%
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Joined: 2003
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Virtually everything has nuances.
Jun 12, 2020, 3:39 PM
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Some people can see them, others can’t (or choose not to).
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Orange Blooded [3826]
TigerPulse: 100%
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Most people have a herd mentality. If everyone else thinks
Jun 12, 2020, 4:07 PM
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this is right then I must be wrong for having a different opinion. Of course no one wants to be that person that so I'll follow the herd right off the cliff
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Walk-On [122]
TigerPulse: 59%
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Re: Question for those who support the name changes.
Jun 12, 2020, 3:26 PM
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Not only no, but hell no, because Clemson's gift made this university possible. Calhoun did nothing for the university and made and pursued a treasonous argument agains the United States of America. And Tillman was a racist, murderous thug who in current times cannot be honored by placing or leaving his name on a building.
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Ultimate Clemson Legend [105932]
TigerPulse: 100%
64
Posts: 44238
Joined: 2008
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No***
Jun 12, 2020, 3:32 PM
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Tiger Titan [50729]
TigerPulse: 79%
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Why not?***
Jun 12, 2020, 3:41 PM
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Ultimate Clemson Legend [105932]
TigerPulse: 100%
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I'm not sure where to start, if in fact you are interested
Jun 12, 2020, 4:47 PM
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in having a legitimate discussion about it...I have my doubts.
First I should point out that when the idea of renaming Calhoun Honors College and Tillman Hall came up a couple of years ago, I was on the fence. But eventually I sided with not changing those names. I didn't really have a reason other than historical significance I guess.
You and I attended Clemson at roughly the same time, I think you graduated a year before I did. I have stated this in another thread days ago, but even back then I had black friends who would not schedule a class in Tillman because they were so uncomfortable with it, literally the thought of being in Tillman was unbearable to the point they avoided it all together. As I thought more about that my views on this changed. I don't think anyone who chooses to attend Clemson for 4 years should be made to feel uncomfortable, so why not change the names? Clemson should be a welcoming and inclusive institution of higher learning.
With all of that being said, I do not think the name Clemson should be changed. First, the Clemson name has become more than a last name, it is a worldwide brand. Second, the institution itself has always been Clemson with some variation of title along with that name. This is not a case where the name Clemson was added in the mid-1900s. Third, I have no knowledge of TGC holding similar views or hatred or being a murderer as Tillman did (honestly, Matthetiger® explained it way better than I can up above).
As a counter-point to being an inclusive institution of higher learning, I believe inclusiveness 100% has to be tolerance of all, not just liberal/progressive ideologies. Unfortunately it seems many colleges and universities have seen the pendulum swing way too far under the justification of diversity and inclusion. It seems diversity of thought is no longer encouraged at schools across the country. However, I do not believe the decision to change these names falls under that category even though many on the Tiger Board(s) are claiming.
Those are just my opinions Judge Keller®, I am not speaking for anyone else and I have learned this week that my opinions are unpopular on these boards. But that's ok, I welcome the TDs and celebrate them.
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Tiger Titan [50729]
TigerPulse: 79%
58
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Joined: 2003
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Thank you for sharing your thoughts. I am interested in having a discussion.
Jun 13, 2020, 1:56 PM
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My frustration is that some people (not you) seem to take a hard line stance that supporting name changes is empathetic and supportive, while wanting to keep names the same is racist and lacking in compassion. I don’t think that is fair. My concern is that any meaningful discussion today will be undermined from the start by this rigid set of rules.
I don’t want anyone feeling uncomfortable at Clemson, whether they are a student, professor, alumni, visitor, or fan. My question, then, is what constitutes a reasonable complaint? If a building named after a racist from 150 years ago is offensive, and that is deemed valid, how many people must be offended before the building must be renamed? Twenty? A hundred? Just one?
What other issues are valid? As I’ve asked here previously, what other issues are considered warranted complaints? What are people allowed to be offended by, and which offenses justify making drastic changes?
I don’t expect you or anyone to answer these. I ask them because I do feel that this is a slippery slope. I want to be part of the solution, one that promotes compassion and understanding between races. But I don’t think the answer is telling white people that they don’t understand and don’t get an opinion, especially if that opinion being wrong gets them labeled a racist.
Thanks for reading. Like you, I just want what’s best for Clemson University.
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Oculus Spirit [39365]
TigerPulse: 100%
57
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Joined: 2011
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Re: Question for those who support the name changes.
Jun 12, 2020, 3:53 PM
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I support Clemson University , both with my heart and history and with my hard earned dollars spent .
I believe the BOT has done a good thing here . Not because they " gave in to pressure " but because of the message it sends to students of all races and all creeds ... Clemson University values your humanity above all .
I don't necessarily agree with removing names and statues as a means of " cleaning " the slate , but there is great value in this move .
Young black southerners particularly those who would balk at a Clemson scholarship based on " racial " overhangs at the school will see this move in conjunction with guys like Watson and Hopkins support and who are their heroes likely feel strongly about such event taking place , as well they should .
Whither one agrees with this or not , it was in my mind a very telling time in Clemson history and indeed an intelligent move by the BOT .
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Oculus Spirit [39365]
TigerPulse: 100%
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Re: Question for those who support the name changes.
Jun 12, 2020, 4:32 PM
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I'd enjoy discussing what was thumbs-down on my post with the thumbs-downer ?
I mean ...differing opinions are a good thing , right ?
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Tiger Titan [50729]
TigerPulse: 79%
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Joined: 2003
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I agree with you, in that the BOT did the right thing.
Jun 13, 2020, 2:00 PM
[ in reply to Re: Question for those who support the name changes. ] |
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There was only one right choice here, given the significant political pressure and media pressure at this moment in history.
My frustration is that certain groups/entities seem to hold so much power, to the point that if you disagree publicly then you’re wrong and you must suffer the (at times) severe consequences.
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Game Changer [1723]
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Re: Question for those who support the name changes.
Jun 12, 2020, 4:03 PM
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I only support renaming if the new name does not have the Woo hoo in the fight song. 
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Game Changer [1723]
TigerPulse: 100%
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Re: Question for those who support the name changes.
Jun 12, 2020, 4:10 PM
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The serious answer would be i support renaming the honors college and tillman because it upsets some for legitimate reasons and causes divisiveness.
I would not support renaming Clemson because that name does not have that same level of divisiveness. Instead Clemson has become inclusive family. When i see someone in a clemson hat (especially whole traveling) its almost like a family reunion. Clemson family.
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Team Captain [492]
TigerPulse: 100%
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Re: Question for those who support the name changes.
Jun 13, 2020, 2:25 PM
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Well said. I don’t understand why some refuse to see how programs and buildings named after such people can cause hurt.
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Paw Warrior [4913]
TigerPulse: 100%
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Re: Question for those who support the name changes.
Jun 12, 2020, 4:57 PM
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No
AFTER they change the name of the state of Washington and every town and city named for anyone that ever owned a slave get back to me and I'll consider it.
And after self-righteous Yale changes their name - named after one of the biggest slave traders in history.
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Rock Defender [51]
TigerPulse: 49%
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Re: Question for those who support the name changes.
Jun 12, 2020, 5:00 PM
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Yes! We should be grateful for more diversity. We should also embrace an attitude of kindness and empathy to all people attending Clemson University.
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