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All-TigerNet [12943]
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If you look at Brownell's numbers beginning in his 3rd year
Mar 19, 2019, 12:36 PM
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(which takes the first two away). So start in year 3, and look at 7 years of what would be 100% Brownell's program. The question arises, "why have we only made 1 NCAAT over that time?"
Here's why:
He has exactly 11 wins over ACC teams that finished the year above .500 in conference play. That's 11 wins in 7 seasons. In 4 of those 7 seasons, we had either 1 or ZERO wins against ACC teams that had a winning conference record. That is how you get into the dance. You have to wins SOME of those games.
That's a 22% winning % over his time here, and 17% if you remove the first two years.
Let'a use Virginia Tech as a comparison. If you only take away Buzz Williams first year at VPI, the Hokies are 16-19 in games vs. ACC teams that finished above .500 in conference play. That's approx. a 44% winning %.
VPI only won 10 conference games in the 3 years prior to Williams arrival.
This is what I don't understand about the "you can't keep changing coaches" and "we can't get anyone better" crowd. It's been 9 years, and yes we can.
I know VPI is in the Tidewater (good recruiting), but Clemson has things to offer that others do not as well.
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Oculus Spirit [82077]
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Re: If you look at Brownell's numbers beginning in his 3rd year
Mar 19, 2019, 12:37 PM
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110%er [6075]
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And he cannot recruit or develop talent
Mar 19, 2019, 12:40 PM
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He has to rely on transfers to keep the program afloat.
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All-In [44054]
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What an ill-informed post.
Mar 19, 2019, 12:43 PM
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You do know that transfers are a big thing in college basketball now, right?
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110%er [6075]
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Name 1 teams that HAS to rely on MULTIPLE transfers like we do***
Mar 19, 2019, 12:47 PM
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Heisman Winner [105574]
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I'm not sure how good UNC would be this year without
Mar 19, 2019, 2:53 PM
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Cam Johnson.
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All-TigerNet [12943]
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I disagree
Mar 19, 2019, 12:53 PM
[ in reply to What an ill-informed post. ] |
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yes, they are a thing... but there are not many programs that rely on them over their recruiting
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Legend [19697]
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Iowa St is the only program I can think of
Mar 19, 2019, 2:36 PM
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who has built through transfers over the long haul
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All-In [44054]
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We don't rely on them for most of our recruiting either.***
Mar 19, 2019, 2:38 PM
[ in reply to I disagree ] |
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110%er [8681]
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Re: We don't rely on them for most of our recruiting either.***
Mar 19, 2019, 3:02 PM
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Having transfers as 4 of 5 starters says otherwise.
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All-In [44054]
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I didn't say that our transfers haven't made a positive
Mar 19, 2019, 3:51 PM
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impact. I said that we don't rely on them for the bulk of our recruiting. We still bring in a majority of our players via high school recruits.
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All-TigerNet [12943]
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we rely on transfers for a bulk of our playing time
Mar 19, 2019, 4:02 PM
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fact- and it can't really be argued...
BB chose to got that route the past couple of years, and I don't blame him. The problem is, if you do that, you better win, and win now. Winning enhances recruiting, and allows you to bring more in. We did not win this year with 4 starters that were both transfers, and seniors.
That is significant
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All-In [44054]
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You said that Clemson relies on transfers over recruiting
Mar 19, 2019, 4:27 PM
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which I assumed to mean that Clemson signs more transfers than high school players. And that isn't true.
By the way, getting transfer players to sign with you still counts as recruiting.
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All-TigerNet [12943]
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haha***
Mar 19, 2019, 4:29 PM
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All-In [27366]
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Who do you want on your team?
Mar 19, 2019, 3:00 PM
[ in reply to What an ill-informed post. ] |
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Athletes like Trevor and Tua, or transfers like Kelly and Jalen.
Newsflash: Transfers transfer for a reason. And it usually isn't because they're the best player on their team.
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Rock Defender [54]
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Re: Who do you want on your team?
Mar 19, 2019, 3:13 PM
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You're comparing two completely different sports.
Players like Seth Curry will transfer from a mid-major to Duke, or Kyle Wiltjer who is buried at KU will transfer to Gonzaga. Both players would be massive upgrades at Clemson.
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All-TigerNet [12943]
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you can't sustain a program on transfers... the exception
Mar 19, 2019, 3:39 PM
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may be Iowa St., as pointed out earlier. They are a perennial NCAAT team. We are not. We have 4 of 5 starters that are transfers this year, and leaving.
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Rock Defender [54]
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Re: you can't sustain a program on transfers... the exception
Mar 19, 2019, 5:02 PM
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Can you provide evidence of why you think that a program built on transfer isn't sustainable? I see no evidence to suggest that hitting the transfer market hard has any detrimental effect.
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All-TigerNet [12943]
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well.. it hasn't sustained Clemson... so the burden of proof
Mar 19, 2019, 5:37 PM
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would be on you to show where it has. I've already conceded Iowa St. may be the exception, but I can't think of others.
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Rock Defender [54]
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Re: well.. it hasn't sustained Clemson... so the burden of proof
Mar 19, 2019, 6:03 PM
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We are one year removed from a sweet 16 that had transfers making up 3/5 starters. This year, with transfers making up 4/5 starters, we were one game away from making the tournament...how exactly have we not been sustained by transfers?
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All-TigerNet [12943]
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I am curious to know what is ill-informed about his post
Mar 19, 2019, 4:50 PM
[ in reply to What an ill-informed post. ] |
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w/o four starting transfers, where would our program be? What is off about his post?
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Hall of Famer [22393]
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It may be a temporary solution for covering up talent
Mar 19, 2019, 12:54 PM
[ in reply to And he cannot recruit or develop talent ] |
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evaluation and player development issues or to occasionally supplement your team, but a reliance on it is no way to sustain a good program.
The heavy reliance on transfers probably hurts fan support as well. Fans like to enjoy the recruiting process and get to know the kids as they progress through their four or five years of Clemson life. There just doesn't seem to be a good fan connection to this team or coaching staff.
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All-In [44054]
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If we used a football instead of a basketball
Mar 19, 2019, 2:37 PM
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and tailgated for hours before the games, and ran down a hill, our fans would probably like it more.
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110%er [8009]
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You sound bitter that our fans enjoy and support
Mar 19, 2019, 4:47 PM
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a championship level football program.
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Rock Defender [54]
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Re: It may be a temporary solution for covering up talent
Mar 19, 2019, 2:39 PM
[ in reply to It may be a temporary solution for covering up talent ] |
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It is most certainly not a temporary solution. Fred Hoiberg is well known for relying on the transfer market and most of y'all would die to have him here.
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All-TigerNet [12943]
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absolutely... but he wins***
Mar 19, 2019, 4:55 PM
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All-In [44054]
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What does Clemson have to offer basketball players?
Mar 19, 2019, 12:41 PM
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A school that loves its football.
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CU Medallion [64593]
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I can guarantee you....
Mar 19, 2019, 12:43 PM
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put a quality product on the floor, and the Clemson family will support it.
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110%er [6825]
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Re: I can guarantee you....
Mar 19, 2019, 12:47 PM
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Where was everyone last year?
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Team Captain [466]
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Isn’t that the motto of
Mar 19, 2019, 12:51 PM
[ in reply to I can guarantee you.... ] |
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a football school regarding basketball? “Just get good without fans” Because god forbid we actually sellout a non conference basketball game every now and then. We consistently sellout home football games, but can’t manage to get a tenth of the football fans at the B-ball game in order to sellout because that would be putting out too much effort.
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All-In [44054]
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We couldn't even sell out Littlejohn against #4 UVA
Mar 19, 2019, 2:33 PM
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this past January, and it was literally right after the football parade with 50,000 people in attendance.
Let's not forget that we were ranked in the preseason this year, coming off of a Sweet 16 season last year that was one of our best in program history. So the "win and they will come" argument is flat out wrong.
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CU Medallion [64593]
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Clemson fans aren't interested in seeing No. 4 UVa play...
Mar 19, 2019, 2:58 PM
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They're interested in seeing Clemson show-up and play
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All-In [44054]
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Our team plays hard and is extremely competitive.
Mar 19, 2019, 3:53 PM
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That, plus the fact that our players wear Clemson on their jerseys, should be enough to get fans to support the team - especially against a top 5 ACC foe.
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All-TigerNet [12943]
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You have to take into account the cumulative effect
Mar 19, 2019, 3:59 PM
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of BB's tenure on the fanbase. You may not like that, but it's reality. We have not been competitive recently. I will go back to his "big wins"...
In the past 7 years, there have been FOUR (4) years where we either won one (1) game, or ZERO, vs. ACC opponents with a winning conference record.
Those are big games... NCAAT type wins... and we've had four years where we had only 1 win, or NONE.
That takes a toll.
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All-In [44054]
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We lost 7 games this year by a combined 11 points.
Mar 19, 2019, 4:30 PM
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That shows we are extremely competitive.
I'm not disagreeing that we need and want to win more of those types of games, and doing so will energize the fan base. But no one can say that our team isn't competitive.
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All-TigerNet [12943]
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no it doesn't... it showed we lost. Competitive would have
Mar 19, 2019, 4:37 PM
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been winning 2-3 of them, and losing 3-4 of them
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All-TigerNet [12943]
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Heisman Winner [105574]
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Lack of PR support from the administration
Mar 19, 2019, 4:30 PM
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When Barnes was the coach the athletic department would be all over twitter, instagram and facebook generating tons of excitement for games. If CBB had that type of support he'd pack the LJC every night.
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All-TigerNet [12943]
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^^^ this is going to be an underrated post***
Mar 19, 2019, 4:38 PM
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Orange Blooded [2287]
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Re: Lack of PR support from the administration
Mar 19, 2019, 5:33 PM
[ in reply to Lack of PR support from the administration ] |
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Of course "twitter, instagram, and facebook" were 3 separate sign boards around campus with a written piece of paper reminding students when to pick up their tickets. There really are too many internet distractions these days that keep students from attending games!
When Barnes was the coach the athletic department would be all over twitter, instagram and facebook generating tons of excitement for games. If CBB had that type of support he'd pack the LJC every night.
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Recruit [90]
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110%er [6075]
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Team Captain [466]
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VT fans
Mar 19, 2019, 12:54 PM
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actually go to basketball games and they lost first round last year while we made it to the Sweet 16.
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All-TigerNet [12943]
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Buzz has brought excitement***
Mar 19, 2019, 12:55 PM
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110%er [6825]
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Re: Buzz has brought excitement***
Mar 19, 2019, 12:56 PM
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They spend 9.8 million on Basketball...
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Orange Blooded [3921]
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Re: Buzz has brought excitement***
Mar 19, 2019, 12:58 PM
[ in reply to Buzz has brought excitement*** ] |
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and what he did for all the other toys in those movies cannot be understated!
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Orange Blooded [3617]
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Re: Buzz has brought excitement***
Mar 19, 2019, 2:05 PM
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I think you mean "cannot be overstated".
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Orange Blooded [3921]
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Re: Buzz has brought excitement***
Mar 19, 2019, 2:55 PM
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well, technically I think it cannot be understated as well as overstated. so, there's that
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110%er [6825]
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Re: If you look at Brownell's numbers beginning in his 3rd year
Mar 19, 2019, 12:47 PM
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FIRE DAVID CUTCLIFFE!!!!
He can hardly beat any ranked opponents, constantly finishes in the middle of the table and only had one good run. They are paying him way to much at 2.6 million for such mediocre results.
For a newly hire coach, the biggest recruiting challenge can be retaining the current players your first year. So Brad kept OP locker room. Kept the program going when we were homeless.
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All-TigerNet [12943]
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surely you are not serious...***
Mar 19, 2019, 12:52 PM
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110%er [6075]
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110%er [6825]
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Re: Duke Football was a bottom feeder, Clemson Basketball is middle of the pack
Mar 19, 2019, 12:59 PM
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Being "middle" of the pack is "new to us". We are the bottom feeder school of basketball.
Really, if you look at our historic SRS for basketball against other ACC teams play, we rank 16th of 17th.
17? Yes, that includes former members of Maryland and the Coots. The only reason why we are not dead last is that the coots are worse.
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Commissioner [963]
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Re: If you look at Brownell's numbers beginning in his 3rd year
Mar 19, 2019, 1:29 PM
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I've read a lot of your posts. I don't understand how you're putting together than the program was 100% Brownell's in his third year.
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All-TigerNet [12943]
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I only say that to pacify the crowd that says
Mar 19, 2019, 1:41 PM
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"OP left the cupboard bare". I don't agree with that. But I say "3rd year just to make that point. His program, his guys.
If you consider his entire time... he only has 17 wins against ACC teams that finished above .500 in conference. That includes 6 his first two years.
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110%er [6825]
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Re: I only say that to pacify the crowd that says
Mar 19, 2019, 1:55 PM
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See, this is what I don't get.
Brad is constantly .500 in ACC play most years. If you are .500, that means you lose to the top teams and beat the bottom teams more often than not. And if you are beating the +.500 teams, they you are the #1 or doing something bizarre like beating Duke and losing to BC.
Duke was 6-4 against +.500 ACC teams this year and they #1. Virginia Tech was 2-5 and even one of those wins was against a Zion-less Duke team. Realistically, they would have been in the same boat as us record-wise against +.500 teams.
I just don't get your point because if anyone is winning 50%+ of .500 programs, that will make them an elite team in conference.
What is Brads record against teams finishing below us? As least he is Bowden.
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All-TigerNet [12943]
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he has won 11 of those games in 7 years
Mar 19, 2019, 3:21 PM
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what is hard about that? Your point makes no sense. This are the games that get you in the NCAAT. Period.
He has won 11 in 7 years. 17 total since he has been at Clemson. No one is saying to be "elite". But when you are a 19-20 win team, on the bubble, and can't get in the tournament.... these are the reasons why.
It's just that simple. To say otherwise is patently stupid.
The lower half of the ACC is the reason he has been here this long, IMO
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Rock Defender [54]
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Re: I only say that to pacify the crowd that says
Mar 19, 2019, 2:48 PM
[ in reply to I only say that to pacify the crowd that says ] |
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That's such an arbitrary point to start from though.
I think you brought up an interest point in the other thread regarding Shaka Smart though. I've provided Shaka's record versus Brad's for the last 4 years below. Shaka has been in an easier conference and has had more resources, support, and local talent to recruit and Brad's record is clearly better...yet people would prefer to have Shaka over Brad here.
Brownell 78-53 (36-36 in conference) (2-1 in NCAAT) Smart 66-66 (31-41 in conference) (0-2 in NCAAT)
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All-TigerNet [12943]
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we can start from whatever point you want, and it doesn't
Mar 19, 2019, 3:34 PM
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change the numbers
Anyone who doesn't think Shaka Smart would be a big hire for Clemson has lost their mind... IMO .
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Rock Defender [54]
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Re: we can start from whatever point you want, and it doesn't
Mar 19, 2019, 4:10 PM
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Lol then I must have "lost my mind" because, based on the numbers I provided, Shaka is objectively not an upgrade over Brad.
Shaka is at Texas, which has more money than god, and can't produce a better record than Brownell. That doesn't even take into consideration that Shaka is coaching in a weaker conference.
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All-TigerNet [12943]
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he may or may not turn out better... but he would be a
Mar 19, 2019, 4:31 PM
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"splash hire" for sure, and I think we'd see immediate recruiting impacts from it.
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Rock Defender [54]
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Re: he may or may not turn out better... but he would be a
Mar 19, 2019, 4:39 PM
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If Shaka Smart is the best that Clemson can muster, we should never fire Brownell.
I think that we can do better, if Brownell gets let go.
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Commissioner [974]
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Re: If you look at Brownell's numbers beginning in his 3rd year
Mar 19, 2019, 2:28 PM
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VT is in Southwestern Va. They're not real close to the tidewater area. That being said Buzz Williams is a really good coach. Rumblings up here is Texas A&M is going to come hard for him. He is Tx guy.
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110%er [6825]
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Re: If you look at Brownell's numbers beginning in his 3rd year
Mar 19, 2019, 3:01 PM
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We were ignoring that. Maybe he was thinking RPI... VCU. Nope. ODU then.
VT *historically* recruits well from the tidewater so at least we will give him that, since my family is from Southampton Co... and the reunion is a quasi Hokie meet. Makes it all the better to wear my Clemson gear.
That is interesting to see how hard A&M push. He has those connections.
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