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Hall of Famer [21874]
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Serious Question: Why do people on here "protect" brownell
Dec 1, 2015, 8:49 AM
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like so many protected/argued for Jack over his last few years?? I understand that Jack earned that respect, but has Brownell??
At least Jack ran a very good program for a very long time.
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CU Medallion [67926]
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Re: Serious Question: Why do people on here "protect" brownell
Dec 1, 2015, 8:52 AM
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serious answer. How dense do you not get it is a tougher road to get CU hoops to a reasonable level. He is a good coach who wants to be here but it is far tougher to build in his sport here than the others. Mostly because of ill informed people who arent going to support hoops anyway who think Know what he should do. You sound like one of these
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Letterman [285]
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This is a pathetic excuse***
Dec 1, 2015, 8:54 AM
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Orange Blooded [4559]
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clemtiger117 coming in 3..2..1
Dec 1, 2015, 8:55 AM
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This is gonna be good
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CU Medallion [67926]
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Re: This is a pathetic excuse- no the support for hoops
Dec 1, 2015, 9:30 AM
[ in reply to This is a pathetic excuse*** ] |
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is pathetic. if 10% of the people who go to football went to hoops we'd have a decent aqtmosphere and maybe attract a few player who werent projects for their first few years
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Heisman Winner [105574]
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So poor turnout is the reason Brad can't recruit?***
Dec 1, 2015, 9:32 AM
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CU Medallion [67926]
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Re: So poor turnout is the reason Brad can't recruit? doesnt
Dec 1, 2015, 9:34 AM
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help. not the only reason
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Hall of Famer [22395]
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Clemson fans have shown they will support the basketball
Dec 1, 2015, 9:43 AM
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team, but you have to give them a reason to come - win games like last night against a rebuilding team that didn't even make the NIT last year and the one against UMass and you will start to see the crowds improve.
Create some winning momentum and they will come.
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Heisman Winner [105574]
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Hall of Famer [22395]
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49th in attendance with 150 more fans per game than Duke.
Dec 1, 2015, 10:26 AM
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pretty ### good.
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Heisman Winner [108390]
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wasn't that OP's last year?***
Dec 1, 2015, 10:27 AM
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Orange Blooded [4559]
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The fan support excuse is a slap in the face
Dec 1, 2015, 10:38 AM
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If you win, they will come. In droves. Just two years ago we sold out two NIT games. EA sports had us ranked as the toughest place to play some years back. When we are playing well, I put Littlejohn Coliseum and our fans up against anybody's in the country. Brownell's got this year and next to prove he can get us there.
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Heisman Winner [108390]
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i agree. here's how OP's years went after taking over for
Dec 1, 2015, 10:48 AM
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coach shyatt:
OP's Attendance Record
03-04 7,681
04-05 6,960
05-06 7,086
06-07 7,329
07-08 8,609
08-09 8,476
09-10 9,465
i believe those are correct & the why i asked Chuck if he had the correct numbers for Brownell's first campaign.
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Hall of Famer [22395]
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Heisman Winner [108390]
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brad's had fine support considering the program has
Dec 1, 2015, 10:56 AM
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gone backwards, certainly he hasn't yet reached the lows of OP's early years.
10-11 8,289
11-12 7,828
12-13 7,743
13-14 7,486
14-15 7,635
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Rock Defender [54]
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Heisman Winner [105574]
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Orange Blooded [4559]
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Re: Brownell inherited a team that was already at a reasonable
Dec 1, 2015, 9:01 AM
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CU Guru [1404]
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Re: Brownell inherited a team that was already at a reasonable
Dec 3, 2015, 3:13 AM
[ in reply to Brownell inherited a team that was already at a reasonable ] |
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You again.
Egsds. Do you know basketball or do you just type randomly and get lucky with some words?
Reasonable level? Yes they made the ncaas. They played athletic run and pray style that was not sustainable. OP did not recruit good players. He recruited athletes... See ft shooting under OP. OP left BC he knew he was done. He never developed players.
If you do not like Clemson basketball, then leave it alone.
Coach BB has 1 to 2 years left max to see progress and success. If he does not, he will be gone by 2018. Then you can cheer like the people Trump envisions and remembers.
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Hall of Famer [21874]
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Re: Serious Question: Why do people on here "protect" brownell
Dec 1, 2015, 9:02 AM
[ in reply to Re: Serious Question: Why do people on here "protect" brownell ] |
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How dense are you to not realize that CU hoops was at a decent level before Brownell took over???
OP had us in the post season 6 straight years. He only missed the post season in his first season.
On the other hand, Brownells best team was his first team that he inherited from OP.
So 7 straight years(4 straight NCAA tourneys) in the post season including Brownells first season as coach. Is that not a decent level??
Shyatt was a flop before OP, but Rick Barnes and Cliff Ellis both fielded some good teams during their tenure also.
Barnes made the post season all 4 seasons he was in Clemson, and Ellis made it in 8 out of 10.
So again, how can you say it's so hard to put a decent team on the court in Clemson??
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Hall of Famer [22395]
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Why does OP not get credit for success with our facilities
Dec 1, 2015, 9:08 AM
[ in reply to Re: Serious Question: Why do people on here "protect" brownell ] |
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and fan support, but Brownell gets to use them as a crutch that he can't seem to get rid of? Have our facilities deteriorated dramatically over the last 6 years?
Some criticism is obviously warranted for this basketball program under Coach Brownell. You guys need to learn to address that criticism instead of calling people stupid who point these issues out.
It seems to me that the one thing that has changed under Coach Brownell is our expectations have fallen dramatically.
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Legend [19697]
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OP was here when we did renovations
Dec 1, 2015, 9:27 AM
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and it helped him for several years. But 5 years later those renovations were obsolete. Same will be true this time unless we commit to the arms war in hoops the same way we have in football. By the time Brownell got here, almost every team in the league had passed us facility wise. We'll catch up next year, question is will we keep up?
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Rock Defender [54]
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Re: Serious Question: Why do people on here "protect" brownell
Dec 3, 2015, 6:40 AM
[ in reply to Re: Serious Question: Why do people on here "protect" brownell ] |
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"Mostly because of ill informed people who arent going to support hoops anyway who think Know what he should do."
Really? THAT is the reason?? Wow - and here we've been trying to figure out the problem all these years - and it is US. Not the guy we pay millions to coach. Well - that explains it I guess.
BTW: Stop skipping those classes. It's not helping with your logic.
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Letterman [285]
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Clemson Family
Dec 1, 2015, 9:04 AM
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For me it is because I "want" us to be good with the team we have. We have great student athletes that deserve our support. Disgust for the coach affects the players whether people try to avoid it or not.
Additionally it is painfully obvious that the facilities are inferior. I often question whether anyone can win here at a high enough level.
Lastly, I was very happy with Purnell and hated to see him leave. However the same people upset with Brownell criticized Purnell for not winning in the tourny. The realization that changing coaches will be bring more mediocrity is frustrating.
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Heisman Winner [140657]
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Relax Anon...
Dec 1, 2015, 9:13 AM
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It's only basketball.
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Orange Blooded [4423]
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I have openly and wholeheartedly defended him on here and
Dec 1, 2015, 9:16 AM
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to others.
With that said, my excuses for him have been the following:
1. He inherited the program in a mess after Purnell left late in the recruiting cycle- well, it has been 6 years now and that excuse has gone
2. Facilities- Well, they are rebuilding littlejohn and Coach B is getting what he wants
3. Give him time- again, its been 6 years
4. He is a defensive minded guy and it will take recruiting the right guys- this remains true but officiating is making this tough on him and he will have to make and show US adjustments to survive.
So, I will continue to support CU basketball and will make my final judgments (not that my opinion matters) at the middle of next season. We will be in Littlejohn, have 3 solid Brownell-recruited seniors, etc.
Either way, what has and continues to bother me is those on here who do nothing but make fun of and ridicule basketball like it somehow gets their rocks off to do so. Our guys work extremely hard for this university just like our football team and they deserve our support regardless of who the coach is.
Support the team! Go Tigers!
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Heisman Winner [105574]
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I support the players, I do not support the coach
Dec 1, 2015, 9:30 AM
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I will not call out any players for their play on the court. But I cannot defend Brad Brownell. He missed out on the NIT in his 5th season, which for any other program, is grounds for dismissal. However, after a recent contract extension and packing the team up to play in G-Vegas, we apparently had to give him another year or two. All this means is we're another year or two from the inevitable.
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All-In [40941]
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For the same reason they protected Bowden***
Dec 1, 2015, 9:31 AM
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110%er [5513]
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Those protecting brown-L are leftover Tommy Bowden fans
Dec 1, 2015, 9:56 AM
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Aka fans of mediocrity
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All-In [29036]
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There are some of us who are pragmatic
Dec 1, 2015, 10:06 AM
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I'm not gonna "defend" Brownell. He's the coach and I support him, but there is plenty to criticize here. Feel free to do so.
But, I do believe, and I said this when he was hired and maintain it still, tha Basketball is a different beast at Clemson. I supported Tommy Bowden as long as he was coach because that's what I do. It's a conscious choice of mine to support the coaches and let the admin make decisions. We all knew it was time for Tommy to step away, but don't let that fact blind you to the good job he did here in beginning the rebuilding process.
But back to Brownell, I saw him as the type of coach that might do well here if he could get traction and build a program. It looks like that may not happen, but pragmatically you have to give him a year in the new building barring some sort of monumental collapse this year.
I guess my main issue with your post is that you liken some folks who are trying to take a patient pragmatic view as being fans of mediocrity. Nothing could be farther for the truth (at least for me). I simply think that when all factors come into play you have to give him this year and the next to see if the new facilities along with his upperclassmen can make a difference. Maybe it doesn't and I'm certainly not willing to bet it does, but if it doesn't happen that doesn't automatically make folks who wanted to make the move earlier "right" to be calling for his head.
We'll see what happens, but it seems to be the best path this year is to try and enjoy the little victories and see if we can identify progress through the year.
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Oculus Spirit [80537]
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I wouldn't go that far. Tommy at least improved our fb team
Dec 1, 2015, 10:14 AM
[ in reply to Those protecting brown-L are leftover Tommy Bowden fans ] |
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from when he took over after the Tommy West era. Brownell took over a program that consistently went to the big dance (yes, to lose in the first round but at least we used to make it there) and hasn't even sniffed it since year 1.
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CU Guru [1146]
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Re: I wouldn't go that far. Tommy at least improved our fb team
Dec 1, 2015, 5:07 PM
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How have we not even sniffed it when we were 1 call away from going to the Tournament 2 seasons ago?
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Orange Blooded [4099]
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I think Coach Brownell is doing good this year
Dec 1, 2015, 10:36 AM
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From what I've seen, very pleasantly surprised by the teams play so far
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Orange Blooded [2519]
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OP had a good formula for Clemson
Dec 1, 2015, 10:44 AM
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get the best athletes you can, play a frenetic pace, and try to teach some basketball skill along the way.
We were comparable to UNC and Duke for a few years, and it was fun.
We are back to suckage now. We can't win playing a standard game because there are 10 teams in the ACC that can out-recruit us.
Also, we aren't very good at fundamentals and all those little things (like non-lazy passes and rebounding effort on offense) that are the hallmarks of a well-coached-team.
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Rock Defender [54]
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BINGO!!!!!!
Dec 1, 2015, 2:38 PM
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Brownell is a good recruiter if he was in the Southern Conference, not the ACC. You could argue that Shyatt brought in more talent while he was the HC, than Brownell has.
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Oculus Spirit [80537]
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Re: BINGO!!!!!!
Dec 1, 2015, 2:39 PM
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That is very depressing.
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CU Guru [1146]
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Re: BINGO!!!!!!
Dec 1, 2015, 5:06 PM
[ in reply to BINGO!!!!!! ] |
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> Brownell is a good recruiter if he was in the
> Southern Conference, not the ACC. You could argue
> that Shyatt brought in more talent while he was the
> HC, than Brownell has.
You must not have watched when Shyatt was the coach.
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Rock Defender [54]
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I never said Shyatt was a better coach
Dec 2, 2015, 7:55 AM
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I just said he brought in more talent than Brownell. Which you can argue. In no way shape or form is Shyatt a better coach than Brownell.
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CU Guru [1146]
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Re: I never said Shyatt was a better coach
Dec 2, 2015, 11:00 AM
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I realize that, and respect that. But I really, really, really don't think Shyatt brought in better talent.
We had some truly bad players. Even guys that were somehow rated decently, but they were honestly really bad. There were never any KJ's, or Blossomgame's, or Grantham's, or Nnoko's, or the transfers. Never anyone even close honestly. Ed Scott was a great player. Will Solomon was obviously good, but he was a Barnes recruit who just happened to stay after Barnes jumped ship.
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CU Medallion [65623]
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I respectfully disagree. Brownell does a good job at
Dec 2, 2015, 8:44 AM
[ in reply to OP had a good formula for Clemson ] |
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coaching all the fundamentals but the most important one. SHOOTING THE FRIGGING BALL! That goes back to talent level somewhat, but can certainly be improved with coaching. Our teams shoot abysmal percentages from the field against any good competition, sometimes failing to even get a shot off at all against the shot clock. This, more than anything else drives me nuts watching us play. And, unlike what appears to be the majority, I think BB is a good coach. I would just like to see him, just once, totally lose it and go "Gundy" or "Muschamp" on the court, just to prove he has some fire to him. Seems to be on Ritalen on the sidelines to me.
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CU Guru [1146]
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Re: I respectfully disagree. Brownell does a good job at
Dec 2, 2015, 10:58 AM
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We're averaging almost 9 3-pointers made per game so far this season.
Shooting, at least through the first 6 games, has improved. And half of those games were played over 1000 miles from home.
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Legend [15749]
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You can't compare our Basketball program to our Baseball
Dec 1, 2015, 4:13 PM
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program. Our baseball program is a long-standing tradition, with top-notch fan support and years of excellence.
Our basketball program is known for having never won the ACC (officially), never won in Chapel Hill and year-in and year-out has to compete with some of the most storied programs in college basketball.
Highest winning percentages:
1. Kentucky
2. UNC
3. Kansas
4. UNLV
5. Duke
6. UCLA
7. Syracuse
8. Western Kentucky
9. Louisville
10. St. John's
11. Illinois
12. Notre Dame
That is FIVE of the top 12 winningest programs of all time...IN ONE CONFERENCE. It's the only conference that has more than one in the top 12...AND IT HAS FIVE. Think about that competitive environment. So feel free to "demand excellence." Some of us are willing to be patient with a coach and see if they can build something for the long-haul.
Year - Purnell - Brownell
1.......9/9.......5/12
2.......9/12......7/12
3.......7/12......11/12
4.......8/12......6/15
That's not that bad, relative to Purnell. Hopefully BB can keep building. Some of us just don't want to spend every season screaming at a guy to make something happen in an admittedly difficult environment.
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Orange Blooded [4423]
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good post, but what do your numbers comparing
Dec 2, 2015, 9:20 AM
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brownell and purnell mean? i cant figure it out.
thanks
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Orange Blooded [4099]
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He was comparing Conference Standings at End Of Season ....
Dec 2, 2015, 10:03 AM
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Brownell actually doing pretty good .... always kinda in the middle of the pack .... challenge is, how do you become "leader of the pack" ... top tier ACC, not the song .....
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Legend [15749]
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Yes. Sorry, that wasn't clear. It's place in the ACC and I
Dec 3, 2015, 8:37 AM
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added the number of members since it changed a lot during the two coaches' tenures.
And yes, that was my point. He had a bad season a couple years ago but last year finished 6th out of 15 in a conference that has some tremendous programs in it.
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CU Guru [1898]
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I guess it's because it's a free country and some folks have
Dec 2, 2015, 11:11 AM
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opinions that are different from yours.
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Hall of Famer [21874]
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Re: I guess it's because it's a free country and some folks have
Dec 2, 2015, 11:14 AM
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oh deer lowered.
Did I say people couldn't have a differing opinion? I asked why....
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All-In [44063]
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I am a big Brownell fan. I "defend" him, and here's why:
Dec 2, 2015, 5:24 PM
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1. We do not have the basketball tradition of most other programs in the ACC. We can't recruit off of reputation. In fact, our poor basketball reputation, as well as our reputation as a "football school," are used against us on the recruiting trail.
2. The administrative support for basketball at Clemson is, historically, very poor no matter how you slice it. TDP paid Purnell well, and even tried to match Purnell's contract when he heard about DePaul's offer. As a huge Clemson basketball fan, that was significant to me. Thankfully, Radakovich seems to see the need to support basketball as well. This must continue, whether we keep Brownell or decide to go in a different direction.
3. Our facilities are way behind the rest of the ACC. Littlejohn Coliseum was very outdated when the renovations were done a little over a decade ago. Those improvements were done "on the cheap," as the arena improvements were a definite upgrade for the fans but not really for the players. Recruits don't care if the fans have nice new seats with little tiger paws on them or improved bathrooms in the concourse. They do care about nice locker rooms, a nice weight room, and a nice practice facility. The practice facility we added at that time wasn't even a regulation sized court, and it had to be shared with the women's team. Epic fail.
I do not know how the new facility will compare to the other schools in the ACC. My fear is that it won't even put us in the top half of the league, but at least it addresses the player experience since that is what recruits want to see. If nothing else, it will be new and shiny and it will give us something to show recruits. Up until now, we have been showing them an outdated facility. That, plus no basketball tradition, has made it very hard to sell recruits on Clemson basketball.
4. Our fans stink. I don't care what anyone says about us selling out an NIT game here and there, or having a few sellouts when Purnell was the coach. Overall, we do not consistently support the basketball team. While the team has a responsibility to play hard, and provide entertainment, fans should support the team regardless. I realize that it isn't easy to go to games when we don't play well, but if we packed Littlejohn for most of the games (and at least for the conference games), I can guarantee you recruits would be super impressed. That's what they see when they visit the other schools in the top half of the ACC. It's sad that we had to reduce the capacity at the new Littlejohn, and the fact that we did says a lot about how inconsistently (and poorly) our fans support basketball.
Aside from pathetic attendance numbers, what is most disappointing to me about our fans is the general attitude about basketball. Even a simple discussion about anything basketball related on here ALWAYS generates stupid comments. Many people here never hesitate to criticize the team, complain about Brownell, or make sarcastic comments in general about how we should be talking about football. Grow up.
I have noticed that some fans take such pride in Clemson being a "football school" that they seemingly feel scared of basketball being good. They fear that putting money toward basketball hurts football. We can't have that attitude at Clemson if we want to be successful in basketball.
5. I really like Brownell. I think he is an excellent coach, as evidenced by how successful he has been everywhere else. Clemson, as we know, is a tough job. He came here with virtually no recruiting ties to the area. In basketball, those relationships are even more important than in football. He has gradually improved recruiting over the last few years, and I am encouraged by that. Blossomgame is a great player, and Grantham has loads of potential. The recent transfers, as well as a few recent signees, have things moving in the right direction. That is encouraging to me, because we know that Brownell can get a lot out of the talent he has. I can't help but imagine how great he will do once he improves recruiting even more.
I am optimistic that Brownell will eventually turn things around, and I am willing to give him at least 1 year in the new arena before considering firing him, for the reasons mentioned above.
If and when we need a new coach, we are going to have to pay up at an unprecedented level for Clemson if we are serious about basketball. I hope we are, because I love Clemson basketball and am confident we can be a great basketball program if we devote ourselves to it. Hopefully we will.
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110%er [6687]
TigerPulse: 98%
Posts: 9747
Joined: 9/22/11
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And Holmes appears to be a change-maker - "faster pace"
Dec 3, 2015, 1:58 AM
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And we can win a game when one of the stars is having a terrible game - Grantham 1-10. It appears that Brownell has pulled in some better players in Ty Hudson, Holmes, and Legend. Plus, some of the older ones have improved their games - GO TIGERS!
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Legend [16264]
TigerPulse: 100%
Posts: 12789
Joined: 11/14/09
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Basketball talk on TNet can really bring out the goons, so
Dec 3, 2015, 12:57 AM
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it's worth standing up for someone from time to time who represents the program well and just might have the right stuff. No coach has won an ACC tournament, not to mention the big one, so ultimately there's not a high bar to compare anyone to.
Brownell has the highest conference winning percentage for a head coach in the history of Clemson basketball. Ever. Maybe it's not flashy and all together, but I've only seen this team grow over his tenure, not diminish. And sporting the best record EVER for the program in league play tells me there may be a stronger foundation in place than many people realize. With a 21st Century twist on Littlejohn and the team areas, that's only going to improve that.
He bugs me with some tempo management and not throwing chairs often enough, but I feel like when this team gets a taste for winning, they're going to be the kind of group that can win in tournaments, and that's rarefied air in Tigertown. And for the next two seasons he's our guy anyway, might as well roll with it, he just might surprise you.
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Rock Defender [54]
TigerPulse: 90%
Posts: 35
Joined: 11/30/98
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Re: Serious Question: Why do people on here "protect" brownell
Dec 3, 2015, 6:48 AM
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Another question that begs to be asked:
Does anyone think that Brownell is doing a better job than Larry Shyatt? If so, in what way?
I started posting on CLEMSON boards years ago during Larry Shyatt's years because he was the worst coach I had ever witnessed. I had to stop watching CLEMSON BBall because of what he was doing to the sport. I complained to the CLEMSON Administration, and they suggested I air my disgust on these boards. Maybe it's time to tell the CLEMSON Administration where to stick their idea as posting on these boards does not make all that much difference IMO. Brownell is another Larry Shyatt IMO and can't seem to get his team on one page ever. I start watching the game, shake my head in disbelief, and turn the channel. It's an awful representation of anything CLEMSON. It needs to change. Hey ADMIN - I'm looking at YOU. FIX IT!!
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All-In [44063]
TigerPulse: 81%
Posts: 32972
Joined: 2/22/03
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If you can't see a huge difference between a Brownell coached team
Dec 3, 2015, 7:29 AM
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and a Shyatt coached team, there is honestly no point in having this discussion with you.
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Commissioner [991]
TigerPulse: 100%
Posts: 1491
Joined: 3/6/01
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i was at Clemson during the Shyatt years
Dec 3, 2015, 7:55 AM
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Yeah, if you cant see a difference between those teams and what Brownell has then you just don't know much about basketball.
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All-TigerNet [14478]
TigerPulse: 79%
Posts: 22925
Joined: 11/30/98
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Re: Serious Question: Why do people on here "protect" brownell
Dec 3, 2015, 7:35 AM
[ in reply to Re: Serious Question: Why do people on here "protect" brownell ] |
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I complained to the CLEMSON Administration, and they suggested I air my disgust on these boards.
smfh. if anyone believes that statement i got a bunch of swampland for sale. sir, you need to find a different hobby if you truly feel that way. hard to understand how some of you people function in the real world.
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Legend [19352]
TigerPulse: 92%
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Joined: 4/25/04
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CU Guru [1146]
TigerPulse: 98%
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Joined: 11/27/14
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