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Hall of Famer [22086]
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Plant Based Diets
Dec 2, 2021, 9:48 AM
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I know the Jounge loves a solid - "turning my life around post"...so I figured I'd put my name in on one of these. This turned out to be long AF
TL;DR - Been seeing a cardiologist for past few months (all clear) and went down rabbit holes of natural remedies for heart / artery disease. Fascinating, and hard to argue, studies out there pointing to plant based diets and wanting to get your thoughts.
I've seen a cardiologist on 2 separate occasions this year. The second time followed an ambulance visit to my house (wife drove me to ER b/c I'm a cheap ####). After some medical hem-hawing, they wanted to run me through the gauntlet of test to see what's going on. Got the all clear the Wennsdee before Thanksgiving. So that's good.
From my visit in early Oct, until last Wednesday though, I was obviously hella stressed. What was causing a 32 year old, who's still in decent shape, to go to the ####### heart doctor? My diet for the past 10 or so years (I thought) has been very good. Wife and I cook nearly every meal...all from fresh veggies, meats, cheeses, etc.
Having weird chest pains, weird left arm sensations, this early in life though freaked me the #### out. So I started poking around the web to see what all is out there. I stumbled upon a book, written by Dr Essylten Jr. called "Prevent And Reverse Heart Disease: The Revolutionary, Scientifically Proven, Nutrition-Based Cure". Cruised through the book in one night.
I've told my wife that reading this book has had the same impact on me as seeing my first automated distribution center. Complete paradigm shift.
What I appreciate is how the doc formulated the hypothesis by starting from an epidemiological perspective. A stat such as the United States contains 5% of the worlds population, but over 60% of the heart disease cases. I'm sorry, what? Heart disease is the leading cause of death in this country...didn't know that either. Sitting in a cardiologist waiting room at Vandy, I can see it too. Like...#### this. Not going out like this ######## when I know I got a loaded barrel w/ neurological issues.
So then he gets into the biochemistry of the Western diet. The affect of the high fat % and animal proteins has on the body - in particular the arteries - blew my ####### mind. Cases of marathon runners, Ironman competitors, fit and active folks...having heart attacks? That is contrary to every piece of information I (personally) have been led to believe, right?
He has clinical studies with patients who have reversed heart disease issues by sticking to this diet. Essentially his theory is to get your cholesterol below 150. Yet none of the major cardiology centers that I've researched lead with this as a treatment.
I'm also a little biased to tin-foil, #### Big Pharma rhetoric...and he has a great chapter ripping the medical establishment a new ####### for their current recommendations and their modern approaches to fixing the heart disease symptoms (stents, meds, bypasses, etc.). For example, according to his research, 1 in 3 heart attacks happen in individuals with cholesterol levels under the 200 threshold set by the government (Idk who the #### sets this, but you get my point), but still above the 150 he saw in other cultures with no heart problems.
So I've started to give it a whirl. I haven't cut out all animal proteins. My theory is to target proteins from animals low in fat (chicken, turkey, venison, and recently have been studying bison) while also continuing to eat fish once or twice a week. My premise is that human beings have survived for millennia surviving off the land, which includes eating meat when needed. Not saying I'm discounting his study, just saying (and hoping) my situation is not that dire (which my latest visits and results have indicated).
I've also read Tom Brady's book. Dude eats 80% plant based food, 20% animal protein (chicken and fish). So I think there's something to this.
The biggest thing I've given up right off the bat is all dairy and oils...and eggs (miss eggs). I've cut out beef and pork as well, which sucks b/c I have a #### near freezer full. My intent is to eat these treats (primarily steak) on very special occasions (despite the clinical data showing this is still very harmful to folks more susceptible to heart disease).
So if you've made it this far - I'm curious if there's any of you who try to emulate something similar. I've been in this a week, and I can already tell a difference. The random pains in my chest and left arm have already subsided (granted, these could've been psychological b/c I thought I had a problem, I don't know).
It really sucks. My smoker is now pretty much a decoration now, and most of my "favorite" foods are more or less out of the normal rotation for what I can eat. I've found some solid cook books through TB12's book, this doc's book, and surprisingly his son wrote a book as well.
I'll have some solid data following my physical next year. I might try to schedule an interim blood test to see what the effects are and discern if I need to make any adjustments.
If any y'all have experience w/ this, or do this voluntarily, I'm on the lookout for some solid pro tips.
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Oculus Spirit [79006]
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you can smoke mushrooms***
Dec 2, 2021, 9:50 AM
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Oculus Spirit [83205]
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Are you Jeff Sessions?***
Dec 2, 2021, 10:34 AM
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Oculus Spirit [79006]
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I hated that guy***
Dec 2, 2021, 11:15 AM
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Heisman Winner [105934]
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Greenr cut out red meat a few years ago, occasionally eat
Dec 2, 2021, 10:10 AM
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a burger when going out or eat some vegetable soup. Maybe red meat twice a month. The rest of the time, it is chicken or turkey. I rarely eat dairy anymore either. Almond milk is a good substitute for that. I probably haven't had a steak in 4-5 months. And I always felt crappy after eating it.
You had steak night like twice a week, right? Cutting out red meat might help you alot. Plant based diets are great, but I'm not sure I could follow one.
Eggs and oils are a must in my house.
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All-In [40657]
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I feel like shid after eating steak now
Dec 2, 2021, 10:16 AM
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Like diarrhea a few hours later EVERY SINGLE TIME. So I am typically in the bathroom for half an hour around two or three in the morning. Ive noticed that if I eat a filet or a cut with less fat on it, I am better off, but I prefer the taste of the fat in a ribeye.
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Hall of Famer [22086]
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All-In [40657]
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For lent last year I cut out meat during the week
Dec 2, 2021, 10:10 AM
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basically after watching "The Gamechangers". I felt much better. More alert and awake. Less groggy. Went back to eating meat during the week once lent was over with nearly zero thought behind it. We typically don't have red meat during the week and the meals we typically eat are "fresh" enough and contain vegetables. Unlike you, I have cut out a lot (not all) eggs from my diet because my kid eats eggs every weekend morning. I am to the point that if I even smell a scrambled egg, I lose my appetite.
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Oculus Spirit [81388]
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I watched some plant-only diet special on Netflix once.
Dec 2, 2021, 10:13 AM
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It had all these people with all these ailments, and they blamed them all on eating meat. They all quit eating meat, fish and chicken and all of a sudden the infirmed could walk, lupus when into remission, they got smarter etc. I figure I'd give it a try.
I tried it for the first 2 months of 2019, I ate only salad, beans, rice etc. Once again, as it goes for me on these miracle, life-changing lifestyle changes, I could tell absolutely no difference in how I felt. In total, I lost about 8 lbs. I attribute most of that to being so tired of eating salads that I just wouldn't eat dinner. My cholesterol did come down, but health wise I could tell no difference. I wasn't ready to climb a mountain, I still had my tinnitus, I didn't turn into Popeye on spinach.
The biggest difference that I did notice was that I was really, really, really tired of soup and salad.
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Hall of Famer [24517]
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Right. The different experiences - yours vs others - perhaps
Dec 2, 2021, 10:29 AM
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highlights the role of individual body chemistry. High risk people probably are and feel healthier on a plant based or low-red-meat diet. Low risk people might not notice much difference.
I have headaches almost every day. A celebrex each day solves that. The guy across the street won't notice any difference by taking one.
Living healthier longer is a great thing, and I try to do that, but I try to not make more of it than it is: the death rate remains 100%. At 66, I'm like the guy who said on his Tinder account: Benefit of dating me: "You won't have to wonder what I'll be like when I age. I'm there", so I'm looking at this realistically. I eat decent, keep weight okay - which all by itself determines diet to some extent - I exercise ... and found something else to worry about. In one of my annual physicals the doc is going to say, "I have bad news." I hope its not this time, but its close enough that I have to decide to not worry about it. The good news is, this isn't home.
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Oculus Spirit [81388]
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My wife actually makes sure that we
Dec 2, 2021, 10:37 AM
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eat pretty healthy anyway, so what you say may have merit. We eat a fair amount of chicken, but not much red meat anyway--maybe once a month or less. We don't eat a lot of junk, and she won't keep any junk food (or very little) in the house. If I ever want to eat potato chips, I have to go get them. The worst meal of my day is usually when I go buy lunch.
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Hall of Famer [24517]
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Same here. Steaks became, I don't know, just too much.
Dec 2, 2021, 10:44 AM
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Too expensive, too much trouble, etc. We love making pizza, so that mostly took the place of steak night about 20 years ago. But that might bring us back full circle. The kids gave me an Ooni pizza oven for christmas, so I made an outdoor stand for it from rock/brick, so it lives there permanently now. Super easy to use, gets to 1000 degrees in 15 minutes and very little effort. Friday is pizza night again, and I'm thinking of trying an iron skillet steak in it just for fun. I want it to be great, but I sorta don't. Been fine without steak for years.
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Oculus Spirit [81388]
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I can't do pizza any more.
Dec 2, 2021, 10:51 AM
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Because I'm in IT, there have always been nights (or weeks) of VERY long hours, that are extremes of days on end as we have to "get a system back up immediately" kind of thing. When this happens it seems everyone wants to buy pizza to "keep the troops happy" as my boss used to say. I used to joke that if someone gave me a filet mignon every time we had to work late I'd prob be tired of that, too.
But after a couple decades working long hours and being fed pizza..I don't care if I ever eat pizza again; it just reminds me of work, and none of it tastes good to me. If I eat pizza once a year now its one too many times.
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Hall of Famer [22086]
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going all plant based seems like a last resort to me
Dec 2, 2021, 10:34 AM
[ in reply to I watched some plant-only diet special on Netflix once. ] |
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the folks in this guys study were all critical level of heart disease, and all but one of the patients reversed their issues. the one guy passed away of alternate causes I think.
plus I just don't buy that all meats are bad. there's a lot of cultures in SE Asia that live well beyond western life expectancies with a lot of fish in their diet, for example.
researching bison as an alternative to beef looks promising as well. it only contains slightly more fat than venison, which is better than most chicken.
a lot of the problems as well seem to stem from the modern commercial farming practices...and not to go down that rabbit hole...but it definitely seems to have some merit.
I'm going down the road of following TB12's approach - at a high level - plus this doc of cutting out dairy and oils. we ate a lot of dairy, and I used the #### out of some olive oil. essentially i'm trying to keep my % of caloric intake from fat around 15%, which is hard AF
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Hall of Famer [24517]
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Tangent, but I ordered some bison ribs on a lark. Oh yeah,
Dec 2, 2021, 10:36 AM
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was a good decision. I see possibilities there.
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Oculus Spirit [81388]
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Hall of Famer [22086]
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Exactly
Dec 2, 2021, 10:52 AM
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and that was kind of my point. certain biochemical makeups found in humans are more susceptible to these problems. it is what it is.
but there's also pretty sound data that says x, y, and z significantly increase your risk and catalyze your timeline for problems. my intent is to mitigate what I can control from an experimental approach and see what happens.
what's weird is my family has zero complications from this. no one has had heart problems or died from heart problems. everyone's been Alzheimer's.
the doctor's one hypothesis is that we might be seeing an explosion (he hinted they're already seeing it) of cardiovascular problems coming about from typical low risk people that have had covid (which I have).
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Hall of Famer [22086]
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clarification - the last line was what my doctor said***
Dec 2, 2021, 10:55 AM
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Oculus Spirit [81388]
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Thats my concern with those who tell me how much better
Dec 2, 2021, 11:00 AM
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"natural immunity" is for Covid than the vaccine.
That necessarily means I have to get Covid first...and suffer through whatever the disease may or may not leave behind. I think I'd rather just take the shot.
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Oculus Spirit [81388]
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Definitely I think its prudent to mitigate what risks you
Dec 2, 2021, 10:58 AM
[ in reply to Exactly ] |
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can, where you can.
Smoking and drinking and eating greasy hamburgers every day won't help anyone to live longer or more healthy. My theory is genetics plays a much bigger part in our health especially in later life, than anything else. But a person can always make their health worse though.
It's odd that your family has no history of heart disease but a history of Alzheimer's. I always understood those two to be linked at the hip; I guess that's not the rule I thought it to be.
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CU Medallion [55927]
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APM followed "Eat to Live" for years. Healthiest I've ever
Dec 2, 2021, 10:17 AM
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been, best I've ever felt.
Due to circumstances, I am no longer vegan, but am probably 70% vegan and 90% "nutritarian".
To give you an idea of the benefits, I cut out sweets and booze in the run up to going down to Sakerlina for Thanksgiving, knowing I'd eat bad for me stuff while there.
Here's the thing - it felt so good I am back on the wagon except for my planned holiday parties.
Also, you may remember from my colonoscopy tales, despite a family history of colon cancer, doc said mine was clean as a whistle and just come back in 10 years. I'm 54.
TL;DR - APM is a big fan but unless you EXPERIENCE the benefits of clean eating, you'll never embrace it.
Just buy "Eat to Live" and do what that book says. That's all you need.
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Hall of Famer [22086]
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I'll add that to the collection
Dec 2, 2021, 10:28 AM
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thanks bro
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CU Medallion [55927]
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One bit of advice if I may: Go All In.
Dec 2, 2021, 10:35 AM
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If you can tolerate the short withdrawal period from processed foods, meat, etc., and really focus on green smoothies, huge salads, fruits, nuts, etc. in the beginning, you'll feel the benefits a lot quicker. I shed pounds like crazy back when we first started. And then when the clear-headedness, increased energy, good sleep, etc. kick in, you won't want to go back. People forget what it's like to feel good.
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Oculus Spirit [83205]
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I'm much older than you, eat pretty much what I want, and
Dec 2, 2021, 10:30 AM
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exercise. I do take a baby aspirin every night before bed to thin out the blood somewhat.
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Hall of Famer [22086]
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the numbers are in your favor, for sure
Dec 2, 2021, 10:41 AM
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I think 1 in 4 deaths are from heart disease in the US? So you have a 75% chance of not dying from heart or artery related problems. Had I not been to a cardiologist at this time, even though it turned out that everything is "fine", I would've never changed a thing.
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110%er [7030]
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Man, that would be really, really hard to do.
Dec 2, 2021, 10:34 AM
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I'm about your age and wish you the best. If it addresses your health concerns it would be worth it, especially with you having a young child. But I don't think I could cut out pork, beef, or eggs.
In the past, I've tried some of the fad diets (I'm not saying that is what you are doing). I felt great on Whole30 and low carb/no sugar. I felt awful on Keto. We've settled into a routine where we eat primarily fresh or low processed foods with fewer processed carbs and very few sweets. The main exceptions are when we travel or need something quick (frozen lasagna, stir fry, etc.). Even that is tough because I have a big sweet tooth. But it helps me feel less sluggish and I've maintained a decent weight despite not exercising the way I should.
Good on you for exploring the options and trying to improve your health. I hope it works out.
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Oculus Spirit [82021]
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Since you said you miss eggs, you could try this, I've seen
Dec 2, 2021, 10:37 AM
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ads for it: https://www.ju.st/eat/just-eggScrambles like an egg. Fluffs like an egg. Makes omelets and French toast like an egg. Tastes even better than an egg.
More power to you and goodluck!!
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Hall of Famer [22086]
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pro
Dec 2, 2021, 10:48 AM
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tip
thanks bro
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Oculus Spirit [82021]
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Also, if you do try it, please let me know your review.
Dec 2, 2021, 10:56 AM
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Because if I ever cut out eggs, I want to know there's a good enough substitute.
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All-In [49212]
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I have concerns that this is like the beyond meat stuff...
Dec 2, 2021, 11:04 AM
[ in reply to Since you said you miss eggs, you could try this, I've seen ] |
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yeah, it tastes pretty good and mimics the mouth feel of a real burger and everything, but how much did you have to process that soybean to turn it into this?
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Oculus Spirit [82021]
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Good question, I dunno.
Dec 2, 2021, 11:08 AM
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Ingredients: Water, Mung Bean Protein Isolate, Expeller-Pressed Canola Oil, Contains less than 2% of Calcium Citrate, Enzyme, Gellan Gum, Natural Carrot Extractives (color), Natural Flavors, Natural Turmeric Extractives (color), Onion Puree, Salt, Soy Lecithin, Sugar, Tetrasodium Pyrophosphate, Preservatives (Nisin, Potassium Sorbate).
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Hall of Famer [24372]
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Re: Plant Based Diets
Dec 2, 2021, 10:37 AM
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I think cutting down on meat and bad carbs is huge. It takes a lot of energy to digest beef. I do think some omega 3 rich fish is good for you. Bad carbs was my big problem. Since I've made a major reduction in carbs, I have felt a lot more energetic and have lost some belly.
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All-In [38514]
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Complex carbs are great, simple carbs are horrible,***
Dec 2, 2021, 11:11 AM
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All-In [48213]
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Examples of each, or link?***
Dec 2, 2021, 11:16 AM
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Lot o points [156283]
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I'm no expert, but I am led to believe that bachelor
Dec 2, 2021, 10:41 AM
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parties with Colombia's finest party favors don't help the heart much at all either. You gotta cut out the droogz.
P.S. Did you say Vandy? ANCHOR DOWN!!!!!
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Hall of Famer [22086]
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lol - I haven't done cheese in probably 5 years
Dec 2, 2021, 10:43 AM
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and have zero interest in doing it again. shrooms and grass are where it's at man, gotta grow from the ground. learnt that lesson the hard way
but agreed, prolonged usage of colombian bam bam certainly didn't help my case
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All-In [44075]
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I'm personally on a seafood diet.
Dec 2, 2021, 10:59 AM
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SEE FOOD AND EAT IT LOL!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
For realz though, I do know some peeps on plant based diets. Know how I know? THEY TOLD ME. I can't see it being a bad thing, so go for it if you want.
I will say though they they are literally the sickest people I know. And they are in GREAT SHAPE. Like elite athlete type shape (one is a professional).
They get sick all the time. They have kids that are also plant-based and sick. All. Of. The. Time. Allergic to everything. Miss more days of school than any kids I know.
All of this to the point that they've started introducing meat to the kid's diets and it's actually helping.
Take this FWIW. I ain't judging, just passing along anecdotal pendejadas.
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Lot o points [156283]
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I BET U GOT DICKDOO'S DISEASE!!!!!***
Dec 2, 2021, 10:59 AM
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Heisman Winner [105934]
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Dunlap's Disease
Dec 2, 2021, 11:01 AM
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His belly dunlapped his belt
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All-In [44075]
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I try to help this man out and ya'll SHAME ME?
Dec 2, 2021, 11:26 AM
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SMDMFH AT YOU MCPOOPY FART MCPANTSERS!
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CU Medallion [55927]
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Not true (mostly) for me.
Dec 2, 2021, 11:18 AM
[ in reply to I'm personally on a seafood diet. ] |
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When I was strictly vegan I had fewer colds and no major illnesses. BUT. The one time I did get sick, it took me longer to recover. I could not drink enough salty drinks (Gatorade, etc.) and just did not have the energy I needed to recover. My guess is it had something to do with lacking meat-based nutrients like iron and B vitamins and lacking fat reserves to store energy.
So it is possible that someone who only eats like that and is sick-prone could struggle more.
I have some uber-religious friends who take the lifestyle to the next level and they are so skinny they struggle when they get sick.
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All-In [44075]
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Foller up for the Dawg:
Dec 2, 2021, 11:28 AM
[ in reply to I'm personally on a seafood diet. ] |
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If you wanted my advice I'd say make small and incremental changes that are sustainable. Straight up plant based is radical IMO.
Kill off the red meat, cut back on other meat, stop the droogs y drinking y smoking, work out if you don't already, and cut back on packaged foods.
I'd start there.
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Hall of Famer [22086]
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that's kind of what we're doing
Dec 2, 2021, 11:36 AM
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i quit drinking heavily a while ago, don't smoke (haven't sparked up in a while either), no powder drugs, hardly eat any packaged food, work out fairly regularly.
we ate a #### ton of red meat and pork. cutting that. and cutting dairy and oil. and eggs. That's pretty much the start, and like tdrake said, inverting the plate. just loading up more veggies and getting more selective w/ the protein. pretty much what TB12 is doin
which I actually said this is what I wanted to try before reading TB12's book.
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All-In [49212]
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I am making a bunch of changes right now outside diet...
Dec 2, 2021, 11:00 AM
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but I will be getting into diet soon. I already eat very little red meat compared to my years past. I am bad with cheese, but have been much better even with that. But I need to work in more raw and fresh vegetables for sure.
Good luck.
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All-In [38514]
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Cheese is my weakness.
Dec 2, 2021, 11:12 AM
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I think it has its benefits, but it is difficult not to just pile it onto most meals.
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All-In [38514]
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This book is controversial in cardiac circles.
Dec 2, 2021, 11:09 AM
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Some swear by it, others think it's largely hogwash.
Is the western diet bad? Sure, largely due to processed foods. (Check out the French Paradox)
Do we eat too much meat and not enough veggies? Absolutely.
Are plant based diets healthier? Yes, but not necessarily due to the diet being plant based. People who follow a strict diet like a plant based diet make good decisions and are concerned about nutrition. When compared to meat eaters it includes people who eat whatever and aren't concerned about their health.
Endurance athletes aren't more prone to heart attacks but are just more likely to trigger one due to using their hearts. An endurance athlete can have a heart attack based on issues that would go undetected much longer in a sedentary person.
With the help of statins my total cholesterol is below 150 and I eat meat. Could I eat meat without statins and be below 150? Don't know but I believe I'd be close as my HDL is the same or higher than my LDL.
But I've inverted my plate almost 3 years ago and decreased my meat consumption and increased my fruit and vegtable consumption and it's not uncommon for me to only eat meat once a day. I always planned a meal based on the meat and tossed veggies on the side as a necessary evil. Now meals are much more about how to prepare and season veggies and complement them with a smaller portion of meat on the side.
And I found that saturated fats are the only thing that needs to be tracked (except for things like nuts that are high in saturated fats and should be eaten daily).
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Hall of Famer [22086]
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this is kind of where I'm at
Dec 2, 2021, 11:33 AM
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which is why I'm not all in. I think there are some solid points and easily provable benefits to increasing your daily caloric intake from plant based foods.
Your nut statement, for example...this book says their horrible b/c of the fat. I don't buy that. I'll still eat nuts. I'm still going to eat meat b/c I like it and it's a great source of protein and humans have been doing it for thousands of years. Cutting out the stuff high in saturated fat, to your point, seems like a fair compromise to me.
Just trying to get smarter and look at food intake from a different perspective than my pants are too tight, for example.
But I really like your statement of inverting the plate. That's kind of what I'm tracking towards now that the meats that I want to eat have been limited. I'm stealing that so thanks brah
The paradigm shift for me was just the prevalence of these problems, particularly in the west. I was just ignorant to the fact that this was such a widespread problem in this country.
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Oculus Spirit [85963]
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Joined: 5/21/14
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After reading all of this, I can't help but wonder
Dec 2, 2021, 11:18 AM
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what do Chinese kids eat for breakfast?
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CU Medallion [56284]
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Re: Plant Based Diets
Dec 2, 2021, 11:37 AM
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Orange Blooded [4114]
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Re: Plant Based Diets
Dec 2, 2021, 8:32 PM
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That's cool.
Everyone is going to die of something.
What's the life expectancy in the US compared to other countries?
Would the people in other countries die of heart disease if they lived as long as Americans did and didn't die earlier due to something else we have prevented?
Not saying you are wrong, but look at the Asian diets because if you are looking for life expectancy whatever they are doing in Asia seems to work if you really think it's just diet. That's generally a bowl of rice, vegetables, and a small amount of meat/fish (if any).
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CU Medallion [55927]
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Joined: 11/30/98
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Oh. Almost forgot one more benefit: Rock hard erections.***
Dec 2, 2021, 8:36 PM
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