Replies: 58
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110%er [6153]
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Sweden vs Norway in Attitude toward Covid-19. Interesting!
Apr 17, 2020, 11:11 AM
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While Norway instituted a strict model patterned after China, Sweden reportedly has done practically nothing to directly combat Corona virus.
According to reports both countries have experienced basically the same results thus far.
Given this ... Is it fair to ask the question regarding the USA —
Has any of what we’ve gone through here actually been worth the consequences??
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Associate AD [842]
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110%er [6153]
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Are Sweden’s hospitals being overwhelmed? If not, then
Apr 17, 2020, 11:35 AM
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then “flattening the curve” serves no real purpose. It just serves to stretch the problem out over a longer period.
Reports say Sweden’s health services have been and remain fine.
If the health services are not overwhelmed, probably best not to worry about “when” people get it ...
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Associate AD [842]
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I know it is easy to blow off projections,
Apr 17, 2020, 11:53 AM
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but look at Sweden's projected future.
Around the first week of May, they are projected to have a need for 17,500 beds with 4,500 being ICU beds. They have 1,808 beds with 79 being ICU beds available.
https://covid19.healthdata.org/swedenIHME | COVID-19 Projections Explore hospital bed use, need for intensive care beds, and ventilator use due to COVID-19 based on projected deaths
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110%er [6153]
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I guess we’ll see ... in a couple of weeks.
Apr 17, 2020, 12:00 PM
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Judging from previous model rejections, we will probably see a fraction of this prediction come true.
At least we don’t have to wait long one way or the other.
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All-In [40936]
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CU Guru [1020]
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Where did you read that Norway & Sweden have experienced
Apr 17, 2020, 12:10 PM
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the same results thus far?
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110%er [6153]
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Re: Where did you read that Norway & Sweden have experienced
Apr 17, 2020, 1:17 PM
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I heard it on TV. It has to be true, no? ??
Sources were cited, but I don’t have them available.
Is there a reason to be skeptical?
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110%er [7219]
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Re: Where did you read that Norway & Sweden have experienced
Apr 17, 2020, 2:59 PM
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It's not even close to true. There's lies, #### lies, and statistics. You can paint stats to support any argument, depending on how you present them.
This is not deniable- Norway's peak was 386 new cases in a day on 3/27. The last 3 days they have averaged 98 new cases per day, or about 25% of the peak. Isolation takes at least 2 weeks to blunt the rate of new cases, and the curve shows that.
Sweden, on the other hand, peaked at 726 on 4/8. Let's assume there has been some self quarantine from the smarter parts of that citizenship. The last 3 days Sweden has averaged 531 new cases, or 73% of the peak.
Nothing about this looks "about equal". Far from it.
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110%er [6153]
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Re: Where did you read that Norway & Sweden have ...
Apr 17, 2020, 4:49 PM
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I guess the main issue is ... will Sweden end up appreciably worse than Norway when all is said for having put no major restrictions in place.
When all is said and done, will more Swedes end up dead than Norwegians from Covid-19.
Every other statistic is irrelevant.
I know flattening the curve was the goal at first in order to avoid overloading the hospitals, but if that’s not actually happening in Sweden (and hasn’t happened here to any great degree) then it’s possible that our severe restrictions may have been an over-reaction.
Just food for thought since even he “experts” can’t seem to agree on anything.
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110%er [7219]
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Re: Where did you read that Norway & Sweden have ...
Apr 17, 2020, 5:20 PM
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Sweden will have far more deaths, because Rendesivir is about to seriously blunt the mortality of this illness, as I have been saying for over 2 weeks now.
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Legend [15492]
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Re: Where did you read that Norway & Sweden have ...
Apr 17, 2020, 8:30 PM
[ in reply to Re: Where did you read that Norway & Sweden have ... ] |
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In fairness, your proposition is underpinned by the idea that mitigation isn't necessary so we should all just go back to work.
The evidence contradicts that proposition. Without everyone staying home and social distancing it appears obvious that more people would become infected.
I get that conservative media wants to "free Michigan" and try to characterize this situation as being uncalled for. They are, like Trump, willing to risk people's lives in order to help Trump get reelected.
Dr. Fauici said that this virus was the "most efficient in its ability to transmit from one person to another we've ever seen ."
In other words, let's risk your conservative media's families first, then we'll see if we go out.
The politicization of death is a new low for American culture.
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110%er [7219]
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Re: Where did you read that Norway & Sweden have ...
Apr 17, 2020, 8:36 PM
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“The politicization of death is a new low for American culture.”
It seems like you are doing that very thing in your post....
“In other words, let's risk your conservative media's families first, then we'll see if we go out.”
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Legend [15492]
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Re: Where did you read that Norway & Sweden have ...
Apr 17, 2020, 9:01 PM
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It's called a "rejoinder".
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110%er [7219]
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Re: Where did you read that Norway & Sweden have ...
Apr 17, 2020, 9:16 PM
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That’s subjective.
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Orange Blooded [3617]
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Re: I'd take that risk
Apr 18, 2020, 1:25 PM
[ in reply to Re: Where did you read that Norway & Sweden have ... ] |
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Conservatives are self-reliant. All they want is the freedom to take their own risks and trust their own safety nets.
But we are not being allowed to. We are being told that working puts other people at risk. So my freedom to life, liberty and pursuit of happiness endangers the collective, therefore I must give it up.
Coronavirus has become a boogeyman. Is he as scary as they say, or not? Like a shark sighting at the beach. How do you know when it's safe to go back in the water? Can any part of the beach be reopened before the whole thing is? Can we trust our lifeguards when both sides are using the danger as a power struggle?
Most of us grudgingly gave up some freedom because the experts said we needed to. But when do we get it back? They have no plan, and challenge the authority of the President to restore the freedoms he grudgingly took away.
"Is life so dear, or peace so sweet, as to be purchased at the price of chains and slavery? Forbid it, almighty God! I know not what course others may take, but as for me, give me liberty or give me death!"--Patrick Henry, 1773
"The politicization of death is a new low for the American culture. " Really?
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Athletic Dir [881]
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You sound like a real conservative, refreshing
Apr 20, 2020, 12:36 AM
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A lot of people throw the word around and don't have any idea what it means.
Voted for Reagan twice, shook his hand once. Wish we had him now.
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110%er [7555]
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Re: Where did you read that Norway & Sweden have ...
Apr 18, 2020, 9:44 PM
[ in reply to Re: Where did you read that Norway & Sweden have ... ] |
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Felix why can’t you just leave politics out of it for once......enough with your constant never ending BS......it would make your life more pleasant and definitely make ours here on TigerNet much better not to have to read this crap from you all the frigging time we are on here..........Go Tigers!!!!!!
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Trainer [42]
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Re: Where did you read that Norway & Sweden have ...
Apr 19, 2020, 11:31 AM
[ in reply to Re: Where did you read that Norway & Sweden have ... ] |
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H1N1 was pretty contagious. 700,000,000 to 1,200,000,000 infected worldwide. They stopped counting so who knows the true total and the media didnt count every death as an H1N1 death. Run over by a car, corona. Thrown off a horse, corona. Stroke, corona. Heart attack, corona. Hit by a train, corona. Hospice with cancer, corona. Shark attack, corona. We will never know the true death toll because of the media.
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Athletic Dir [881]
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That H1N1 strain is still circulating
Apr 20, 2020, 12:27 AM
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I think it's been one of the three or four in the flu vaccine each year, but not sure. CDC estimates 75k US deaths through 2018, but it was only 8k-18k during the pandemic phase.
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Orange Blooded [2112]
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Athletic Dir [881]
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Sweden has 1400 deaths, Norway has 161
Apr 17, 2020, 5:17 PM
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110%er [7219]
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Athletic Dir [881]
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Orange Blooded [2112]
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Legend [16921]
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Re: Where did you read that Norway & Sweden have experienced
Apr 18, 2020, 12:23 AM
[ in reply to Re: Where did you read that Norway & Sweden have experienced ] |
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If you’re gonna play jr epidemiologist you might want to note the fact that Sweden has more than twice the population of Norway in roughly 70% of the land area of Norway. So comparing numerators is pretty meaningless.
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All-TigerNet [10822]
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we will never know for sure.
Apr 17, 2020, 12:19 PM
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There’s an obvious correlation of proximity of people and spreading of the virus so...
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110%er [6153]
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Re: we will never know for sure.
Apr 17, 2020, 1:18 PM
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Is Norway significantly more populated than Sweden?
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All-TigerNet [10822]
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I’m talking about China and NYC***
Apr 17, 2020, 3:08 PM
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Athletic Dir [881]
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Norway is smaller than Sweden
Apr 17, 2020, 5:12 PM
[ in reply to Re: we will never know for sure. ] |
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But you shouldn't try to compare either to the US. On the whole, they are far healthier and far better educated. You just don't see obese people on the streets, and their high schools are almost equivalent to a general college education here.
So you get fewer high risk people under 65 and almost nobody who thinks it's a hoax.
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Orange Blooded [2663]
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Re: Sweden vs Norway in Attitude toward Covid-19. Interesting!
Apr 17, 2020, 5:53 PM
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well, a million or so of us haven't died needlessly, so yes, I would say the 10% hit in my portfolio has been worth me not dying.
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110%er [6153]
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Re: Sweden vs Norway in Attitude toward Covid-19. Interesting!
Apr 17, 2020, 7:07 PM
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What has your portfolio got to do with millions of people being out of work?
Isn’t that sort of selfish?
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Orange Blooded [2663]
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Re: Sweden vs Norway in Attitude toward Covid-19. Interesting!
Apr 17, 2020, 7:22 PM
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my portfolio is down because millions of people are out of work. that connection doesn't seem that hard to make!
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110%er [7219]
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Re: Sweden vs Norway in Attitude toward Covid-19. Interesting!
Apr 17, 2020, 7:31 PM
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Only down 10% means you are way ahead.
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110%er [6153]
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Re: Sweden vs Norway in Attitude toward Covid-19. Interesting!
Apr 17, 2020, 10:13 PM
[ in reply to Re: Sweden vs Norway in Attitude toward Covid-19. Interesting! ] |
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Millions of people are out of work because the reaction to the Coronavirus cost them their jobs.
They are unemployed. They do not have jobs. This was not true six weeks ago.
Meanwhile the market has been up then down then up again and is currently in no way reflecting the disastrous unemployment situation.
Your portfolio is actually relatively safe largely because the American people do not believe our government will let the economy tank.
We have had to print money in order to send financial help to the millions of those who have lost their jobs.
Be happy you have a “portfolio” to worry about. Be glad you’re not thinking about this months rent and your utility bill.
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Orange Blooded [3617]
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Re: Sweden vs Norway in Attitude toward Covid-19. Interesting!
Apr 17, 2020, 6:18 PM
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If they stay the course, Sweden's response--or lack of it--will be a role model for epidemiology for generations.
But we won't know for several years whether it will be a positive model or a negative one, because it will take that long for the virus to run its course globally so we can compare the results.
They are trying to weather the pandemic in only one major wave, and counting on their relative health, health care, youth and semi-distancing culture to keep that wave as minimal as possible while building herd immunity.
They are expecting a higher percentage of fatalities in this first wave, so if their numbers are low, give it time. Last week they were #14 in fatalities but they are climbing steadily.
The determining factor will probably be a medical breakthrough. If antibody testing or a drug treatment comes online that greatly mitigates the damage of the next couple waves, the rest of the world made the better choice by "flattening the curve." (Realistically we had no choice.) But if we're shutting down the world for 4-6 weeks each of the next 4-5 years because we never found a breakthrough, you might want to move to Sweden during the offseason.
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110%er [7219]
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Re: Sweden vs Norway in Attitude toward Covid-19. Interesting!
Apr 18, 2020, 11:14 AM
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Interesting take.
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Head Coach [781]
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No. It's not worth it and I think we've turned into wussies
Apr 17, 2020, 8:03 PM
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They have created hysteria and possibly a great depression. Not to mention a great mental depression bc people are eventually are going to start losing their home and cars. I ask would you rather go through something worse than 2008-09 or have less than a 1% chance of dying from something that you're probably not going to get?
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Athletic Dir [881]
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I hate to say it, but your attitude will change when you
Apr 17, 2020, 8:57 PM
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eventually know somebody who catches it. Small states and rural areas have a false sense of safety right now, but if they reopen early, how much impact will they have on the economy anyway? Versus prolonging the pandemic?
Like a few drops in a big pond. SC is 1% of US GDP, and 14% of that is tourism.
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110%er [6153]
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If we really want to ignore economics and save lives we will
Apr 17, 2020, 10:28 PM
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we will immediately shut down the entire TOBACCO INDUSTRY !
I understand this is sort of an aside to the topic at hand, but it has a definite parallel to the philosophy of shutting down the economy to save lives.
Cancer is the number one cause of death in the USA and lung cancer is almost entirely avoidable.
And yet the idea of risking the economic consequences of shutting down the entire tobacco industry once and for all is not even considered a remote possibility.
I’m just saying that if we can shut down the entire economy to save lives, why not shut down a small portion to save even more?
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Athletic Dir [881]
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I've made a lot of money over the years on tobacco stocks
Apr 17, 2020, 10:54 PM
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and own historical tobacco land, but that industry isn't all that important to the US anymore after the end of the allotment system. It can go.
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Athletic Dir [881]
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All-In [40936]
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110%er [6153]
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Re: Except that you will find out that lung cancer like
Apr 20, 2020, 3:07 PM
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Okay, but ... Shouldn’t the deaths of lung cancer patients be worth the sacrifice of the industry most directly responsible?
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Orange Blooded [3617]
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Re: I hate to say it, but your attitude will change when you
Apr 18, 2020, 12:49 PM
[ in reply to I hate to say it, but your attitude will change when you ] |
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People who live in those small states and rural areas are losing their livelihoods because of a problem in the big states and urban areas.
If their income is irrelevant to GDP but not irrelevant to their own future, the governors should be letting them work under certain protocols.
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Athletic Dir [881]
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Most people are still working
Apr 18, 2020, 2:15 PM
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But what I said before still applies. People in small states and rural areas have a false sense of safety right now. They just haven't crossed paths with enough infected people yet for the numbers in the boondocks to rise, but they will eventually.
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Legend [16330]
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im curious as to how many had it
Apr 17, 2020, 11:26 PM
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back in december over here and just didnt know..was reading an interesting article tonight about a homeless shelter in boston..that factored in with that study stanford put out later today..id wager that the virus has been here since december and to think people were still attending football games and so on at that time.
https://www.boston25news.com/news/cdc-reviewing-stunning-universal-testing-results-boston-homeless-shelter/Z253TFBO6RG4HCUAARBO4YWO64/
BOSTON — The Centers for Disease Control and Prevention is now “actively looking into” results from universal COVID-19 testing at Pine Street Inn homeless shelter.
The broad-scale testing took place at the shelter in Boston’s South End a week and a half ago because of a small cluster of cases there.
Of the 397 people tested, 146 people tested positive. Not a single one had any symptoms. Content Continues Below
“It was like a double knockout punch. The number of positives was shocking, but the fact that 100 percent of the positives had no symptoms was equally shocking,” said Dr. Jim O’Connell, president of Boston Health Care for the Homeless Program, which provides medical care at the city’s shelters.
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Rock Defender [54]
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Re: Sweden vs Norway in Attitude toward Covid-19. Interesting!
Apr 18, 2020, 12:15 AM
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161 deaths in Norway 1400 deaths in Sweden
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Rock Defender [54]
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Re: Sweden vs Norway in Attitude toward Covid-19. Interesting!
Apr 18, 2020, 9:38 AM
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Duewest, u smoking bad stuff.
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110%er [6153]
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Re: Sweden vs Norway in Attitude toward Covid-19. Interesting!
Apr 18, 2020, 12:13 PM
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Wanna go back and do it per capita ? Probably not.
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Athletic Dir [881]
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Deaths per 1M
Apr 18, 2020, 1:10 PM
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Sweden 150 Norway 30
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Legend [16507]
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And USA is about 117***
Apr 18, 2020, 3:00 PM
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Orange Blooded [3617]
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Re: Sweden vs Norway in Attitude toward Covid-19. Interesting!
Apr 18, 2020, 6:08 PM
[ in reply to Re: Sweden vs Norway in Attitude toward Covid-19. Interesting! ] |
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Due, I like you, but your original comparison of the two countries was bad info.
Sweden reported 111 more deaths today, putting their total now at 1511, #13 in the world. Norway added 3.
Sweden's 111 today is equal to 67% of Norway's total to date. There is no favorable comparison to be found here.
Besides, it turns out that the Swedish model is not based on a belief in freedom and free markets (they're the Swedes; 'profit' is a dirty word.) Their lack of response is based on a dysfunctional government where a single health minister made this passive decision to 'rely on the virtue of the Swedish people to do the right thing.'
He sounds really noble. But he failed to understand that international travelers can pass this bug for over a week after returning home while never showing symptoms; and the Swedish populace has changed, with fully 25% of the population being recent immigrants. That immigrant community is where the high death toll is coming from: multiple generations in close quarters in densely packed urban areas.
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110%er [6153]
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Good discussion anyway ...***
Apr 18, 2020, 6:36 PM
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Orange Blooded [3617]
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Re: Good discussion anyway ...***
Apr 18, 2020, 9:01 PM
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Yes.
And I always give the benefit of the doubt to people like you who speak up for the rights of the individual, even if I don't always agree with what that person does with those rights.
A self-righteous mob can be just as tyrannical and a whole lot less accountable than a tyrannical government.
But this really is a unique situation. I really could pick up the virus off a keyboard in an essential business in Richland Co, become infected by eating takeout without washing hands, return home 90 miles away, sneeze openly while taking a walk in my neighborhood, and infect the lady walking her dog 200 yards behind me--all without ever knowing I was sick.
Weird stuff.
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Rock Defender [54]
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Re: Sweden vs Norway in Attitude toward Covid-19. Interesting!
Apr 19, 2020, 12:27 AM
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DueWest, you got some splaining to do. You spinning fake news.
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110%er [6153]
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Re: Sweden vs Norway in Attitude toward Covid-19. Interesting!
Apr 20, 2020, 2:59 PM
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All news is fake. Everyone is spinning.
It’s called discussion.
Deal with it.
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Starter [368]
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Re: Sweden vs Norway in Attitude toward Covid-19. Interesting!
Apr 19, 2020, 12:35 AM
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Once again BigHouse spot on dead center bullseye correct. Somebody is feeding DueWest BS and he’s eating it up. Sad.
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110%er [6153]
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Thanks “Rookie”.
Apr 20, 2020, 2:57 PM
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Nice second post.
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