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Oculus Spirit [43879]
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Hall of Famer [8148]
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There's a good argument
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Aug 17, 2023, 11:16 AM
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that if Ukraine received cluster ammunition for HIMARS, the war would be over in two weeks. I think it's a bit optimistic, but it would definitely tip the scales in Ukraine's favor. FWIW, Germany among others could ship the munitions in 24 hours.
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Oculus Spirit [43879]
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Oculus Spirit [43879]
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Hall of Famer [8148]
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I'm not sure the US wants to take the lead on this.
Aug 17, 2023, 4:44 PM
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But yeah, the M26s would push the range out to 45km which could destroy most the Russian artillery shelling Ukraine. It could also wipe out the Russian front lines, but I don't know if Ukraine would use them for that. There's a reason we didn't immediately send them to Ukraine even though we're not involved in the treaty banning them in conflict zones. If I had to guess, Ukraine would immediately counter any Russian artillery as a show of force then gradually use them on more densely populated targets.
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TigerNet Immortal [176660]
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I love clusters
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Aug 17, 2023, 11:22 AM
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Oculus Spirit [43879]
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I would crush those like Kylie the Dog Faced Muttslut
Aug 17, 2023, 11:24 AM
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Except I have PeanutTSD.
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TigerNet Icon [153283]
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Huh.
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Aug 17, 2023, 12:54 PM
[ in reply to I love clusters ] |
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Always had you pegged as more of a GooGoo Dolls fan.
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Paw Master [17352]
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Luckily I speak Russian; he’s just talking about hockey.***
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Aug 17, 2023, 11:28 AM
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Clemson Icon [27839]
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Next up... Thermobarics.***
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Aug 17, 2023, 12:01 PM
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Clemson Conqueror [11652]
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Re: Russians getting … don’t high five too soon
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Aug 17, 2023, 7:45 PM
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I am glad that Ukraine has had some short term success on the battlefield.
We all need to remember one important point:
NATO started sending cluster ordnance after NATO had flunked up and essentially depleted its non-cluster artillery shells.
Cluster munitions had been excluded from the battle in one of those strange sort of ‘gentlemen’s’ rule of battle. Similar to the ‘gentlemen’s’ mutual restraint on using tactical nukes.
Ukraine, thanks to NATO, has an advantage with respect to cluster munitions. Because Ukraine broke a facet of the ‘gentlemen’s’ rules.
Is no one concerned how Russia may choose to respond to Ukraine’s escalation?
This isn’t some flag football sporting event. Tackles may be the start, then late hits, then targeting, then torn up arms and legs in pileups.
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Campus Hero [13551]
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these morons have no clue***
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Aug 17, 2023, 8:13 PM
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CU Medallion [19107]
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Not correct to say this is an escalation by Ukraine...
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Aug 17, 2023, 8:59 PM
[ in reply to Re: Russians getting … don’t high five too soon ] |
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https://www.hrw.org/news/2023/05/29/cluster-munition-use-russia-ukraine-war Cluster Munition Use in Russia-Ukraine War Since Russia’s full-scale invasion of Ukraine on February 24, 2022, Russian armed forces have used cluster munitions in attacks that have caused hundreds of civilian casualties and damaged civilian objects, including homes, hospitals, and schools. The Ukrainian military has not denied credible evidence of its own use of cluster munitions in the conflict and has publicly asked to be supplied with the weapon.
"Since Russia’s full-scale invasion of Ukraine on February 24, 2022, Russian armed forces have used cluster munitions in attacks that have caused hundreds of civilian casualties and damaged civilian objects, including homes, hospitals, and schools."
But as that report also points out Ukraine doesn't deny their own possible use and they clearly asked for and are using them now to break up heavily armed Russian defenses in their country.
If you're getting your information from specific sites that are calling this an escalation by Ukraine you might want to reevaluate that source because it's spreading Russian propaganda.
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Clemson Conqueror [11652]
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Re: Not correct to say this is an escalation by Ukraine...
Aug 17, 2023, 10:14 PM
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Thank you for providing the correction. Related …
There was a lot of (OK, some) hand wringing from NATO about whether or not to supply cluster munitions to Ukraine.
NATO viewed sending of cluster ordnance as a substitute for the (nearly depleted) traditional ordnance as an escalation of the conflict.
Why might NATO have been concerned about this?
Perhaps because of the greater lethality of NATO’s high end cluster munitions than those which Ukraine and Russia had been shooting at each other?
The salient point, in which my detail was in error, is the risks from escalating the conflict.
That is not Russia propaganda.
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CU Medallion [19107]
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"Escalation" has been involved in all support of Ukraine....
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Aug 17, 2023, 10:37 PM
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but the debate over cluster munitions is different because the debate isn't about their use escalating the conflict (since they're already been used), it's about the moral ground that will be lost by the US (not NATO) supplying the weapons.
https://www.vox.com/politics/2023/7/7/23785820/cluster-bombs-ukraine-united-states-biden-treaty
“It’s really about how is everybody else going to respond to this, NATO allies and the broader international community,” said Jennifer Erickson, an international security and arms control expert at Boston College. “It’s about testing what has been seen as a broader international norm, rather than a question of: ‘Well, if we sell that tank, Russia will take that as an escalation.’ This seems just a different conversation entirely.”
"Many NATO allies are party to the cluster munitions ban, including Germany and France. As experts pointed out, one of the treaty obligations requires parties to “promote the norms” against use and to “make its best efforts” to discourage non-treaty members from using cluster bombs. This puts some NATO states in a bit of a bind, as they probably should, at the very least, strongly scold the United States and Ukraine if they take this step."
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Clemson Conqueror [11652]
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Re: "Escalation" has … messing with Sasquatch
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Aug 18, 2023, 12:23 PM
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Excellent link about America’s internal philosophical conflicts with respect to supplying Ukraine with our (technically and operationally superior?) cluster munitions.
The definition of what constitutes ‘escalation’ is made very well by you. If we provide military transport vehicles to Ukraine, that is escalation. Also so with cluster munitions …
Russia has (or maybe only had previously) used cluster munitions since starting Ukraine war in early 2022. Also hyperbaric ordnance had been (in reasonable analysis) had been used at least once (but probably not more than once) by Russia against Ukraine. Ukraine had reportedly made limited use of cluster munitions before the USA started supplying large quantities of old stocks of cluster ordnance.
OK, back to ‘escalation.’ Escalation is a qualitative term. It is defined largely in accord with how the entity using the term ‘escalation’ wants it to mean.
(?). Does Russia decide that USA involvement in the Ukraine war via sending (presumably) higher lethality cluster munitions to Ukraine? Maybe. More likely … yes.
(?). Next escalation … extensive use of hyperbaric munitions? After that … limited use of tactical nukes?
(***). This war needs to be negotiated to a close, and quickly. Our country is full of delusional people who harbor fantasies that Putin will be overthrown, and that the dictator who replaces Putin will be a ‘better guy’ than Putin. We are also delusional if the negotiated conclusion of the war will include Russia not just returning territory conquered since 2022, but also returning Crimea to Ukraine.
(***). The USA’s current Democrat regime is desperate to demonstrate its foreign policy competence. What better way to make this point than smiting evil Russia? The problem here is that political partisans and naive Americans are viewing the Ukraine / Russia war through this lens. Sorry folks, but this isn’t how that war will end. No matter how much we want it to be. (I’d love it if it ended with a total victory for Ukraine.). It isn’t about wishful thinking, however.
We are messing with Sasquatch, but too many Americans haven’t figured this out yet.
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CU Medallion [19107]
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What are Hyperbaric munitions? Do you mean Thermobaric?
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Aug 18, 2023, 7:06 PM
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Regardless, the argument over the use of cluster munitions isn't one of it escalating the conflict but of losing moral superiority. But even there, considering this is a war started by Russia's illegal invasion of a sovereign country, it's mainly an academic argument.
The war needs to end, we agree. But we must support Ukraine until the time that Russia stops its invasion and goes back home. There is no argument where appeasing Putin helps make the world or the US safer yet so many on the right keep making that argument. It's a weak and dangerous position and one I hope they stop making soon because I do think it's having an effect on public sentiment surrounding the war. It's actively hurting our cause.
The way Biden, US, and NATO has handled this has been largely the correct way as we've seen Russia weaken both militarily, politically, and economically while at the same time, NATO has gotten stronger. Unfortunately, while those positives exist, Ukraine still carries the brunt of the horror and pain of the War and for that reason, especially, the war needs to end.
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CU Medallion [20868]
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Re: Not correct to say this is an escalation by Ukraine...
Aug 17, 2023, 11:13 PM
[ in reply to Not correct to say this is an escalation by Ukraine... ] |
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Our cluster bombs are better I take it. Not surprising. Those must really play hell on an entrenched line of defense.
Putin has drained Russia of so much talented young men over these years. Either dying for empire or fleeing for sanity and a life. What could they possibly win that is worth all this?
Sowing chaos for lone power. It's a terrible way to treat the people who put you there.
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Campus Hero [13749]
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Yay war!!!***
Aug 18, 2023, 1:18 PM
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