|
Replies: 110
| visibility 1
|
All-In [44050]
TigerPulse: 81%
Posts: 32965
Joined: 2/22/03
|
It’s amazing how many of you are so dismissive about us winning 20 games
5
17
5
17
Feb 24, 2023, 1:12 PM
|
|
already this season.
This marks just the 16th time we have won 20 games in a basketball season. Brad has 5 of those.
In case you’re wondering, the others are:
Purnell 4
Foster 3
Ellis 2
Barnes 1
Shyatt 1
Obviously winning 20 games isn’t the be all, end all, but it is certainly an accomplishment.
|
|
|
|
 |
Scout Team [185]
TigerPulse: 76%
Posts: 233
Joined: 7/30/22
|
Re: It’s amazing how many of you are so dismissive about us winning 20 games
4
Feb 24, 2023, 1:16 PM
|
|
I don’t disagree, however, would be interesting to see 20 win seasons per number of years coached.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Standout [346]
TigerPulse: 92%
Posts: 151
Joined: 5/12/08
|
Re: It’s amazing how many of you are so dismissive about us winning 20 games
2
Feb 24, 2023, 1:56 PM
|
|
Purnell had 4 in a very short period of time!!
|
|
|
|
|
|
All-In [44050]
TigerPulse: 81%
Posts: 32965
Joined: 2/22/03
|
Purnell was a very good program builder and had a lot of regular season success.
1
2
Feb 24, 2023, 2:55 PM
|
|
His teams were not built for postseason play, as evidenced by his poor NCAA Tournament record.
|
|
|
|
|
|
CU Guru [1487]
TigerPulse: 76%
Posts: 1995
Joined: 1/2/23
|
Two top-40 finishes in 13 years.
3
Feb 24, 2023, 3:53 PM
|
|
You cannot be serious.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Orange Blooded [2844]
TigerPulse: 100%
Posts: 812
Joined: 6/22/12
|
Re: Purnell was a very good program builder and had a lot of regular season success.
2
Feb 24, 2023, 4:25 PM
[ in reply to Purnell was a very good program builder and had a lot of regular season success. ] |
|
I don’t think this is the argument to make. Purnell and Brownell both have had 6 seasons that they entered postseason play. Purnell in 7 years Brad in 12. Brad made it to a sweet 16, but outside of that a very pedestrian post season resume.
|
|
|
|
|
|
All-In [44050]
TigerPulse: 81%
Posts: 32965
Joined: 2/22/03
|
I’m not making an argument when I say that Purnell was a good program builder
Feb 26, 2023, 3:13 PM
|
|
but that his teams weren’t built for postseason play.
His ability to turn multiple teams around, as well as his 0-fer in the NCAA Tournament, are well-documented.
Message was edited by: Judge Keller®
|
|
|
|
|
|
Standout [320]
TigerPulse: 94%
Posts: 176
Joined: 12/14/17
|
Re: Purnell was a very good program builder and had a lot of regular season success.
Feb 26, 2023, 1:06 PM
[ in reply to Purnell was a very good program builder and had a lot of regular season success. ] |
|
One thing is for sure…we have no idea if many of Brownell’s teams were built for post season play! And if we don’t go deep into the ACC tourney after byes, we’ll continue to add teams to that list.
|
|
|
|
|
|
All-TigerNet [13505]
TigerPulse: 100%
Posts: 8936
Joined: 8/30/18
|
Re: Purnell was a very good program builder and had a lot of regular season success.
Feb 26, 2023, 3:04 PM
[ in reply to Purnell was a very good program builder and had a lot of regular season success. ] |
|
So, they were just good for 30+ regular season games but somehow forgot how to play when it was called a playoff game? Usually, it has more to do with other teams just playing better. I don't think there are changes to be made that somehow improve your play simply because you go from a regular season game to a tournament game.
Granted, handling the pressure of a one-and-done scenario is something that players have to address and perhaps that is where experience and maturity come in but not too much a coach can do with that other than to prepare for the in-game adjustments he may need to make at the right time. Experience really is the best teacher in these scenarios because the more you are under the gun the better you learn to adapt to it.
|
|
|
|
|
|
All-In [44050]
TigerPulse: 81%
Posts: 32965
Joined: 2/22/03
|
The alternative explanation is that we were victims of bad matchups
Feb 26, 2023, 3:18 PM
|
|
and that all three lower seeded teams we lost to in the NCAA Tournament during OP’s tenure were actually better than us.
Given the fact that OP never won an NCAA Tournament game in his career suggests that he doesn’t prepare his team well, and/or his style of play isn’t conducive to postseason success.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Orange Blooded [2847]
TigerPulse: 65%
Posts: 2576
Joined: 6/9/00
|
Then left after a brief time of success at Clemson
1
2
Feb 24, 2023, 4:53 PM
[ in reply to Re: It’s amazing how many of you are so dismissive about us winning 20 games ] |
|
Just like most Clemson basketball coaches. One good year and get the hell out of there because the Clemson fan base does not understand basketball. As Bill Foster once said after Clemson fans booed the Tiger Pause -- "Put helmets on and they probably will like it."
|
|
|
|
|
|
All-In [44050]
TigerPulse: 81%
Posts: 32965
Joined: 2/22/03
|
That’s hilarious! Truer words have never been spoken.***
Feb 26, 2023, 3:19 PM
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Orange Blooded [3047]
TigerPulse: 100%
Posts: 1746
Joined: 10/14/05
|
|
|
|
|
|
Orange Blooded [4596]
TigerPulse: 100%
Posts: 3360
Joined: 8/14/01
|
Re: It’s amazing how many of you are so dismissive about us winning 20 games
1
Feb 24, 2023, 2:53 PM
|
|
OP also had the misfortune of following Larry Shyatt, and his first 2 seasons suffered for that fact. His 3rd years was a 19-win season, then 4 20+ wins in a row.
OTOH, CBB inherited OPs string of 20+ win seasons, and got one in his first year with OPs players.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Orange Blooded [4596]
TigerPulse: 100%
Posts: 3360
Joined: 8/14/01
|
|
|
|
|
|
CU Guru [1487]
TigerPulse: 76%
Posts: 1995
Joined: 1/2/23
|
|
|
|
|
|
Freshman [-99]
TigerPulse: 68%
Posts: 3740
Joined: 9/5/20
|
I love people at cherry pick certain statistics that are worthless when put into context
Feb 24, 2023, 4:45 PM
[ in reply to Re: It’s amazing how many of you are so dismissive about us winning 20 games ] |
|
Also, the NCAA tournament has gotten easier to get into.
It’s also easier to win games the first couple of rounds of the ACC tournament because the ACC has been watered down by expansion and the last five years have been the worst. Five-year stretch in ACC basketball history with this year being the worst year in conference history. Duke and North Carolina are not even ranked.
Anyone can cherry pick a statistic. Look at the big picture. Brad Brownell has had the best facilities and the most support from the administration of any Clemson basketball coach in history. He’s also been coaching in the weakest most watered down ACC. With the easiest NCAA tournament to get into in history.
|
|
|
|
|
|
All-In [44050]
TigerPulse: 81%
Posts: 32965
Joined: 2/22/03
|
I absolutely disagree.
Feb 26, 2023, 3:27 PM
|
|
The NCAA Tournament is much harder to get into now.
This is based on several factors, including more automatic bids than before as well as more deserving teams. Mid-majors weren’t a thing in years past. Now, they are getting at-large bids they didn’t used to get.
It was not uncommon for ACC teams to get into the NCAA Tournament with losing conference records. Winning 19-20 games overall was generally good enough. Now, teams have to have far better conference and overall records.
For example, our ‘97-‘98 team coached by Rick Barnes was 18-13 overall, and 7-9 in the ACC. We finished tied for fourth in a 9-team ACC. Our non-conference wins were UNC Wilmington, Iona, Southwest Missouri State, Furman, South Carolina, Seton Hall, Charleston Southern, South Carolina State, Western Kentucky, and Western Carolina. Yet we were a 6 seed in the NCAA Tournament. LOL.
We see the same with the NIT. In the past, just being around .500 for overall record was good enough for an NIT bid. Now, that’s not close to being good enough.
You can look at our ‘87-‘88 team under Cliff Ellis, which was 14-14 overall, and we got an NIT bid. Our ‘93-‘94 team under Cliff Ellis was 16-15 and got an NIT invite.
That’s why comparing across eras, even from just a few decades ago, is difficult without context.
|
|
|
|
|
|
All-In [28406]
TigerPulse: 100%
Posts: 14068
Joined: 6/27/14
|
keep quiet hon
10
10
Feb 24, 2023, 1:17 PM
|
|
brad sux
|
|
|
|
|
|
CU Medallion [51535]
TigerPulse: 100%
Posts: 43081
Joined: 8/10/04
|
And it still isn't enough to get us into the NCAAT.***
11
11
Feb 24, 2023, 1:17 PM
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
All-In [44050]
TigerPulse: 81%
Posts: 32965
Joined: 2/22/03
|
I didn’t realize that the selection committee had already made their choices.***
2
2
Feb 24, 2023, 1:18 PM
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Hall of Famer [24551]
TigerPulse: 100%
Posts: 15122
Joined: 2/13/15
|
Re: I didn’t realize that the selection committee had already made their choices.***
2
Feb 24, 2023, 1:21 PM
|
|
Oh boy...
Can't wait for selection Sunday....
|
|
|
|
|
|
Heisman Winner [134505]
TigerPulse: 100%
Posts: 26395
Joined: 9/18/12
|
It will not be long. I hope Clemson can make it interesting
3
Feb 24, 2023, 1:28 PM
|
|
by running the table and winning one or two in the ACCT. It would be nice to see them in the tournament again! Go Tigers!!
|
|
|
|
|
|
Hall of Famer [24551]
TigerPulse: 100%
Posts: 15122
Joined: 2/13/15
|
I know M0FO....
1
Feb 24, 2023, 3:29 PM
|
|
But JK'S constant Brownell d!ck riding and jealousy posts slamming Dabo/Clemson FB makes him unbearable.....
|
|
|
|
|
|
CU Guru [1487]
TigerPulse: 76%
Posts: 1995
Joined: 1/2/23
|
Unbearable is exactly why the Board voted to remove her.
1
Feb 24, 2023, 3:55 PM
|
|
Mods ignored it.
I guess incessant trolling isn't really against board rules?
|
|
|
|
|
|
Asst Coach [707]
TigerPulse: 77%
Posts: 1266
Joined: 11/25/22
|
Re: Unbearable is exactly why the Board voted to remove her.
2
Feb 24, 2023, 4:09 PM
|
|
I enjoy JK. We don't see eye to eye on anything, but any uniqueness on here is appreciated. This place is enough an unthinking echochamber. The only person I genuinely want gone is that person who only posts the same sentence calling everyone a Coot.
|
|
|
|
|
|
CU Guru [1487]
TigerPulse: 76%
Posts: 1995
Joined: 1/2/23
|
|
|
|
|
|
Legend [19694]
TigerPulse: 100%
Posts: 17289
Joined: 8/18/05
|
Is this holds true
6
6
Feb 24, 2023, 1:27 PM
[ in reply to And it still isn't enough to get us into the NCAAT.*** ] |
|
will be the 2nd time with 20 wins we've missed the dance under Brad. OP, 3 of 4 made; Shyatt 0-1; Barnes 1-1 with 2 tourney appearances under 20 wins; Cliff, 2-2 with one tourney appearance under 20 wins; Foster, 1-2 with one 20 win season not counted while on probation with a stud team
|
|
|
|
|
|
110%er [5484]
TigerPulse: 100%
Posts: 2515
Joined: 11/13/10
|
Re: Is this holds true
3
Feb 24, 2023, 1:45 PM
|
|
Funny thing about that 87 game... I had to work that Friday night and one of my co-workers was Raymond Jones (played Center at CU in the early mid 80's).
We listened to the whole game on the radio. Seems like we were up by 20 at one point before Mugsy took over. Another in a long line of frustrating basketball memories...
|
|
|
|
|
|
All-In [44050]
TigerPulse: 81%
Posts: 32965
Joined: 2/22/03
|
Interestingly, Foster’s ‘79-‘80 team that made the Elite Eight
1
2
Feb 24, 2023, 1:47 PM
[ in reply to Is this holds true ] |
|
had 19 wins in the regular season. He only got to 20 with postseason play.
Shyatt won 20 games in ‘98-‘99, but four of those wins were in the NIT after a 16-game total in the regular season.
|
|
|
|
|
|
CU Guru [1502]
TigerPulse: 100%
Posts: 424
Joined: 9/8/18
|
Re: Is this holds true
Feb 25, 2023, 3:54 AM
[ in reply to Is this holds true ] |
|
will be the 2nd time with 20 wins we've missed the dance under Brad. OP, 3 of 4 made; Shyatt 0-1; Barnes 1-1 with 2 tourney appearances under 20 wins; Cliff, 2-2 with one tourney appearance under 20 wins; Foster, 1-2 with one 20 win season not counted while on probation with a stud team
Barnes never had a 20 win season when his team didn’t make the Tournament, and he only had one 20/20+ win season anyhow (1996-97). You can’t really count Shyatt’s 20 win season because the 1998-99 team had to make the NIT title game in order to get to 20 wins in the first place. In relatively somewhat recent history (last 20 years) the only team that would compare, in my opinion, with this year’s team (if they fail to make the NCAA Tournament) would be Purnell’s 2006-2007 team that started out like 17-0 or something.
|
|
|
|
|
|
110%er [9903]
TigerPulse: 100%
Posts: 4537
Joined: 3/24/19
|
Re: It’s amazing how many of you are so dismissive about us winning 20 games
4
Feb 24, 2023, 1:17 PM
|
|
Whatever.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Orange Blooded [4095]
TigerPulse: 100%
Posts: 2476
Joined: 11/30/98
|
Re: It’s amazing how many of you are so dismissive about us winning 20 games
5
5
Feb 24, 2023, 1:19 PM
|
|
This is the worst schedule we've ever had, right?
I better they would dominate the local Baptist church league and yet no one would be impressed by an undefeated Upward season...
Sure, it's better than losing but if it misses the NCAA tournament, that's all you really need to say about the "accomplishment."
|
|
|
|
|
|
All-TigerNet [10461]
TigerPulse: 100%
Posts: 11562
Joined: 6/29/01
|
I feel the same way when our fans dismiss winning 10 in
4
Feb 24, 2023, 1:20 PM
|
|
football.
|
|
|
|
|
|
All-In [40777]
TigerPulse: 100%
Posts: 10678
Joined: 6/23/17
|
Any decent coach would’ve won 20+ games with our schedule and
8
8
Feb 24, 2023, 1:21 PM
|
|
avoided the handful of quad 4 losses.
|
|
|
|
|
|
110%er [5484]
TigerPulse: 100%
Posts: 2515
Joined: 11/13/10
|
Re: It’s amazing how many of you are so dismissive about us winning 20 games
2
Feb 24, 2023, 1:24 PM
|
|
20 win seasons used to be the benchmark for NCAA tournament inclusion. However, even in the 80/81 season, Nance's final season and Hamilton's first year, we won 20 and were left out of the tournament.
My memory is that our ol ACC tournament nemesis Wake Forest, knocked us out in the first round. I think it was still at 48 teams then, maybe Striper remembers.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Legend [19694]
TigerPulse: 100%
Posts: 17289
Joined: 8/18/05
|
Lost to Wake but it was 1987 when Mugsy beat us with
5
5
Feb 24, 2023, 1:33 PM
|
|
Grayson Marshall out injured, which killed us in the ACC and NCAA tourney. He was the wheel that steered the car
|
|
|
|
|
|
CU Guru [1893]
TigerPulse: 94%
Posts: 2673
Joined: 7/22/99
|
Re: It’s amazing how many of you are so dismissive about us winning 20 games
5
5
Feb 24, 2023, 1:25 PM
|
|
It's not much of an accomplishment when you consider the OOC and ACC schedules. The only decent ACC teams Clemson faces/faced twice are Wake and NC State. The odds of beating the Wolfpack tomorrow - very low.
|
|
|
|
|
|
All-TigerNet [13505]
TigerPulse: 100%
Posts: 8936
Joined: 8/30/18
|
Re: It’s amazing how many of you are so dismissive about us winning 20 games
1
Feb 26, 2023, 3:11 PM
|
|
That Wolfpack comment didn't age well...
|
|
|
|
|
|
CU Medallion [64590]
TigerPulse: 100%
Posts: 88995
Joined: 3/27/01
|
No one is dismissing it, but let's keep it in perspective
4
Feb 24, 2023, 1:31 PM
|
|
by clarifying that this ain't you father's or grandfather's ACC. Based on Clemson's SOS ranking, both in conference and out of conference, winning 20+ should have been a give this year.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Legend [19694]
TigerPulse: 100%
Posts: 17289
Joined: 8/18/05
|
Perspective
5
5
Feb 24, 2023, 1:42 PM
|
|
I don't see anyone close to a Jordan, Len Bias, Ralph Sampson, Johnny Dawkins, Sam Perkins, James Worthy, Brad Daugherty, Danny Ferry or even a Mark Price or Horace Grant in the ACC today, or in many years truthfully. We can say the same for the stars of the 70's like Thompson, Burleson, McMillen, Len Elmore, Al Woods, Phil Ford, or the 90's with Kenny Anderson, Dennis Scott, Rasheed Wallace, Tim Duncan, Grant Hill.
|
|
|
|
|
|
All-In [44050]
TigerPulse: 81%
Posts: 32965
Joined: 2/22/03
|
More perspective.
1
2
Feb 24, 2023, 1:56 PM
|
|
The talent level throughout college basketball is down, because elite players aren’t staying in school four years like they used to.
It’s interesting that some of our fans acknowledge that the level of play at blue blood programs has changed, but yet they expect us to have more talent and capitalize on it somehow. Just LOL.
|
|
|
|
|
|
CU Medallion [64590]
TigerPulse: 100%
Posts: 88995
Joined: 3/27/01
|
The is arguably the most talented and deepest team...
Feb 24, 2023, 2:14 PM
|
|
during Brownell's tenure. That's why expectations are so high.
|
|
|
|
|
|
All-In [44050]
TigerPulse: 81%
Posts: 32965
Joined: 2/22/03
|
Experts picked us 11th in the preseason
1
Feb 24, 2023, 2:57 PM
|
|
yet you guys are mad that we are “only” fourth and are calling for Brownell’s head.
That’s some rich Clemson basketball fan logic there.
|
|
|
|
|
|
CU Medallion [64590]
TigerPulse: 100%
Posts: 88995
Joined: 3/27/01
|
No...that's not it at all !!!
1
Feb 24, 2023, 3:12 PM
|
|
I'm agitated by the ongoing inconsistency from game to game (sometimes from half to half), and the likelihood that the team is going to miss the NCCAT again.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Legend [16259]
TigerPulse: 100%
Posts: 12786
Joined: 11/14/09
|
That's because we're largely an afterthought year in and
1
Feb 24, 2023, 4:37 PM
[ in reply to Experts picked us 11th in the preseason ] |
|
year out among the media and the majority of college bball fandom. Would be interesting to see how we fared those few seasons when we were actually considered somewhat of a contender coming in (top 6 in the ACC or better) following a decent season finish prior. It's hard to go back and find league pre-season rankings like that to compare though.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Legend [19694]
TigerPulse: 100%
Posts: 17289
Joined: 8/18/05
|
The guys I listed apart from Horace were all studs
Feb 24, 2023, 2:58 PM
[ in reply to More perspective. ] |
|
as freshmen, except for a couple before freshman eligibility, and they were studs as sophs.
Who in the ACC this year, or even the last few years screams superstar pro?
|
|
|
|
|
|
All-TigerNet [13505]
TigerPulse: 100%
Posts: 8936
Joined: 8/30/18
|
Re: The guys I listed apart from Horace were all studs
Feb 26, 2023, 3:15 PM
|
|
I thought Zion would be if he could stay healthy long enough...
|
|
|
|
|
|
Orange Blooded [4596]
TigerPulse: 100%
Posts: 3360
Joined: 8/14/01
|
Re: More perspective.
1
Feb 24, 2023, 2:58 PM
[ in reply to More perspective. ] |
|
Had it not been for COVID extra year, this team would not have Hunter Tyson or Brevin Galloway. CBB got a break there.
|
|
|
|
|
|
All-In [44050]
TigerPulse: 81%
Posts: 32965
Joined: 2/22/03
|
He recruited them to be here this year.
Feb 26, 2023, 3:40 PM
|
|
He should get credit for convincing Hunter to stay and Brevin to come here.
Plus, every player and team gets the benefit of the COVID year, so it isn’t a “break” for Brad.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Orange Blooded [3616]
TigerPulse: 96%
Posts: 3792
Joined: 1/21/16
|
Re: More perspective.
Feb 26, 2023, 9:14 PM
[ in reply to Re: More perspective. ] |
|
Pitt and Miami are also benefiting from 6th-year transfers.
Of the ACC front runners, only UVa is mostly organic.
|
|
|
|
|
|
CU Guru [1487]
TigerPulse: 76%
Posts: 1995
Joined: 1/2/23
|
We're 76th.
Feb 24, 2023, 3:58 PM
[ in reply to More perspective. ] |
|
You are denied.
The end.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Rock Defender [71]
TigerPulse: 64%
Posts: 532
Joined: 12/11/22
|
Our ACC schedule this year
2
Feb 24, 2023, 2:01 PM
[ in reply to No one is dismissing it, but let's keep it in perspective ] |
|
The combined ACC W/L record of our conference opponents played Y-T-D is only 128-164. Our conference schedule as a whole is currently 155-189. This has been a weak conference schedule and we lucked out playing Pitt, Duke, Miami, UVA, and UNCheat only once.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Hall of Famer [22391]
TigerPulse: 99%
Posts: 31286
Joined: 11/30/98
|
Benedict was an exhibition. So, technically, we have not
1
Feb 24, 2023, 1:36 PM
|
|
won 20 games.
|
|
|
|
|
|
110%er [5512]
TigerPulse: 100%
Posts: 4987
Joined: 10/21/15
|
Re: Benedict was an exhibition. So, technically, we have not
Feb 24, 2023, 2:26 PM
|
|
Yes, we have. Benedict is not one of the 20 wins.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Orange Blooded [4059]
TigerPulse: 100%
Posts: 4547
Joined: 3/6/01
|
The most concrete measure of success in college hoops
3
Feb 24, 2023, 1:40 PM
|
|
is NCAA tournament appearances. With 68 invitees, successful programs make the tourney more often than they don’t. It is the most important standard.
|
|
|
|
|
|
110%er [6858]
TigerPulse: 95%
Posts: 6499
Joined: 10/7/07
|
Not for JK. Winning irrelevant games means more. Apparently.
Feb 24, 2023, 2:00 PM
|
|
Because when you win 20+, win a record number of league games, etc and still dont make the dance, well, thats all that needs to be said.
|
|
|
|
|
|
CU Medallion [64590]
TigerPulse: 100%
Posts: 88995
Joined: 3/27/01
|
As many on this forum have repeatedly said...
5
5
Feb 24, 2023, 2:21 PM
|
|
the barometer for a successful basketball program is making the NACC Tournament far more often than not.
Earlier in the year, even JK said that if Clemson didn't make the NCAAT this year, he would not be opposed to CBB being terminated.
Only three NCAAT appearance in thirteen years simply ain't gonna cut it at any major program.
|
|
|
|
|
|
All-In [44050]
TigerPulse: 81%
Posts: 32965
Joined: 2/22/03
|
That’s YOUR barometer.
Feb 24, 2023, 3:56 PM
|
|
Which is fine, but it’s not everyone’s.
I do believe that making the NCAA Tournament should be a goal of ours. It’s Brad’s goal, and it’s Neff’s goal.
But there are a lot of things that go into defining a successful season and program. You’re welcome to base it only on NCAA Tournament appearances if you wish, but our administration looks at a lot more than that.
|
|
|
|
|
|
CU Medallion [64590]
TigerPulse: 100%
Posts: 88995
Joined: 3/27/01
|
Our administration has to say that publicly...
2
Feb 24, 2023, 4:10 PM
|
|
and while there are certainly other factors to consider, at the end of the day, EVERYONE KNOWS that making the NCAA tournament is the mark of a successful/winning program. The fact that CBB has allies within the administration that have permitted him to retain his position for 12+ years in spite of largely mediocre results, doesn't change that. If you think ANYONE that is part of a major college basketball program is happy with only 3 NCAAT appearance in 13 years, you're kidding yourself.
|
|
|
|
|
|
All-TigerNet [13700]
TigerPulse: 100%
Posts: 4839
Joined: 9/17/05
|
Neff has made it clear.
2
Feb 24, 2023, 4:15 PM
[ in reply to That’s YOUR barometer. ] |
|
If Clemson doesn’t make the NCAA tournament, Brad Brownell will no longer be the head basketball coach at Clemson.
Simple and fair.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Oculus Spirit [96870]
TigerPulse: 100%
Posts: 29215
Joined: 9/14/05
|
That wasn’t the deal.***
3
Feb 24, 2023, 4:23 PM
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Heisman Winner [108390]
TigerPulse: 100%
Posts: 64974
Joined: 2/25/06
|
It wasn't? Go on...
4
Feb 24, 2023, 4:29 PM
|
|
we're listening.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Oculus Spirit [96870]
TigerPulse: 100%
Posts: 29215
Joined: 9/14/05
|
|
|
|
|
|
Heisman Winner [108390]
TigerPulse: 100%
Posts: 64974
Joined: 2/25/06
|
Not sure that's even proof of life, much less intelligent life...***
3
Feb 24, 2023, 4:40 PM
|
|
.
|
|
|
|
|
|
All-TigerNet [13700]
TigerPulse: 100%
Posts: 4839
Joined: 9/17/05
|
It’s tough for some of these cultists to see a deal for what it is.
1
Feb 24, 2023, 11:44 PM
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
All-TigerNet [13505]
TigerPulse: 100%
Posts: 8936
Joined: 8/30/18
|
Re: Here's proof...
Feb 26, 2023, 3:26 PM
[ in reply to Here's proof... ] |
|
What proof, another thread of people like us spouting their opinions? What Neff said in his letter was that he and Brad met and agreed the goal was to get us back to playing in the Big Dance. He said that was the goal; he never said he would fire Brad if it didn't happen this year.
Now, maybe he will or maybe he won't but there is nothing out there to support an existing quid pro quo that was put in place. You are free to speculate but if you are going to claim proof then provide something with Neff actually laying it out the way you claim and not just more hearsay.
|
|
|
|
|
|
CU Guru [1677]
TigerPulse: 100%
Posts: 1764
Joined: 1/24/09
|
Re: Neff has made it clear.
1
Feb 24, 2023, 11:37 PM
[ in reply to Neff has made it clear. ] |
|
Interesting I said that exact thing which was in Neff’s email to IPTAY members such as myself and JK said that is not what Neff said.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Standout [320]
TigerPulse: 94%
Posts: 176
Joined: 12/14/17
|
Re: That’s YOUR barometer.
Feb 26, 2023, 1:11 PM
[ in reply to That’s YOUR barometer. ] |
|
I bet the looking glass gets clearer if we miss the tournament again this year!
|
|
|
|
|
|
Orange Blooded [4596]
TigerPulse: 100%
Posts: 3360
Joined: 8/14/01
|
Re: The most concrete measure of success in college hoops
2
Feb 24, 2023, 3:08 PM
[ in reply to The most concrete measure of success in college hoops ] |
|
[Posted earlier]
238–174 (.578) overall, so somewhat over .500, ACC 115–116 (.498) over almost 13 full seasons.
I don't think anyone should say CBB is a bad coach, but he's not a really good coach either. He's a somewhat better than average coach, with an inability to recruit at a high-level with any consistency, and with an inability to win with consistency. And a propensity to lose more than an acceptable number of inexcusably bad games.
I'm certain CBB is a fine person, and his program has been cleanly run, and he doesn't suck as a coach. He broke the 0-59 streak!
But in his profession, winning, while not everything, is right at the top of a short list.
In his 13 years at Clemson, he's had 6 winning ACC seasons, 5 losing seasons, and 2 .500 seasons. But in that span he is 115–116 (.498), so an overall losing record in the conference.
His overall performance is somewhat better, but of course includes a steady diet of the lower echelons of college basketball (like all major programs do, nothing special there). He has managed to have only one overall losing season, a dreadful 13-18 season in 2012/13. However, 5 of those winning-season campaigns were one-half game above .500 (17-16 twice, 16-15 twice, and 15-14). So BARELY winning seasons, but we'll count them anyway.
20-win seasons are a yardstick for defining darn good years. CBB has 5, including this year. So five out of 13 years, OP had 4 in 7 years.
NIT seasons are better than no postseasons. CBB has 3 in 13 years. OP had 3 in 7 years.
NCAAT seasons are probably the defining hallmark. CBB has 3, one of those WAS a sweet-16 run (but zero momentum built, as the next season barely eked out an NIT bid). OP had 3 in 7 years (OP had post season play every year except year 1).
The three previous coaches at Clemson who were not named Larry Shyatt were
177–128 (.580) and 56–90 (.384)
74–48 (.607) and 28–36 (.438)
138–90 (.605) and 50–62 (.446)
CBB is slightly ahead of the pace in the ACC, but at least some of that has to do with expansion of the league (the increased number of games and the unbalanced schedules), but slightly behind the pace overall, but at least some of that has to do with playing fewer non-conference games and more conference games.
If Clemson University and the fans are happy with having a generally problem-free, but middling basketball team, then let's keep CBB--maybe he is overpaid, though. However, if we want to try to see if there is someone out there who can produce better results on the court than 13 years of being ever-so-slightly better than average basketball, then maybe it's time to move on from CBB. He's had ample opportunities.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Orange Blooded [3945]
TigerPulse: 94%
Posts: 2462
Joined: 10/10/08
|
Re: The most concrete measure of success in college hoops
Feb 24, 2023, 8:28 PM
|
|
POTD. And best post of the whole tenure of BB. Agree whole heartedly.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Rock Defender [71]
TigerPulse: 64%
Posts: 532
Joined: 12/11/22
|
Re: It’s amazing how many of you are so dismissive about us winning 20 games
1
1
Feb 24, 2023, 1:43 PM
|
|
If you don't make the tournament, winning 20 games is the equivalent of making a New Years Day bowl game in football....neither no longer means anything.
|
|
|
|
|
|
110%er [5512]
TigerPulse: 100%
Posts: 4987
Joined: 10/21/15
|
Re: It’s amazing how many of you are so dismissive about us winning 20 games
1
Feb 24, 2023, 2:27 PM
|
|
More like making a late-December bowl game
|
|
|
|
|
|
110%er [6281]
TigerPulse: 95%
Posts: 12983
Joined: 4/21/15
|
Re: It’s amazing how many of you are so dismissive about us winning 20 games
1
Feb 24, 2023, 1:46 PM
|
|
What is our Strenght of Record? Just curious how it stacks up to previous seasons.
|
|
|
|
|
|
110%er [5972]
TigerPulse: 100%
Posts: 3941
Joined: 1/10/04
|
It's not about the Ws, it's about the Ls***
3
Feb 24, 2023, 1:47 PM
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
110%er [6099]
TigerPulse: 100%
Posts: 13248
Joined: 11/10/00
|
dismissive of ACC football champ as well. Lose to coots
1
Feb 24, 2023, 2:04 PM
|
|
and conference competition is down, nothing to brag about.
if BrownL gets into NCAA and wins first round keep him. If not... bon voyage
|
|
|
|
|
|
Legend [16908]
TigerPulse: 100%
Posts: 10770
Joined: 1/25/07
|
Re: It’s amazing how many of you are so dismissive about us winning 20 games
Feb 24, 2023, 2:10 PM
|
|
Statistically speaking if we’ve ever won 20 games in a season, then it isn’t meaningful to do it during the easiest schedule we’ve ever played. HTH
|
|
|
|
|
|
CU Guru [1271]
TigerPulse: 87%
Posts: 1307
Joined: 8/17/11
|
Re: It’s amazing how many of you are so dismissive about us winning 20 games
Feb 24, 2023, 2:15 PM
|
|
Perfect timing...the weakest the conference has been in many many years and a Clemson team that is above average has made it favorable to happen this year.
|
|
|
|
|
|
CU Medallion [58415]
TigerPulse: 100%
Posts: 46324
Joined: 4/23/00
|
It's all relative. If we don't make the tournament, it
2
Feb 24, 2023, 2:26 PM
|
|
really doesn't mean much.
|
|
|
|
|
|
CU Guru [1243]
TigerPulse: 94%
Posts: 617
Joined: 11/1/10
|
Serious question no bs
Feb 24, 2023, 2:39 PM
|
|
If we don’t make the tournament then what happens? Can we really keep brownell then? A change will have to be made just objectively looking at results over his tenure, right?
|
|
|
|
|
|
110%er [5512]
TigerPulse: 100%
Posts: 4987
Joined: 10/21/15
|
Re: It’s amazing how many of you are so dismissive about us winning 20 games
1
Feb 24, 2023, 3:08 PM
|
|
Judge, you seem like a decently educated person. So, help me out here. Why is it so hard for you to apply context to statistics?
Of course Brownell has “more” raw counting numbers than other coaches in our history. He’s been here for 13 years.
You need context on stats. You ignore context to create false representation of success and EVERYONE sees through it. You just look and sound ignorant with this nonsense.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Orange Blooded [4096]
TigerPulse: 96%
Posts: 5219
Joined: 10/23/10
|
It’s not how many but also, WHO you beat
Feb 24, 2023, 3:11 PM
|
|
Clemson needs to win out. If they can get these last three regular season it will show they can beat GOOD teams.
|
|
|
|
|
|
All-TigerNet [13505]
TigerPulse: 100%
Posts: 8936
Joined: 8/30/18
|
Re: It’s amazing how many of you are so dismissive about us winning 20 games
1
Feb 24, 2023, 3:46 PM
|
|
Women's softball will hit 20 wins by mid-March and I won't be dismissive at all...
|
|
|
|
|
|
Rock Defender [53]
TigerPulse: 90%
Posts: 35
Joined: 11/30/98
|
This isnt a big deal.
Feb 24, 2023, 3:50 PM
|
|
21 of 76 P6 teams have hit 20 wins to date.
That means only about 3/4 of them havent. And 3/4 is really no different than 75%.
So 75% of P6 teams are worse than Clemson from a W-L standpoint as of now.
But since 75% is a C, lets all agree 20 wins just isnt a big deal and fire Brownell today.
|
|
|
|
|
|
CU Guru [1487]
TigerPulse: 76%
Posts: 1995
Joined: 1/2/23
|
Put into context - we're 76th right now.
Feb 24, 2023, 3:52 PM
|
|
Yet again you avoid the big picture, for obvious reasons.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Legend [18851]
TigerPulse: 100%
Posts: 5045
Joined: 7/15/13
|
Re: It’s amazing how many of you are so dismissive about us winning 20 games
Feb 24, 2023, 3:52 PM
|
|
Judge you know I want Brad gone but to fuel your debate. The Covid shorted year Brad would have gotten us to 20 wins and was a season no one got to see
|
|
|
|
|
|
Orange Blooded [2409]
TigerPulse: 100%
Posts: 1784
Joined: 5/27/14
|
Re: It’s amazing how many of you are so dismissive about us winning 20 games
1
Feb 24, 2023, 4:10 PM
|
|
It's not about the 20 games we have one, it's about the 4 or 5 unexplainable losses that we should have easily won
|
|
|
|
|
|
Orange Blooded [3141]
TigerPulse: 100%
Posts: 2981
Joined: 11/11/02
|
It's what could have been...
Feb 24, 2023, 4:11 PM
|
|
Right now we are sitting on the bubble, like a Chinese balloon hovering over SC hoping Biden is still asleep and no F35's in the air.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Freshman [-99]
TigerPulse: 68%
Posts: 3740
Joined: 9/5/20
|
Because it’s the worst ACC in history.
Feb 24, 2023, 4:41 PM
|
|
Because it’s a week schedule
Because we have three quad for losses. This article was wrong. It’s not too, it’s three
Because Boston College and Louisville suck.
Brother Neil is worse than Tommy Bowden. Tommy Bowden was right at nine wins per season. But we were terrible. Incredibly inconsistent. Lookout inconsistent. This team has been under Brad Brownell. Inconsistency means bad coaching especially with a weak schedule.
If this is the best he can do after 13 years with the ACC at an all time low he will never achieve anything.
No, rational person can defend Brad Brownell. You can cherry pick certain statistics but when you look at the big picture, he’s a joke! Nice guy. But not capable of winning at this level.
|
|
|
|
|
|
110%er [5512]
TigerPulse: 100%
Posts: 4987
Joined: 10/21/15
|
Re: Because it’s the worst ACC in history.
Feb 25, 2023, 2:34 AM
|
|
It’s 2 quad 4 losses, now. The coots moved up.
|
|
|
|
|
|
All-In [31310]
TigerPulse: 100%
Posts: 9125
Joined: 8/31/15
|
Re: It’s amazing how many of you are so dismissive about us winning 20 games
Feb 24, 2023, 4:51 PM
|
|
already this season.
This marks just the 16th time we have won 20 games in a basketball season. Brad has 5 of those.
In case you’re wondering, the others are:
Purnell 4
Foster 3
Ellis 2
Barnes 1
Shyatt 1
Obviously winning 20 games isn’t the be all, end all, but it is certainly an accomplishment.
Give it up man. Spin the stats however it makes you feel good, but BB is an average coach. Not a great coach not a good coach. Average at best. He has been here longer than most hence he should lead in most categories.
If Barnes would have stayed you would really have some stats worth bringing up, and I’m sure the basketball team was not supported financially as well as they are now. Not sure why the love fest with this guy but he should have 25 with our schedule.
You mentioned in an earlier post we would make it to the tourney, and I’m not talking about the NIT. I’m hoping you are correct.
Message was edited by: rhpltmeg®
|
|
|
|
|
|
Letterman [290]
TigerPulse: 75%
Posts: 441
Joined: 2/8/21
|
Re: It’s amazing how many of you are so dismissive about us winning 20 games
1
Feb 24, 2023, 5:23 PM
|
|
It's the best Clemson Basketball has done in years, but the internet is outraged and we need to "FiRe eVeRyOnE!"
|
|
|
|
|
|
All-TigerNet [10345]
TigerPulse: 100%
Posts: 12803
Joined: 11/22/03
|
Re: It’s amazing how many of you are so dismissive about us winning 20 games
1
Feb 24, 2023, 5:27 PM
|
|
How about make the tourney and go deep into the tourney. That's what I want to see. I don't care how many they win as long as they make and do well in the tourney.
|
|
|
|
|
|
All-In [44050]
TigerPulse: 81%
Posts: 32965
Joined: 2/22/03
|
We did exactly that, in 2017-2018.
Feb 26, 2023, 3:45 PM
|
|
We had one of our best seasons in program history.
Brownell delivered what you asked for, so why are you acting like he can’t or hasn’t?
|
|
|
|
|
|
All-TigerNet [10345]
TigerPulse: 100%
Posts: 12803
Joined: 11/22/03
|
Re: We did exactly that, in 2017-2018.
Mar 2, 2023, 1:10 PM
|
|
You said 2017-2018. You just clearly proved my point.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Orange Blooded [4459]
TigerPulse: 91%
Posts: 4240
Joined: 1/1/19
|
Re: It’s amazing how many of you are so dismissive about us winning 20 games
1
Feb 24, 2023, 7:19 PM
|
|
Brad has been here the longest. Looking at his entire body of work not just two years of 13. If he makes the NCAA tournament I’m for bringing him back. If he fails to make the tournament then we need to move on. When we lose Hall and Hunter Tyson then we near bottom.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Orange Blooded [4459]
TigerPulse: 91%
Posts: 4240
Joined: 1/1/19
|
Re: It’s amazing how many of you are so dismissive about us winning 20 games
Feb 24, 2023, 7:30 PM
|
|
Nobody is dismissing winning 20 games. Can you quit whining.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Oculus Spirit [83127]
TigerPulse: 100%
Posts: 80161
Joined: 11/29/99
|
12 ACC wins is bigger. 23 wins is the new 20.***
Feb 24, 2023, 7:37 PM
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Legend [16259]
TigerPulse: 100%
Posts: 12786
Joined: 11/14/09
|
Like $20 bucks, 20 Wins ain't what it used to be.
Feb 24, 2023, 7:50 PM
|
|
It's still a good season so far, though, no doubt. Hope it's good enough to crack that nut before it wraps.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Orange Blooded [3961]
TigerPulse: 100%
Posts: 3808
Joined: 8/6/13
|
Re: It’s amazing how many of you are so dismissive about us winning 20 games
Feb 24, 2023, 8:05 PM
|
|
Make the tournament or it’s a failed season. It’s not that hard.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Mascot [15]
TigerPulse: 93%
Posts: 4
Joined: 2/20/23
|
Re: It’s amazing how many of you are so dismissive about us winning 20 games
Feb 24, 2023, 8:07 PM
|
|
It's just sad to see this level of delusion. You are clearly not a Clemson fan but a BB apologist. If only you'd been here 14 years ago you could have been King Clown of the TB supporters. They all said to be grateful for what TB had accomplished versus the past 20 years. They stated his wins per year and his occassional upsets or strong starts to seasons, etc.
Bottom line was he brought us to a certain level and then stagnated the program. You have to say thanks for what was accomplished but the best predictor of the future is the past and that means with BB its missing NCAA tournaments and being a mid-tier at best year in year out ACC bball program.
If that's good enough for you then by all means continue to slobber over BB and act like we are blessed to have him but don't pointlessly debate the many fans who have aspirations for more so have the willingness to make a change and see if we can do better. They know it might get worse but winners never accept mediocrity and losers accept it as comfortable and safe - enter Judge Keller...
|
|
|
|
|
|
All-In [44050]
TigerPulse: 81%
Posts: 32965
Joined: 2/22/03
|
Mid-tier at best?
Feb 26, 2023, 3:48 PM
|
|
We are fourth out of 15 ACC teams this year.
We are in the top third of the conference in ACC wins since 2017.
That’s not mid-tier at best, it’s upper-tier at best.
If you want to call it mid-tier on average, that would be more correct. And that’s still way better than we have historically been, and way better than it should be based on how poorly basketball is supported at Clemson.
|
|
|
|
|
|
110%er [6982]
TigerPulse: 100%
Posts: 6354
Joined: 9/21/04
|
You are just a clown
Feb 24, 2023, 10:00 PM
|
|
Hey, I'm grateful Clemson basketball is doing better than expected this year. But we were expected to be terrible because of our coach. Facts. We have feasted upon a weak ACC, we May or May not make the NCAA tournament. If we don't, Brad needs to be fired or resign, end of story.
|
|
|
|
|
|
CU Guru [1555]
TigerPulse: 100%
Posts: 1811
Joined: 7/11/13
|
Re: It’s amazing how many of you are so dismissive about us winning 20 games
Feb 24, 2023, 10:53 PM
|
|
Man seriously just #### stop come on you make yourself look worse and worse … seriously do better
|
|
|
|
|
|
Scout Team [153]
TigerPulse: 65%
Posts: 254
Joined: 4/16/16
|
Re: It’s amazing how many of you are so dismissive about us winning 20 games
Feb 25, 2023, 12:52 AM
|
|
Just look at Brads Out of Conference schedule every year. Its made to win a bunch of games. SOS is killing us this year.
|
|
|
|
|
|
CU Guru [1938]
TigerPulse: 96%
Posts: 2280
Joined: 1/13/18
|
Re: It’s amazing how many of you are so dismissive about us winning 20 games
Feb 26, 2023, 1:00 PM
|
|
Right, it’s Perry’s amazingly stupid. 20 wins is almost a set guarantee of a bid and a good seeding, but you’d never be a to feel from this crowd.
|
|
|
|
|
|
CU Guru [1384]
TigerPulse: 100%
Posts: 1144
Joined: 11/30/98
|
Re: It’s amazing how many of you are so dismissive about us winning 20 games
1
1
Feb 26, 2023, 2:49 PM
|
|
My opinion is that it’s a good resume bullet, but really means little in the overall report card for this team.
If it was, it would be one of Brownell’s contractual bonus lines. That tells me it is not what the administration will ultimately grade for a successful program.
An NIT berth is a paid bonus. This unfortunately incentivizes lowering the bar. It also means that the admin will accept postseason participation. NCAA or NIT.
We’ve seen really good teams get 20 wins, we have also seen good teams not get 20 wins. Don’t see it as a success determinate in this day and time.
Team looked great yesterday, and I’m hopeful for Tuesday night. Go Tigers!
|
|
|
|
|
|
CU Guru [1025]
TigerPulse: 100%
Posts: 639
Joined: 1/9/16
|
Re: It’s amazing how many of you are so dismissive about us winning 20 games
Feb 26, 2023, 3:32 PM
|
|
I’m amazed at how dismissive some are of being a postseason joke. How can you not be tired of this? Do you see 20 win banners in the rafters?
|
|
|
|
|
|
Head Coach [758]
TigerPulse: 98%
Posts: 79
Joined: 8/18/05
|
Re: It’s amazing how many of you are so dismissive about us winning 20 games
Feb 26, 2023, 4:34 PM
|
|
Beat Virginia
|
|
|
|
|
|
Head Coach [758]
TigerPulse: 98%
Posts: 79
Joined: 8/18/05
|
Re: It’s amazing how many of you are so dismissive about us winning 20 games
Feb 26, 2023, 4:38 PM
|
|
Beat Virginia
|
|
|
|
|
|
CU Medallion [50854]
TigerPulse: 100%
Posts: 17107
Joined: 5/21/08
|
Posting to let you know my TD was the result
Feb 26, 2023, 5:01 PM
|
|
of late afternoon drowsiness and not intentional- been a tough day for the extended family.
Message was edited by: clover65®
|
|
|
|
|
|
Replies: 110
| visibility 1
|
|
|
50
