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CU Guru [1280]
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Coach Brownell
Feb 4, 2020, 11:57 AM
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First of all I like Brad Brownell. I think he is a good rep. for Clemson and I DO think he is a very good coach. I do think recruiting is the major issue that needs to be improved and I do finally see some positives there. I agree 10 years is a long time to wait. I will readily admit that if a move had been made after last year to go another direction though I like Brad I could have understood that move. I do NOT however understand ANY reason to make a move THIS year. Anyone with any knowledge of what was coming back should know that this was destined to really be a down year. We have actually already won more ACC games than anyone should have expected this year. Our non-conference record may keep us out of the NIT since it is much harder to get in the NIT than it used to be. Bottom line if a move was going to be made I could understand it last year but this year NO ! Let's go ahead and see how things work out next year with the new recruits.
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Oculus Spirit [83625]
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I don't see the advantage of making the change this year...
Feb 4, 2020, 12:06 PM
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I think Brownell is a good coach and good guy too. The lack of consistency is not good.
We can say what we want about Oliver Purnell, but if you look at his resume compared to all other coaches in Clemson history, he had obviously created momentum when he left. OP showed us what is possible at Clemson.
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Heisman Winner [105574]
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Oh boy, Judge Karen is going to want to speak with your
Feb 4, 2020, 12:18 PM
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manager when she sees you praising Purnell.
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All-In [44075]
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Settle down, Princess.
Feb 4, 2020, 2:55 PM
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I think OP did a lot of good for us. I appreciate what he did in terms of turning around Shyatt's mess, implementing his system, and creating an excitement we hadn't had since Rick Barnes was our coach. Purnell was a great program builder, and was just what we needed after Shyatt. I've said all of these things many times on here.
However, it seemed obvious that he had not only reached his ceiling at Clemson, but that some lean years were likely ahead. He missed on several key recruits, and only had ONE player committed for his last recruiting class. His last signed class, which was thought to be top 20 nationally, was obviously overrated based on those players and their production (or lack thereof) in college. Jennings was the best of the bunch, and he did okay but not great at Clemson, and the others transferred elsewhere and were very underwhelming. These issues can't be ignored here, and I'm not afraid to bring them up when OP's tenure here is romanticized.
I'm amazed at the people who continue to talk about OP as if he were a perfect coach, while completely ignoring our consistent inability to adjust our press or our offense when they weren't effective. It was truly feast or famine. It's one thing to beat up on weak non-conference teams using the press against inferior guards, but another thing entirely to keep using it when ACC teams with good guard play got countless easy baskets. In this context, it's laughable to see people complain about Brownell, when Brad has never been as hard-headed as OP when it comes to making adjustments.
The biggest head scratcher is our fans still pining for OP - a man who not only bailed on Clemson, but did so in insulting fashion by not even meeting with his players to let them know. His coaching successes should not overshadow the fact that he clearly wasn't a Clemson man. I like for our coaches to have a love and respect for our fine university, as well as the teams they coach. Purnell cleary didn't have that.
Wanting him back despite his obvious coaching deficiencies, as well as his lack of respect for Clemson or the student-athletes he coached, is akin to wanting your ex-girlfriend back after she dumped you via email. If you're good with Clemson lowering its standards like that, knock yourself out. I'm not okay with it.
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All-In [27391]
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Re: Settle down, Princess.
Feb 4, 2020, 3:18 PM
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Sorry. Only one TU allowed,
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Orange Blooded [2457]
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Re: Settle down, Princess.
Feb 4, 2020, 4:33 PM
[ in reply to Settle down, Princess. ] |
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The whole beat up on weak teams and stumbled against ACC is fairly inaccurate. His record the final 3 years was 3rd or 4th best in conference over that time. Some quick OOC comparisons:
ACC vs B1G Challenge OP - 5-2 Brownell 3-6
Vs South Carolina OP 6-1 Brownell - 5-5
Losses to mid majors - i.e. non-P5 and Big East schools OP - 3 - UAB (2004), Elon (2005), UNC-Charlotte (2008, post UNC heartbreaker) Brownell - 15 - ODU (2010), CofC (2011), Coastal Carolina (2011), UTEP (2011), Hawaii (2011), Coastal Carolina (2012 again), UMASS (2013), SMU (2014 NIT), Winthrop (2014), Garner Webb (2014), UMASS (2015), Oakland (2017 NIT), Temple (2017), Wichita State (2019 NIT), Yale (2019)
Purnell is not some god-send to coaching, but he showed it is very possible to win at Clemson. You have to take care of non-conference and then go at least .500 in ACC. Purnell was ranked in the top 25 at some point in 4 of 7 seasons. Brownell has been ranked in only 2 of 10. Rick Barnes was even ranked in each of his 4 years here. Our OOC scheduling is not remarkably better than the past. Purnell even beat Butler the year they were National Runner Up to Duke.
Clemson fans should expect to be in and around the top 25 and in the NCAA Tournament. Purnell and Barnes have shown that can be expected. It is on the admin to find a coach who can do that and reward them so they stay. Brownell has been here 10 years and shown he cannot get to that level, thus it is time to move on.
The 1 person recruiting class is also a bit of a misnomer. We had 2 open scholarships. We landed Marcus Thornton and missed on another recruit, so we rolled the scholarship over. It's not like we had 4 slots and only filled 1. It's also hard to judge how those kids would have been if in the system they were recruited for. If anything, it speaks volumes that OP could make the tournament playing Noel Johnson 14 min a game - for how much people rag on that kid.
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Orange Blooded [2031]
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PREACH Orange blooded....
Feb 4, 2020, 8:49 PM
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Why is it that folks act like there's only two possible head coaches for Clemson, Purnell and Brownell. OP teams were better by far and while they had limitations, they were predictable and fun to watch. Brownell's...not so much. To Judge and others, not wanting to bring back Purnell, but give us someone else who can pivot off the football success and give us a fighting chance before my last days. I appreciate the win in Chapel Hill, but no more years extended, please.
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All-TigerNet [10134]
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Re: Settle down, Princess.
Feb 4, 2020, 10:57 PM
[ in reply to Settle down, Princess. ] |
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I think OP did a lot of good for us. I appreciate what he did in terms of turning around Shyatt's mess, implementing his system, and creating an excitement we hadn't had since Rick Barnes was our coach. Purnell was a great program builder, and was just what we needed after Shyatt. I've said all of these things many times on here.
However, it seemed obvious that he had not only reached his ceiling at Clemson, but that some lean years were likely ahead. He missed on several key recruits, and only had ONE player committed for his last recruiting class. His last signed class, which was thought to be top 20 nationally, was obviously overrated based on those players and their production (or lack thereof) in college. Jennings was the best of the bunch, and he did okay but not great at Clemson, and the others transferred elsewhere and were very underwhelming. These issues can't be ignored here, and I'm not afraid to bring them up when OP's tenure here is romanticized.
I'm amazed at the people who continue to talk about OP as if he were a perfect coach, while completely ignoring our consistent inability to adjust our press or our offense when they weren't effective. It was truly feast or famine. It's one thing to beat up on weak non-conference teams using the press against inferior guards, but another thing entirely to keep using it when ACC teams with good guard play got countless easy baskets. In this context, it's laughable to see people complain about Brownell, when Brad has never been as hard-headed as OP when it comes to making adjustments.
The biggest head scratcher is our fans still pining for OP - a man who not only bailed on Clemson, but did so in insulting fashion by not even meeting with his players to let them know. His coaching successes should not overshadow the fact that he clearly wasn't a Clemson man. I like for our coaches to have a love and respect for our fine university, as well as the teams they coach. Purnell cleary didn't have that.
Wanting him back despite his obvious coaching deficiencies, as well as his lack of respect for Clemson or the student-athletes he coached, is akin to wanting your ex-girlfriend back after she dumped you via email. If you're good with Clemson lowering its standards like that, knock yourself out. I'm not okay with it.
Hey, you have to defend your job to the end!
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All-In [27391]
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Re: I don't see the advantage of making the change this year...
Feb 4, 2020, 12:20 PM
[ in reply to I don't see the advantage of making the change this year... ] |
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Perhaps that is true but there is more to being a coach than wins and loses. Everyone forgets that OP QUIT on Clemson. Clemson did not run him off nor fire him. He QUIT. So stop the OP love.
Bringing in a new coach will set the program back for years and now is NOT the time. Apparently we are bringing in some new talent that will help. Recruiting is difficult at Clemson and it is made much more difficult with the apathetic attitude of the student fans. imo
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Oculus Spirit [83625]
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there are different opinions on OP's departure...
Feb 4, 2020, 12:28 PM
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there may be things more important than wins and losses, but it cannot be said that basketball was ignored during his tenure. It was exciting and fun to watch. The consistency his last 4 to 5 years is unmatched in Clemson basketball history. No bad fans. No complaints about facilities. No excuses with recruiting.
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110%er [8095]
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Re: there are different opinions on OP's departure...
Feb 4, 2020, 12:38 PM
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there may be things more important than wins and losses, but it cannot be said that basketball was ignored during his tenure. It was exciting and fun to watch. The consistency his last 4 to 5 years is unmatched in Clemson basketball history. No bad fans. No complaints about facilities. No excuses with recruiting.
OP consistently failed to win games at the end of the season (tournament games) but was hell to beat early in the year. He saw things were not sustainable at Clemson as the fans were getting restless getting to the tournament and failing to win a game. So like every good Clemson bball coach he took the first train out. He left at a point where we lost an entire recruiting class. He also failed to bring attention to or raise money for decent facilities. CBB did both and suffered through the construction phase of the program. We finally have a decent facility and recruiting has improved yet you are ready to pull the rug out and start over with a coach no one has ever heard of from a DIII school. I say that because with the new SEC TV contract we have lost a lot of ground so there is no money to waste on a program which has been marginal for 100 years when the ever hungry cash cow has an ever increasing need for cash
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Oculus Spirit [83625]
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Re: there are different opinions on OP's departure...
Feb 4, 2020, 12:41 PM
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"We finally have a decent facility and recruiting has improved yet you are ready to pull the rug out and start over with a coach no one has ever heard of from a DIII school."
Did you not read what I said previously?
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110%er [5436]
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All-In [44075]
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Yeah, I sure do miss getting humiliated in the first round
Feb 4, 2020, 2:57 PM
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by lower seeded teams. That was so much fun!
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All-In [37023]
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Yeah,
Feb 4, 2020, 3:20 PM
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it's much more fun to get beat by lesser out of conference foes and the bottom dwellers of the ACC
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All-In [44075]
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Guess what?
Feb 4, 2020, 3:35 PM
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Also, here is a picture of Brad at an NCAA Sweet 16 press conference. Has Purnell ever been to one of these?
No, that's right, OP never even made it to the first weekend of the NCAA Tournament.
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Legend [16167]
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The Sweet Sixteen presser line was a classic***
Feb 4, 2020, 3:39 PM
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All-In [37023]
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Back at ya!
Feb 4, 2020, 3:48 PM
[ in reply to Guess what? ] |
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Most years Brad doesn't even make it to the tournament.
Fight Me!
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Legend [16167]
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Like OP never lost bad OOC games or to the ACC bottom
Feb 4, 2020, 3:46 PM
[ in reply to Yeah, ] |
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feeders
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All-In [37023]
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you want to know the greatest part
Feb 4, 2020, 3:50 PM
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you guys turn the fact that we don't like the inconsistency to saying we don't like Brad!
I haven't seen that said at all!
I just want Clemson Basketball to win more consistently!
Are you happy being one of the 3 wins to the 2 bottom feeders in the ACC? Are you happy losing to Yale and the coots?
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Legend [16167]
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link to where I said that?***
Feb 4, 2020, 3:51 PM
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Legend [16167]
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ANY of it***
Feb 4, 2020, 3:53 PM
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All-In [37023]
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It's a generic statement
Feb 4, 2020, 4:09 PM
[ in reply to link to where I said that?*** ] |
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The ones that defend Brownell the most must be happy with the inconsistency! If that's not you I apologize but coming in on Judge's side would say that you follow suit with him.
Almost any conversation that starts with our basketball team and folks not being happy with the results is immediately spun by Judge into "people hate Brad."
I don't care personally if Brad stays or Brad goes I just want to have a consistent product put on the floor. Win the games we should and get a couple of big surprise wins. I also know that some losses happen, just because. the issue is the just because happen too often.
Again, I apologize if I spoke out of turn.
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Legend [16167]
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I'll accept your apology for projecting a bunch of #### I
Feb 4, 2020, 4:15 PM
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never said onto me and lumping me in with other people who apparently hurt your feelings...We all make mistakes
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All-In [37023]
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My feelings are just fine
Feb 4, 2020, 4:20 PM
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and ok
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Legend [16167]
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yeah, obviously***
Feb 4, 2020, 4:25 PM
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Legend [16167]
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and another***
Feb 4, 2020, 5:10 PM
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Commissioner [963]
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Re: It's a generic statement
Feb 4, 2020, 6:29 PM
[ in reply to It's a generic statement ] |
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Could it also be that those doing the "defending" of Brownell also realize that "The Process" for showing consistent success at Clemson in basketball is much more complex than hiring a coach and then expecting him, within 3-4 years, to be at the maximum output that their version of the program will ever be?
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All-In [44075]
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This times a thousand!***
Feb 4, 2020, 10:50 PM
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All-In [37023]
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Like I said, I don't dislike Brownell
Feb 5, 2020, 8:40 AM
[ in reply to Re: It's a generic statement ] |
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and no one is screaming 3-4 years. We are on year 10
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Commissioner [963]
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Re: Like I said, I don't dislike Brownell
Feb 5, 2020, 9:05 AM
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And if you follow the program, you'll know there was a MAJOR shift in support that started four seasons ago. Since that season, Clemson has produced two 20-win seasons, including a top 3 year in the history of the program that included a Sweet 16 appearance, and even most of the critics will admit recruiting has seen an uptick...and not a slight one.
Return on investment. As an AD, I'm seeing a return on the investment into improved facilities and increased support on staff. I'm going to be much more likely to take the first hand-full of years with a large grain of salt, considering. And when you have that clearly in hand, along with a coach THAT DOES NOT WANT TO LEAVE, your decision is pretty easy, in my opinion.
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All-In [37023]
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I don't disagree with any of that
Feb 5, 2020, 9:09 AM
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all I am saying is most fans do follow the team fairly closely and we want to see the results on the court in the form of a consistent product not the roller coaster of emotions that has followed it the last several years.
It may be coming, it may not be. I would rather it happen for sure as an alumni of the school and a fan in general.
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Legend [16167]
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Oculus Spirit [82117]
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Are you using the word 'triggers' as a noun, or a verb?
Feb 4, 2020, 4:56 PM
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TIA
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Legend [16167]
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yes***
Feb 4, 2020, 5:09 PM
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Oculus Spirit [83625]
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I prefer getting embarrassed much earlier in the season...
Feb 4, 2020, 5:58 PM
[ in reply to Yeah, ] |
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so I can spend more time complaining about the lack of interest in basketball.
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Orange Blooded [2931]
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Re: Yeah, I sure do miss getting humiliated in the first round
Feb 4, 2020, 6:28 PM
[ in reply to Yeah, I sure do miss getting humiliated in the first round ] |
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by lower seeded teams. That was so much fun!
As compared to losing in embarrassing fashion to Oakland Univ in the NIT at home? Just saying there’s some disappointment to spread all around.
Now I personally think Brownell has a chance to make big progress next season. However along comes the game on Saturday night, and once again I’m questioning myself again.
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Heisman Winner [105574]
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Where to start...
Feb 4, 2020, 12:56 PM
[ in reply to Re: there are different opinions on OP's departure... ] |
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"OP consistently failed to win games at the end of the season (tournament games)" - Well he did get us to the ACC Tournament final one year.
"He saw things were not sustainable at Clemson as the fans were getting restless getting to the tournament and failing to win a game. So like every good Clemson bball coach he took the first train out." - If I recall he left to become the highest paid coach in college basketball. That's a heck of a first train out.
"you are ready to pull the rug out and start over with a coach no one has ever heard of from a DIII school." - We would not hire a DIII coach. That's an absurd statement to make and especially absurd directing it at franc who never remotely suggested it.
"there is no money to waste on a program which has been marginal for 100 years" - then why did we invest in facilities upgrades? Was it to remain marginal for another 100 years? We've invested in the facilities, we need to invest in a coach who won't keep us stuck in mediocrity. Maybe that coach is Brad. Maybe it's someone else. But an investment needs to be made and results need to be achieved.
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Oculus Spirit [83625]
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what's really odd...
Feb 4, 2020, 1:04 PM
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is how terrible OP was at DePaul. He was consistently successful at every stop in his career prior to that.
I brought up OP, not to argue for bringing him back, but as an example that Clemson basketball could be consistent.
As far as OP "quitting" on Clemson, it is my understanding that Clemson had the opportunity to put up more money to keep him, but would not budge.
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All-TigerNet [14493]
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Re: what's really odd...
Feb 4, 2020, 1:08 PM
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franc1968®
Posts: 56,839 Registered: 1/1/07 what's really odd... Posted: Feb 4, 2020 1:04 PM
is how terrible OP was at DePaul. He was consistently successful at every stop in his career prior to that.
I brought up OP, not to argue for bringing him back, but as an example that Clemson basketball could be consistent.
As far as OP "quitting" on Clemson, it is my understanding that Clemson had the opportunity to put up more money to keep him, but would not budge.
LMAO, OP, MUCH LIKE BARNES COULD NOT KEEP HIS ZIPPER UP. NOT TO MENTION SEVERAL OF HIS PLAYERS WERE GOING TO TRANSFER OUT HAD HE STAYED. BUT HEY, KEEP PROPPING THE GUY UP.
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Heisman Winner [105574]
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First, that's a rumor, and the same rumor used for Barnes.
Feb 4, 2020, 1:20 PM
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Second, the transfers were a rumor too.
Third, nobody in this thread is "PROPPING THE GUY UP." When speaking of his record, only facts are being used...you know, as opposed to your rumors.
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Oculus Spirit [83625]
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I'm amazed at how emotionally invested people are...
Feb 4, 2020, 2:26 PM
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they aren't even reading what is being said. They see a name and give a knee-jerk reaction.
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All-In [44075]
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Players transferring wasn't just rumor.
Feb 4, 2020, 3:26 PM
[ in reply to First, that's a rumor, and the same rumor used for Barnes. ] |
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Devin Booker was the highest profile player who considered transferring. There was a decent amount of coverage about this then. Here is one article that mentioned it (from the AP, no less):
https://www.goupstate.com/article/NC/20100413/News/605151245/SJ/
Several others were threatening to transfer too.
This thread isn't one of your best performances, Princess. You've stated multiple things that are clearly incorrect, which I have politely corrected for you via links which you can read at your convenience.
Don't worry, I'm not the type of guy to save your factually incorrect posts and throw them in your face later.
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All-In [37023]
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Listen here
Feb 4, 2020, 3:47 PM
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########!
At no point has anyone, particularly Franc or GWP, even suggested we need to replace Brad in this thread except maybe the OP who is a coot. The only comparison being made, for the most part by those two, is the fact that in his time here OP had fan support and packed the gym and made the tourney, whether we lost in the opener or not. We were competing with the facilities like they were and recruiting at a decent level and no one was saying anything needs to change other than hopefully start winning that first game in the tourney.
The only flaw in Brad is the inconsistency which you seem to be ok with. If you would take a half of a step back you will see the inconsistencies too and they have been here for 10 years.....yes 10 years!!! The only thing people on this site for the most part talk about negatively with Brad is the inconsistency. Win some surprise big games, lose to the garbage teams in the conference and out of conference games you shouldn't. THE END!
Then come the excuses....Facilities this, fan support that......to get those things simply WIN MORE CONSISTENTLY! Nobody says win them all, just win more often. You know why people turned out for OP....He won! It was fun to watch!! If Brad can do that the other stuff will come! PERIOD!
Can Brad right the ship!?!?!?!? God I hope so, but this high horse, throne, you sit on is getting very tiresome.
Only thing I haven't figured out yet is what your draw is to Coach Brownell that you defend him seemingly with everything you've got so fiercely when in some threads no one even goes directly after him?
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All-In [44075]
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Re: Listen here
Feb 4, 2020, 10:56 PM
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110%er [8681]
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Re: Players transferring wasn't just rumor.
Feb 4, 2020, 4:01 PM
[ in reply to Players transferring wasn't just rumor. ] |
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That article states that players were considering transferring because OP left, not if he stayed like deroberts claimed.
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Heisman Winner [105574]
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You better go ahead and put your manager on notice
Feb 4, 2020, 4:04 PM
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Karen will demand to speak with him immediately.
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All-TigerNet [14493]
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110%er [8681]
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Re: Players transferring wasn't just rumor.
Feb 4, 2020, 4:27 PM
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"Brownell inherits some challenges with the Tigers. He has experience in point guard Demontez Stitt and forward Jerai Grant, but also a group of four freshman from this past year Purnell had built the future around — some who were not too happy about their coach leaving. Union County product Devin Booker, the brother of star Trevor Booker (Union), has talked about a transfer"
I was in school with a cousin of the Bookers at the time and and he never mentioned that they had any disdain towards OP.
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Heisman Winner [105574]
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Something isn't right at DePaul
Feb 4, 2020, 1:17 PM
[ in reply to what's really odd... ] |
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They've made the tournament twice since 1992 and have had some really good coaches. This is pure speculation, but I think OP believed he could recruit Chicago better than his predecessors did and that turned out to not be the case. I can only imagine the things you have to do to recruit the AAU circuit in Chicago and DePaul is not the school to do that from. But I agree, it's surprising he wasn't able to at least be competitive, even though the Big East was such a basketball monster.
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All-In [44075]
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Legend [16167]
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yeah, there was no chance to match the offer, OP just left***
Feb 4, 2020, 3:36 PM
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All-In [44075]
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Legend [16167]
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he tried to Fake News you***
Feb 4, 2020, 3:40 PM
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Legend [16167]
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Link to where he was the highest paid coach?***
Feb 4, 2020, 3:35 PM
[ in reply to Where to start... ] |
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Heisman Winner [105574]
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Nope, I just looked it up and I was wrong about that
Feb 4, 2020, 4:03 PM
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I wasn't 100% sure about it to begin with which is why I said "If I recall."
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Legend [16167]
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So you Fake News it, but it's OK because you admitted you
Feb 4, 2020, 4:24 PM
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might not know WTH you were talking about in the first place?
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Legend [16167]
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the truth just keeps on triggering***
Feb 4, 2020, 4:46 PM
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Heisman Winner [105574]
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I don't think "triggering" means what you think it means
Feb 4, 2020, 5:32 PM
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I'm definitely not triggered and don't even understand why you would reply to your own post with that?
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Oculus Spirit [82117]
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Maybe he's just a Roy Rogers fan.
Feb 4, 2020, 5:37 PM
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Legend [16167]
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Heisman Winner [105574]
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Sounds like you got triggered by a TD. You ok?
Feb 4, 2020, 10:43 PM
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We should get to the bottom of this! Let’s see, you took a shot at me, who do you think gave you a TD?
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Legend [16167]
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I'm sorry I hurt your feelings, if you could give me a
Feb 4, 2020, 11:22 PM
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signal or use a code word the next time you misremember something, I promise I won't call you on it
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Legend [16167]
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110%er [5436]
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All-In [44075]
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LOL at Shyatt Jr.
Feb 4, 2020, 11:12 PM
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What is that title based on, other than your obvious dislike for Brownell and your forgetfulness regarding how much better we are now than we were then?
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Legend [16167]
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Varsity [237]
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Re: Coach Brownell
Feb 4, 2020, 1:12 PM
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You guys that are STILL on the brad bandwagon have to be smoking something. He has produced 1 and I will repeat 1 decent team that made it to the Sweet 16--once---in 10 years. There are others that would be good Clemson Men also---but its not him- "lets give him one more year". Lots of you guys live on that. He has had time enough. Time to move on Brad. 2nd greatest saying .."If we fire him who could we get". You are kidding me hopefully- Coaches are replaced all the time. We are ACC basketball with good facilities. We could attract a number of people. FIRE BRAD!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
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Team Captain [480]
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Re: Coach Brownell
Feb 4, 2020, 1:40 PM
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Agree 100%
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Hall of Famer [24239]
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Tell 'em u6c coot
Feb 4, 2020, 2:16 PM
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