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Oculus Spirit [41164]
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Is it bad that I don't care strongly about masks?
Sep 22, 2021, 10:36 AM
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If it's required, cool
If not, whatever
You want my kid to wear one in school for the next 3 weeks? sure, why not?
My neighbor goes on these rants about how bad it is for the kids, etc. He just texted us a pic of his email that exempts his kid from the mandate and is all proud of being a bad@$$ for making it happen. He always tries to imply that I am very much in favor of masks and mask mandates.
I'm not and I really DGAF. I guess I am lazy and I know that complaining ain't changing anything, so I can openly fight it for not much gain or just surrender to the flow.
Should I be caring and actively opposing this in the schools?
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Heisman Winner [81117]
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It's definitely not good for their social and psychological
Sep 22, 2021, 10:43 AM
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development, and there's really no evidence based rationale for masks in schools. We look to be one of the only countries trying to force this magic talisman on our kids to ease the fears of adults. It's a pretty backwards strategy IMO.
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Heisman Winner [82183]
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maybe it would be good for the masked kids
Sep 22, 2021, 10:48 AM
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if the maskless kids bully them
make them tough, right?
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Heisman Winner [81117]
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Bully's should really utilize masks if they want to avoid
Sep 22, 2021, 10:52 AM
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identification.
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All-TigerNet [5722]
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Heisman Winner [81117]
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Nah, we'd homeschool. No way you could get my kid to
Sep 22, 2021, 1:17 PM
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wear a mask more than 30 seconds anyway.
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TigerNet HOFer [134314]
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Anderson district 5 has offered $100 for students
Sep 22, 2021, 10:44 AM
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to get vaccinated. It still requires parental consent, but a buncha stupid parents are out protesting that somehow the district is taking away their rights. Jeezus, people.....
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Heisman Winner [81117]
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Yay, more crack dealer like marketing!***
Sep 22, 2021, 10:49 AM
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Ultimate Tiger [35073]
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You can get addicted to vaccines?***
Sep 22, 2021, 12:59 PM
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Heisman Winner [81117]
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You can get addicted to anything. Look at the people already
Sep 22, 2021, 1:17 PM
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clamoring for their booster shot as if they've only got a few days before they get dope sick.
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Ultimate Tiger [35073]
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Not sure I would frame it that way***
Sep 22, 2021, 1:18 PM
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Ultimate Tiger [33164]
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Ultimate Tiger [35073]
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Unfortunately, for my 13 year-old 8th grader,...
Sep 22, 2021, 12:59 PM
[ in reply to Anderson district 5 has offered $100 for students ] |
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that only applies to high school students. Not sure why they didn't let it also include middle-school students eligible for the vaccine.
My son (already vaccinated and 13) and my daughter who turns 12 next month already had big plans for how they were going to spend their $100.
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Varsity [104]
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Re: Unfortunately, for my 13 year-old 8th grader,...
Sep 22, 2021, 3:08 PM
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All-In [26968]
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It's not about the mask, it's about FREEDOM
Sep 22, 2021, 10:44 AM
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Yeah, I'm with you on this. Not a big deal.
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Clemson Icon [26049]
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Everything is or nothing is. Don't throw the baby out here.***
Sep 22, 2021, 10:50 AM
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All-In [26968]
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Every rule in life, in all contexts, reduces freedom.
Sep 22, 2021, 10:51 AM
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That's pretty much the definition of a rule. Of course, we must protect the freedoms that are essential.
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Clemson Icon [26049]
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A comment making fun of people who voice that issue
Sep 22, 2021, 12:47 PM
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would indicate you've abandoned it, that the concern itself is worthy of derision, rather than a discussion of how freedoms should be protected.
No, I disagree with your comment. A rule does not have to reduce freedom. Some do. Some protect it. Knowing which is which is the issue, but you just make fun of people who are concerned about the difference.
A rule that says I can't break into your house, or dump my waste into the river, doesn't reduce my freedom; it protects yours. A rule that says I have to register my religous belief would restrict my freedom. Within those two extremes is where the prinicple has to be understood and applied. You are apparently not willling to do this.
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All-In [26968]
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No, the rule against breaking into someone's house
Sep 22, 2021, 12:49 PM
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would inhibit someone's freedom to do so, by definition. But it would impede someone else's freedom of life and liberty more, so that's why everyone agrees it is a good rule.
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Clemson Icon [26049]
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Stealing fits no definition of freedom. Nice try, no dice.***
Sep 22, 2021, 1:00 PM
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All-In [26968]
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OK.
Sep 22, 2021, 1:06 PM
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"the power or right to act, speak, or think as one wants without hindrance or restraint." (from the dictionary)
Anything that intends to keep you from doing anything you want at any time, is a hinderance to freedom. I think you're misunderstanding my intent...in no way do I think that means a law against stealing is a bad thing. I'm just talking on an abstract level here...about concepts.
100% freedom could only be accomplished in a completely anarchistic society, and it would be utterly disastrous. Like, everyone would die.
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Clemson Icon [26049]
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OK
Sep 22, 2021, 1:15 PM
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Fiddling with definitions is a low bar in a discussion. You know what is meant by the word 'freedom' in a social/governmental context. For instance, in "...life, liberty, and the pursuit ...", you know they didn't mean any unrestricted behavior by the word 'liberty'. The definition of the word "liberty" in wiki is almost the exact same terms you chose, but you know that is not what the founders were referring to.
You searched for a 'dictionary' definition. I can do that too. Here is Webster:
the quality or state of being free, such as the absence of necessity, coercion, or constraint in choice or action, liberation from slavery or restraint or from the power of another : INDEPENDENCE, the quality or state of being exempt or released usually from something onerous, freedom from care, EASE, FACILITY, the quality of being frank, open, or outspoken
See? Not unrestricted. "Necessary" is the word that needs to be understood, not the use of the word 'freedom' itself. Thus, some rules protect freedom, some destroy it. Knowing which is a matter of understanding principle and applicate.
Can't believe we had to stoop to this.
Edit: added the entire definition to show the point, that dueling 3rd party definitions is not what we were talking about. Freedom from govt intrusion is the issue raised by anti-maskers, and that definition of freedom has never implied no restrictions at all.
Message was edited by: CUintulsa®
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All-In [26968]
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This is an example where we agree on the issue
Sep 22, 2021, 1:31 PM
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But are parsing semantics. No big deal.
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Clemson Icon [26049]
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I was typing this before you posted, so I had to C&P over to
Sep 22, 2021, 1:50 PM
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here, so thanks for that. I was writing to apologize. I have no issue with you. I will admit to being 'up to here' with the way covid and all its sub issues have been not merely politicized, but purposely highjacked for partisan purposes, with the intent of dividing us for personal gain. We literally shot holes in the boat, not caring about tomorrow, as long as political aims were accomplished today.
I admit to getting triggered by things that even look like that, even if they are not that. You were not doing the group-against-group thing, but I reacted as though you were. Totally my fault. Not on you at all.
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All-In [26968]
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Again, nothing hurt at all. I enjoy discussions.
Sep 22, 2021, 1:52 PM
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As long as it's not ad hominem (there was none of that here), it's all good to me.
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Asst Coach [820]
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Re: I was typing this before you posted, so I had to C&P over to
Sep 22, 2021, 7:50 PM
[ in reply to I was typing this before you posted, so I had to C&P over to ] |
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But do you find it all ironic that you were doing the group vs group thing?
I commend you for apologizing, few have gumption to do so anymore, but having just read this thread, it looks like you fell into the very trap you are condemning.
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All-In [28802]
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All-In [26968]
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The derision, which I hope was perceived
Sep 22, 2021, 12:57 PM
[ in reply to A comment making fun of people who voice that issue ] |
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in the light-hearted manner it was intended, really comes from a place of agreement with what you are saying here. When we make a big deal out of "freedom" when it comes to just a mask, then it weakens the fight against encroachments upon freedoms that I feel are more important, like the one you mentioned about religion. It's akin to calling "everything racist". We've watered down the word "racist" so much, that it no longer is a powerful word.
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Clemson Icon [26049]
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Lighthearted. Got it. I will agree that the use of the
Sep 22, 2021, 1:07 PM
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freedom thing is a bit on the edge when the issue is as noninvasive as masks. But it is not per se reactionary in this case. The govt's actions regarding covid lead me to greater skepticism rather than trust regarding anything it does. This has been politicized since Jan of 2020, so while my reaction to masks is benign I am slow to make fun of anyone who reacts against any mandate. When trust is abused for personal gain, you get what you get.
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Clemson Icon [26049]
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Yes, bad. Sort of. Maybe not. No big deal. What irritates me
Sep 22, 2021, 10:47 AM
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about it is how the 'follow the science' side of politics made masks the reason we have covid in the US, which no science said ever. That has never gone away, in the way we now administer and react to masks, and the social division it causes. The left went 'burn it all down', and maybe they did. We'll see if we recover from this, pardon the pun. But I think not.
But yes, about wearing them ... eh, who cares?
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All-In [28802]
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Yes, but too many on the right are just being reactionary
Sep 22, 2021, 11:09 AM
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As usual with this stuff, the debates are less about actual science than they are about attitudes and team politics.
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Heisman Winner [81117]
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Let's talk actual science. Last study I read, surgical masks
Sep 22, 2021, 11:13 AM
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were ~10% effective at slowing the spread, while cloth were ~5%. Now, if you're 78 years old and 350 pounds, 5-10% is 5-10%....But for the rest of us, is that really worth all of the effort? Many still seem to just assume they're making some sort of big difference, but I haven't seen any numbers that point to that.
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All-In [28802]
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There are all kinds of studies, but...
Sep 22, 2021, 11:20 AM
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they all show that mask wearing works on an individual level reduce transmission of the virus, while they also work somewhat less well to reduce the spread on a population level. Remember, if you're getting 100k new cases per day like we are now, a 5-10% reduction is 5-10k people. If 1% of confirmed cases are dying, that means 50-100 fewer deaths per day.
But what will really get us past the mask stuff is more vaccination.
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Heisman Winner [81117]
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Everything I have read shows they are marginally effective
Sep 22, 2021, 11:39 AM
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Certainly not worthy of being the be all end all solution they're pushed as (aside from the vaccine), nor are the benefits worth forcing young children to wear them. I think many discount the social and psychological impacts that wearing a mask all day will have on younger kids, it's not natural. Most of the people who say it isn't a big deal wouldn't muzzle their dogs all day, they'd think that was cruel.
I think we've been a bit oversold on the vaccines as well. I doubt we'll ever get 'back to normal' in the sense most want to believe.
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All-In [28802]
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Right, they're for mitigation
Sep 22, 2021, 11:43 AM
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They make things safer, but they're not an optimal strategy.
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Heisman Winner [81117]
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Evidence seems to indicate they don't make things that
Sep 22, 2021, 11:54 AM
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much safer, if at all though. Every environment I've been in where they're required, almost nobody is wearing them correctly. Expecting kids to wear them correctly for the duration of a school day and pretending it's making a difference seems laughable to me. Based on the research I've read, a much better strategy would be increasing air flow/fresh air in places at risk of covid outbreaks.
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All-Time Great [88702]
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Which evidence are you referencing?***
Sep 22, 2021, 12:16 PM
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Heisman Winner [81117]
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This seems to be the most comprehensive real world study
Sep 22, 2021, 12:48 PM
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so far: https://www.nature.com/articles/d41586-021-02457-y
Once you read past the obvious pro mask bias, the numbers boil down to ~5% reduction in risk for cloth masks (which is what most people wear) and ~10% for surgical masks. So I guess you can't say they don't do anything, but for reference seatbelts (which is a common comparison people like to make) reduce risk of death or serious injury by about 50%. If mask effectiveness were even close to that range, the mandates might make sense.
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All-Time Great [88702]
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"Neither the laboratory findings nor the mask-trial findings
Sep 22, 2021, 12:53 PM
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have been peer reviewed."
I'll wait for that part.
Common sense says you're getting a smaller viral load dispersed when wearing a mask, and in a game of limiting the effectiveness of spread, any percentage point is better than naught. Comparing an individual protection to the seat belt percentage isn't really the same, we're trying to prevent exponential growth.
I agree though, upgrading HVAC systems would help more - but at this point in the game, wearing a mask marginally helps (at the very least), if an establishment or their employees are wearing a mask, I'll put one on.
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All-In [28802]
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Asking indivs to wear masks is also less invasive...
Sep 22, 2021, 12:57 PM
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and less burdensome than requiring all public accommodations to provide better HVAC systems.
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All-Time Great [88702]
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It's much cheaper that's for sure.
Sep 22, 2021, 12:58 PM
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Fortunately my company is on the better end of this deal in designing massive HVAC upgrades to schools, hospitals, universities, etc.
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Heisman Winner [81117]
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Heisman Winner [81117]
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It's still the best data I've seen to date
Sep 22, 2021, 1:07 PM
[ in reply to "Neither the laboratory findings nor the mask-trial findings ] |
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I personally don't think the "if it only saves one life" approach is ever the solution, but I will certainly respect businesses and individuals(depending on the setting) who want me to wear one. However, that doesn't mean I'll be passive when someone tries to mandate my child wear one all day. Particularly when there's no evidence based rationale for it.
If you think the juice is worth the squeeze, by all means...But IMO the idea that mask mandates can and will significantly reduce the amount of Covid cases looks to be debunked...Especially when considering the % of people wearing cloth masks vs proper N95's.
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Varsity [104]
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All-Time Great [88702]
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It's hard because I think to do an actual study it would be
Sep 22, 2021, 12:55 PM
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unethically starting with known people who have COVID and putting them in situations with people that don't have it. I mean hell, I'm sure there's people that would take the money to participate in some trials like that.
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Varsity [104]
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Re: It's hard because I think to do an actual study it would be
Sep 22, 2021, 1:19 PM
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Clemson Icon [26049]
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If the right is 'reactionary', what term do you assign to
Sep 22, 2021, 12:57 PM
[ in reply to Yes, but too many on the right are just being reactionary ] |
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the left? Fascist?
- Masks do help to some degree to inhibit person to person infection in a given encouter.
- Masks do not statistically affect the inevitable spread in a population.
- At this point, everyone is responsible for their own vaccination status.
That is all we know. Mask policies and our reaction to them rarely, if ever, address how all that works together.
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All-In [26968]
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All-In [28802]
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I'm not sure they are, but I meant reactionary generally
Sep 22, 2021, 2:07 PM
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Sort of like the difference between being "small 'c'" conservative versus being a political conservative. You can be reactionary without being reactionary politically.
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All-In [26968]
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Rabbit hole here, but I got curious because, to me,
Sep 22, 2021, 2:20 PM
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"Reactionary" sounds almost like the opposite of what it means. Know what I mean? Check out these definitions of the noun "reaction" from Dictionary.com:
1. a reverse movement or tendency; an action in a reverse direction or manner.
2. movement in the direction of political conservatism or extreme rightism.
3. action in response to some influence, event, etc.:
I think the reason the word "reactionary" seems weird to me is that I strongly associate "reaction" with definition 3 above, and don't recall ever hearing it used as #2.
If "reaction" is a move toward political conservatism, then "reactionary" obviously means "politically conservative". Just interesting to a word nerd like me.
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All-In [28802]
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Seems like a normal attitude
Sep 22, 2021, 11:06 AM
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Some people just need something to complain about, or an easy thing they can use to make themselves feel like a hero. Now, if this thing drags on forever and we're required to wear them in a lot of places, it'll be another thing. But I'm not sure that people get that the whole point of masks is to allow you to keep things open safely that might not be open otherwise. They're basically in lieu of much harsher social distancing measures.
Sadly, they're just an object for virtue signaling for a lot of people now.
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All-TigerNet [5722]
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In my experience, kids complain about masks way less than
Sep 22, 2021, 11:06 AM
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kids.
My kids don't think twice about wearing masks if it means they can be at school with their friends vs at home with me teaching them.
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Ultimate Clemson Legend [108676]
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Well, so far only
Sep 22, 2021, 11:12 AM
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20,936 students and 1,554 staff at SC schools have missed school because they had covid. And only another 86,770 students and 1,891 staff have had to quarantine due to exposure. Seems the impact on education from those absences, and on increased teacher demands, and staffing issues, may be worse than the detriment of wearing a mask. But I dunno. Our three boys are getting a covid test right now so they can go back to school (hopefully) tomorrow.
Plus side, only 300 students are out with covid in our district now, down from 3,000. See, they alternated sending schools virtual when things got bad, and that has brought down the numbers. So you can't mandate a mask, but you can close the school....makes sense.
Our 3 boys missed a total of 1 month of in person school due to covid, April of 2020, when everyone did. Since August of 2020 they have attended school in person every day, wearing masks, and missed no time at all of in-person instruction. Well, they didn't make it through this semester, which was a given. Our boys have no problem wearing a mask. Only people with problems are those who oppose them for whatever reason. But as bad as things are this year, compared to last, might want to use them again. Of course it's too late now as cases are declining. They won't be needed in a month or so anyway.
I would argue from a sheer numbers perspective, not wearing masks has had a more detrimental impact on the kids' education, in person learning, schools, teachers, etc. than wearing them did. 70% of custodial parents in our district favor requiring masks. And we're as republican as they get in SC. It's a vocal minority who are responsible IMO. Just like the democrats cave to the AOC/BLM wing of their party, our state government has caved to the Trump/Qanon wing of the GOP. Sad to see really.
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All-TigerNet [5722]
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Our district started out the school year with optional masks
Sep 22, 2021, 11:18 AM
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then two teachers died and they had to close down a few schools. They masked kids up for 2 weeks and numbers went down to a more manageable level.
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Paw Master [17296]
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Re: Well, so far only
Sep 22, 2021, 11:31 AM
[ in reply to Well, so far only ] |
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Sooooo wearing masks would have prevented those numbers?
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Ultimate Clemson Legend [108676]
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Prevented? No. Lowered, yes.
Sep 22, 2021, 11:41 AM
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Probably wouldn't have had to send 9 schools worth of kids home for a week of quality virtual learning in our district.
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Valley Legend [12740]
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I'm pretty much the same...
Sep 22, 2021, 11:27 AM
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If a business is wearing masks, I'll mask up. Publix and Home Depot are the main ones I visit that requires employee masks.
We send our kids to school in masks. They aren't required but it started at probably 25% of students in masks. It's probably 75% now. COVID numbers went crazy at the beginning of the year. Once they required mandatory quarantine at home for exposure more people started masking up. No one wants their rugrats at home all week on quarantine. My kids don't care about them. My son would wear one all the time because he thinks he's a ninja when he wears his.
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Ultimate Tiger [35073]
TigerPulse: 100%
56
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I do know this...anyone that calls themselves...
Sep 22, 2021, 12:55 PM
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a "conservative" and favors the state telling local school boards that they can't require masks...are liars or ill-informed.
One of the bedrocks of political conservatism is the belief that all control that can be local should be local. Surely whether to require students to wear masks in schools or not should be a local decision and not a state or federal decision.
It's the embodiment of trumpism...no real political belief...get what I want/believe in, no matter the cost or long-term ramifications.
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All-In [28802]
TigerPulse: 100%
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Yep, that's the "reactionary" thing I was talking about
Sep 22, 2021, 12:58 PM
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It's just another form of virtue signaling. The left has done plenty of politicizing, but the Trump-y version of the right has politicized this virus to the point that even vaccines have become symbolic of tribal affiliation.
Message was edited by: camcgee®
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Tiger Titan [48843]
TigerPulse: 100%
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Joined: 1998
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Re: Yep, that's the "reactionary" thing I was talking about
Sep 22, 2021, 1:10 PM
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All-TigerNet [5722]
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I agree, and Desantis has lost a lot of goodwill from
Sep 22, 2021, 12:58 PM
[ in reply to I do know this...anyone that calls themselves... ] |
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conservatives in FL (I lump myself in this category) over his heels in the sand with masks in schools.
To come after local school boards for doing what they feel is the best interest of their children and constituents makes it hard for me to continue supporting him.
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Ultimate Tiger [35073]
TigerPulse: 100%
56
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Yep...same for McMaster for me in SC....
Sep 22, 2021, 1:05 PM
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I'm not going to vote for a dem for gov just because of something like this, but it's just pure idiocy.
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Tiger Titan [48843]
TigerPulse: 100%
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Posts: 43571
Joined: 1998
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Here's where it's going to get stupid
Sep 22, 2021, 1:11 PM
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Some districts have already defied McMaster and the legislature, but you know they're going to play the vengeance game and not back down (because in their small minds, that'll show weakness). So we'll probably see them and the districts get into more ridiculous battles.
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Varsity [104]
TigerPulse: 92%
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Re: Here's where it's going to get stupid
Sep 22, 2021, 3:02 PM
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Tiger Titan [48843]
TigerPulse: 100%
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Joined: 1998
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Re: Here's where it's going to get stupid
Sep 22, 2021, 3:05 PM
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So you’re advocating for intentionally breaking the law to implement something that has been shown to provide no statistically measurable benefit?
I'm not. Let's not put words in my mouth.
I personally think the whole think is a #### show on multiple levels and both sides, but ultimately, the decision should be left up to local boards and governments. If they choose masks, so be it. If they choose no masks, so be it. That's the conservative approach; let local jurisdictions make the decision, not the state or feds. One size can't fit all.
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Varsity [104]
TigerPulse: 92%
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Re: Here's where it's going to get stupid
Sep 22, 2021, 3:15 PM
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Tiger Titan [48843]
TigerPulse: 100%
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Joined: 1998
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Re: Here's where it's going to get stupid
Sep 22, 2021, 3:26 PM
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Yeah, I get that, and honestly, I think it made sense back then. I'm not so certain is still doesn't make sense.
And yes, I think there's a better approach than just completely defying state law. I think the legislature, however, should have created a provision that allows certain districts or counties to cite states of emergency or such depending on their numbers. But what applies to Charleston or Greenville shouldn't have to apply to Kershaw or Jasper and vice versa.
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Tiger Titan [48843]
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Correct.
Sep 22, 2021, 1:07 PM
[ in reply to I do know this...anyone that calls themselves... ] |
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All of these decisions should be left to the local governments or school boards. No state should be mandating either way. There is no "one size fits all". A rural school district should probably handle this differently than a city one.
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Campus Hero [13551]
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It's just the principle of the thing. I'm not going to
Sep 22, 2021, 1:53 PM
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believe something simply because an authority says so. That's my problem with masks - their effectiveness has no basis in reality, only in computer simulations. It's a fraud. So while it's not a big hassle to wear one from time to time, I refuse to do so, because it's a lie.
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