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Oculus Spirit [93674]
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A year of reckoning: Police fatally shoot nearly 1,000
Jun 4, 2020, 8:57 AM
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"Nearly a thousand times this year, an American police officer has shot and killed a civilian.
When the people hired to protect their communities end up killing someone, they can be called heroes or criminals — a judgment that has never come more quickly or searingly than in this era of viral video, body cameras and dash cams. A single bullet fired at the adrenaline-charged apex of a chase can end a life, wreck a career, spark a riot, spike racial tensions and alter the politics of the nation.
About this story: The killing of an unarmed black man by a white police officer last year in Ferguson, Mo., ignited a national debate and exposed the federal government’s failure to track the use of deadly force by police. The Washington Post launched a comprehensive project to log every on-duty fatal shooting by police in 2015. The resulting database chronicled shootings nationwide in real time, using news reports and other public sources. The Post compiled data about each death, including the race of those killed, whether they were armed and descriptions of the events. The project revealed that police nationwide were killing more than twice as many people as the FBI had previously reported. In October, the agency’s director, James B. Comey, said it was “unacceptable” that journalists had become the leading source of information on the subject. In December, an FBI official told The Post the agency is overhauling how it tracks violent police encounters, calling it “the highest priority.” The Post will continue tracking fatal shootings by police in 2016"
https://www.washingtonpost.com/sf/investigative/2015/12/26/a-year-of-reckoning-police-fatally-shoot-nearly-1000/
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CU Medallion [58427]
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9 unarmed black males were killed in 2019 by police.
Jun 4, 2020, 9:15 AM
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NINE. 17 unarmed white males were killed by police in 2019.
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All-In [34113]
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Re: 9 unarmed black males were killed in 2019 by police.
Jun 4, 2020, 9:25 AM
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NINE. 17 white unarmed black males were killed by police in 2019.
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CU Medallion [58427]
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Re: 9 unarmed black males were killed in 2019 by police.
Jun 4, 2020, 9:28 AM
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Oculus Spirit [93674]
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Oculus Spirit [81925]
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Lot o points [155948]
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I keep hearing that thrown out, and I get it, but
Jun 4, 2020, 9:44 AM
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It seems that when the topic is the use of police force, violent crime statistics by population are a more relevant stat. Not the most popular thing to say at the moment, but math is math and statistics are statistics.
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Oculus Spirit [81925]
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I get it, it's a very very complex issue; however,
Jun 4, 2020, 9:55 AM
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if you are black you definitely are at a higher risk of the police escalating. The police will stop and detain a black man because "he fits the description" of being black and that's the main descriptor.
Here's a pretty interesting website: https://mappingpoliceviolence.org/?fbclid=IwAR0uoU2vAIZDH962-J43X8dStDXFaPL-LAsDi_con-uMF7ztSogA0WRu00s
We have a systemic problem of racism in this country - I have no idea how we can fix it. To your point of population, it definitely stems from poverty, of which a higher percentage of blacks are - directly resulted from decades of outward racism and oppression.
All that said, it just sucks. People take too hard of lines on both sides.
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Lot o points [155948]
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I think you’re on the right track with the socioeconomic
Jun 4, 2020, 10:12 AM
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Factors. My biggest problem with this whole current movement is it’s 100% “It’s not you, it’s us”. BS. It’s both sides. Any instances of remaining systemic racism in the US are equaled by systemic cultural issues in determining the current plight of the black community in the US.
Yeah let’s address profiling and sentencing discrepancies. Let’s address housing discrimination. While we are at it, let’s address the dearth of two-parent households and the indifference to, if not disdain for, educational opportunities within the black community. There are many, many things that can be done, by both sides, to lift the black community, but using this diiickhead cop as a poster for “it’s all on whitey”, which is all I’m seeing right now, ultimately helps no one. None of those cultural changes are going to come from white leadership whatsoever, they’re going to come from within.
Like I said before, not the most popular sentiment, but just trying to be pragmatic in thinking about getting where we all (I hope) would like to be.
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All-In [31907]
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You are exactly right....
Jun 4, 2020, 10:32 AM
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I don't think I posted on this here, but I did somewhere else.
One of the things that is going to make this problem hard to solve is its complexity coupled with the inability to have an honest debate/discussion on the subject in our current society.
I expressed much of the same things you listed below recently on another pretty middle-of-the-road forum and I was dismissed as a racist by just about everyone there.
The are, in my opinion, HUGE cultural issues in the black community that have to be solved to make any meaningful progress. You touched on the big ones below. If you watch videos of the looting...a lot of it doesn't seem to be done out of poverty or anger, but more an opportunity just to steal. Most aren't stealing food because they have nothing to eat...they're stealing iphones, electronics, shoes, etc...
I didn't vote for Obama and didn't agree with most of his politics, but I had really high hopes when he took office that he could lead a cultural revolution in the black community. To say the least, I was disappointed.
Imagine if there were these kind of marches against black-on-black crime, or against so many black kids (white kids too for that matter) growing up in households without a strong father (or mother), or against all of the pushers of the "Ima get minez" mentality, or for taking pride in your job/work ethic...and on and on.
And you're also right that there are institutional/structural problems that have to get addressed. A legal system that doesn't work for those at the lower end of the economic ladder. A complete reform to sentencing guidelines at the state and federal level. A change to the way schools are funded so that everyone has a shot at a good education (which is a lot more complicated than just funding).
The trick is, for either end to work, things have to change together and not just fix one problem at a time. I'm pretty pessimistic that there can be a real national discussion on this without a very strong black leader that is willing to speak on all types of issues and build a real movement.
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All-In [49057]
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How many of the systemic cultural issues
Jun 4, 2020, 11:07 AM
[ in reply to I think you’re on the right track with the socioeconomic ] |
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are largely traceable to decades of restricted access and opportunity?
Those cultural issues for the most part didn't come over on the slave ships, did they?
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Lot o points [155948]
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I’m gonna go with an contraire, mon frere.
Jun 4, 2020, 11:35 AM
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I think many of the cultural incentives stem from well meaning whites (looking at you FDR) actually incentivizing the current conditions.
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Lot o points [155948]
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Sorry, issues, not incentives.***
Jun 4, 2020, 11:52 AM
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All-In [49057]
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How did FDR incentivize current conditions and
Jun 4, 2020, 12:04 PM
[ in reply to I’m gonna go with an contraire, mon frere. ] |
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and why has it had a disproportionate impact on blacks even though it was not specifically tailored to blacks?
Did you mean Nixon and the war on poverty? Or LBJ and the civil rights act?
Pretending that decades of systemic, institutional racism isn't a major factor in where we are just seems like an effort to wash your hands of the issues.
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Lot o points [155948]
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Where did I pretend that?
Jun 4, 2020, 12:44 PM
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Re-read what I posted in this thread.....there are absolutely factors in modern society that put a thumb on the scale against blacks. I said as such. The problem is that when I broached the topic of cultural issues that can only be handled “in-house”, you honed in on that to the point that you said I’m pretending systemic racism isn’t a factor. It’s not just you, it happens every time one broaches this topic and it’s why a real conversation can’t be had. I said nothing of the sort.
FDR was a tongue in cheek jab at the grandfather of American social welfare systems that destroyed what had been a strong African-American family structure, but it certainly applies to those who came after him and “helped” with unintended consequences. (Incidentally, unintended consequences can only happen so many times before it’s dubious that they’re unintended—-see paragraph 1–I’m agreeing with you again. ) I think a big difference in our viewpoints is that, to steal a line from Ronnie R, the most damage to the black community in the modern era has been done by smiling people saying “hi, I’m from the government and I’m here to help”.
Back to the topic though....since we seem to agree that there are societal and governmental issues that need addressing, and disagree that there are cultural issues that need addressing, let’s say we get systemic racism fixed. Does a strong family structure organically begin being valued and aspired to within the black community? If not, how does that get fixed from the outside in? Students who do well in school tend to have the most involved parents in their education. Does that happen organically? If not, same question.
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All-In [49057]
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I'll apologize for overstating my point
Jun 4, 2020, 1:18 PM
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which I should not have to since this is P&R, but, take away pretending and as a society we are in the same boat. My issue with cultural issues is that I can't fix those. Me telling folks to fix those issues is going to fall on deaf ears no matter how I manage to finagle it. I would, however, argue that removing as many of the systemic factors as possible would go a long way towards fixing the issues. And there is a large segment of the vocal african american community that would shift their focus internally if given the chance to move beyond #### like George Floyd and external hurdles.
Once I've endeavored to fix all the external hurdles and obstacles, and nothing but internal hurdles exist, it's a lot easier to sit and discuss internal problems in the community.
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Lot o points [155948]
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That line of reasoning implies that there’s no overlap in
Jun 4, 2020, 4:01 PM
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Symptom/solution. There absolutely is.
I think robertn made a post about blacks getting stopped disproportionally in nice suburbs compared to whites. Not sure if that’s correct but it sounds believable enough so let’s go with it.
You can fix it by trying to screen out biased cops (although I’m sure they aren’t willingly hiring biased ones now, so I expect limited returns from such an effort), you can change traffic stop policies, etc, etc......I’m sure that will help on some level.
On the flip side of the coin, the cultural transformation I suggested would result in a rapid....seriously rapid....increase in black wealth. Like massive changes over the course of a single generation. So you know what else attacks suburban profiling? Making black owned residences an incredibly common occurrence in wealthy suburbia to the point that profiling really isn’t profiling any longer.
The two go hand in hand. I don’t get saying “let’s fix one and not worry about the other until it’s solved” when they’re both attacking the same issues from different angles. That’s just inefficient.
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All-In [49057]
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How you going to fix internal cultural issues?
Jun 4, 2020, 4:09 PM
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What can you do about it?
The only part I can control or influence is the external factors.
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Lot o points [155948]
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Who said you could? That’s the point of my original post.
Jun 4, 2020, 4:23 PM
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This whole protest movement, with woke white America falling over themselves to say “yes it’s all our fault and always has been”, while well intentioned and hopefully productive, is sucking every bit of oxygen out of the room with none left for introspection within the black community. That’s what I was rueing all along.
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All-In [49057]
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Maybe now is the time to work on systemic external factors
Jun 5, 2020, 10:53 AM
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and wait to finger wag and lecture the black community about all their problems til llater
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CU Medallion [58427]
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CU Medallion [58427]
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^ These are murders, not shootings.***
Jun 4, 2020, 11:40 AM
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Legend [15749]
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I always like how people point out the disparity of whites to
Jun 4, 2020, 10:09 AM
[ in reply to 13% black, 77% white in this country...*** ] |
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blacks in America, as if the ratio of unarmed blacks killed by cops is higher than the ratio of whites killed by cops, the current situation is justified. Nine unarmed black men were killed by cops last year. When there are 800,000 cops and tens of millions of police interactions, the conclusion here is obviously that cops are NOT an overt threat to the lives of black people. If they were, wouldn’t this number be...I don’t know...at least 100?
That doesn’t mean there isn’t opportunity to look at policing and search for biases that don’t serve their communities. (If pot arrests are significantly higher for blacks than whites, why is that?) But it does mean that this rhetoric of cops killing innocent black people is a farce. With 800,000 cops, a few will be bad. A few accidents will happen. Some will be poorly trained. As a whole, they seem to show appropriate restraint and serve their communities. They do not deserve this vilification. A vilification which will only serve to make black communities less safe in my opinion.
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All-In [49057]
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Shot by...***
Jun 4, 2020, 10:15 AM
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Legend [15749]
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I don't understand. Is that meant to correct my "killed by"?
Jun 4, 2020, 10:37 AM
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Is the statistic "nine unarmed black men were SHOT by cops"? Did they not all die?
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All-In [49057]
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George Floyd wasn't shot
Jun 4, 2020, 11:00 AM
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therefore discussing fatal shootings potentially paints an incomplete picture.
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CU Medallion [58427]
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You're right. Racist cops typically murder blacks
Jun 4, 2020, 11:41 AM
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by means other than shooting so they can paint an incomplete picture with this stat.
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All-In [49057]
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Yes, that's exactly what I said...***
Jun 4, 2020, 12:01 PM
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Legend [15749]
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Oh...well now, that’s interesting. The WaPo’s database
Jun 4, 2020, 11:42 AM
[ in reply to George Floyd wasn't shot ] |
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refers to “fatal shootings”. I wonder if that’s really all they track (versus, as you say, a fatal choke hold).
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CU Medallion [58427]
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110%er [9667]
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So - 13% of the population commit 40% of the murders (2018)
Jun 4, 2020, 5:42 PM
[ in reply to 13% black, 77% white in this country...*** ] |
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Heck 6% of the population (black males) commit 35% of the murders in the US! So - it's not unusual that they would attract a little more attention...
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CU Medallion [56105]
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CU Medallion [58427]
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You are correct - fatally shot.***
Jun 4, 2020, 9:50 AM
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All-In [26968]
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I wonder how they objectively determine "race".***
Jun 4, 2020, 9:22 AM
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Rock Defender [54]
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You know all of this is about a LOT more than shootings?
Jun 4, 2020, 9:43 AM
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Right? Which again the data supports black men are disproportionately on the victim side of by the police.
Are you telling all of the protesters, “I don’t believe you”?
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All-In [26968]
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All CT1988 did was post an article.
Jun 4, 2020, 9:45 AM
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Your reply doesn't make any sense.
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Rock Defender [54]
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Should have been in reply to the posts above***
Jun 4, 2020, 9:47 AM
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Lot o points [155948]
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Oculus Spirit [93674]
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All-In [34113]
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Message removed by Author
Jun 4, 2020, 10:16 AM
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Message removed by Author
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All-In [31907]
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Wait a minute....
Jun 4, 2020, 10:38 AM
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when people point out that broken families are not good for a society at large, it is not a direct condemnation of people that come from broken families. I'm know you get that.
Wouldn't you agree that there are too many kids growing up without a father (or mother in a lesser number of cases)? And I'm not speaking to divorce per se, I'm speaking to men that have kids with 3 different women and women who have 3 kids with 3 different fathers. And that is for all races.
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All-In [34113]
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Message removed by Author
Jun 4, 2020, 10:56 AM
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Message removed by Author
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CU Medallion [58427]
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Re: Wait a minute....
Jun 4, 2020, 12:08 PM
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It's a much bigger problem than racism.
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CU Medallion [58427]
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Oculus Spirit [93674]
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OK, just how far do I have to 'go,' to '####,' myself?
Jun 4, 2020, 2:03 PM
[ in reply to Message removed by Author ] |
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If it's far it may take a while before I get time but I promise to try as soon as I finish this project car. Honest injun.
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All-In [42197]
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I would say just about everyone here is in agreement...
Jun 4, 2020, 9:53 AM
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That there are too many fatal police shootings across the board in America, and there are a variety of reasons it's a problem.
The proportions of blacks, particularly males, unjustly killed by police point to an even deeper problem.
I think all white people have to ask themselves this: What's your reaction when you're driving and you see the blue lights behind you? What's your fear?
My fear is that I'm about to get a ticket and my insurance is going up. I've never feared that I'm about to die.
Can black Americans say the same?
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Legend [15749]
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What proportion is that?
Jun 4, 2020, 10:01 AM
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“The proportions of blacks, particularly males, unjustly killed by police point to an even deeper problem.”
What number of blacks are unjustly killed by police? And what number are you using to establish a proportion? The number of blacks JUSTLY killed by police? The number of blacks? The number of non-blacks unjustly killed by police?
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CU Medallion [56105]
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Are you arguing that there isn't an actual problem here?***
Jun 4, 2020, 10:03 AM
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Legend [15749]
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Here I'm asking Cata what proportion he's referring to.***
Jun 4, 2020, 10:12 AM
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All-In [42197]
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You're dodging the main point.
Jun 4, 2020, 11:02 AM
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And you're not really debating that black people aren't killed at a greater rate than whites by police, are you?
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Legend [15749]
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I’m not dodging anything. Semantics matter. Blacks are NOT
Jun 4, 2020, 11:24 AM
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killed at a higher rate by cops than white people are. But it is true that a black person in America is statistically more likely to be killed by a cop than a white person in America.
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All-In [42197]
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What?!
Jun 4, 2020, 11:46 AM
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The two sentences you just posted contradict each other.
But it is true that a black person in America is statistically more likely to be killed by a cop than a white person in America.
That's what "rate" means. They're killed at a higher per capita, thus a higher rate, thus more likely to be killed.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rate_(mathematics)
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Legend [15749]
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Hmm. Hard to argue your point here after I stated that
Jun 4, 2020, 11:52 AM
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“Semantics matter.” I guess in my mind, the rate for each race’s killing could be per the general population, not that specific race’s population. But if that is not correct, then my first comment isn’t correct. In which case my second comment aligns with what a rate is, and I agree with you.
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All-In [42197]
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But would we not look at that race's population?
Jun 4, 2020, 11:56 AM
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There are significantly fewer blacks in America yet police kill them at a higher rate based on their numbers. That's important.
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Legend [15749]
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Yes certainly. I’m just trying to keep rhetoric clear.
Jun 4, 2020, 12:01 PM
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It’s the difference between saying “if someone was killed by a cop in America, chances are he was black”, which is false, and “if you are black, you have a higher probability of being killed by a cop in America than if you are white”, which is true. I’m not dismissing that second measurement...just keeping the discussion clear. Or trying to.
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All-In [42197]
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Re: Yes certainly. I’m just trying to keep rhetoric clear.
Jun 4, 2020, 12:11 PM
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Has anyone argued this?:
If someone was killed by a cop in America, chances are he was black.
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Legend [15749]
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I am just keeping the rhetoric clear.***
Jun 4, 2020, 12:16 PM
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Rock Defender [54]
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I’m not sure what the actual rate is
Jun 4, 2020, 12:09 PM
[ in reply to What?! ] |
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All-In [42197]
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Um...
Jun 4, 2020, 12:16 PM
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WAPO stated 2.5 times more likely but that isn’t true. I saw in 2015 over 1,000 people were killed by cops. 23% were black. So WAPO compared that to the percent population of black people in the country and determined 2.5 times. That’s as dumb as Trump saying we tested more than any other country. All bad stats just to prove their point.
That's how you determine how likely you are to be killed based on race. Take the percentage or total number of blacks killed by police and divide by the total black population. Then do the same for whites. Compare.
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Rock Defender [54]
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Blacks are statistically more involved in violent crime
Jun 4, 2020, 12:21 PM
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All-In [42197]
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No...
Jun 4, 2020, 2:29 PM
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You're now comparing two different statistics and arguing correlation without proof. The rate of police fatalities for blacks vs. whites isn't close to the discrepancy between black vs. white violent crime commission, and those crimes are recorded in convictions; arguments can be made that blacks are pursued more aggressively and convicted at a higher rate.
My math isn't wrong. And it's not my math anyway.
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Rock Defender [54]
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Re: No...
Jun 4, 2020, 2:47 PM
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All-In [42197]
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Re: No...
Jun 4, 2020, 10:34 PM
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The last point is how you respond to being pulled over. If I'm pulled over for a traffic stop, I don't suddenly reach for the glove compartment and I don't spout off to the cops. The last thing I'd do is reach for a cop's gun like Michael Brown did.
Are you arguing that black people are shot more often by police because they do stuff like this when they are pulled over?
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Rock Defender [54]
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Re: No...
Jun 4, 2020, 10:46 PM
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All-In [42197]
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Your sheriff?!?!
Jun 4, 2020, 11:22 PM
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Oh... you said Leon Lott.
I'm too drunk to address the rest of your post.
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Oculus Spirit [93674]
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I don't think anyone is arguing there isn't a problem.
Jun 4, 2020, 10:37 AM
[ in reply to Are you arguing that there isn't an actual problem here?*** ] |
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I am not oblivious to the fact that blacks are mistreated by police simply because of the color of their skin. Minority communities are policed by forces which are mostly minority personnel. Obviously that isn't enough.
What is the solution?
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All-In [42197]
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Hard to say.
Jun 4, 2020, 11:05 AM
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I mean, there are the obvious efforts like better training, demilitarization, and hiring more black cops, but honestly, I don't think it's a quick fix. I think it will take a long time to weed it out.
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CU Medallion [56105]
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Oculus Spirit [93674]
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I agree that holding cops accountable for dikhead behavior..
Jun 4, 2020, 2:25 PM
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is one of the solutions. However, people who cops stop should be punished more severely for resisting arrest. Cops are human, they are motivated by fear of being harmed or frustration when someone challenges their authority.
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Oculus Spirit [81925]
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Address the second part of his post.
Jun 4, 2020, 10:08 AM
[ in reply to What proportion is that? ] |
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I think all white people have to ask themselves this: What's your reaction when you're driving and you see the blue lights behind you? What's your fear?
My fear is that I'm about to get a ticket and my insurance is going up. I've never feared that I'm about to die.
Can black Americans say the same?
I have a friend who immediately opens the window and puts both his hands out of the car until the officer directs him to do anything else, he then verbalizes each of his actions before he performs them while the officer watches - because he fears for his life. This is coming from a black man who is a professionally licensed engineer and comes from a middle class family.
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Legend [15749]
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Yes, but the statistics don't back that up.
Jun 4, 2020, 10:14 AM
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In 2019, if nine unarmed black men were killed by cops, how real is his fear for his life? How many of those were black men that were pulled over and ended up being killed for no reason? By my reading, none. So what is causing his fear?
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Oculus Spirit [81925]
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Honestly, your white privilege is blinding you.
Jun 4, 2020, 10:17 AM
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And because I said "white privilege" you're now tuned out of this conversation.
I recommend reading some of the stories about black men and how they were targeted by police just for being black.
Your mind clearly isn't going to change on this, all I can hope is you're still respectful and treat everyone equally.
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Legend [15749]
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Of course I tune you out when you say that. That's WHY you
Jun 4, 2020, 10:35 AM
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say it. If you say "My black friend is very deliberate with his every action when he gets pulled over because he's afraid for his life." and I respond "Not a single instance of a black person being pulled over and being killed has happened in the past year." a response of, effectively, "You're just ignorant" is meant solely to end the discussion.
My argument is that it's statistically indefensible. I don't know how far back you have to go before you find an instance of a black person being pulled over and ending up with him being killed for no reason (aside from TV shows and movies, of course), but I have no doubt you could find one. Then of course you have to compare it to the number of times black people have been pulled over period. What would the percentage be? 0.000001% of the time? I really have no idea. At what percentage is it reasonable to think that WILL happen? Then of course, you'd have to determine if there is a racial component to the action (always assumed, I know, but that doesn't make it true). Have white people ever been pulled over and then end up dead for no reason? I have no idea.
I'm admittedly hard-headed, but I don't know that my mind is unchangeable on the topic. But I do know that you've brought anecdotes and "white privilege" to the discussion, and I've brought questions and statistics.
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Oculus Spirit [81925]
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Nope, I said it because it's an actual thing.
Jun 4, 2020, 10:46 AM
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You're arguing statistics, but the fact is that it does happen, and it happens disproportionately more for black people.
I have never feared for any escalation whenever I have been pulled over. "Fear for life" is more than just dying. My only fear is how much the ticket will be, and if I will need to go to court in the county I don't live close to...that's it. Even when I was pulled for going 40mph over the speed limit, I never had a single fear of anything except the potential reckless driving charge.
I am certain that if a black man was pulled going 40mph over, he'd be told to get out of the car and everything would be escalated from there.
These aren't singular anecdotes, it is systemic, and when I say white privilege it's because that's what it is. Have you ever had real conversations with any black men about this topic?
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Legend [15749]
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I don’t think you read what you’re writing.
Jun 4, 2020, 11:18 AM
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You’re quite sure that every black person pulled over going 40 mph over the speed limit will be told to get out of his car? Well, if you’re QUITE sure, we’ll just move on
“You’re arguing statistics, but the fact is it does happen”. Is that the criteria? So, when a white person calls a cop on a black guy in the park, are they right to do it? I mean, black men have attacked white women before. The fact is it DOES happen.
“It’s systemic”. What does that even mean? Part of “the system”? What system? How is it part of it? We know from studies that white cops are no more likely to kill blacks people than black cops are, so how do they accomplish this system?
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Rock Defender [54]
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Oculus Spirit [81925]
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No, I don't. Thanks for sharing something stupid and not
Jun 4, 2020, 12:31 PM
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relevant to this conversation.
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Rock Defender [54]
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Re: No, I don't. Thanks for sharing something stupid and not
Jun 4, 2020, 12:36 PM
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All-In [49057]
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White privilege...
Jun 4, 2020, 4:05 PM
[ in reply to Of course I tune you out when you say that. That's WHY you ] |
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I believe it exists. Not so much that every white person has an advantage, but that presently, no white person is persistently disadvantaged by their race alone. Poverty, where they grew up, etc may work against them, but it has zero to do with color.
I think it's enough that black people get pulled over more. I think it's enough that the police don't follow the rules meticulously in poor, black neighborhoods. My daughter was helping a black friend who's car was stuck in the mud off the side of the road. It was like 10 at night, the girl driving pulled off to try and shoo a dog out of the road. It was in her own neighborhood and she was driving the car she got from her parents for turning 16. She's top ten in her class and headed full ride to Brown.
When the police showed up, they aggressively questioned her about who she was, where she was supposed to be, whether it was her car, whether she belonged in the neighborhood, etc. Didn't ask my daughter the first question, other than for her to confirm that her friend was telling the truth. My daughter has been pissed about it ever since.
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All-In [31907]
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Hold up...that kind of response is actually part of the...
Jun 4, 2020, 10:49 AM
[ in reply to Honestly, your white privilege is blinding you. ] |
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reason we cannot have a real and open debate/discussion on these kinds of topics.
And I say that as someone who sees validity in both of your arguments.
When you say "Your mind clearly isn't going to change on this, all I can hope is you're still respectful and treat everyone equally" I ask myself...is YOUR mind open for different perspectives too? It sounds like you're made up you're mind and not willing to engage in an honest discussion.
Black people clearly have a fear of the police.
Do the stats support that fear? Do the stats really paint an accurate picture? Are killings alone really a good measure?
These are all valid questions...or at least they should be.
And yes, "your white privilege is blinding you" is very often now a argumentative cop out.
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Oculus Spirit [81925]
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My mind is made up that I don't understand what a black
Jun 4, 2020, 10:54 AM
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person goes through and I will never understand it. I try my best to not bias against and buck the racist system we have in place.
Yes, my mind is open, but the opposite is to say "racism doesn't exist because statistics and these blacks are unjustified in their fears".
Yes, the stats do support the fear. If you're going to discredit the stats, then what's the point of bringing them up? And no, killings aren't a good measure, the escalation, the treatment of presumed more guilty than an equivalent white person is the biggest issue...of which there aren't statistics for.
It's an argumentative cop out in that I'm not going to delve into the hard feelings of trying to help anyone understand white privilege. It's just not worth it, and like I said, if anyone can genuinely follow the prototypical golden rule, I'll move on from the discussion and carry on.
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All-In [31907]
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It's not that black and white (pardon the pun)...
Jun 4, 2020, 1:19 PM
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In no way did he say "racism doesn't exist because statistics and these blacks are unjustified in their fears".
I think there is a valid discussion to have if the fear level is justified by the stats or at least there may be a case to be made for perspective. Having that discussion does not equate to believing there is no racism and/or police abuse of power. I think the discussion might should be police abuse of power in general and not necessarily based on race, but I have to do some research into that. Also, there is a difference between physical abuses and stopping people based on race profiling.
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All-In [31907]
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I get all of that....
Jun 4, 2020, 1:47 PM
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my point was more to the ability to have a reasonable discussions.
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All-In [49057]
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Even if the rate of killings is equal...
Jun 4, 2020, 1:20 PM
[ in reply to Hold up...that kind of response is actually part of the... ] |
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you'd be justified in being more afraid if you were more likely to have encounters with the police/authority. And I don't think I have ever met a black person who hasn't been pulled over for no reason and asked a bunch of ######## questions that honestly, I would have a hard time not being disrespectful in response.
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All-In [42197]
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Legend [15749]
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Without doing homework, the title of the link is about
Jun 4, 2020, 10:17 AM
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blacks killed by cops as a ratio of black Americans vs whites killed by cops as a ratio of white Americans. Is that accurate?
Because your original post referred to the ratio of blacks UNJUSTLY killed by cops. So I thought maybe you had some data on that? Can I assume from your link that you wish to compare the number of blacks UNJUSTLY killed by cops to the number of whites UNJUSTLY killed by cops, both normalized to the number of each race are in the country?
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All-In [42197]
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Legend [15749]
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Apparently you shall. Now, I didn’t click on your link,
Jun 4, 2020, 11:36 AM
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But here is the data from the Washington Post:
https://www.washingtonpost.com/graphics/investigations/police-shootings-database/
A website designed specifically to track cop violence may not be providing as objective of an eye as the Washington Post, which I think we can assume (and feel free to disagree) is not looking to hold the police force’s water, but also doesn’t live or die by whether or not this is an issue? Or do you think they miss a ton of killings? I will concede that they are pretty bad at “journalism.”
Anyway, they say 38 unarmed black men were killed in 2015.
Back to the original question, are you stating then that unarmed killings are never justified?
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All-In [42197]
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Hold on...
Jun 4, 2020, 11:55 AM
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You're refusing to look at a source, immediately dismiss it, and just holler that your source--one that you've dismissed in the past as unreliable--is the right one all the while ignoring that the Post is addressing shooting deaths whereas the other one is addressing all fatalities.
So which source do you want to use? You've already conceded that a black person is more likely to be killed by police than a white one, thus establishing they're killed at a higher rate even though you somehow said that wasn't the case.
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Legend [15749]
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Fair enough, then I’ll have to look at it when I’m not on
Jun 4, 2020, 12:04 PM
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my phone.
I assume I’ve addressed your second paragraph elsewhere?
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All-In [42197]
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I would say so, yes.***
Jun 4, 2020, 12:16 PM
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Rock Defender [54]
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All-In [42197]
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Re: It’s weird how that map seems similar to
Jun 4, 2020, 10:35 PM
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Oculus Spirit [93674]
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Hall of Famer [22948]
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Typically, if it's not a problem for them personally
Jun 4, 2020, 3:52 PM
[ in reply to I would say just about everyone here is in agreement... ] |
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... then it must not be a problem universally.
We're all guilty of this at times, but the levels people go to defend/argue against their blindspot is absurd.
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