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CU Guru [1515]
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My new realizations on Jan. 6th
Jan 6, 2022, 6:44 AM
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I used to call it an insurrection or even a coup attempt. However, after really looking into it and taking in everybody's opinion on it here, I have to agree with fluffhead's post last night that it wasn't an actual organized attempt at a coup or insurrection. However, I have no problem calling the small percentage of the crowd that committed violence in the name of politics ... insurrectionists. It meets the definition and I hope every one of them gets convicted to at or beyond the maximum sentence for their crimes.
Nope, the actual organized attempt at a coup/insurrection was going on over at the White House, a portion of which was laid out by Peter Navarro in the video I posted yesterday morning. Let's face it, Trump has never been able to admit losing anything. When he lost the Iowa primary to Ted Cruz, what did he do? He claimed that it was "stolen and a fraud". Same for the popular vote in 2016. So why did it surprise anyone that he claimed the same in 2020. Helll, he even laid the groundwork for it for months before the election. I'm just blown away that so many people believe(d) him. So the coup/insurrection was actually the strong arm tactics of Trump and his minions aimed at local and state election officials(like when he committed a felony when he asked Brad R. for more votes in GA.), US Attorneys, the acting AG and finally the VP. Thank God Mike Pence and the others(including Trump's own WH attorneys) did not cave to this pressure. Jan. 6th was just the last ditch effort to see what might happen. Hence, the 3 hour delay in calling off the dogs by Trump.
The scary thing is that in 2016 about 85% of people in both parties had confidence that elections were run fairly and that their vote would be properly counted. Now, only about 40% of Pubs say the same thing. This does not bode well for the future. In that vein, here is what Real Clear Politics shows on Trump's favorability rating. It went from about 42 to only 38% just after Jan 6th and has steadily gone back up since. WTH??? It seems to me the Pubs are currently led from the bottom up, no leadership from the top in Congress to nip this crazy crap in the bud. We are phucked!!!! Especially with the crappy job the other side is currently doing.
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All-TigerNet [13605]
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Re: My new realizations on Jan. 6th
Jan 6, 2022, 7:11 AM
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" It went from about 42 to only 38% just after Jan 6th and has steadily gone back up since."
Imho, 1. Because most people don't think it was an insurrection no matter how much the other side claims it was. (Or at least they don't blame him for it)
2. People think with all his faults, he still did a better job then what the current president is doing.
Not defending him, never was a Trump fan and never will be, just offering my opinion on the poll numbers.
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Orange Blooded [2669]
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Re: My new realizations on Jan. 6th
Jan 6, 2022, 7:37 AM
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Yea, not an organized coupe attempt like many here claim it to be. The fbi even admitted it. Facts don't matter though, these idiots had their mind made up that day.
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All-In [31896]
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I don't think it was a coup attempt....
Jan 6, 2022, 7:45 AM
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but it clearly was an attempt to stop the actions of Congress in certifying an election.
I don't understand why that, just all by itself, isn't "serious enough".
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Orange Blooded [2669]
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Re: I don't think it was a coup attempt....
Jan 6, 2022, 7:53 AM
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but it clearly was an attempt to stop the actions of Congress in certifying an election.
I don't understand why that, just all by itself, isn't "serious enough".
It was serious. It was bad. Why do I constantly get accused of not thinking it was serious if I don't believe that it was an organized attempted government takeover as catahoula, Birmingham, and others parrot on this board?
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All-In [42170]
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I didn't claim it was an "organized attempt to takeover"
Jan 6, 2022, 8:10 AM
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It seemed very disorganized. I don't think most of the people who participated in the event were even attempting a coup; most were mouth-breathing, imbecile MAGAphiles who think "coup" is spelled "coop". Scattered among them, however, were actual neo-fascist civil-war cravers who saw an opportunity, and they fully intended to overthrow Congress and instill Trump as a dictator. They needed that angry, idiot mob to accomplish this--just like other similar cases in history.
These people fully wanted to shut down the vote and take out Congress. If people hadn't been evacuated, they would have held executions in the House chambers and I #### well stand by that claim. Those few would have had an idiot mob to protect them as they accomplished this.
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Orange Blooded [2669]
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Re: I didn't claim it was an "organized attempt to takeover"
Jan 6, 2022, 11:08 AM
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????????
The fbi disagrees with you. How come nobody has been charged with attempted murder or insurrection? This is just one of your deluded fantasies. Very weird.
Is there any evidence of these neo-fascists that wanted to overthrow the government and instill trump? Any names or pics? What stockpile of weapons did they have for such an endeavor? Any coordinated plans?
"Ninety to ninety-five percent of these are one-off cases," said a former senior law enforcement official with knowledge of the investigation. "Then you have five percent, maybe, of these militia groups that were more closely organized. But there was no grand scheme with Roger Stone and Alex Jones and all of these people to storm the Capitol and take hostages."
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All-In [42170]
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Re: I didn't claim it was an "organized attempt to takeover"
Jan 6, 2022, 11:35 AM
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-You can't get charged with attempted murder when the people you would have killed aren't in the building any more. They were charged with what they were supposed to be charged.
-Yep. They were arrested and charged.
-Yeah, that quote you posted is saying exactly what I was saying. It was a small group who wanted to accomplish the worst. The rest were just idiot Trumpie mouth breathers. I challenge them to spell "coup" properly.
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All-In [31896]
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Hall of Famer [20541]
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Re: I don't think it was a coup attempt....
Jan 6, 2022, 5:10 PM
[ in reply to I don't think it was a coup attempt.... ] |
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I'll argue this until I'm blue in the face: it was a coup.
Trump wanted that mob to break in. He wanted them to do damage. I think he wanted them to kill some people. If he'd rid himself of Pelosi or AOC or Pence it would have reduced the number of people who might have stopped him...and given him carte blanche to declare a State of Emergency, as more than a few around him were urging him to do.
Taking advantage of chaos you yourself created is the oldest coup trick in the book and it's exactly what he intended, IMHO.
I do think he had dedicated killers in that crowd, too. Roger Stone was demonstrably dealing direct with the Oath Keepers and they were definitely armed. The Proud Boys were organized and were probing for weak spots and when they found them they used Signal and Telegram apps to coordinate an overwhelming push on those spots.
I don't think it came off and he ultimately pulled his hand back, but it was a at the very least a swipe at the big prize.
History will remember it as a coup attempt, IMHO.
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Legend [16259]
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Re: I don't think it was a coup attempt....
Jan 6, 2022, 6:02 PM
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It didn't need an execution or death. One single hostage, even a Congressional aide, anyone, taken into custody by any single member of that mob (police excepted), would have brought about an immediate call for martial law and the suspension of Congress and all other affairs. And there goes the ballgame.
One single hostage. Amazing that didn't happen with the chaos that was unfolding, the numbers, pros up front, and only the Capitol Police as a defense.
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Rock Defender [53]
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Re: I don't think it was a coup attempt....
Jan 6, 2022, 6:05 PM
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Legend [16259]
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Re: I don't think it was a coup attempt....
Jan 6, 2022, 6:45 PM
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You are saying 10's of thousands of people were trying to do that. I was not. Those in front were. It's evidenced. They were goons and not well organized inside, but the tale is in the tape. It only took one office to still have a staffer that was grabbed and game over. You cannot say that those who were reaching the halls and banging on doors and headed towards the Chamber were not looking to take physical control over those inside. Or maybe you can. I just don't see how someone could really believe that, and I'll leave it at that.
The Capitol Police did an amazing job of slowing those in the lead down, with backup from other security within chambers, allowing staff and reps to evacuate. We are very fortunate. All of US.
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All-In [42170]
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So now you've moved from spelling it as "coop" to "coupe"?
Jan 6, 2022, 8:05 AM
[ in reply to Re: My new realizations on Jan. 6th ] |
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Holy crap.
I bet you actually think "coup" is pronounced like "coop".
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All-In [40934]
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You are such a good speller
Jan 6, 2022, 9:22 AM
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I'm so proud.
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All-In [42170]
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I'm glad I made you proud.***
Jan 6, 2022, 9:23 AM
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All-In [46825]
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It was an attempt to stop certifying the basic foundation
Jan 6, 2022, 7:58 AM
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of our freedom, an election.
A handful of thugs whipped into a fever by the sitting president attempted to find and arrest/attack the Vice President in an effort to stop the election of a new president.
The pubs in here can play semantics all they want but,
That is an attack on our democracy. Period.
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Orange Blooded [2669]
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Re: It was an attempt to stop certifying the basic foundation
Jan 6, 2022, 7:59 AM
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Lmao!!! I found one!
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All-In [46825]
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Yeah, they were just on a tour right?***
Jan 6, 2022, 8:01 AM
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Rock Defender [53]
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All-In [42170]
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Whataboutwhataboutwhataboutwhatabout.***
Jan 6, 2022, 11:28 AM
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Rock Defender [53]
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Re: Whataboutwhataboutwhataboutwhatabout.***
Jan 6, 2022, 11:30 AM
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All-In [42170]
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Perhaps, Capt. Whatabout...
Jan 6, 2022, 11:32 AM
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Some of us can stay on topic in the current thread and don't need to consistently bring up red herrings to intentionally derail the conversation.
Perhaps start a new thread of discussion on the points you mentioned?
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Rock Defender [53]
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Re: Perhaps, Capt. Whatabout...
Jan 6, 2022, 11:37 AM
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All-In [42170]
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Re: Perhaps, Capt. Whatabout...
Jan 6, 2022, 12:23 PM
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I can reply to what I want when I want in a discussion. And I'll gladly point out cheap attempts to derail a discussion off the topic at hand. We're discussing Jan. 6. Simple courtesy dictates someone start a new thread to discuss a new topic.
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Rock Defender [53]
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Re: Perhaps, Capt. Whatabout...
Jan 6, 2022, 12:28 PM
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All-In [42170]
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Re: Perhaps, Capt. Whatabout...
Jan 6, 2022, 3:29 PM
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Yeah, but what about people who post the wrong topics on the wrong boards? Like politics in the Mange? Boobies in P&R instead of the Lunge? COVID posts in the Ticket Swap?!
I'd like to see you denounce those people! Clearly you're a fake Clemson fan for not speaking out against Tigernet people like that in this thread?
See how stupid it looks?
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All-In [34108]
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T3, all of those things you're referring to,
Jan 6, 2022, 12:38 PM
[ in reply to Re: It was an attempt to stop certifying the basic foundation ] |
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using budget reconciliation, getting rid of the filibuster, packing SCOTUS... None of that has the slightest thing to do with a violent attack on the capitol. You can disagree politically with each of those things, but they're all being done within the system. "Packing the court" isn't an attack on the system. The system permits it. The Constitution doesn't require 9 Justices and never did. The other branches have used tactics, which we can criticize or defend depending on our views, to alter the makeup of the judiciary. That's simply not in the same ballpark, and not even the same sport ($1 to Jules Winnfield), as a bunch of dipshits trying to stop an election.
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Rock Defender [53]
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Re: T3, all of those things you're referring to,
Jan 6, 2022, 12:49 PM
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All-In [31896]
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Explain to me how Dems wanting to add more...
Jan 6, 2022, 1:09 PM
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SCOTUS Justices is any different (Constitutionally) than Senator McConnell denying a vote on Merrick Garland.
I disagree/disagreed with both, but that doesn't mean they're anti-democracy or even illegal.
Breaking into the Capital and violently trying to thwart an election result is anti-democratic, anti-American, against the Constitution, AND illegal.
Whataboutism is bad enough, but you at least have to try to make some kind of reasonable comparison...
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Rock Defender [53]
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Re: Explain to me how Dems wanting to add more...
Jan 6, 2022, 1:13 PM
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All-In [34108]
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Flow isn't defending Democrats.
Jan 6, 2022, 1:16 PM
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He and I both agree that you can criticize various tactics used within the system. We're not defending court-packing. I literally said people can criticize it or defend it, depending on their views. We're saying court-packing is legal and constitutional, as opposed to what happened on January 6.
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Rock Defender [53]
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Re: Flow isn't defending Democrats.
Jan 6, 2022, 1:17 PM
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All-In [34108]
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Re: Flow isn't defending Democrats.
Jan 6, 2022, 1:19 PM
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That's fine, I won't argue the point because it's not relevant. And because I'm not in favor of court-packing. Whether it's defensible in some moral sense, it's still legal, and you seem to not get how it's different from trying to shut down the peaceful transition of power after an election. That's NOT legal.
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Rock Defender [53]
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Re: Flow isn't defending Democrats.
Jan 6, 2022, 1:30 PM
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All-In [31896]
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To simplify, answer these questions....
Jan 6, 2022, 1:36 PM
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1) Does Congress have the power, under the Constitution, to set the number of Supreme Court justices?
2) Is breaking into the Capital to stop Congress from taking a vote illegal?
If your answer to both questions is yes, then this discussion is over and your comparison sucks.
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Rock Defender [53]
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Re: To simplify, answer these questions....
Jan 6, 2022, 1:41 PM
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All-In [31896]
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lol...ok***
Jan 6, 2022, 1:46 PM
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All-In [42170]
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Flow, Spoon... shame on y'all
Jan 6, 2022, 3:33 PM
[ in reply to To simplify, answer these questions.... ] |
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You fell into his classic trap (admittedly, I have before as well).
1. T3 doesn't like the criticism or topic at hand.
2. T3 posts something completely unrelated and off the wall and demands you attack it with the same enthusiasm that you're attacking the original topic.
3. When you don't or engage in a debate about his new points, he claims you're defending the bad guys and launches into personal attacks.
4. He wins because he has derailed the discussion that makes his side look bad. Which, make no mistake about it, the Capitol people are his side and he knows it makes him look really, really bad.
He slings red herring and straw men. It's best we call him on it and refuse to engage in the distraction.
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All-In [31896]
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Yeah, that one's on me....
Jan 6, 2022, 3:35 PM
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it had been a few weeks and I wasn't thinking clearly.
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Rock Defender [53]
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All-In [34108]
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Rock Defender [53]
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Dumb enough to follow me too I guess.***
Jan 6, 2022, 4:29 PM
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All-In [34108]
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Re: Flow isn't defending Democrats.
Jan 6, 2022, 3:29 PM
[ in reply to Re: Flow isn't defending Democrats. ] |
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You're trying to tell me that packing the court is legal and defensible but you're against it.
Yes.
So are you also arguing that the Garland thing was okay?
It was legal and defensible, as many people proved by defending it. Reasonable people differed over it. It was not an attack on our system of government. It was a tactic within the system.
Do you think either helps the state of politics today?
No, but I don't think that level of political tactics is new to this country.
As far as 1/6, the violence and property damage is illegal and wrong. That was committed by a few.
Correct, and also indefensible. Reasonable minds cannot disagree over whether voters for the losing candidate can, within the system, attempt to "stop the steal" by entering the Capitol during the count, threatening to murder the VP, pooping in the offices, stealing and destroying things, etc.
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All-In [31896]
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It's both amazing and predictable that you read my...
Jan 6, 2022, 1:46 PM
[ in reply to Re: Explain to me how Dems wanting to add more... ] |
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post and your takeaway was that I was defending democrats. geez
Again...I don't think the number of justices should be changed...and changing them would definitely not unify the country. Still not comparable to illegal actions to stop Congress from acting. Those are anti-democratic. Acting within the law/constitution cannot be considered to be anti-democratic...as a general statement.
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All-In [42170]
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I agree with much of what you said...
Nov 16, 2020, 5:27 PM
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But it seems you still believe it was an insurrection and a coup attempt.
Either way, whoever is responsible for it, that's what it was.
But what you described is definitely concerning. We have too many people in this nation who unknowingly crave fascism and were also never taught by their daddies that when you lose a competition, it doesn't mean the other side cheated. It means your side sucked.
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CU Guru [1515]
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Re: I agree with much of what you said...
Jan 6, 2022, 8:23 AM
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Well, I agree with most of what you said. What changed my mind was that it was unrealistic to think that this riot would have succeeded to the degree necessary to overthrow the government. More guns would have been needed to overcome the secret service protecting Pence. My conclusion on this was based on seeing the surrounding crowds reaction when A. Babbit was shot. They backed the hellll up and calmed down quite a bit. Imagine that. Also, in watching certain video's it was clear that there were still a lot of sane people in the overall crowd that got some people to back down, like when they pulled that cop down the stairs. I think if they had gotten to Pence and took him out to the gallows, that enough sane people could have snapped the insane ones out of it. Now, had the mob have seen Pelosi in a hallway, she was a dead duck on the spot.
Anyway, it was bad and you can gather who I feel is responsible for it and he is a POS. That's why I can't understand the continued support for said POS.
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All-TigerNet [13605]
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Re: I agree with much of what you said...
Jan 6, 2022, 8:31 AM
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This is how I've felt all along, alum.
The overwhelming majority of people there were peaceful, just as the overwhelming majority of protestors from 2019 were peaceful. I refuse to group them all together just as I refuse to group all protesters from 2019 in with the few bad actors. It sucks but there will always be a few bad apples where thousands are gathered.
Both sides of the aisle need to realize that.
Edited to say my years is mixed up. It was actually the protests of 2020 I'm referring to. I think that is obvious though when I say "but there will always be a few bad apples where thousands are gathered." I shouldn't have to quantify "always" with a year.
Message was edited by: Clemsonfan1851®
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All-In [46825]
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Now do the BLM protests***
Jan 6, 2022, 8:36 AM
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All-TigerNet [13605]
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Re: Now do the BLM protests***
Jan 6, 2022, 8:39 AM
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I just did.
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All-TigerNet [13605]
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Re: Now do the BLM protests***
Jan 6, 2022, 8:41 AM
[ in reply to Now do the BLM protests*** ] |
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Oops. 2019 was supposed to be 2020. I've forgotten its 2022 and in my mind I'm thinking those protests were 2019.
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All-In [42170]
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Re: I agree with much of what you said...
Jan 6, 2022, 8:59 AM
[ in reply to Re: I agree with much of what you said... ] |
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What changed my mind was that it was unrealistic to think that this riot would have succeeded to the degree necessary to overthrow the government. More guns would have been needed to overcome the secret service protecting Pence.
I agree here. I think the small minority who truly had sinister intentions made a costly gamble.
My conclusion on this was based on seeing the surrounding crowds reaction when A. Babbit was shot. They backed the hellll up and calmed down quite a bit.
Agreed; for a lot of them, it got real very fast. That proved they were mouth-breathing idiots who didn't understand what pawns they were.
Anyway, it was bad and you can gather who I feel is responsible for it and he is a POS. That's why I can't understand the continued support for said POS.
Every person in America should have denounced and disowned Trump after that day, but sadly, too many lack the integrity to do so. And secretly wanted Jan. 6 to succeed.
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Lot o points [155929]
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I don’t disagree with any of that
Jan 6, 2022, 8:59 AM
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So why are you arguing with me so much in the other thread when I’ve been saying for a year the same thing fluff said?
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CU Guru [1515]
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Re: I don’t disagree with any of that
Jan 6, 2022, 9:09 AM
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Because you asked the question "Why were the doors on one side of the capital opened by the police and protestors welcomed in to walk around and take pictures?". And I answered that question based on what I had heard on that specific issue. Simple
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Lot o points [155929]
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Re: I don’t disagree with any of that
Jan 6, 2022, 9:13 AM
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It’s possible to presume, without making excuses for anyone who participated that day, that there was a faction opposing Trump that wanted this to go down the way it did for, quite rightly, the stench it put on Trump. This just feels like it runs deeper on both sides, with both sides wanting what happened because they thought it helped their cause.
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CU Guru [1515]
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Re: I don’t disagree with any of that
Jan 6, 2022, 9:19 AM
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Possibly, but Trump doesn't need much help to make himself look bad. Can't get any worse with his actions from Nov 3rd to Jan 6th. The second part reminds me of when Dawghater says that all they do is shake the jar and get the ants to be pissed at each other.
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Oculus Spirit [93668]
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Just a guess...
Jan 6, 2022, 9:16 AM
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but perhaps Trump's approval rating is a similar as Biden's approval rating. Some say 'Well, he ain't Trump,' to justify their support for Joe. We know a Trump gained support because Hillary was his opponent. It's always been the lesser of the two evils for many Americans.
Maybe it's hard to believe that some people do not like our current situation. I'm not talking about those who constantly pound on Biden but those who complain about things they believe Biden has done or situations which he has neglected.
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All-In [42170]
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Without looking
Jan 6, 2022, 9:25 AM
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I do believe it is similar, and should be. Both have been terrible administrations. Trump was stooped on corruption and a goal to subvert democracy; Biden's is mired incompetency and too many grubby, power-hungry hands in the cookie jar while grandpa sleeps.
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Oculus Spirit [93668]
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I thought a little more of Joe...
Jan 6, 2022, 11:01 AM
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when it was published that my SS check would increase a significant bit. So it increased by X and my gov insurance premium increased by 80% of X. You'd think a first year POTUS would try a little harder to buy votes.
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