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Topic: Honestly, with Brownell
Replies: 38   Last Post: Feb 20, 2021, 4:45 PM by: clemzn1981
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Replies: 38  

Honestly, with Brownell

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Posted: Feb 16, 2021, 8:18 PM
 

He's been pretty good. We aren't a basketball school. Look at his record and then go look at places like BC and Wake in the last decade. You know how many winning seasons BC has since Brownell has been our coach? 1. Look, we aren't going to win a natty. But this isn't football. Being pretty good in basketball is okay with me. I want to make the dance more often, but man, look at other teams that just continuously have to keep making coaching changes because they are having losing seasons every year. Brownell is a good man, runs a clean program and normally has a winning record, plus recruiting is improving. It could be MUCH WORSE.

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Re: Honestly, with Brownell

[1]
Posted: Feb 16, 2021, 9:16 PM
 

Very reasonable post. We’re outperforming schools like Wake and Ga Tech that have much better basketball tradition than we do and have won 3 or 4 from blue blood UNC.

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Re: Honestly, with Brownell

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Posted: Feb 16, 2021, 10:04 PM
 

I totally agree and we have to admit we have been spoiled by the success of the football program. We have had past great success in soccer, golf and baseball and some in basketball and we should be proud of the whole athletic program. I may be wrong but we will never have the basketball teams that say Duke and UVA do but they have the 2 best coaches in the country. Give me exciting round ball and at least a winning team and we have that.

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Well, that's one school of thought

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Posted: Feb 16, 2021, 11:31 PM
 

With the much improved basketball facilities, many boosters believed the program would improve and become watchable with increased fan support.

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Re: Well, that's one school of thought

[2]
Posted: Feb 17, 2021, 10:24 AM
 

SocMan2® said:

With the much improved basketball facilities, many boosters believed the program would improve and become watchable with increased fan support.



And you are seeing just that. Have you been watching games or paying attention to our recruiting?

Our first recruiting class after the renovations were done was our best under Brownell.

The next one was even better and was ranked 4th in the ACC. Next years isn’t that great but still looks pretty good.

As far as gameplay is concerned, we are projected to be a 7 seed in the tourney

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It's like some of the whiners here don't even know

[2]
Posted: Feb 17, 2021, 3:19 PM
 

what is actually going on with the team. That, or they conveniently discard the facts so that they can continue to complain about Brownell and the basketball team without having to acknowledge reality.

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Cobbox on Brad Brownell: “His only problem is he has to deal with turd fans questioning every move he makes.”


I'm watching a Tournament team this year, what are YOU

[2]
Posted: Feb 17, 2021, 4:46 PM
 

watching?

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Age old question - to accept mediocrity or not?

[2]
Posted: Feb 16, 2021, 11:38 PM
 

I understand your post and the sentiment behind it.
Where you and I may differ is acceptance of always being middle of the pack or even mediocre.
Is it better to have spikes of really good and some bad lows - or finish year after year middle of the pack?
To measure against Wake or BC is a bit off of who I would measure against. Wake is a super small school, limited resources. BC has actually had some decent teams years ago.
Some act as though having a great football team is a hindrance. I consider it a positive. Clemson has much more exposure and is a household name (but not in basketball).
IMO, if you expect low, that is what you get. Do I ever believe Clemson would turn into Duke or UNC? Probably not. But 10 years ago - would you have answered a question of - would you believe Clemson football would be equal to Bama, OSU, and in the playoffs every year? Would you have said probably not?
I have said it before and will repeat it - generally, I don’t care who the coach is. As long as he/she does it right and plays an interesting game to watch, and is competitive for a ACC championship every few, and our expectation is to make the dance every year (sometimes coming up short) - then I am ok.
Now, the question is - do we currently have that coach? IMO - After 11 years and the ACC being the weakest I have ever seen it - and we still struggle to compete for regular season top 4 ACC - then I think we could use a change - a fresh start.
GT, VT, Miami, FSU, ND have all had flashes at the top - so why can’t we?
I am not a hater of CBB. I do disagree with not having an inside game when in a power conference - but I am a simple fan.
I see BC changing leadership. Does that mean they expect more? Aim higher than Clemson? Or was it something else?
I have enjoyed some of the wins this year, baffled by the big losses, and am pulling for a good ACC tourney and Getting invited to the big dance and seeing if we can stay in a while. Most every year a Cinderella pops into the final 8. Why not us?

Aim high. Maybe, just maybe!

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Re: Age old question - to accept mediocrity or not?


Posted: Feb 17, 2021, 1:30 PM
 

Loved this post Right on Brother Danny Ford used to say Why not us then he went out and proved it could be us We may not hover around the blue bloods all the time with their cheating but we can compete stronger than we have by getting into the NCCA tournament much more than Brad has done I’m still with Brad but it is up to the right coach to say why not us let’s not be intimidated by willams and Ray face WHY NOT US it’s now up to the coachn

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Okay, but here's my question:

[1]
Posted: Feb 17, 2021, 3:28 PM
 

Given this year's success, on top of our recent Sweet 16 run, improved facilities, and improved recruiting, why aren't you willing to consider the fact that Brownell might be the right coach?

It seems like you (and others) are completely disregarding or minimizing this year's success, and have already decided that he stinks and we need someone else. Why can't the positive momentum in our program right now be a harbinger of more great things to come?

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Cobbox on Brad Brownell: “His only problem is he has to deal with turd fans questioning every move he makes.”


Sweet16 in 2018>>>our 1 and only NCAA Tourney invite of the ephing decade<<<

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Posted: Feb 18, 2021, 4:57 AM
 

HTF?, recommend we throw everything we got + the kitchen sink behind the football program & an "immediate scorched earth policy": immediate shutdown & permanent closure to all other athletic programs-

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We also went to the NCAA Tournament in 2011


Posted: Feb 18, 2021, 7:07 AM
 

and are going this year also.

HTH

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Cobbox on Brad Brownell: “His only problem is he has to deal with turd fans questioning every move he makes.”


Re: Okay, but here's my question:


Posted: Feb 20, 2021, 4:45 PM
 

Answer to your question.
While we are in the middle of a solid year. Before you pick on that comment - Covid has turned everything upside down. So I take both wins and losses this year with a grain of salt. (See, Duke, Kentucky, etc) I also look at the ACC and have been shocked at how poor the basketball is compared to the past.
My problem is that many - are making two critical errors in currently judging our program. First - a snapshot is not a trend. You cannot judge anyone by a game or even a season. BB was hired spring 2010. 9 full seasons and when you review a program - you look at them in total. When he was hired, did we hire with the expectation that we would get to the dance a couple of times? Or did we hire with better in mind?
To review the data. Compare the prior 7 years to the full BB seasons.
Prior years:
2004 16-16
2005 19-13
2006 25-11
2007 24-9
2008 23-8
2009 21-10
2010 22-12
Average wins 21.4. Losses 11.3. Win percentage 65.5%

Now CBB tenure.
2011 16-15
2012 13-18
2013 23-13
2014 16-15
2015 17-14
2016 17-16
2017 25-10
2018 20-14
2019 16-15
Average wins 18.1. Losses 14.4. Win Percentage 55.6%. (Adding current year does not move the percentages much).

The second mistake (IMO), is judging from the heart and not the facts. Simply hoping that we have turned a corner is not enough. As they say - hope is not a strategy. The continued comment of “we are close to the great things”, can be fools gold.

If you wish to say that he has turned a corner, we can split the 9 years into 5 and 4.
First 5 - win percentage 53%
Last 4 - win percentage 58%
Better, but still 7% worse than the prior 7 years.

You speak of facilities - same one used in the pre BB days.
Improved recruiting - my problem is the baseline established. Are you speaking of improved recruiting during BB tenure or comparing to the 7 years prior?

Judge, we disagree on some things (especially your football comparisons), but that is ok. You make this personal. I look at it as a business. Like one of my facilities. I ask the questions and follow the metrics. Are we improved under anyone’s tenure? It is irrelevant if I like the person, believe in the person, or want the person to succeed. While those may make me lose sleep, I would do what I think is right and if that person is not getting the organization where it needs to go, then I must make a change. Clearly, I am not in charge, nor would I consider not donating the money I do if we don’t make a change, I am simply a Clemson fan that expects more after 9+. Could we get a new coach and get worse. Absolutely. But, in my mind, we have a large enough snapshot to say we know what we have, and it might be worth the risk of trying for better.
As the saying goes. “If you always do what you always did - you will always get what you always got”.

If we keep BB and we start winning ACC championships and go to the dance almost every year - great - I will be happy. My wish is not to get rid of a coach, it is to see Clemson compete on a much higher level.

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Re: Age old question - to accept mediocrity or not?


Posted: Feb 17, 2021, 10:40 PM
 

The goal of our program should be to be in the top 25 every year. The BOD, the Prez, and the AD need to state that and do whatever needs to be done to get us there. I am tired of accepting mediocrity in our bb program.
To my knowledge no one in a managing position has ever stated a goal. Have they? No wonder we are rudderless.
Let’s get going.

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Class of ‘71. Went through “rat season” and glad I did.


Re: Honestly, with Brownell

[2]
Posted: Feb 17, 2021, 6:11 AM
 

I really don't care how many winning seasons Boston College or Wake has had in the past decade. Today is all that matters, and with a team loaded with depth and talent, we should be more competitive. For crying out loud we lose by double digit's at Ga.Tech then need a bank shot to beat them at home. Tell me when Ga.Tech was last competitive in basketball.
And if North Carolina can improve in football, we should be able to improve in basketball.
Pretty good is one thing ,but if your definition of pretty good is 2 appearances in the Big Dance in 11 years I would hate to see your definition of great.
Oh and as far as recruiting goes, he does do a good job of recruiting athletes, but have you seen even one "All-American" Basketball player suiting up for Clemson recently?
And please don't tell me they all end up at Duke or UNC.

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Re: Honestly, with Brownell


Posted: Feb 17, 2021, 8:59 AM
 

leftie said:

I really don't care how many winning seasons Boston College or Wake has had in the past decade. Today is all that matters, and with a team loaded with depth and talent, we should be more competitive. For crying out loud we lose by double digit's at Ga.Tech then need a bank shot to beat them at home. Tell me when Ga.Tech was last competitive in basketball.
And if North Carolina can improve in football, we should be able to improve in basketball.
Pretty good is one thing ,but if your definition of pretty good is 2 appearances in the Big Dance in 11 years I would hate to see your definition of great.
Oh and as far as recruiting goes, he does do a good job of recruiting athletes, but have you seen even one "All-American" Basketball player suiting up for Clemson recently?
And please don't tell me they all end up at Duke or UNC.


Yes, it was PJ Hall. I top 60 player by every recruiting service.
We also have 4 star and high 3 star recruits across the board on the roster that some power 5 schools wanted. With the right staff you win more consistent.
That is where I agree with the more consistent part. Never use another schools struggles as we could be as bad as them. How many ACC schools have spent as much money on facilities as we have in the last seven years? I still am not sold on Brad until he can prove he can make it to the NCAAT two years in row. Make it this year and, again next and I’ll be more convinced.

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Re: Honestly, with Brownell

[1]
Posted: Feb 17, 2021, 10:29 AM
 

Leftie doesn’t realize that GT is actually pretty dang good this year. Shouldn’t have lost to them by 18 but a loss is a loss. Quit crying

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Re: Honestly, with Brownell

[2]
Posted: Feb 17, 2021, 2:36 PM
 

Coots cry...it's just what they do.

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Re: Honestly, with Brownell


Posted: Feb 19, 2021, 10:01 PM
 

Well Mr. Know it all, if Tech is pretty dang good at 10-8 (6-6) and Clemson is 13-5(7-5) with 6 games postponed that I am aware of, then what are we ,chopped liver?
Please bring me more tissue.

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We are having a great year.

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Posted: Feb 17, 2021, 3:31 PM
 

You say that today is all that matters. Well, today we are a clear cut NCAA Tournament team.

Why do you keep ignoring what we are doing RIGHT NOW, THIS YEAR?

Stop talking about the past 11 years if you are all about today.

Stop talking about a game we lost last month, to a team we just beat, if you are all about today.

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Cobbox on Brad Brownell: “His only problem is he has to deal with turd fans questioning every move he makes.”


He doesn't care about WFU or BC's past performance, but

[1]
Posted: Feb 17, 2021, 4:51 PM
 

apparently he DOES care about GT's? Pick a lane guy

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Re: We are having a great year.


Posted: Feb 17, 2021, 7:48 PM
 

Judge I support Brad at this time and am very pleased with this season so far but we have not made the NCCA tournament yet As several
times over the past few years I hope this is trending up but if so it will be the first time

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Re: We are having a great year.


Posted: Feb 17, 2021, 8:25 PM
 

Anybody that went to Ga Tech game and paid attention would say Ga Tech is a pretty good team. How they lost to GA State and Mercer I have no idea. They have 4-5 players who could play anywhere.

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are you retarded?***


Posted: Feb 17, 2021, 4:48 PM
 



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Re: Honestly, with Brownell

[2]
Posted: Feb 17, 2021, 8:58 AM
 

Hope/expectations without a plan is called a dream. Simply cycling through coaches has been proven by other schools to be an expensive folly. The fortunes of our football team changed when we collectively decided to invest in the program. We build the finest facilities in the country, paid top dollar for coaches and hired a boatload of support staff. Yes we hired a great coach but had we not also invested my guess is Dabo would not be our coach today. So the question is how do we fund excellence in the basketball program? Lets say $25MM of facilities with an additional $4MM of annual costs?

Given many of our fans limit their support of the Bball program to whining about the coach instead of actually going to games and supporting the team what is the ROI of the investment?

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I have heard this "we're not a basketball school" crap my

[2]
Posted: Feb 17, 2021, 10:03 AM
 

whole life. It is the worst kind of self fulfilling prophesy. The only reason we don't have success in basketball is because we are evidently content not to. There is no credible reason why Clemson University should not be able to attract top basketball talent as well as top football talent. And top baseball talent while we're at it. All we need is someone in authority within the University to have the vision to make it happen.

But, as long as drones keep parroting "We're not a basketball school" over and over, they will most likely continue to be right.

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So what you're saying is...


Posted: Feb 17, 2021, 10:23 AM
 

...you're a glass half full kind of guy. :)

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Re: Honestly, with Brownell


Posted: Feb 17, 2021, 11:45 AM
 

I'm one of the people who said Brownell could have a lifetime contract if he won at UNC.

I meant it and still do.

People are overlooking that accomplishment and what it means to Clemson.

My goal for Clemson basketball is to regularly finish in the top half of the ACC, regularly challenge to make the NCAA tournament, and to be competitive in all conference games (meaning blowout losses should be rare).

I think Brownell can get us there.

I think there are times he has overperformed given the team's general lack of talent. I still don't think we have NBA talent on the roster and most teams in the ACC do.

I understand the fan frustration with losses that appear to be due to poor play and 5 minute long shooting slumps.

I also think if Brownell has significant success, like taking a team to the sweet 16, he's probably gone to a better job or a rebuilding job in the big 10.

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Re: Honestly, with Brownell

[1]
Posted: Feb 17, 2021, 4:30 PM
 

*Full disclosure I think the team is doing pretty well this year and I am looking forward to the ACC tourney and the NCAAs*

I dont think Brownell is a great coach and I dont think he is a terrible coach, I think he is somewhere in the vast grey area between. I do think that his offensive system is stale and boring but that could just be me. It reminds me of gene hackman wanting four passes before a shot. We just pass it around the perimeter and then jack up a three. After 11 years I think the athletic admin needs to take a serious look and say is it us or him that is preventing us from getting where we want to go. If competing every three to four years for a tourney invite is the goal then everything is going fine. If the goal is higher than that then is the admin giving him everything he needs or not. If they are not then what needs to be done to give it to him outside of the facility improvements. If they are and we have hit our ceiling then he needs to go.

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Exactly.


Posted: Feb 17, 2021, 4:48 PM
 

Clemson should give the head basketball coach everything needed to excel. PERIOD.

If they are, and the coach has been given ample opportunity to show what he can do, but he hasn't won at the level we expect, we need a new coach.

But if the administration hasn't given the head coach everything he needs, then the administration needs to do better.

My view is that the facility improvements and staff improvements a few years ago were essential, and long overdue. Now that those are in place, we are seeing what Brad can do with a somewhat more level playing field (although we are still playing catch up). I am encouraged by the results these last few years, and am especially glad to see what a good year we are having this year.

The best is yet to come!

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Cobbox on Brad Brownell: “His only problem is he has to deal with turd fans questioning every move he makes.”


Re: Honestly, with Brownell


Posted: Feb 18, 2021, 12:42 AM
 

I'm curious to know, with your "competing every 3 to 4 years" comment, which of the last four years you watched and didn't see a team playing with a chance to make the NCAA Tournament in the final week or two of the season. The last time we had NO shot at the tournament as of mid-February was a time when Jaron Blossomgame was on our roster, which was more than four seasons ago.

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Re: Honestly, with Brownell


Posted: Feb 18, 2021, 9:47 AM
 

Well just look at last year. For your middle of Feb. example, on Febuary 15th we beat a top 5 Lousiville.... to get our record to 13-12. If that is your definition of competing for the tourney then let me clarify mine to say a lock to make the tourney not the play in games in Dayton and not needing 2 or 3 wins in the ACC tourney to get an invite.

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Re: Honestly, with Brownell


Posted: Feb 18, 2021, 11:40 AM
 

Why don't you just expand your research a little bit to look at what the bubble situation looked like last year at or around that time?

Here's an article from March 2 that has us in the "next four out."

https://www.sbnation.com/college-basketball/2020/3/2/21161159/bracketology-2020-college-basketball-bracket-projection-seeds-bubble-kansas-ucla-texas-nc-state


Between the game you provided (Louisville) and that article, we beat Louisville, Boston College and Florida State, and we lost to Georgia Tech. We finished, after the article with losses against Virginia Tech and Georgia Tech, along with a win in the ACC Tournament against Miami. Clearly the point I'm trying to make is...the opportunities were there to compete to get in. We just (likely) didn't get enough wins, as was played, to get in. Who knows what would have happened had we beaten Florida State on the day the ACC Tournament was canceled? Had we done that and the NCAA Tournament not been canceled, we very well may have been in.

"Lock to make the tourney" is far different from "competing for an invite." Being a lock implies you no longer need to compete...that instead, you could lose out and still get in. But continue to plant and re-plant that flag wherever is needed to best fit your desired narrative.

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The only people that means anything to are UNC and Clemson..


Posted: Feb 17, 2021, 6:45 PM
 

fans. No one else.

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Brad Brownell: It could be worse.

[1]
Posted: Feb 17, 2021, 5:25 PM
 

I'll buy that.

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LMAO...So true***

[1]
Posted: Feb 17, 2021, 6:45 PM
 



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Re: Honestly, with Brownell

[2]
Posted: Feb 17, 2021, 6:09 PM
 

I agree with you 100%! Clemson made the right hire when we got him. Let me digress...Brad is tremendously respected by other coaches. He is straight up and goes by the rules. I’ll never forget the first time we played Duke, at Cameron, his first year. Duke won handily and, we did not have a lot of talent, but, after the game Coach K told the press “this guy can coach

I also want to mention that back when Bill Foster was our coach, I knew one of his assistants well. He said then, “Although we are in the ACC, we are in a small South Carolina town and it is hard to get a McDonald’’s All American to visit. High school seniors are allowed five official visits. The top players will all visit Duke, UNC, Kentucky and (at the time) UCLA.” There are 250 Division One schools so you have 246 schools fighting for that last visit..” he then went on to say that the only way we could get a five star is either he has to be from SC and grew up a Clemson fan, or he has to have strong Clemson connections.”

Dabo has spoiled us. He has done what most folks could not have done. He took on the biggies and out recruited them. But, he is an exception. I cannot understand what you Brad haters want.

This Board is full of Brownell haters, and theyall think they know more about basketballl than he does.

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Clearly you've reopened

[1]
Posted: Feb 17, 2021, 6:27 PM
 

the age-old Clemson "tallest midget" debate once again. This should stir JK's juices!

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He's a good coach and a good guy


Posted: Feb 18, 2021, 7:41 AM
 

All I want is a few more NCAAT trips. But we constantly out-perform our preseason ACC projections and finish middle of the pack most years rather than the bottom like others think we will. Top 8 in the league should be the minimum year in and year out. That gets us on the bubble for the tournament most years. I'm ok with that.

There's a lot of filth floating around in College Basketball these days. I think it means something to have a coach who is respected by his peers and runs a clean program. It could be a lot worse.

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